Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

Sonic Orochi · Oct 3, 2014

Time to step it up.

In-depth Guide on S4nic's Moveset

08/25/15 - BSBS Flowchart added
04/16/15 - Added 1.0.6 ~~nerfs~~ changes and tweaked the Spin Moves section
04/15/15 - Added a list of characters for the footstool->dair spike setup.
03/26/15 - More SDJ and SCJ differences.
03/06/15 - Added the link for the ledge shenanigans spreadsheet on the Quick Reference section.
02/24/15 - Updated frame data.
12/13/14 - I will now log the changes (lol); added the Aerial Spin Dash Roll and Circle Roll to the Spin Moves section (and the Custom Moves section).

Normal Moves
- Standard Attack
- Running Attack
- Tilts
  - Forward Tilt
  - Up Tilt
  - Down Tilt
- Smash Attacks
  - Forward Smash
  - Up Smash
  - Down Smash
- Aerial Attacks
  - Neutral Air
  - Forward Air
  - Back Air
  - Up Air
  - Down Air
- Grab
  - Pummel
  - Forward Throw
  - Back Throw
  - Up Throw
  - Down Throw
Special Moves
- Homing Attack
- Spin Dash
- Spring Jump
- Spin Charge
- Spin Moves
The BSBS Mechanic
- Spin Dash/Charge Roll Shenanigans (a.k.a.: why you keep SDing when using Side B and Down B)
- BSBS Flowchart
Custom Moves
- Neutral B
  - Stomp
  - Surprise Attack
- Side B
  - Hammer Spin Dash
  - Burning Spin Dash
- Up B
  - Double Spring
  - Springing Headbutt
- Down B
  - Auto-Spin Charge
  - Gravitational Charge
Quick Reference
- Sonic's reliable kill moves
- Sonic's most damaging moves
- Best quick damage output combo
- Sonic's Ledge Shenanigans
- Custom Moves Summary
- Dair spike after a Footstool

Standard and Running Attacks

Standard Attack

The famous PPK (punch-punch-kick). It's a simple jab combo that, unfortunately, doesn't have a multihit variation.

Move Specs - Jab Combo |

As per usual with jabs, it's extremely fast, so it's alright to use it for a quick punish;
Depending on your opponent's damage, you may try to only use one or two punches and then following up with a tilt attack.

Running Attack

/

Sonic rolls forward, hitting enemies on his way, bringing them with him and then he finishes the move with a kick that sends opponents flying upwards.

Move Specs - Running Attack |

Damage (fresh) | 1%, 1%, 1%, 3%
Frame Data | Hits on frame... 1% hits: 5~15; 3% hit: 17~20
| Hitboxes end on frame 21
Other info | Can be delayed (use it after a Foxtrot )

The very first hit of the move has a somewhat decent pushing ability, regardless of the enemy's percentage. Using it to edgeguard opponents close to the edge is quite interesting (although difficult due to the new ledge snapping mechanic);
[CHANGE] This move is now a multihit attack instead of single;
[CHANGE] Apparently, we don't have a functional DACUS (Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash) anymore;

Tilts

Forward Tilt

Dubbed the "horse kick", it consists of a two-hit attack that has both speed and range.

Move Specs - Forward Tilt |

Damage (fresh) | 4%, 7%
Frame Data | Hits on frame... First hit: 6; Second hit: 8
| Hitboxes end on frame... 12
Other info | Can be angled up/down

A quick move that can potentially kill. Try using it after a shielded SCR (Spin Charge Roll) has come to a full stop.

Up Tilt

A double kick that hits two times (finally)! Lots of vertical range but almost no horizontal range.

Move Specs - Up Tilt |

Damage (fresh) | 2%, 6%
Frame Data | Hits on frame... First hit: 7~8; Second hit: 18
| Hitboxes end on frame... 20

Very limited use mainly due to its lack of horizontal range.
[CHANGE] It now hits twice instead of thrice;

Down Tilt

A sweep kick that sends opponents sideways (disregard the picture lol). If used up close, it will send them towards your back!

Move Specs - Down Tilt |

This move can make your opponent trip! Be ready for that followup read and punish accordingly.
[CHANGE] Doesn't send the opponents upwards anymore;
[CHANGE] Doesn't move you forward as much;

Smashes

Forward Smash /

The windup punch is back and is stronger than ever! It's one of Sonic's main kill moves.

Move Specs - Forward Smash |

You can use it as a finisher (as it's one of Sonic's strongest moves) and as a damage racker (one of Sonic's most damaging moves). Just be aware of not making it stale by overusing it.

Up Smash /

Sonic jumps while spinning, trapping nearby opponents into the move and then sending them upwards fiercefully. Another one of Sonic's main kill moves.

Move Specs - Up Smash |

[CHANGE] Due to the lack of DACUS, we lost a very good tool for reliably landing this move, however, the changes to SDI kind of makes up for that.
[CHANGE] Being much stronger this time around, this move is now a reliable kill move;
[CHANGE] Sonic's voice clip for this is WORSER now;

Down Smash /

The down Smash was totally remade. It is now a split kick similar to Fox's and Falco's, covering both sides of Sonic at the same time.

Move Specs - Down Smash |

Damage (fresh) | 12% to 16%
Frame Data | Hits on frame 12
| Hitboxes end on frame 14
| Can be charged on frame 6

Possibly better than Forward Smash for edgeguarding, due to its hitboxes coming out faster (frame 12 vs frame 18). However, it does pack a lot less punch, though (pun intended);
[CHANGE] Everything: it's a brand new move now!;

Aerial Attacks

Neutral Air

Sonic spins in place, creating a hitbox all around him.

Move Specs - Neutral Air |

Damage (fresh) | 12% (initial hit), 8% (right after starting), 5% (mid to end of the move's duration)
Frame Data | Hits on frame... 6~9 (strong hit); 10~19 (medium hit); 20~38 (weak hit)
| Hitboxes end on frame 39
| Landing lag transition starts on frame 1
| Landing lag transition ends on frame 48
| Landing lag ends on frame 16

Apparently unchanged from Brawl, although it seems a bit more powerful this time around. Try using it if the opponent air dodges an Uair.

Forward Air

Sonic does a horizontal spinning headbutt attack that hits multiple times.

Move Specs - Forward Air |

Damage (fresh) | 4x 1%, 1x 0%, 3% (7% total)
Frame Data |Hits on frame... 5 (weak hits); 15 (strong hit)
| Hitboxes end on frame 16
| Landing lag transition starts on frame 3
| Landing lag transition ends on frame 34
| Landing lag ends on frame 26
Other info | The "empty hit" (0%) is random: it can be either the very first hit or the second to last (before the 3% one).

[CHANGE] The recovery time on this move was increased, making it NOT recommended anymore for cancelling the momentum when using the Spring;

Back Air

Sonic does a strong aerial back kick, great for edgeguarding. Another one of Sonic's kill moves.

Move Specs - Back Air |

Albeit its onstage usage was toned down due to the atrocious landing lag, it's still useful for edgeguarding;
Extremely powerful move but with extremely terrible landing lag. Use it sparingly and make the most out of it's great launching capabilities;
[CHANGE] This time, the move seems to always send the opponents backwards, even when using an "advancing Bair";
[CHANGE] Landing lag was greatly increased;

Up Air

Sonic's infamous "scissor kick". An upwards double kick that hits twice and send enemies towards the ceiling of the stage.

