MU Discussion: Ike

[Christobelle]

So after a series of buffs with the recent patches, Ike has come out, in my opinion, in a really good spot competitively, & I struggle with the MU when the Ike is in the hands of a competent player. I played an Ike today that I just could not beat. It seemed like he had the perfect moves for every situation he was in, and many of them seemed extremely fast, intuitive, and virtually lagless. Am I wrong?

Here's what the Ike Boards have to say about their MU against us.

"B reverse tongue has good range for landing, but then again nair is also pretty devastating, and ground pound can potentially break weak shields. When he's above you, baiting ground pound by hanging out below him can lead to a spot dodge grab or f tilt, while being in the air can lead to fair/bair. Shielding dair with a full shield can net you a bair OoS or shield drop d tilt. And as for his b reverse tongue, run up spot dodge to dash grab is one of the few options that I feel works best, but if you spot dodge early you'll get egged. Also don't forget he can jump OoS and aerial in this game." - @xBlitz"

Here's the video of one of my *cough* better matches. (my 1'st vid, yay! Here to bettering the Yoshi meta.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o19S34AOkS4

I recognize my own mistakes heavily contributed to my loss, such as my over-use of air-dodges which lead to some great reads on his part, and messing up and egg-toss (why is egg-roll even a move?) here and there. My first stock was lost to an over-dedication to and egg-toss set-up. I was so sure that egg was gonna hit! Grr! My second stock went to a bad air-dodge. What did I do right? What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? Any constructive criticism of my match, & this particular CHARACTER match-up is GREATLY appreciated. Thank you!

 

[Fuerzo]

He can basically only recover pure horizontal or pure vertical, so try and edgeguard him in a way that kills both Aether and Quick Draw.

 

[muddykips]

watching the video, you were getting a lot of nice hits, like the utilt as he was trying to hit you with a falling nair, or bairing him while his upsmash was still starting up - but these were also really, really risky. you weren't respecting ike's moves enough, and although you won a few exchanges, the reward you got out of them were too little to offset what would have happened if ike's moves had hit you first. you gotta respect him!

ike still isn't quick enough to just run around and throw moves out on you, his moves still do have endlag on them, but one strength that he has is that his range makes it easy for him to catch you. i think we're all pretty spoiled when it comes to airdodges with our airspeed, but when you're fighting ike, you need to think more about what might happen if you do that. i think the two biggest things to look out for is that airdodging after his downthrow gives him a free uair on you (which can kill you), and airdodging as you're about to land can give him a free usmash on you (which can also kill you).

there's other "smaller" things that can catch your airdodges, like nair or fair, but all of ike's moves still hit pretty dang hard, and they need to be respected. ways to prevent ike from getting reads on you is to change your direction (b reverses), immediately drop down (downb to ledge), go high enough (save you doublejumps), or stall (upb in the air until you're safe; even sideb can stall you for a bit).

if you don't have the upper hand in a situation, you generally shouldn't try to regain it by attacking ike, or relying on eggs to make him flinch, because if it turns out you're wrong, you'll either be dead or hit for a good amount of %. basically, focus on getting back to neutral a majority of the time, but try not to airdodge too much.

 

[YoHeKing]

Alright. I want to git gud at explaining MUs.

Im going to look at some pros for both characters MU specific and not player specific.

Starting with yoshi.

• Faster then Ike both in air and on ground.
• Better frame data
• More options
• Only controllable projectile in the mu
• Good DI off of Ikes combo throws
• Able to punish all of ikes recovery options

Ikes pros

• Outbeats Yoshi when both of there attacks collide on hitbox
• Beats Yoshis double jump early
• Sword can cancel out projectile
• Able to punish most of yoshis recovery options.
• More powerfull

Now lets see the cons both characters fall under.

