Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

[ToonKake]

i kno all there is to kno bout sonic but theres just one thing i havent been able to jot down & dat is spin JUmp -.-

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Spin Jump: the attack that happens when you press a button while in Spin Roll mode.

• during Spin Dash Roll: Spin Dash Jump;
• during Spin Charge Roll: Spin Charge Jump.

 

[Camalange]

i kno all there is to kno bout sonic

ooooooooo

but theres just one thing i havent been able to jot down & dat is spin JUmp -.-

mhm, mhm

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Thinking on a new project and I thought it would be nice if we could kind of crowdsource this because this is too much time consuming for one person.

I'm going to start making a table of percentages about when the Dair spiking setups start working, when it is a guaranteed kill setup and when it just won't work anymore (not considering DI, of course).

• Training mode;
• Final Destination (more stages would be nice, but it's just too much work IMO);
• Setups to test:
  • SD->SDR->SDJ->Footstool->Dair
  • SC->SCR->SCJ->Dair
  • SC->SCR->SCJ->Footstool->Dair
• Followups (if it doesn't outright KO or if the opponent can still grab the ledge and recover) are: double jump+Bair (stage spike), footstool (both forward and backward);
• SD and SC charges should be increased accordingly to the enemy's percentage;
• The Bair followup depends on how the Dair hit the opponent. It's way easier to make it connect if the Dair hit over the enemy (i.e.: you end up farther from the stage whereas the opponent is nearer it) rather than under (you end up nearer the stage and the enemy, farther). This should only be a factor in the Bair followup for the SC sans FS setup, methinks;
• Always reset before trying a new percentage.

There's also the quickcharge HA to aerial followup but that's totally risky, so I don't think we should add it to the list at all.

Basically, SC setup works at longer distances from the ledge, SD setup works at mid distances and SC+FS setup works at short distances.

Results should look kinda like this:

| Starts Working | Works Reliably | Kills | Stops Working
SD setup | Bair: 20%; FS: 37% | Bair: 29% | Can't recover: 36%; KO: 67% | 100%
SC setup | Bair (over): 25%; Bair (under): 31%; FS: 41% | Bair (over): 28%; Bair (under): 34% | Can't recover: 41%; KO: 76% | 86%
SC+FS setup | Bair: 32%; FS: 41% | Bair: 33% | Can't recover: 29%; KO: 62% | 151%

Spoiler: Code

[table=head]

CHARACTER | Starts Working | Works Reliably | Kills | Stops Working
SD setup | Bair: %; FS: % | Bair: % | Can't recover: %; KO: % | %
SC setup | Bair (over): %; Bair (under): %; FS: % | Bair (over): %; Bair (under): % | Can't recover: %; KO: % | %
SC+FS setup | Bair: %; FS: % | Bair: % | Can't recover: %; KO: % | %
[/table]

Obviously, we could trim some of the results, since they kind of overlap and we could end up with a cleaner list, but I think we should have the entire data just for meteor kicks.

And, of course, this is something that we should hold off this until the nerf Mewtwo patch arrives..

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

If you need assistance with dair spike %'s i can help as i've been practicing it for well over a few months

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Yep, that's the idea lol

If everyone (5+) picks one character per week we could be done with this within like 2 or 3 months..

 

[Gregory2590]

You sure you wanna crowdsource info now when we may or may not get hit by a buff/nerf in the coming week?

 

[Camalange]

Hm, that's a fair point.

Might want to wait until that ****storm blows over.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

But I.. clearly stated so in that last paragraph..

 

[cerealkiller]

I thought Sakurai said they were done, regarding game balance... Are they really considering nerf/buffs?

 

[Camalange]

But I.. clearly stated so in that last paragraph..

Wow, I literally read all up until the last sentence lmao.

gg wp my b

I thought Sakurai said they were done, regarding game balance... Are they really considering nerf/buffs?

Sakurai says a lot of things.

And they're not considering. It's confirmed that a balance patch is coming with Mewtwo. Announced during the Direct.

EDIT:

It was a bit hard to do this when holding my phone between my legs and playing, but I managed to get it.

The spawn of the spring makes them warp to you.

I have yet to confirm if it works with Megaman as well, considering Rush doesn't last as long.

Edit: It's very strict timing. I'm sure there's only a 1 frame window.

Following up on this discussion. Just finished my tutorial video on this glitch.

I don't want to come off as spammy (posted this in the video archive as well) but felt it should be here as well for documenting purposes.