Move Specs - Up Air |

[CHANGE] The move seems faster now;
[CHANGE] The hitbox on the first hit (around Sonic) was reduced;

Down Air

The awesome dive kick is back and with a new property: it now has a meteor effect!

Move Specs - Down Air |

Try using it after a SDR to SDJ for a cool meteor setup. Use SCR to SCJ at higher percentages, though;
Never, ever, try to use it at stage height: you won't be able to recover (and if it's an Omega stage, you'll die even before the move ends);
[CHANGE] IT SPIKES;
[CHANGE] The initial hit doesn't send the opponents sideways anymore: they'll go upwards as usual;
[CHANGE] Autocancelling it is a bit trickier now due to the Spring nerf;

Grab

Grab / Dash Grab / Pivot Grab

Move Specs - Grab |

Frame Data | Hits on frame... 6~7 (grab); 10~11 (dash and pivot grab)
| Enables transition on frame... 8 (grab); 12 (dash and pivot grab)

Pummel

Pummeling with Sonic is definitely good.

Move Specs - Pummel |

Damage (fresh) | 2%
Frame Data | Hits on frame 4
| Hitboxes end on frame 5
| Enables transition on frame 16

Forward Throw

The forward throw is now a kill move!

Move Specs - Forward Throw |

Damage (fresh) | 1%, 6% (7% total)
Frame Data | Hits on frame... 1~9 (1%); 10~11 (6%)
| Hitboxes end on frame 12

This is our fastest throw. If you have to get rid of the opponent quickly due to some incoming potential danger (stage hazards, bombs, etc), use this;
[CHANGE] This move is now much stronger and can actually kill opponents at high percentages;

Back Throw

It's back! And way more awesome than before!

Move Specs - Back Throw |

Damage (fresh) | 7%
Frame Data |Hits on frame 1~2
| Hitboxes end on frame 3

~~Extremely powerful move and, if properly spaced, can kill at relatively low percentages.~~ Use a running turnaround grab (run past opponent, press grab and then immediately tilt the analog stick back) in order to get the most out of this move;
[CHANGE] This move is now much stronger and can actually kill opponents at high percentages;

Up Throw

Unfortunately, this move's been nerfed quite hard.

Move Specs - Up Throw |

Damage (fresh) | 1%, 5% (6% total)
Frame Data | Hits on frame... 1~21 (5%); 22~27 (1%)
| Hitboxes end on frame 28

Even though the move was nerfed (hard), we can still do a ground Spring->Uair followup at around 50~60% and single hop->Spring->Uair at 80~90%;
If the opponent likes to airdodge as soon as you Spring towards him, next time Spring a bit higher, wait for the airdodge to end and then hit him with the Uair;
Even if your Uair gets air dodged, you can still try to followup with Nair;
After going after the opponent with a ground Spring setup, you can Dair onto the Spring, come up with another Uair, double jump Uair and Spring Uair. Pretty awesome and will most definitely net you a kill;
[CHANGE] This move is now much weaker and cannot actually kill opponents at decent percentages anymore. It's actually weaker than Fthrow now. Also, its damage has been reduced quite a lot;
[CHANGE] At lower percentages, the move seems to send enemies way higher than before, which kind of kills its main usage in Brawl which was to set up aerial juggling. Add the nerfed Spring to the equation and now we don't have an Uthrow as awesome as before;

Down Throw

Down Throw is just as you remember.

Move Specs - Down Throw |

Damage (fresh) | 1%, 1%, 1%, 4% (7% total)
Frame Data | Hits on frame... 1~17 (4%); 18~41 (1%)
| Hitboxes end on frame 42

As far as I can tell (without precise frame data), the move seems to be exactly the same from Brawl (yes, that includes the possibility of the enemy teching right after it);

Homing Attack

The Homing Attack. It's now a somewhat reliable kill move.

Move Specs - Homing Attack |

Damage (fresh) | 5% (quick cancel/charge)~12% (no cancel/full charge)
Frame Data | N/A
Other info | The move's knockback is directly proportional to its damage (and, thus, its charge)

Try using it after an ASC, guaranteed hit if you're frame perfect (even with the full charge);
[CHANGE] The lock on system has changed;
[CHANGE] No more HA spamming: you can only use it once without landing;
[CHANGE] The knockback direction depends exclusively on the direction Sonic's facing when using the HA. Therefore, B-reversing will allow you to "switch places" with your opponent;
[CHANGE] It has a pretty good KO power now;
[CHANGE] You'll now fall like a rock if you use it in the air and it doesn't lock on;
[CHANGE] Although it may seem that it's way better than Brawl's, actually it's just because it packs a better punch than before and has better maneuverability when hitting a shield;
~~[CHANGE] The HA now targets some projectiles such as Dedede's Gordos and DHD's can. This may render the attack pretty much useless in some cases~~;

Spin Dash

The Spin Dash is back and while it retains most of it's old properties, it also has changed drastically.

Move Specs - Spin Dash |

Damage (fresh) | 5% (hop/aerial version), 7% (roll initial hit), 6~7% (roll), 4~6% (roll sweetspot), 3% (jump), 7% (roll off a platform)
Frame Data | N/A
Other info | Damage output of the roll depends on its speed and not necessarily its charge;
| The roll sweetspot activates right before the roll finishes and it seems to be dependant on the opponent's weight. i.e.: it will almost always occur when hitting a Metal enemy. However, it does seem to work on everyone when they're at 0% (even Jigglypuff). The easiest way to pull this one off is by using an uncharged SD at around side tilt distance. Its damage does vary but I don't know how exactly to control it
| Sonic is invincible during the hop's first frames

While charging it, if you want to keep your charge while jumping, use the jump button (VSDJ). If you wanna do an old-school VSDJ (now VSJ) you can just use the attack button instead. Do keep in mind that you will NOT be charging the move during this jump (even though it will look like it);
You can't release the SD during the VSDJ. Actually, you can't really do anything at all during this jump aside from landing (or getting hit or falling off stage);
You can still shield cancel the SD that didn't go a full stop (you know, how it goes back while charging). You can also do it with VSDJ as well, as long as you shield when you hit the ground before it goes back all the way (it only goes back on the ground, so if you keep jumping around, you'll be able to shield cancel whenever);
We now have this new technique: instant SDJ. Basically: you run, activate SD and then press the attack button at the right time while still holding forward. We can also do an instant SDJ when reversing the SD, which, depending on the timing of the reversal, can lead to a pivot ISDJ (SDJ to the opposite direction of the run) or a reversal ISDJ (SDJ in the direction of the run, but jumping backwards);
[CHANGE] The run->SD->shield cancel has potentially more range now, due to Sonic's increased sliding distance;
[CHANGE] The hop goes at a different angle now and when used in the air, you'll go down much faster than before;
[CHANGE] It is now possible to short hop after a SD or ASC. Timing is kinda strict: you have to tap jump as soon as you hit the ground. The jump from the ASC goes higher than the one from SD. This jump is actually affected by momentum: if you release a SD/SC high up in the air and steer it backwards, the short hop will go backwards as well. You can also short hop the SD's "charge jump" (although you'll have to do a full hop before doing your first short hop). Also, slope cancelling is now only possible when doing this short hop;

Spring Jump

Spring: still awesome but not as awesome.