• They both have trouble landing near or above each other

Now Yoshis cons

• Shield >Sword> egg> nose in collision
• Sword from below outdos every thing we have. Falling and air dodging is even worst then throwing out an attack. Jump and up b gets you out of that situation
• Double jump breaks fast

Ikes cons.

• Ike is slower then Yoshi.
• All his recovery options can be covered
• More endlag

Reminder this has nothing to do with the players at all. Its just stuff you can't really make any better. I may have forgot something but please correct me.

So its normal to have more serious cons for yoshi in MUs. But clearly he has more and better pros in the MU.

Now if you noticed I put options yoshis pros is because he clearly has tons of options.

Yoshi just has more safe, punish, killing(uhhh maybe), OoS and playstyle options compared to ike. So he can mix up things much much better.

 

[muddykips]

...no, ike has more killing options. way more killing options. like, everything besides his throws are killing options.

they're all disjoints too, so the only truly "safe" thing yoshi has here are eggs, and only in neutral / if yoshi has the advantage.

how does yoshi cover all of ike's recovery options, by the way? i genuinely don't know.

 

[Delta-cod]

^Basically, Ike will have to start Quick Draw at a certain point. What you do is get close to him and force him to start charging/airdodge past you, then punish. Something like FH Fair after them > follow Nair might work. Egg Toss baiting could also work.

As far as landing in this MU is concerned, I highly recommend trying to shake Ike off of you EARLY. Don't try to B-reverse to switch him up right before you land. His Usmash is HUGE and it most likely WILL catch you. B-reverse high up, then Egg Toss as a stall if he's still on you, etc.

Don't be afraid to go for the ledge, we're better off coming horizontally than vertically. Our movement is more useful in that direction.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Ike can't autosweetspot the ledge with his up b, side b is fairly predictable and has to be started in advance. Eggs cover all of this.

@ YoHeKing "More options" is a pretty bad bullet point. You might what to go in depth on what options you're referring to or something. There's no meaning the way you put it down. :x

 

[YoHeKing]

...no, ike has more killing options. way more killing options. like, everything besides his throws are killing options.

they're all disjoints too, so the only truly "safe" thing yoshi has here are eggs, and only in neutral / if yoshi has the advantage.

how does yoshi cover all of ike's recovery options, by the way? i genuinely don't know.

Well yeah. Thats why I out "uh maybe" because unlike ike yoshi has actual setups for a kill.

Ike can't autosweetspot the ledge with his up b, side b is fairly predictable and has to be started in advance. Eggs cover all of this.

@ YoHeKing "More options" is a pretty bad bullet point. You might what to go in depth on what options you're referring to or something. There's no meaning the way you put it down. :x

Its pretty obvious. I didn't have enough time to explain and phone was dieing. I was trying to explain that but i just couldn't get it into words.
But yeah its pretty obvious. Ikes are more generic then yoshi. They have less mix ups and less options to punish or get in. Ill finish up what I was going to say later.

Edit: ikes disjoints have a long hitboxes and alot of lag. Its conpletly punishable. Its not even close to being 100% safe.

 

[muddykips]

not too sure you're giving ike enough credit. you're saying he has "less", and that he's more "generic", but the only generic thing i'm seeing here is your description. back it up, go into detail and tell us WHY it's "pretty obvious".

does he have SUBSTANTIALLY less? because while i'll agree we're quicker and can throw more stuff out, ike is able to beat these moves out, and doesn't need to land as many hits to get us to kill%. a good ike isn't just gonna throw out stuff in a punishable fashion, either. granted, he's still more punishable than us, but you're making him sound free.

...also, we have kill setups?

 

[Delta-cod]

Ike may be more "generic", but his generic options are strong. Low end lag Fair/Nair are very strong spacing tools in neutral.

We can get around them with egg pressure and shield, but these options might not be strictly punishable OOS. The best we might be able to manage is gaining stage control and closing the gap.

 

[YoHeKing]

Well I am giving ike enough credit. He beats everything besides sheild.