Should I include it in the OP of my guide as well? Might be too niche to warrant a section in the FAQ.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I think the opponent's height sometimes is higher simply because they'll always get the ground Spring height as opposed to Sonic who either get the ground or the aerial Spring height.

tw;du: opponent's Spring height is constant while Sonic's is variable

Great vid, nonetheless!

About where to post the vid: I guess I could make an "AT" section and simply put the videos there, in this thread.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

now we just need a video explaining BSBS......and why it's terrible.

 

[Camalange]

I think the opponent's height sometimes is higher simply because they'll always get the ground Spring height as opposed to Sonic who either get the ground or the aerial Spring height.

tw;du: opponent's Spring height is constant while Sonic's is variable

Great vid, nonetheless!

Ah D:

I tried figuring it out and asked for help and that was the best I could come up with… I think you may be right though. Thanks! Glad you liked it.

About where to post the vid: I guess I could make an "AT" section and simply put the videos there, in this thread.

That could be useful. I know people like the visual aid because just being told about a thing through text is confusing and there's no real point of reference.

Not every AT needs an in-depth video, but maybe we could try making GIFs or things like that? Just thinking it out.

now we just need a video explaining BSBS......and why it's terrible.

I think I was going to leave this one to Orochi since he's better at explaining it than myself… But we also flirted over the idea of a collab, but I totally agree that this is something that needs to be broken down and presented to the public.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

then theres the stupid item toss bug where if we throw an item just before landing after using up- b we lose our double jump entirely and go into special fall after jumping, using HA, or anything that causes us to go airborne except getting hit. this was in brawl but i guess they never noticed it.....and then theres the floating spin dash/charge. if you hit an opponent at low % with an uncharged SC near the edge and roll off sonic just floats. to do it with SD just hit someone during the hop near the edge and turn around and go off the ledge.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

We can pretty much rest assured that there will be another (un)balancing patch whenever Lucas is released, so if we hope to get it patched then we should try to get it done within that interval.

Spoiler

inb4 BSBS4lyfe

Guess I'll finally start working on something more substantial (tutorial video-wise) after the Mewtwo patch.

then theres the stupid item toss bug where if we throw an item just before landing after using up- b we lose our double jump entirely and go into special fall after jumping, using HA, or anything that causes us to go airborne except getting hit. this was in brawl but i guess they never noticed it.....and then theres the floating spin dash/charge. if you hit an opponent at low % with an uncharged SC near the edge and roll off sonic just floats. to do it with SD just hit someone during the hop near the edge and turn around and go off the ledge.

Huh, never noticed that item toss bug in Brawl. Does it still happen in Sm4sh?

Floating = immobile Lyric Roll near the edge? I don't think that's too much of an issue tbh.

On a side note: it does irk me that sometimes I seem to jump with the A button whenever I try to do an aerial after running off an edge and I have no idea why it happens.

 

[Gregory2590]

On a side note: it does irk me that sometimes I seem to jump with the A button whenever I try to do an aerial after running off an edge and I have no idea why it happens.

Maybe the game thinks you triggered a very much so guaranteed spin**** without the trajectory? Though, this only happens when I roll of the edge. It's a pretty damn annoying situation for whenever i flub a VSDJ at the edge.Yes, i'm aware that i and o are next to each other, but that wasn't a typo.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

We could totally call whiffed Spinshots that.

But, no, that's not the case: I mean running off the edge and not rolling. It happens just like that: run->fall->press direction+A for an aerial->wtf jump

edit:

then theres the stupid item toss bug where if we throw an item just before landing after using up- b we lose our double jump entirely and go into special fall after jumping, using HA, or anything that causes us to go airborne except getting hit. this was in brawl but i guess they never noticed it.....

Oh wow, this **** is still in indeed. Chalk one more up to the dev team for really knowing how to debug Sonic.

Funny how we can SD, SDJ, double jump and then go into freefall state..

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Okay, list of characters that can be spiked RELIABLY after a footstool:


Can be spiked but with some timing/positioning required:
Timing (delay):
Positioning (FS backwards):

Don't seem to be able to be spiked at all:


Poor Little Mac.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

atleast we can footstool dair spike pikachu and sheik.

 

[cerealkiller]

@ Sonic Orochi how exactly do you practice/test this move? And do you do it off the ledge?

 

[ToonKake]

Im actuaally HAppy to see a LOT of Sonic Mains on here together we ARE THE FREEDOM FIGHTERS !!!

 

[Gregory2590]

I take it it's time to revive the "footstool dair" project that Orochi proposed earlier in this thread?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

@ Sonic Orochi how exactly do you practice/test this move? And do you do it off the ledge?