Move Specs - Spring Jump |

Damage (fresh) | 4%
Frame Data | Enables forward ledge grabs on frame 8 (?)
Other info | There's a window of invincibility right after Sonic hits the Spring (a bit after the move starts)

[3DS] We still have Momentum Cancelling with the Spring but I'd recommend against using it with Fair: you won't be able to grab the ledge if you're a tad below it due to Fair's new recovery time. Use either Uair, Bair, Nair or aerial dodging for that (emphasis on the dodge, as it is way better than any other option);
[WIIU] In the Wii U version, you should never, EVER, try to cancel the momentum if you know that you'll be only reaching the stage height with the Spring. The best move that we have for it is the Bair and even then it cuts our vertical recovery by a LOT. Then trying to cancel for maximum horizontal distance, air dodging still seems to be the best option so far;
Don't use Momentum Cancelling if you're too low to reach the ledge;
[CHANGE] You can still wall jump after the Spring, but not with the jump button: you have to press the direction away from the wall (pretty stupid change, IMO). Since it's quite common to try to steer Sonic's trajectory after using a Spring, be EXTREMELY CAREFUL not to wall jump after a Spring because our wall jump is just too powerful and you'll most likely not be able to grab the edge after wall jumping away from it;
[CHANGE] Using a Spring that's been planted on the ground restores your double jump;
[CHANGE] The Spring's launch height has been nerfed. For instance, you can't recover from a walk off Dair anymore;
[CHANGE] It is possible for an opponent to use the aerial Spring alongside Sonic. It can potentially lead to an Uair KO, but it's so sudden that you'll have to be prepared for it beforehand;

Spin Charge

Spin Charge, Spin Dash... What's the difference?!

Move Specs - Spin Charge |

Damage (fresh) | 1% (upon release); 2% (roll - per hit), 4% (roll sweetspot), 3% (aerial version ), 6% (jump)
Frame Data | N/A
Other info | Damage output of the roll depends on its speed and not necessarily its charge;
| The roll sweetspot activates right before the roll finishes and it seems to be dependant on the opponent's weight. i.e.: it will almost always occur when hitting a Metal enemy. However, it does seem to work on everyone when they're at 0% (even Jigglypuff). The easiest way to pull this one off is by using an uncharged SC at around a full hop distance. Its damage does not seem to vary (unlike SD's)

If you're using this move and it gets shielded, don't panic: turnaround and hit their shields again. You should come to a full stop after hitting the shield this second time. Now try a Ftilt!;
[CHANGE] The roll now is multihit instead of a single one;
[CHANGE] We can't shield cancel an aerial Spin Charge anymore;
[CHANGE] It is now possible to short hop after a SD or ASC. Timing is kinda strict: you have to tap jump as soon as you hit the ground. The jump from the ASC goes higher than the one from SD. This jump is actually affected by momentum: if you release a SD/SC high up in the air and steer it backwards, the short hop will go backwards as well. You can also short hop the SD's "charge jump" (although you'll have to do a full hop before doing your first short hop). Also, slope cancelling is now only possible when doing this short hop;

Spin Moves

There are some moves that can be done either from the Spin Dash (side B) or the Spin Charge (down B). Even though they might look the same, they don't always act the same!
When charging the SD/SC and pressing the attack button or the jump button (only with SC), you'll do the Vertical Spin Jump (VSJ). This move, as its name implies, is a vertical jump with an active hitbox. Unlike Brawl, if you hit an enemy with this, they'll be sent the same direction that Sonic's facing;
- Another trait of the VSJ is that its front part is a little bit stronger than the back part. It's a very tiny, minimal difference but it's there;
- Pressing the jump button while charging a SD will result in a Vertical Spin Dash Jump (VSDJ), which is basically a jump while still charging the SD (although it will NOT be actually charging). You can't do anything when jumping with this other than steering it around;
The rolls you transition into after releasing the SD or the SC look similar but are quite different!
- The roll from SD is the Spin Dash Roll (SDR). It is a stronger singlehit move;
- The roll from SC is the Spin Charge Roll (SCR). It is a weaker multihit move;
The jumps from the rolls look similar but are also different (albeit not much):
- The jump from SDR is the Spin Dash Jump (SDJ). It has a stronger knockback;
- The jump from SCR is the Spin Charge Jump (SCJ). It has a weaker knockback;
  - Using a grounded SC and immediately pressing up on the C-Stick will lead into an "almost instant" SCJ;
The aerial versions of the moves also look similar but act differently:
- The ASD is a singlehit move. It's actually just the Spin Dash Hop (SDH).
- The ASC is, as of 1.0.6, a singlehit move;
A roll that goes off a platform will transition into a new move:
- A SDR will become an Aerial Spin Dash Roll (ASDR). It's moderately strong and is also, as 1.0.6, a singlehit move;
- A SCR will become an ASC;
Both rolls can change, depending on their velocity, making Sonic transition into a circle shaped roll, instead of an oval one: the Lyric Roll (LR)
- So far, there's apparently no difference whatsoever between the SD and SC versions of the Lyric Roll, save for one little thing:
  - Trying to jump when in the LR state from a SCR (or simply from a slowed down SCR) will lead into a momentum afflicted VSJ and not a SCJ;
- The LR won't roll off an edge. However, if you hold forward, you'll be able to make it do so;
- When you enter the LR, if you hit back on the analog you'll turnaround. However, if you wait a little bit before pressing back, you'll be able to fully stop the roll by going into a skid;
Spinshotting can be done from both moves:
- For SD, you'll have to time an attack or jump press right after releasing the SD (the C-Stick can also be used but only if it's set to Attack instead of Smash);
- For SC, you only flick the C-Stick up/to the sides when charging it in midair;
- The ground version can only be done from SD;
- The aerial version can be done either from SD or SC;
About the horizontal distance of the Spin Jumps:
- SDJ horizontal distance depends a lot on its speed. Hitting the enemy with an uncharged SDR and then the SDJ will significantly shorten the jump's horizontal distance. At least about a halfway charge should be enough to get rid of the slow down;
- SCJ horizontal distance also depends on its speed but not by much. Hitting the enemy with an uncharged SCR and then the SCJ will also shorten its horizontal distance, but two SC charges should be enough to get rid of the slow down altogether;
- Because of this difference, the conclusion might be that it's easier to slow down a SDJ rather than a SCJ, but that's not always the case:
  - The SCJ will lose a lot of its horizontal distance should the SC hit the enemy/shield x times [x = number of charges. i.e.: 1 charge =>SCJ hit with no slowdown; 2 charges => 1 SC hit + SCJ hit with no slowdown];
  - This makes it easier to control the distance you want to travel with the SCJ: more SC hits, less distance and vice-versa;
  - The SDJ distance is harder to control due to its charging mechanics and the SD hitting only once.