Nothing wrong with generic anyways. Generic just makes the MU knowledge usefull for most ike players. Sheik is pretty generic also. Js. I think non generic is better because you can switch things pretty fast. But the best fighters seem pretty easy and generic.

I also said
Sheild> sword> eggs> nose.

But yes we have kill setups. Plenty tbh but there not bread and bitter. I get the sarcasm btw xD

 

[Christobelle]

He can basically only recover pure horizontal or pure vertical, so try and edgeguard him in a way that kills both Aether and Quick Draw.

So focusing on getting him off-stage could be a great way to try to score a gimp/KO, keeping his recovery options in mind. Thank you for that point Sangre.

watching the video, you were getting a lot of nice hits, like the utilt as he was trying to hit you with a falling nair, or bairing him while his upsmash was still starting up - but these were also really, really risky. you weren't respecting ike's moves enough, and although you won a few exchanges, the reward you got out of them were too little to offset what would have happened if ike's moves had hit you first. you gotta respect him!

ike still isn't quick enough to just run around and throw moves out on you, his moves still do have endlag on them, but one strength that he has is that his range makes it easy for him to catch you. i think we're all pretty spoiled when it comes to airdodges with our airspeed, but when you're fighting ike, you need to think more about what might happen if you do that. i think the two biggest things to look out for is that airdodging after his downthrow gives him a free uair on you (which can kill you), and airdodging as you're about to land can give him a free usmash on you (which can also kill you).

there's other "smaller" things that can catch your airdodges, like nair or fair, but all of ike's moves still hit pretty dang hard, and they need to be respected. ways to prevent ike from getting reads on you is to change your direction (b reverses), immediately drop down (downb to ledge), go high enough (save you doublejumps), or stall (upb in the air until you're safe; even sideb can stall you for a bit).

if you don't have the upper hand in a situation, you generally shouldn't try to regain it by attacking ike, or relying on eggs to make him flinch, because if it turns out you're wrong, you'll either be dead or hit for a good amount of %. basically, focus on getting back to neutral a majority of the time, but try not to air-dodge too much.

Understood. I tend to be too aggressive. I need to only "throw out moves" to cover myself, instead of going for trades all the time, especially against characters with better ranged, and stronger moves, its almost never a good trade. Its great to get input like this because not only does it help me with Yoshi, it helps me improve as a player.

Also, I like the way you put the importance of maintaining the Neutral into perspective. I did feel safer every time I was near the ground. I need to work on mixing up my landings, especially against characters with such great aerials. Again, this helps a lot. Snapping the ledge with Down-B is a great mix-up for landing and I'll have to implement it more often, when feasible.

Alright. I want to git gud at explaining MUs.

Im going to look at some pros for both characters MU specific and not player specific.

Starting with yoshi.

• Faster then Ike both in air and on ground.
• Better frame data
• More options
• Only controllable projectile in the mu
• Good DI off of Ikes combo throws
• Able to punish all of ikes recovery options

Ikes pros

• Outbeats Yoshi when both of there attacks collide on hitbox
• Beats Yoshis double jump early
• Sword can cancel out projectile
• Able to punish most of yoshis recovery options.
• More powerfull

Now lets see the cons both characters fall under.

• They both have trouble landing near or above each other

Now Yoshis cons

• Shield >Sword> egg> nose in collision
• Sword from below outdos every thing we have. Falling and air dodging is even worst then throwing out an attack. Jump and up b gets you out of that situation
• Double jump breaks fast

Ikes cons.

• Ike is slower then Yoshi.
• All his recovery options can be covered
• More endlag

Reminder this has nothing to do with the players at all. Its just stuff you can't really make any better. I may have forgot something but please correct me.

So its normal to have more serious cons for yoshi in MUs. But clearly he has more and better pros in the MU.

Now if you noticed I put options yoshis pros is because he clearly has tons of options.

