MU Discussion: Bayonetta

[Skitrel]

I figured we should get this started, at least for major observations at this point in time.

Major observation 1: If our nair triggers witch time she can't hit us with a smash attack, her smash attacks clash/neutralise when colliding with nair.

Fun stuff. Their reaction as they learn this right now is priceless.

EDIT: I should have titled this "MU Discussion" really, poor form by me.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I played a good so far one last night and these are a few things I noticed...

Bayonetta has better 'priority' (?) in the air, it seems. She beats Yoshi's F-air with speed and other moves with unfavorable trades. Yoshi's D-air doesn't eat up her Up-air on decent like against some characters, but trades unfavorably. The same can be said for B-air. I think she has intangibility on her legs when their flying all over the place. Getting in with N-air is tough because while she is tall, she is very lean.

The only option against Bayonetta with Yoshi in decent seems to dodging and DI'ing perfectly until you hit the ground. I was having zero success in the air so it seems the MU requires Yoshi to play well on the ground. Yoshi suffers from not having a significant grounded multi-hit move. D-air is Yoshi's best grounded air attack since it doesn't get witch timed.

The guns with hit-stun are awkward for Yoshi to deal with. I imagine some characters can run right up to her but Yoshi is too tall. He can dash attack under them only at a certain distance (like far enough to get the weak hit, but not the 9%. I've also tried Egg-Roll and crawling D-tilt, but those don't seem to be optimal solutions. Run up > DJ Armor > fastfall F-air might also work, but I'm not aware of the frame data involved in the exchange.

Bayonetta can play like a witch and spin around with her non-hitstun guns and run away. While you have to approach, it should be a cautious approach. Egg-Lay is good for being safe against witch time, but it can't be spammed because it's easy to punish.

So I only know about FD, but I'd say the MU is one where Yoshi is forced on the defensive, but also has to deal with passive projectile damage so he can't camp the whole match. Walk around and shield her attacks, dash in for a hit when she's exposed. Hit her 10 times with dash punishes then find a way to kill her.

Bayonetta has a dirty combo game, but Yoshi's DJ might give Yoshi enough of an edge for it to be a fair MU, but you have to play a really calculated and technical play-style backed by crazy reads to win.

 

[Skitrel]

The guns with hit-stun are awkward for Yoshi to deal with. I imagine some characters can run right up to her but Yoshi is too tall. He can dash attack under them only at a certain distance (like far enough to get the weak hit, but not the 9%. I've also tried Egg-Roll and crawling D-tilt, but those don't seem to be optimal solutions. Run up > DJ Armor > fastfall F-air might also work, but I'm not aware of the frame data involved in the exchange.

I find a well placed egg to be most efficient here so far. We'll see how Bayo players adapt, but currently I'm of the mindset that her approaching us is better than vice versa, she has a lot of good retreating tools and can throw out damage while running away with guns.

Her general gameplay frame in my experience seems to be to force a mistake by irritating the opponent then to start up her combos. Her combo gameplay is excellent but she has to put some work in to start them against an intelligent opponent that doesn't just give her an easy grounded sideB or obvious fair.

As usual I think we've got a DI advantage over the rest of the cast when it comes to her combos, and the typical super armour double jump appears to break a lot. Still some issues with bread and butter though.

Nair is safer than airdodging in many cases where she might try to bait an airdodge for an easy smash attack thanks to nair caring about her smash attacks at all. I find this property really weird but I'm not complaining, I'd be quite interested to know if this is an issue Bayo suffers with other sex-kick nairs.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

That's good advice. I forget about eggs sometimes, after all the perfect shields it can be frustrating to keep tossing them. Persistence is key I suppose, it's just too easy for her to slide under them though.

Speaking of which, what good is all of Yoshi's movement speed wif other characters have high priority attacks with pre-baked motion that are twice as fast? Very frustrating.

I also figured out that OoS > FH > AD > F-air is the right way to counter the bullet spam. Don't know what I was thinking trying to DJ armor through it when FH > AD > F-air does it better and faster.

 

[Fuerzo]

This is definitely a matchup where, while being mindful of the bullet arts slowly racking up damage, we should play defensively. Abuse eggs and shield heavily (since she has a mediocre grab game).

 

[James Richardson]

Egg lay and throw are useful for preventing the counter and are helpful for set ups. Everyone has been freaking out about her being "OP" but I think the match up is very doable perhaps.

 

[Delta-cod]

I've watched Nairo play around with her during one of his streams, and it looks like the things to watch out for are the slide kick on the ground (Side B?) and Witch Time (counter). Her frame data otherwise doesn't seem too oppressive, so I think all we really need to do is be cautious with regard to these combo starters.

Side B is VERY punishable on shield. For the counter, you just have to bait it. Not much else you can do, really. If you can bait and punish it a couple times, it'll scare them off using it frequently in the future.

I don't think she has strong approaches, so perhaps taking a more defensive approach to the MU is the way to go.

 

[Baconbasket]

Thanks for your guys' advice! I found Egg Throwing right on top of you or right in front you helping my defensive play immensely against Bayo. Also after throwing an egg on top of you, I usually shielded and either Jab or Utilt to deal some damage. That's just what's been working for me, but you guys seem to have some stuff down, too!