Spin Dash/Charge Roll Shenanigans (a.k.a.: why you keep SDing when using Side B and Down B)

You can't double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ that derives from an aerial SD/SC, even if you release those on the ground (i.e.: start them on the air, land and then release them). You can, however, use HA, Spring, air dodge or any aerial to get out of the SDJ/SCJ animation. Also, you can still double jump if you had it available before the ASC/ASD, but only if the SDR/SCR runs off the platform;
If you shield cancel an aerial SD (or shield cancel a charge jump from an aerial SD), the game will consider any following SDR/SCR to be a SDR/SCR from a ASD/ASC: you won't be able to jump out of it;
if you fastfall a SDJ/SCJ and land without dodging or attacking, you'll lose the ability to double jump out of any subsequent SDJ/SCJ. No matter what you do, you'll have to jump and touch the ground again in order to regain your ability to double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ that allows double-jumping;
I've come to the conclusion that the reason behind this SDR shenanigans is due to a certain new mechanic that I'll explain further in the next few sentences. Sonic has two stances: normal, which is, well, your usual stance and Brawl Spring Bug stance (BSBS), which is when the game makes you unable to double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ (similar to how we were unable to double jump in Brawl after a Spring jump that met certain conditions);
- The BSBS basically means that you're standing on the ground but in a state in which the game thinks you're still in the aerial spin which came from an ASD or ASC. Therefore, any subsequent SDR/SCR you do while in this state will actually make that new, grounded SDR/SCR act like an aerial SDR/SCR (from an aerial Spin Special - SD or SC);
- However, that is not all. Fastfalling a SDJ/SCJ and doing nothing before landing will also trigger BSBS (fastfalling from greater heights so you can actually get out of the spinning animation before landing will not trigger BSBS, though);
- Also, if you don't have your double jump available AND enter BSBS, you won't even be able to double jump out of SD's hop;
- To add to that, if you fastfall a SDJ/SCJ while in BSBS, you'll definitely lose your double jump (even if you had it beforehand). Yep, jumping out of a SDR/SCR off the platform or out of SD's hop is just not going to happen;
- Some examples that end being straight up BSBS:
  - Fastfall while still spinning: SDJ/SCJ, VSDJ, SDSH;
  - ASD/ASC->land->full stop while on the ground;
  - ASD/ASC->land->SDR/SCR off the platform->land->...->full stop while on the ground (the SDR/SCR off the platform CAN be jump cancelled, but only if you had your double jump available before the ASD/ASC. However, when it touches the ground again, it's BSBS all over again);
  - SCASD (shield cancelled aerial Spin Dash);
  - SCVSDJ2AAASDTINRAIICSYCTDAVSDJ2 (shield cancelled vertical Spin Dash jump 2 after an aerial Spin Dash that is not released and is instead charged so you can then do a vertical Spin Dash jump 2);

Stomp

Move Specs - Stomp |

Damage (fresh) | 5%
Frame Data | N/A

Pros:

spikes;
does not send you down below as much as the Homing Attack when it doesn't lock on;
safest on shield (why would you use it on a grounded opponent is the real question, though);

Cons:

spiking effect is laughably weak (and no, charging it won't make a difference);
practically removes all the good stuff you can do with the Homing Attack while on the stage;
pretty damn horrible to set up for a spike kill (mostly due to its puny knockback);

Surprise Attack

Move Specs - Surprise Attack |

Damage (fresh) | 8%
Frame Data | N/A

Pros:

can be used for recovery (as little as you can get, but still..);
faster than the Homing Attack;
has the best lock on system;
safest when it misses;
no need to charge;

Cons:

terrible range;
awfully unsafe on hit, shield or not (you fall like a rock after the move and land with a LOT of lag);
weaker than the Homing Attack;

Hammer Spin Dash

Move Specs - Hammer Spin Dash |

Damage (fresh) | 5% (hop); SDR: 7% (start), 4% (after start), 3%; 6% (jump); 5% (ASDR)
Frame Data | N/A

Pros:

burying effect;
adds a neat property to SDR: you can stop it if you press back during the SDR from SD. For SC, you'll have to hold back before the SDR starts (not as great as ASCSC, but it's close. Plus, it adds more options during a grounded SC);
the hop is FAST and you can hit both on the ascent and the descent (in a single hop);
makes the ASC silent on release (lol);

Cons:

hop angle doesn't help as much with recovery like SD1's does (plus, the fact that you fall faster doesn't help much either);
slowest SDR;
fastest charge (a.k.a.: smaller window of time to shield cancel it);
removes a neat property of ASC: makes it lose its multihit ability;
removes all the good stuff you can do with Spin Dash up close (hop to aerial/footstool etc);
due to the new SDR property, you can't turnaround a SDR from SD with this move;
you can't Spinshot out of a single or double charge Spin Charge with the C-Stick when using this move: you'll need to tap the B button at least twice if you want the SS to happen;

Burning Spin Dash

Move Specs - Burning Spin Dash |

Damage (fresh) | 5% (release); SDR: 5% (start), 10~13% (up close), 8~12% (roll); 6% (jump); 13% (ASDR)
Frame Data | N/A

Pros:

FIYAH! (works even with ASC!);
fastest SDR, even uncharged;
stronger than the Spin Dash;

Cons:

no hop(e);
even though it's stronger, it doesn't mean much in the long run;
low SDJ means almost no followup at higher percentages (plus, it also means low SDJ for the SC, too);
aerial version has a terrible angle for recovery (it is probably even worse than the Hammer Spin Dash, due to not having a hop);
fire effect is just for show, apparently;
acts like a SDR from an aerial SD/SC: you can't jump out of the SDJ until the animation finishes..;
the lag when it hits a shield is terrible;

speed decrease of the SCR on hit (probably on shield as well) differs from SD to SD: the Spin Dash cuts most of the velocity, whereas the Hammer Spin Dash gives it almost no resistance whatsoever. This allows for extra hits with SCR when using the Hammer Spin Dash and maybe some other followup options;

Double Spring

Move Specs - Double Spring |

Damage (fresh) | 2% (per Spring)
Frame Data | Enables forward ledge grabs on frame 8
Other info | Minimal knockback and low height per Spring;

Pros:

uh, we can finally claim to have double Springed and prove it?
it may be used in team matches in order to "gimp" your teammates so they can recover better (lol);

Cons:

minimal gain in horizontal recovery;
height is pretty bad with just one use;
gives about the same height of aerial Spring Jump (yes, even if you use the first one on the ground);
the Spring does half the damage and has almost NO knockback whatsoever (it actually HELPS people to recover.. go figure);
you can't have two Springs out at the same time: once you start the second Up B, the first Spring disappears;
the Spring doesn't stick to the ground;

Springing Headbutt

Move Specs - Springing Headbutt |

Damage (fresh) | 4% (Spring); Headbutt: 3% (startup); 1% (peak) DAMAGE HAS CHANGED IN THE WII U VERSION - 4% (Spring); 3% (startup); 1% (mid); 7% (peak)
Frame Data | Hits on frame... 1~2 (startup); 3~9 (mid); 10~28 (peak)
| Hitboxes end on frame 29
| Enables forward ledge grabs on frame 8

Pros:

uh, hitbox? Yay?
~~can go higher than any other Spring variation;~~ NOPE, sorry, not anymore please understand;
can potentially cover more horizontal distance than any other Spring variation;
it may be used in team matches in order to "gimp" your teammates so they can recover better (lol);

Cons:

~~when not hitting anyone during startup: less height than the Spring Jump, more height than the Double Spring (not that it means much);~~ doesn't matter whether you hit someone or not;
[3DS] the Headbutt deals a measly 3% up close and a laughable 1% at peak;
[WIIU] at the peak the Headbutt deals 7%. Still not enough to compensate from lower height and more cooldown;
you can't attack out of it as fast as you can from the Spring Jump;
~~in order to get the full height/horizontal distance you'll need to hit someone during the initial frames of the move, which~~ is really risky, impractical and stupid; (no more increased height but the move is still risky, impractical and stupid)
the Spring doesn't stick to the ground;

Auto-Spin Charge

Move Specs - Auto-Spin Charge |

Damage (fresh) | 1% (upon release); 2~3% (roll - per hit), 4% (roll sweetspot), 3% (aerial version - per hit), 6% (jump)
Frame Data | N/A

Pros:

you don't need to tap B to charge (i.e.: you won't SDJ by accident when releasing a fast-charged SC);

Cons

you won't be able to charge as fast as you can manually with the Spin Charge;

Gravitational Charge

Move Specs - Gravitational Charge |

Damage (fresh) | 1% (upon release); 2~3% (roll - per hit), 4% (roll sweetspot), 3% (aerial version - per hit), 6% (jump)
Frame Data | N/A

Pros:

wind is kinda cool (pun intended);
will probably have a better use with Spinshot (chase with a reverse jump then Gravitational Charge to "edgeguard" and then Spinshot to Bair when they get past you);

Cons:

gives us a new visual effect and SFX so it's easier to differentiate from SD, for example;

Sonic's reliable kill moves:

Forward Smash;
Up Smash;
Up air;
Back throw;
Back air (edgeguarding);

Sonic's not-so-reliable kill moves:

Homing Attack;
Back air (on stage);
Forward throw;
Dair (meteor smash);
Down Smash;

Sonic's most damaging moves:

Fully charged Forward and Up Smashes (19%);
Fully charged Down Smash (16%);
Uncharged Forward and Up Smashes, sweetspotted Bair (14%);
Uncharged Down Smash, sweetspotted Nair, full charge Homing Attack (12%);
Forward tilt (11%)

Best quick damage output combo:

uncharged Spin Dash Hop (5%) -> Spin Dash Roll (6%) -> SDR sweetspot (6% - usually 4%, though) -> Spin Dash Jump (6%) = 23%
1. sweetspotted Bair followup: +14% = 37%
2. sweetspotted Nair followup: +12% = 35%
3. Uair followup: +9% = 32%
  1. Spring to sweetspotted Bair followup: +14% = 46%
  2. Spring to sweetspotted Nair followup: +12% = 44%
  3. Spring to Uair followup: +9% = 41% (probably less, due to stale move negation)
  4. Spring to Fair followup: +7% = 39%
4. Dair followup: +8% = 31%
5. Fair followup: +7% = 30%
6. Spring followup: +4% = 27%

Sonic's Ledge Shenanigans:

First two columns are about Ledgesnap Vulnerability and the rest are about hitting a non-invincible opponent that's hanging onto the ledge.

http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Uhkpn1CRe0U_Ci-8I3JqmpBznUx2TRdCE_DYWxOLk3o/pubhtml
Custom Moves Summary:

Burning Spin Dash can give the ability to safely clash with stronger projectiles in exchange for no hop, limited follow-up potential and always being in BSBS when using it on the ground;
Double Spring can be used to save your partner if you happen to misspace a spring drop to restore Up B, in exchange for lower damage, knockback and recovery height;
Stomp can offer a consistent, weak spike in exchange for removing Homing Attack versatility and onstage usage;
Surprise Attack offers more safety if you miss an attack and speed of recovery in exchange for range, power, and increased lag;
Hammer Spin Dash offers burial with a huge leap in exchange for mobility and combo-ing out of the initial hop;
Springing Headbutt offers a weak hitbox in exchange for riskier play, little to no aerial follow up after its use and the Spring doesn't stick to the ground;
Auto-Spin Charge offers consistency of the Spin Charge in exchange for a lower charge speed and the loss of C-Stick Spinshotting;
Gravitational Charge offers a new different way of edge guarding and spacing in exchange for your moves being telegraphed due to changes in animation and sound.

Dair Spike after a Footstool

Characters that can be spiked RELIABLY after a footstool:
Can be spiked but with some timing/positioning required:
- Timing (delay):
- Positioning (FS backwards):
Don't seem to be able to be spiked at all:

Espy Rose · Oct 3, 2014

Your wording in the other thread confused me. So the only thng you can't do from an aerial spin after it lands is double jump? Regardless of your jump state before the spin?

Not the biggest loss. We can still aerial and special out of it, can't we? Saw people doing that on streams and replays. :applejack:

Sonic Orochi · Oct 3, 2014

Espy Rose said:
Your wording in the other thread confused me. So the only thng you can't do from an aerial spin after it lands is double jump? Regardless of your jump state before the spin?

Not the biggest loss. We can still aerial and special out of it, can't we? Saw people doing that on streams and replays.

Yep, that's pretty much it. I kinda think it's a big deal because we got nerfed in the recovery department already..

Espy Rose · Oct 3, 2014

Well, can you jump out of them before you hit the ground? :applejack:

Sonic Orochi · Oct 3, 2014

Yes. It's still pretty bad, though. Cuts our options after using an ASC/ASD by a lot.

Espy Rose · Oct 3, 2014

Well, if Brawl's anything to go by, it's not like anyone ever used those options. :applejack:

Sonic Orochi · Oct 3, 2014

Double jumping out of SDR after ASC/ASD? I sure as hell used a lot of that.

Camalange · Oct 3, 2014

Sonic Orochi said:
Double jumping out of SDR after ASC/ASD? I sure as hell used a lot of that.

Same.

That was the weirdest change about spindash for me. Pretty used to and interested in all the other changes but that one.

Scourge The Hedgehog · Oct 3, 2014

Is it wrong that I kill more with Up Smash than anything else?

Deleted member 245254 · Oct 3, 2014

Scourge The Hedgehog said:
Is it wrong that I kill more with Up Smash than anything else?

Bair.

Espy Rose · Oct 3, 2014

Don't listen to Zipzo. He doesn't understand. :applejack:

Deleted member 245254 · Oct 3, 2014

Espy Rose said:
Don't listen to Zipzo. He doesn't understand.

Understand what?

Espy Rose · Oct 3, 2014

Ah, to be young again...

:applejack:

Deleted member 245254 · Oct 3, 2014

Espy Rose said:
Ah, to be young again...

I'm older than you. I think I figured out what I don't understand and I think it's you.

Scourge The Hedgehog · Oct 3, 2014

Zipzo said:
Bair.

It was more of me pointing out that it is way more proficient at killing than I speculated. And how much fun it is to punish people who air dodge onto the stage with it. Hah.

Additionally I do not like how if you try to HA back to the stage you'll drop WAY too far down. You can still recover but it is just bleh to me. I love that you can still Tech Chase with his Down Throw though. Forward Throw kills around 130% depending on the weight of the character. So having a throw kill move is great news.

Kuraudo · Oct 3, 2014

Zipzo said:
I'm older than you. I think I figured out what I don't understand and I think it's you.

Zipzo, relax. Espy's a bit of a sarcastic guy at times but he's by no means a jerk. /met the guy at WHOBO 3/

Try not to take everything said too seriously. But on that note, if you don't know, Espy is one of the pioneers of Sonic players from Brawl and one of, if not the best Sonic main of North America. We'll all be sharing info together.