Yoshi just has more safe, punish, killing(uhhh maybe), OoS and playstyle options compared to ike. So he can mix up things much much better.

Can you explain this portion a little better? I'm not sure if I completely understand.

Now Yoshis cons

• Shield >Sword> egg> nose in collision
• Sword from below outdos every thing we have. Falling and air dodging is even worst then throwing out an attack. Jump and up b gets you out of that situation
• Double jump breaks fast

I understand everything else, and I really do appreciate that you took so much time to thoughtfully answer this Thread. You are a big contributor to the Yoshi Boards and every time I poke around for info., you're always there to give your best, so thanks man.

As far as OoS options go, I can see OoS Nair being pretty good against an aggressive Ike. I definitely could've gotten more use out of that than I did.

Other than this, I'm noticing that landing is really a problem in this MU so being cautious and reactive in the Neutral seems to be of the utmost importance, and so long as you keep your cool Yoshi is, seemingly, fast enough to out-match Ike. Covering his recoveries is something that I'll have to work on.

...no, ike has more killing options. way more killing options. like, everything besides his throws are killing options.

they're all disjoints too, so the only truly "safe" thing yoshi has here are eggs, and only in neutral / if yoshi has the advantage.

how does yoshi cover all of ike's recovery options, by the way? i genuinely don't know.

I also feel that over-looking the only projectile in this M-U is a mistake, Sliding egg-toss is pretty easy to Zone with against a slow-er character like Ike. His Side-B is incredibly fast, though, so Eggs do seem to be more of a way of covering Ike's approach options, baiting shields, causing hit-confirms, & just being generally annoying. lol

^Basically, Ike will have to start Quick Draw at a certain point. What you do is get close to him and force him to start charging/airdodge past you, then punish. Something like FH Fair after them > follow Nair might work. Egg Toss baiting could also work.

As far as landing in this MU is concerned, I highly recommend trying to shake Ike off of you EARLY. Don't try to B-reverse to switch him up right before you land. His Usmash is HUGE and it most likely WILL catch you. B-reverse high up, then Egg Toss as a stall if he's still on you, etc.

Don't be afraid to go for the ledge, we're better off coming horizontally than vertically. Our movement is more useful in that direction.

What do you mean by

Our movement is more useful in that direction.

?

I think I understand it as, landing above Ike is a Smash in the face waiting to happen, so recovering from his sides is safer, no?

Love your sig. btw lol. I think Yoshi IS fun!

Ike can't autosweetspot the ledge with his up b, side b is fairly predictable and has to be started in advance. Eggs cover all of this.

@ YoHeKing "More options" is a pretty bad bullet point. You might what to go in depth on what options you're referring to or something. There's no meaning the way you put it down. :x

Thanks for clearing up how to "cover" his recoveries a little bit. It makes sense, but still requires a little bit of a read, because Ike could Side-B onto the stage, or even come right for you, depending on where he's recovering from. Eggs are only so fast and they travel in an arc. Ike's Side-B is very, very fast, and it travels quite far.

~Thank you all for your input. Its nice to get so much feedback. I didn't expect 10 replies when I came home from work last night, haha! You guys are awesome. Let's keep pushing Yoshi in the right direction!

 

[Delta-cod]

What do you mean by [our movement is more useful in this (horizontal) direction] ?

I think I understand it as, landing above Ike is a Smash in the face waiting to happen, so recovering from his sides is safer, no?

It's really just an observation of our aerial tools.

We have no good options below us (Dair is bad for landing, nothing else reaches low), that makes vertical movement risky. We also don't have a super fast fall like Fox, for example, meaning that we can't just FF and Air Dodge past people easily. We're kinda floaty.

On the other hand, in the horizontal direction, we have access to our high horizontal air speed, eggs, Fair, Bair, Nair, and Egg Lay. These are all much better than trying to just Dair or air dodge past people.