Pretty much, yeah. For this list I set the percentage to around 20~30% and used SD->SDJ->FS->Dair. Always off stage to ensure it was indeed spiking (and where we should be doing it in the first place anyway).

I take it it's time to revive the "footstool dair" project that Orochi proposed earlier in this thread?

Yes, but since the list of "perfect combo-able" characters is so small, I think I'll be able to do it by myself, so I'll come up with the data AND the tutorial video later in the next few months.. I hope

 

[Gregory2590]

Yes, but since the list of "perfect combo-able" characters is so small, I think I'll be able to do it by myself, so I'll come up with the data AND the tutorial video later in the next few months.. I hope

data AND the tutorial video later in the next few months.. I hope

later in the next few months.. I hope

few months.. I hope

months.. I hope

months

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Hey, that could mean only 1 month!

Or five.

 

[Camalange]

Hm, I need to decide on what to to do for my next video too :o

I hate being such a perfectionist. I feel like I need to update the Spinshot video now because of the patch. Also, I left out Pac in my warp glitch…

I might try doing less strict tutorial videos and just showcase things in other ways. Hm...

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I'm thinking of tackling BSBS first and then the Dair spike setup.

Dunno if there's enough material for a guide like my SSBB one.

 

[Camalange]

Yeah, I personally think we should hold off on such a huge guide.

I mean, just think about what this patch alone changed for us. Imagine if we released one already? Oof.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Yeah, that's what we get for Sonic being actually decent this time around: nerf patches.

 

[Jords2Good]

I'm actually unaware of footstool to dair spike, that actually works!?! I may have to try it out. I'm quite used to footstooling them after hitting them with the spin charge or spin dash but I never thought dair spike would work from the footstool, does anyone have footage of it? Since sharing functionality is now up maybe you can send a replay?

I usually I use down b and spin charge jump them and then dair them. It was not to difficult to do but you better hope you got your double jump on because of that stupid SC/SD shenanigans that doesn't give your double jump back even when landing on the ground.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

It def. works.

It's not difficult, just try it out on Mario at 20%: SD->SDR->SDJ->FS->Dair

 

[J.APS]

spiking? oh YEAH!
I made a "guide" before the patch, It seems that the values are pretty similar.
The jump and the recovery abilities of the characters are very influential, characters with similar full recovery (2° jump+UpB) like Mario are "spike-ables" with 30% of damage (they can recovery, but cannot reach the ledge).
In that case...the patch doesn't make any diferences.
The video is sub-english (sorry for that) hope you like it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOxMtk5Giig

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I wonder where you got the inspiration for some parts of your vid lol

Hey, I want to know something: were we able to jump cancel into a ground Spring pre-patch? I never tried it, so..

Spoiler

Anyway, short hop->air dodge->Uair1->foxtrot chase->jump cancel ground Spring->Uair

Also: ASD->double jump cancel->full charge HA

Try it and see if it's good enough to be used in a real match.

 

[J.APS]

I wonder where you got the inspiration for some parts of your vid lol

Hey, I want to know something: were we able to jump cancel into a ground Spring pre-patch? I never tried it, so..

Spoiler

Anyway, short hop->air dodge->Uair1->foxtrot chase->jump cancel ground Spring->Uair

Also: ASD->double jump cancel->full charge HA

Try it and see if it's good enough to be used in a real match.

I'm not pretty sure about the jump cancel to ground Spring....(not remember lol)

that 1° combo...I need to test if it really works... (the landing lag of air dodge of the short hope got reduced?)

something that I do before the patch was:
ASD-> HA (short/full charge, it depends)
SDJ/SCJ ->HA (short/full charge, it depends)
SS -> HA (short/full charge, it depends)
^-mostly used for projectiles, works A LOT with Megaman's side smash
Talking about HA, It doesn't lock anymore luma in WiiU (in 3DS before patch locked luma sometimes, in WiiU was like..always)

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Short hop then airdodge and then Uair after the airdodge ends. Only Uair1 will come out.

 

[Camalange]

Orochi, to be honest, I'm not quite sure what you're asking or saying.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Orochi, to be honest, I'm not quite sure what you're asking or saying.

Guess I should try to record that, right? lol Just a sec.

 

[J.APS]

Short hop then airdodge and then Uair after the airdodge ends. Only Uair1 will come out.

Got it, but seriously, I'm not sure if this "combo" will connect.... but that part of GSpring to Uair....I'm pretty sure it will miss, at least your opponent get confused...
It will take time between the finish of the Utilt, the foxtrot and the spring....It feels predictable...

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Here:

Spoiler

http://gfycat.com/HardtofindNaughtyDegu
http://gfycat.com/VeneratedPointlessBug