Also I'm pretty sure Espy just means young as in young to the scene. Not to go by your account date or anything, but yeah.

Scourge The Hedgehog · Oct 3, 2014

Kuraudo said:
Also I'm pretty sure Espy just means young as in young to the scene. Not to go by your account date or anything, but yeah.

This is exactly how I read it.

XLR8TION · Oct 3, 2014

Lol espy sarcastic? nah.

Kuraudo · Oct 3, 2014

XLR8TION said:
Lol espy sarcastic? nah.

I'm not the best with words sometimes. lol

Espy Rose · Oct 3, 2014

Hey Wedge, Sonic still have vincy frames on usmash? :applejack:

Deleted member 245254 · Oct 3, 2014

Kuraudo said:
Zipzo, relax. Espy's a bit of a sarcastic guy at times but he's by no means a jerk. /met the guy at WHOBO 3/

Try not to take everything said too seriously. But on that note, if you don't know, Espy is one of the pioneers of Sonic players from Brawl and one of, if not the best Sonic main of North America. We'll all be sharing info together.

Also I'm pretty sure Espy just means young as in young to the scene. Not to go by your account date or anything, but yeah.

Not new to the scene, you can't say you didn't go by my account date because you just did, and I know who Espy is. I didn't call him a jerk, I just said he was confusing.

Sarcasm from someone you don't know is always going to be difficult to interpret and it's never going to be the misinterpreters fault.

In any case since you went and put me on the spot randomly, whether he is a nice guy or not, I notice a lot that he is intent on correcting everyone in snarky ways which most people would find a bit pedantic. The type to say "You're wrong" without explaining any part of why. I tend not to understand those types of people, since especially for an experienced player, the goal should be to impart your wisdom, not demonstrate superiority by talking from a mountain top and being less than informative. Saying "Don't listen to Zipzo, he doesn't understand", would be a statement I would find 3 pence shy of a valuable shilling, and dare I say somewhat insulting, and I don't think you can always latch on to "its just sarcasm" as a free pass for sounding douchey. Certainly doesn't work with my boss.

Also, telling someone to "relax" has almost scientifically and objectively been proven to actually provoke more irritation in a majority of people, just some advice, as it's likely the worst word you can use if your actual intent is to calm a person in an argument.

Gregory2590 · Oct 3, 2014

Is it me or does Sonic's dash attack have very VERY slight spike properties? I don't know how to explain it but, on For Glory, a Shulk was trying to recover to the ledge, and i did a dash attack before he could grab on, and it sent him in a downwards angle. Was this in brawl? I don't remember.

Deleted member 245254 · Oct 3, 2014

Gregory2590 said:
Is it me or does Sonic's dash attack have very VERY slight spike properties? I don't know how to explain it but, on For Glory, a Shulk was trying to recover to the ledge, and i did a dash attack before he could grab on, and it sent him in a downwards angle. Was this in brawl? I don't remember.

It does seem to transfer a bit of momentum to your opponent in your direction when used on a characters upper-torso-ish hitbox (usually low-recovering characters).

B.A.M. · Oct 3, 2014

Brothers it is time; our land camping is ******** now lol. Speaking of interesting stuff, who likes that nair has more priority and combos into itself among other things?

Or that we can trip guard like crazy with our new dash attack?

Im loving how Sonic feels; I can hit someone with fair and not be punished lol. I will miss somethings such as ascsc though. Anyone mess with our dash? I was able to DDP and stuff but what weirded me out is after when u run back and forth sonics dash gets smaller. Charizard does the same thing with his screech stop although his own is better lol.

Any crazy findings besides our kill throw, the ledge snap up b, and the remocal of side b ledge snap ?

Sonic Orochi · Oct 3, 2014

You can still grab the ledge after a SD, although not automatically. Just press A or jump when near it.

Espy Rose · Oct 4, 2014

I'm trying to tinker with this thing where you only jump for half of your height after a sideB or downB. It's weird.

@Zipzo: Relax.
Truth be told though, I'm only being snarky to you. No one else.

:applejack:

Deleted member 245254 · Oct 4, 2014

Espy Rose said:
I'm trying to tinker with this thing where you only jump for half of your height after a sideB or downB. It's weird.

@Zipzo: Relax.
Truth be told though, I'm only being snarky to you. No one else.

Unfortunately for you this would be a falsehood, it isn't difficult to read what you post to other members aside from me. Unfortunately your constructive-side could use some work, occasionally.

It honestly matters not if you were a good Sonic player in Brawl. Personality counts in large amounts. For an extreme example, look at Leffen lately.

Whether it was just me or not still isn't a valid excuse. Now is the time to be welcoming to players of all ilk new and old. Especially with large influx of new players coming in lately, both to the game and more relevantly, to Sonic as a conversion from previous games.

Better yourself 101.

Espy Rose · Oct 4, 2014

I never said that it was an excuse, hombre.

RedrappeR · Oct 4, 2014

Zipzo said:
Unfortunately for you this would be a falsehood, it isn't difficult to read what you post to other members aside from me. Unfortunately your constructive-side could use some work, occasionally.

It honestly matters not if you were a good Sonic player in Brawl. Personality counts in large amounts. For an extreme example, look at Leffen lately.

Whether it was just me or not still isn't a valid excuse. Now is the time to be welcoming to players of all ilk new and old. Especially with large influx of new players coming in lately, both to the game and more relevantly, to Sonic as a conversion from previous games.

Better yourself 101.

This is the best way to be passive aggressive, and totally show a lack of maturity in all things at the same time.

I will tell you though that unlike Espy there's a good chance I'm much older than you are, and sincerely dude, on any level you're handling a conversation with someone on a message board in the worst way possible. You could've easily messaged him and resolved it there, but you had to bring it into the giant public view because, hey, you need everybody to see you don't take **** from no one. Which is great, and also unnecessary.

But if you want a sincere opinion, you got the game early, and you act a lot as if that gives you some insane and powerful license and automatic vindication into all things competitive, and that may not be in your intention, but that's how your coming off. Like somehow, because you jumped the release date you're wise old sage now. That's why people are annoyed with you.

Just take a step back and a deep breath. Yes, you totally should have a say in these conversations because you want to play this game, and I'm sure you're going to have something meaningful to add to the conversation. But also keep in mind, that for the next couple weeks reread your posts because, again, as positive as your intentions may be-- you're coming off like a ****.

or maybe it's just me. But, w/e. Also, it's probably a bad idea to get defensive after this post because you'll just be digging a hole. My .02 cents.

Espy Rose · Oct 4, 2014

You're right on the mark, Reddy. :applejack:

Late edit, but allow me to explain myself so Zipzo can understand something here. Understand, not agree with.

I've been following your posts and the like on the Smash 4 forums Zippy, and the only things I extract from your posts are arrogance, pretentiousness, and a sense of superiority as far as Smash knowledge goes. It's all just bizarre and unwelcome when considering that you just kinda showed up. I disagree with this next statement completely, but you gotta earn the privilege to be that way here. You've done nothing on the sort.

And even if you didn't just show up for Smash 4, I don't know you. I've been around the Smash community for almost 10 years now. I know names and faces and attitudes for each of the games, and have never heard of you. You're talking about mechanics and the like as a new face whom I've never even heard of, and through that, demand a high sense of command. It doesn't work that way. Not here.