Thus, our aerial movement is more useful when we're horizontal to our opponent rather than above him. This is why I advise, if you're really having trouble landing, going off stage (where Ike can't chase you from below), falling down to his level, then trying to reapproach the stage. I think it's really useful to keep this in mind as an option. You can even try using Down B to target the ledge from high up.

Love your sig. btw lol. I think Yoshi IS fun!

Hah, it's a remnant of my Brawl days where I used to time people out or otherwise have very long and fatiguing matches.

 

[Skitrel]

If you're above Ike he effectively gets anything for free. He outranges Yoshi's bair/fair. He outranges Yoshi's dair. He outranges Yoshi's downB. And he doesn't care about your eggs because he can fastfall to perfect shield against them with no consequence.

Ike fundamentally counters the majority of Yoshi's preferred gameplay.

The only effective strategy I've found for dealing with Ike is to bait him into approaching while Yoshi is retreating. This leads into very easy breversed egglays. Retreating breverse egglays seem to be the easiest/safest against Ike in the neutral.

Ike's that know this matchup will never let Yoshi return to the stage. He can take Yoshi's jump armour from as low as high 30s/low40s percent range. If you go off map against him then you better be prepared for it to be a very difficult recovery.

I put this in Ike's favour. It's one of Yoshi's hardest matchups at the higher levels. We don't get as many followups on Ike so we can't do percent damage to him as quickly as other opponents, combine this with Ike needing very few hits to put you in a kill threat position and it's heavily in his favour. If the Ike can deal with Yoshi's projectiles without sweating then they pick the Yoshi apart.

I find the idea of respecting him and playing patiently to also generally be a bad one. Ike players prefer to play slow and deliberately, picking their shots safely. It just gives them control of the fight even more to respect him..

My record against Ike lately isn't great, so he's somewhat in my head. Take this opinion as you will.

 

[Christobelle]

I'd be lying if I said the MU wasn't discouraging, and good Ike players are becoming more prevalent, but this is why just about every top player has a 2'ndary. Thanks for your input Skitrel. I pretty much agree 100 percent.

 

[YoHeKing]

... im mad. I wrote like a page long of explanations a new stuff to what I said including true combo setups on this MU and for each character and all non player mistake type of stuff...


Well ill rewrite it this week.

 

[Christobelle]

Sweet Ill be looking forward to that.

 

[YoHeKing]

Well... sadly I have to type it up on my phone. And my phone is crap so Im not going to cover all stuff yet.

Right now Im going to go over Yoshi pros.

Spoiler: Speed

Speed | Ike | Yoshi
Running speed |1.5|1.86
Air Speed |1.08|1.28
Fall Speed | 1.65|1.29
Fast Fall Speed | 2.64 |2.064
Walk Speed |0.869 |1.15

Clearly Yoshi is much faster in everything else then falling speed. Yet Ikes falling speed doesn't always help him and either does Yoshis.

Frame data:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ike
http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-frame-and-misc-data-thread-wip.391441/#post-20051592
Obviously Yoshi excels here.

The Projectile(up B):
Well we all know the egg helps a lot in this MU. We can simply retreat eggs and be safe. While the sword still can cancel out an egg the hitbox on the 2nd hit still stays the same so in alot of cases ike still gets hit. Canceling out eggs with a sword is completely on luck anyways. No Ike should be canceling eggs out on purpose over and over.

Good DI off throws:
We all know ike has some pretty cool down throw combos now but for some weird reason Ike cannot hit a Yoshi with good DI because of his floaty and fast air speed. From what I hear though if you DI wrong you can die pretty easily and early. In very very precise situations ike can combo off a yoshi and kill him even with the best DI but this is not something to worry about(ike needs like no rage and has to be stalled down throw or something like that).

Recovery options:
Obviously we CAN cover all of Ike's recovery options with eggs, up air, fair, nair, dair, and up smash. And if Yoshis grab does not have a hurtbox imagine the gimp possibilitys after grabing an ike through his up b. Ike is a fast faller so somehow yoshi can gimp ike extremely early(down tilt lol). IT shouldn't be easy to gimp a Ike anyways though and edge guarding normally involvs reads.