It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't come off as nothing short of cocky/arrogant/pretentious, and as Reddy said, it's straight up annoying. There's a way one must carry themselves if respect, dignity, and integrity is what they want others to see in their posts. Being overly assertive doesn't do you any favors if that's your goal.

I've been around the block. I've experienced people who act and post just like you. Still do from time to time. I took part in plenty of discussions with other knowledgeable minds in the Brawl back rooms. It wears on you. You learn to stop giving a damn about what they have to say, to start believing only after seeing results or mass agreement amongst those with better understanding of the game. Seeing that kind of post sprout in here, a place much of the Brawl Sonic family assimilated to to have fun dissecting the game, ticks me off.

Brawl Sonics were crazy. Some pissy, some wacky, some hysterical, and a few critical on Sonic's mechanics. It all added up to an extremely enjoyable experience that helped evolve Sonic's meta. It was fine. We accepted each other despite those attitudes. KID Goggles and I would get at each others' throats all the time. Hell, X and I went through a ton of silly drama back then.

I'm not seeing that same sense of camaraderie or fun here (granted, the game just came out). Posts like ours just don't do this group justice. I'm here to investigate Sonic, to read about tech, and watch videos and discuss meta. But I'm also here to have fun doing it.

As for the whole teasing you bit. It's fun. It totally is. You're a complete stick in the mud, and I honestly don't mind if you continue to be from here on out. I just thought I'd let you know why I'm being so unwilling to elaborate for you.

If you ever wanna swap serious discussion, I'm all here and ready and willing. Otherwise, imma rail you over and over, because that's how Brawl Sonic do.

tl;dr:

=====

As an aside, I love all the new Sonics. I'm pretty excited to see if some fresh faces will be able to take Sonic strats in a different direction. Brawl Sonics have a bias towards their particular styles from that game. We're already artificially stunted. I wanna see what a blank slate can do. :applejack:

Frozn~ · Oct 4, 2014

Is it just me, or has Sonic's D-smash gotten worse? In Brawl it felt like a much safer move, cause the hitboxes would last a while, and the ending lag was a lot less. Now he kind of just sits there, waiting to be punished :/

Espy Rose · Oct 4, 2014

The cooldown is just as bad as Brawl, but the startup and knockback is definitely better. So long as your timing/spacing is tight. :applejack:

Deleted member 245254 · Oct 4, 2014

RedrappeR said:
This is the best way to be passive aggressive, and totally show a lack of maturity in all things at the same time.

I will tell you though that unlike Espy there's a good chance I'm much older than you are, and sincerely dude, on any level you're handling a conversation with someone on a message board in the worst way possible. You could've easily messaged him and resolved it there, but you had to bring it into the giant public view because, hey, you need everybody to see you don't take **** from no one. Which is great, and also unnecessary.

Well, maybe you're right in that I often try to force people to be confronted with their faults allowing the majority to witness it for themselves. Sending an individual message, in my opinion, is not always very effective in making a point because you have nobody else to corroborate what you say. Even if I risk being the only wrong person in the room, I am not ashamed of my own opinions. I'm pretty sure that your opinion on my handling of a conversation isn't very meaningful, and neither is your age relevant to mine, so I'll ignore those.

But if you want a sincere opinion, you got the game early, and you act a lot as if that gives you some insane and powerful license and automatic vindication into all things competitive, and that may not be in your intention, but that's how your coming off. Like somehow, because you jumped the release date you're wise old sage now. That's why people are annoyed with you.

This is utterly your [wrong] perception. My goal has been 100% to share the material of the game before it came to the masses, with every effort possible. I've declared at nearly every corner that I am not a professional, and yet still you manage to misinterpret me as trying to be all-knowing 100% vindicated in-all-things-competitive? Sorry, but it is not my responsibility to guide you in to how you should read posts less aggressive-minded. I'd say a very large majority of people were able to properly deduce that I simple meant to inform, and that's where it stopped. Aside from that I'm an opinionated human like anyone else.

Just take a step back and a deep breath. Yes, you totally should have a say in these conversations because you want to play this game, and I'm sure you're going to have something meaningful to add to the conversation. But also keep in mind, that for the next couple weeks reread your posts because, again, as positive as your intentions may be-- you're coming off like a ****.

Ditto.

or maybe it's just me. But, w/e. Also, it's probably a bad idea to get defensive after this post because you'll just be digging a hole. My .02 cents.

Lol, "here, I'mma bash you publicly for bashing someone I like publicly like a total hypocrite and then if you try to respond then you lose." Childish nonsense.

Espy Rose said:
You're right on the mark, Reddy.

Late edit, but allow me to explain myself so Zipzo can understand something here. Understand, not agree with.

I've been following your posts and the like on the Smash 4 forums Zippy, and the only things I extract from your posts are arrogance, pretentiousness, and a sense of superiority as far as Smash knowledge goes. It's all just bizarre and unwelcome when considering that you just kinda showed up. I disagree with this next statement completely, but you gotta earn the privilege to be that way here. You've done nothing on the sort.

This is your own faulty interpretation. We don't all type sugar cake-styled words when we post. No matter who you are, you never inherently have the privilege of being a **** for no reason. If you want to continue being one just for the sake of being one, that only pushes the issue farther down the rabbit hole. You're creating the vicious cycle yourself, which means it's utterly irrelevant the reasons you state why you're acting like a Smash jock, because you would do it anyway. And for what? Because of some petty perception of me having some kind of ego? Now that's maturity.

And even if you didn't just show up for Smash 4, I don't know you. I've been around the Smash community for almost 10 years now. I know names and faces and attitudes for each of the games, and have never heard of you. You're talking about mechanics and the like as a new face whom I've never even heard of, and through that, demand a high sense of command. It doesn't work that way. Not here.

It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't come off as nothing short of cocky/arrogant/pretentious, and as Reddy said, it's straight up annoying. There's a way one must carry themselves if respect, dignity, and integrity is what they want others to see in their posts. Being overly assertive doesn't do you any favors if that's your goal.

I've been around the block. I've experienced people who act and post just like you. Still do from time to time. I took part in plenty of discussions with other knowledgeable minds in the Brawl back rooms. It wears on you. You learn to stop giving a damn about what they have to say, to start believing only after seeing results or mass agreement amongst those with better understanding of the game. Seeing that kind of post sprout in here, a place much of the Brawl Sonic family assimilated to to have fun dissecting the game, ticks me off.

Brawl Sonics were crazy. Some pissy, some wacky, some hysterical, and a few critical on Sonic's mechanics. It all added up to an extremely enjoyable experience that helped evolve Sonic's meta. It was fine. We accepted each other despite those attitudes. KID Goggles and I would get at each others' throats all the time. Hell, X and I went through a ton of silly drama back then.

I'm not seeing that same sense of camaraderie or fun here (granted, the game just came out). Posts like ours just don't do this group justice. I'm here to investigate Sonic, to read about tech, and watch videos and discuss meta. But I'm also here to have fun doing it.

Bollux. If you're it for the discussion and sophistication you wouldn't be the way you are in the first place because that does nobody any good. All you do is instigate the problem further. It's funny that much of what you're saying is what I interpret from you and what you post. Funny, isn't it? Oh, wait, according to your logic you've earned the right to be a pretentious person, is what you said?