Recovering for Yoshi:
Well lets take a look at Ike for a second.

Ike has one of thee best edge guarding in the game. He can eliminate all of more then half the rosters recovery or options or most of them including Sheik, Rosalina, Luigi, and even Ness' or Lucas. (If you want me to go into detail then ask me)

Now lets look at how Yoshi recovers.

He has endless possibility getting back on stage but normally recovers high. Now he obviously has much higher speed then Ike in air so air dodging Ike's aerials are OK. Ike has some of the slowest and shortest jumps in the game making stages like duck hunt easy to time him out and Yoshi just can recover above him.

Yoshi should definitely be getting back to the stage unless its a player mistake or Yoshi is forced to recover low. Yoshi has them eggs to help though and Yoshi bomb under ledge.

Options:
I would prefer a computer for this one. So not now.



Now for Ike pros.

Shield>sword>egg>nose>grab in this MU AKA disjoints:
You should all know sword beats all of yoshis range and moves although you must keep in mind of the tongue(but still nobody challenges Ike's moves). Ike can out range Yoshi's down B, down air, Fair. He keeps Yoshi fighting for his way down to the ground. So Ike SHOULD be challenging Yoshis moves.

Ike is the true king of trades in this MU and Forces Yoshi to play differently.



Messing up Yoshi's landings:
Now Ike shouldn't be edge guarding Yoshi but what Ike can do is punish his landings pretty hard. If the ike gets a good read he hits you up without a double jump theres a good chance he could do it again. Up smash is Ike's best friend in this MU.

Killing power:
Now Ike really kills early. He really doesn't have any kill setups but what he does have is really powerfull moves. They should probably both be struggling for the kill but Ike will definitely kill Yoshi around 80% with a good read.


Its like if Ike kills the Yoshi first its hard to bring it back. But if the Yoshi kills the Ike first its hard for Ike to bring it back.


Edit: Ike may have less pros but his pros are really strong.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The Projectile(up B):
Well we all know the egg helps a lot in this MU. We can simply retreat eggs and be safe. While the sword still can cancel out an egg the hitbox on the 2nd hit still stays the same so in alot of cases ike still gets hit. Canceling out eggs with a sword is completely on luck anyways. No Ike should be canceling eggs out on purpose over and over.

This section is completely wrong. There's no luck to it at all and it's certainly not difficult, and hitting an egg from range means the 2nd hitbox wont be close enough to damage him. On top of that if attacks are strong enough they don't have to be disjointed to beat eggs out since they'll cancel both the 1st and 2nd hit, which happens to be all of Ike's aerials except nair. If he wants to cancel eggs with his sword he will.

 

[Fuerzo]

This section is completely wrong. There's no luck to it at all and it's certainly not difficult, and hitting an egg from range means the 2nd hitbox wont be close enough to damage him. On top of that if aerials are strong enough they don't have to be disjointed to beat eggs out since they'll cancel both the 1st and 2nd hit, which happens to be all of Ike's aerials except nair. If he wants to cancel eggs with his sword he will.

It's obviously not random, but now it sounds like the kind of thing that you can bait out.

 

[YoHeKing]

This section is completely wrong. There's no luck to it at all and it's certainly not difficult, and hitting an egg from range means the 2nd hitbox wont be close enough to damage him. On top of that if attacks are strong enough they don't have to be disjointed to beat eggs out since they'll cancel both the 1st and 2nd hit, which happens to be all of Ike's aerials except nair. If he wants to cancel eggs with his sword he will.

Yeah your right. I really didnt mean luck though. Its just one of those things ikes dont do because its pointless. You could just easily sheild or air dodge unless hes near the ground I guess.

Edit: the 2nd hit of the egg is not a projectile. Its just a hitbox and it sticks for a few frames so ike can actually cancel out the 1st hit but not the second hit. I probably need to explain myself more on this xD

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I'll elaborate on it myself. I was wrong! Sorta.. So here's what I just learned:

There was a situation that perplexed me for a bit because it didn't fit with what I knew about priority, which was, the 2nd hit of eggs would sometimes ignore the other hitbox and sometimes wouldn't. As far as priority type eggs fall into the projectile category for what they will collide with. That priority means they collide with grounded moves and aerial moves. I was having a hard time figuring out why I was getting different results from attacks in the same category but just figured it out! Grounded moves do not enter hitlag when they out prioritize a move. they cut through like it didn't exist. Aerials on the other hand will enter hitlag no matter what which means if the 1st hitbox collides with an aerial then the 2nd hitbox comes out while they're still in hitlag (which I guess means the aerial hitbox isn't allowed to collide with the 2nd hit!). This means that in order to beat it in the air you have to have some disjoint to your attack (like all of Ike's ), and it also means they can't drift into the 2nd hit because it's gone by the time they leave hitstun and is about the same size as the shell.

 

[YoHeKing]

Its ridiculous. The 2nd hit of the egg actually has no projectile property so if you hit foxs reflector with only the 2nd hit it actually hurts him.

I started studying his egg mechanics a few months ago after one of my eggs 0 to deathed a fox on the other team.

Basically what happened is Fox reflected a projectile that the mario reflected and it bounced back really fast and landed to the side of fox and 1 hit ko'd him at a really early percent.

The results... we got dq'd lmao.


But even if the fox possibly let go of the shine I tested it out anyways.

Also egg can cancel out all counters because it has two hitboxes on frame 1.

 

[muddykips]

Also egg can cancel out all counters because it has two hitboxes on frame 1.

oh wow, that makes sense. i've seen egg cancel a lot of counters (usually shulk's), but since i'm spoiled yoshi trash, i kinda just assumed all projectiles broke counters, lol.

speaking of, i really like reading counters with downb. even if you're too early, you'll still win the exchange...

 

[YoHeKing]

Its cool how much of a anti counter character yoshi is. The only other projectile I think is mii gunners custom down b which is a bomb. The 2nd hit on the bomb can be reflected though but it stays in the same place it exploded.

Yoshis eggs sometimes dont cancel out counters when you hit a small hitbox like there head sometimes. There feat and body rarely fail though.

but since i'm spoiled yoshi trash,

Uhm... "Yoshi Trash"?

Also the second hit of the egg does have a bigger hitbox. Its little notable but its not like a big increase. Ike CAN actually disjoint the first hit of the egg and get hit by the second hit if he doesnt hit the egg in slightly above the middle of the sword or the tip as hes moving torwards the egg(Edit: what even was this sentence)

Also a question. Is yoshis back air a type of disjoint. I notice that not all of his tail has a hitbox kinda like his tongue.

 

[Lukingordex]

I believe Yoshi wins the MU because Ike suffers TOO MUCH when he's above us. And unlike the majority of characters in the game he doesn't dominate us in neutral that much, mostly because we have the ground and air mobility. Don't sleep on him though, mess up your spacing and you're in big trouble.

 

[YoHeKing]

I believe Yoshi wins the MU because Ike suffers TOO MUCH when he's above us. And unlike the majority of characters in the game he doesn't dominate us in neutral that much, mostly because we have the ground and air mobility. Don't sleep on him though, mess up your spacing and you're in big trouble.

Probably in really high level play or perfect play. But smash4 is mostly about mind games. I truely think this MU is even.

I remember fighting a offline Ike but I dont remember struggling at all against him and 2-0d him in pools but he got further up in the tourney. But then again I had to play a ditto and PR 2... a marth main.
Edit: he really didnt seem that good. Im not saying the MU is in yoshis favor anyways.