Live by your own words, friend.

"There's a way one must carry themselves if respect, dignity, and integrity is what they want others to see in their posts"

I suppose to this you will say "I don't care what you think of my posts!". To which then I would simply respond with the same. Your interpretation of my character is easily so far the least of my worries it doesn't register on the list.

I only called you out for posting uselessly because no matter who you are, useless posts annoy me, and you seem to like doing that a lot, whether it's just to me or not. I have exercised a different theme, I've attempted for the entire community to be as informative and useful as possible. I don't get paid to report news on Smash, I did all of that completely out of the desire to help. I took tons and tons of time to figure as much out as I could. You could at least recognize the colossal effort involved in what I was trying to do.

As for the whole teasing you bit. It's fun. It totally is. You're a complete stick in the mud, and I honestly don't mind if you continue to be from here on out. I just thought I'd let you know why I'm being so unwilling to elaborate for you.

If you ever wanna swap serious discussion, I'm all here and ready and willing. Otherwise, imma rail you over and over, because that's how Brawl Sonic do.

This is such a contradiction. You're unwilling to elaborate anything for me, yet within the same breath state you are willing to have serious discussion. An immediate sign that you neither possess the justification nor the reasoning to act like a douche, but most notably lack the desire for actual discussion in the first place. I don't know you either, dude. Polite and sophisticated discussion starts with you letting your ego down to allow others share their opinions, just because I'm more vocal than others doesn't change that fact.

Let me tell you how I do. It's simple, you think I'm a "stick in the mud" when I'm really not. I'm not opposed to a never-ending cockfight on these boards because you choose to be combative and douchey in all of your posts, but that's your choice. You can either chill, approach discussion civilly, or you can keep throwing mindless one-liners thinking you're zinging me, and continuing to promote the degradation of my consideration of your opinion on a persons character. You pretty much described yourself to me in your post, I feel all the more validated in my own opinion of you.

TLDR; do unto others etc, golden rule, be the change you want to see, all of that.

Phoenix_Dark · Oct 4, 2014

Throwing in my .02 as this went from amusing to overdone. I'll be honest. It may not be your intention, but that's how you're probably coming off to a large number of people.

Brawl Sonic's gathered and talked like a brotherhood. One can see it as arrogance, but I think it's generally accepted here that you had to earn your place when getting into deep discussions pertaining to the character we've all put insane amounts of time on.

I personally don't think it's enough to troll you over, but myself and apparently others have seen and read your posts like you have a superiority complex when it comes to sonic in smash 4.

Which is fine. You'll see a lot of people here like that. The difference is you just haven't earned it yet. I just don't think you're taking a smart approach when it comes to discussing things here.

All of this is silly though. If you don't like how he's treating you, just ignore it and feel superior in the fact that you don't have a creepy pony obsession. Yes, I still think you're all F'ing bizarre with your pony love.

Fresh starts all around I say. Stop with the ********. Smash 4 is out and Sonic is fun to play. So be happy and ****.

Camalange · Oct 4, 2014

Changes from Brawl, new stuff, etc:

the community

B.A.M. · Oct 5, 2014

LOL. Camalange

and for the record Zipzo I'm willing to bet the majority of people in here feel exactly the same as Espy does. You are being exceptionally pretentious whether you wish to believe it or not. The thing I find hilarious is that in your retort to Espy you state that he should deal with it as everything cant be sugar coated. Despite the fact that this entire argument was catalyzed by your outburst over simple banter. Its just absurd. Everyone here is more than willing to hear your thoughts and combined all our talents to dissecting this character. However, there is a community here that has been established far before this game. Belittling and marginalizing people in that said community doesnt promote cohesiveness. Especially when no one has a clue who you are yet you claim to be this grand competitive sonic.

So how about we all just start over and get to the crux of why we are all here. We are all probably going to be in this for the long haul so lets try to start off on a good foot!

So back to Sonic!

I must say I am in love with this dsmash. Its actually pretty disjointed and acts as a great trip guard. Its also amazing on dthrow tech chases. Something that I find really interesting as well is that it seems that our HA is quite a bit faster and combos better from spin combos at high percents which seems that it will help setup gimping opportunities. I wish we were able to do HA as many time as we want

. theres SOOOOO many recoveries in this game I feel that would get owned by HA if we were able to use it multiple times. Aw well.

Anyone dont like Sonic changes overall?

Kinzer · Oct 5, 2014

Espy Rose said:
As an aside, I love all the new Sonics. I'm pretty excited to see if some fresh faces will be able to take Sonic strats in a different direction. Brawl Sonics have a bias towards their particular styles from that game. We're already artificially stunted. I wanna see what a blank slate can do.

You call it artificially stunted, I call it a new opportunity.

Around the time Brawl came out, I was sixteen years old. At that age, I was neither physically or mentally able to assimilate myself into a competitive scene, even if Smash (and more specifically: Brawl) was more forgiving comparatively to the likes of the established Street Fighters and Marvels.

Now that I am turning 22 years old in 2 weeks, I've much more that I can access in order to advance my goals. I've a job now. No longer need I rely on my parents' approval to go out of the house to chase after something I find passion in. I only need the patience and resolve to save whatever amount of resources it will take to get me where I want to be, regardless of whether I see any immediate physical return.

I can adapt, I can more clearly and quickly see my mistakes.

I don't know about you; but, before I settle down with my girlfriend and find a career related to my college degree along with having to take care of however many children I'm going to have in the future; I want to live the childhood I couldn't before with the mental acuity of a young adult.

My time to shine is now; and if I MYSELF can't make it big like you did in the hey-days of Brawl, I'll set the path to guide for everyone else.

Kuraudo · Oct 5, 2014

Without a c-stick I thought I was screwed cause doing spin shot was something I always did with a flick of the c-stick.

I can do it now. Just gotta be quick off the side b and trigger a DSmash motion. Boom. Insta-spin shot for those crossups and edgeguards with springs. I am experimenting with the new style of Sonic though, using what I know as a base and implementing more DAir (trying to get the spike is tough) and BThrow as a kill move is so legit.

Looks like amongst Bowser, Lucina, Mega Man and Sheik, I gotta add Sonic to my 3DS roster again. If not through friend codes maybe I'll poke some of you guys through For Glory sometime.

--

... also. Man. I totally fell outta the pony thing quick. Could prolly marathon it again if I started though. But that's neither here nor there.

Espy Rose · Oct 5, 2014

@Zipperdoodle: K.
@

Kinzer : That's exactly my point. You're already structured to think and act a certain way. New blood is the scariest thing. They have no understanding of the foundation we used to build ourselves in this game. They have no clue. It makes them completely unpredictable.

Essentially, we're getting a whole bunch of Megafoxes coming out of Smash 4. Players with zero fear and no respect for a character's attributes. It's what makes them so free to evolve in any way. We're fixated. It's not the same.

@

Kuraudo : Pony and goin' strong. So good.

:applejack:

Anthinus · Oct 5, 2014

Sonic Orochi said:
Double jumping out of SDR after ASC/ASD? I sure as hell used a lot of that.

Yeah, I used that a lot too. At least if you hit your opponent with SDR after ASC/ASD you can footstool him/her.

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