Most efficient controller setup? In-depth look.

[option.iv]

Ok, I've been thinking about the controls in this game to find the most efficient setup. First off, I'll have to bring up certain points about controls in this game. I'll be prioritizing efficiency over comfort (what you're used to). Though comfort will still have some influence in picking the right controls.

Reasoning:

Spoiler

1. Movement and tilts require an analog stick. So this means dpads won't cut it, nor arcade sticks. ANALOG IS REQUIRED.

2. Shields in this game are not analog like in Melee. They're either on or off. You can't control the density/size of shield. There is travel distance on analog triggers like the GCN (registers shield about halfway). Therefore, a DIGITAL BUTTON is optimal.

3. Up-smash & Up-B out of shield is technically jump cancelling into up-smash. This can be replicated with either pressing JUMP + Up-A or Up-B, or JUMP + c-stick up (smash). Therefore DISABLING TAP JUMP is optimal. Also grants you ability to go straight into up-tilted shield.

4. C-stick is a macro for the control stick and attack button. This can be replicated by the control stick and attack button. At the time of this post, c-stick does not behave as previous smash iterations in that it inputs 1 frame of control stick + attack. For however long you hold the c-stick, it holds the input. During the held time, you cannot use the control stick to move, because you're essentially using it up already on the held c-stick. Despite this, C-Stick is still optimal because of inherent throw on the analog stick. Players need to be sure to NOT hold the c-stick for aerials.

With c-stick set to smash, easy pivot fsmashs can be done. Dash, pivot, then c-stick fmash.

Setting c-stick to tilts (attacks) is another option (allows movement while held). When hitting diagonals, neutral attack is registered. You cannot angle ftilts with c-stick alone. Also you lose access to easy pivot fsmash. To do a pivot fsmash manually, you need to hit the pivot and A button on the same frame, otherwise you get a tilt. With c-stick set to smash, the macro does it for you, and you don't have to worry about hitting pivot and attack at the same time.

In general, if you want easy pivot fsmash, set c-stick to smash. If you want maximum aerial control of nair, set c-stick to attack (tilt).

5. For the most effective aerials, Jump should be bound to a shoulder button. This offloads jump from your thumb to a free index finger. No longer do you have to move your thumb from jump (i.e. X/Y) to c-stick. You can have your thumb already on c-stick.

6. There is NO NEED FOR TWO JUMP, SHIELD, OR GRAB BUTTONS. This frees up a button to reassign.

7. Grab is a macro for shield + attack. Optimally, it's best to keep this macro because there is still human error when pressing two buttons at the same time. However, this button can be given up and reassigned.

8. There may or may not be input delay with wireless devices. For now, it's up to user discretion.


Because of the reasons above, the old 3ds, wiimote, and any arcade sticks are out.

That leaves Gamepad, Wii U Pro Controller, GCN Controller, Wiimote + nunchuk, Wii Pro controller/PDP Fightpad, and finally new 3DS (not out in NA yet).

For optimal controls:
- Shield must be bound to a DIGITAL BUTTON
- TAP JUMP OFF
- C-Stick set to SMASH or ATTACK
- Shoulder button set to Jump


Example Layouts (assume unlisted buttons are default):

Gamepad/Wii U Pro Controller/New 3DS

Spoiler

TAP JUMP OFF
C-Stick set to Smash
L = Jump
X = Grab

This layout honestly feels the most efficient the more I play with it. Setting a shoulder button to jump gets rid of the "weird" placement of the right analog stick. It's no longer just your thumb controlling jump and aerials. You offload jump to one of your index fingers. You can just as easily up+a/up+b out of shield (i.e. L+R+C-stick up). The fact that the shoulder buttons on these controllers are digital opens up many more possibilities. X is Grab to allow easy boost grabs. ZL and ZR can also be set to jump or shield if you're more comfortable with those compared to the L and R shoulder buttons.

The cons with all the wireless controllers is logistics. Depending on the environment (locals, online, tournament) syncing and desyncing can play a huge factor. Also no one has done a concrete test on input lag. All these controller configurations take up time to setup for the first time. There is no way to retain controller configs on your controller when moving from system to system. Like how gaming mice store their information in onboard memory.

In the end, you'll keep hearing "play whatever feels comfortable to you." Seriously though, this is a new game, it's not the same Melee/Brawl you remember. As surprising as it may sound, the GCN may not be the "best" controller for this game.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I prefer Tap Jump on. Just makes JC Up smash, Up Smash/B OoS and other JCs easier imo.

Also I come from a Melee background so I'm used to dealing with it. Shield tilting and using tilts isn't that hard with it on.

Just trying to show that in the case of Tap Jump it comes down to preference.

 

[option.iv]

With Tap Jump Off, you can go to fully up tilted shield MUCH faster than manually tilting with Tap Jump On. If you go too fast, you're going to jump.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

With Tap Jump Off, you can go to fully up tilted shield MUCH faster than manually tilting with Tap Jump On. If you go too fast, you're going to jump.

All you have to do is be precise with your movement, which isn't all that hard to do consistently with practice, something required to do well competitively.

Hence, preference.

 

[option.iv]

It still doesn't change the fact that going to fully up tilted shield is faster with Tap Jump Off than Tap Jump On. The problem isn't being able to fully tilt the shield, it's how fast you can do it.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

It still doesn't change the fact that going to fully up tilted shield is faster with Tap Jump Off than Tap Jump On. The problem isn't being able to fully tilt the shield, it's how fast you can do it.

The speed isn't really an issue of TJ Off but eh.

Personally I consider OoS stuff far more important than shield tilt. So yeah, preference

 

[Uniit]

Maybe my 2 cents, but my controls are (on the GCC, unlisted are default) :
Tap Jump Off
R -> Specials
Z -> Attack
Y -> Grab

With this i can UpB OoS easily. Z into Attack was used for Dacus back in Brawl, so now, it may change. I can't see the problem with shield being in L, you can just softly push right next to the "click" to be ready to shield.

If in the future i'm not pleased with this because some tech are easier with other, i might change those, but not right now :D.

 

[option.iv]

Initially when I got the GCN controller bundle, my main reason was c-stick and analog shields. When I come to find out that shields are digital all across the board and the way c-sticks are implemented, it's giving me second thoughts as to why I'm using the Gamecube controller in the first place.

 

[B0NK]

It's complete preference, there is no "optimal" set up. It's purely subjective.

And tap jump on and tap jump off doesn't mean you can tilt up your shield faster. It'll always be the same speed, it's just that one way you can "smash" the stick while the other way you must "tilt" the stick. The amount of frames it takes is still the same.

Some people flip their A and B buttons, some people only jump and short hop with tap jump and the stick, regardless, it's purely preference.

 

[option.iv]

And tap jump on and tap jump off doesn't mean you can tilt up your shield faster. It'll always be the same speed, it's just that one way you can "smash" the stick while the other way you must "tilt" the stick. The amount of frames it takes is still the same.

No, I'm talking about from neutral to furthest up tilted shield. With Tap on, if you go too fast you WILL get jump. There is time between going from neutral to manual tilt. With Tap off, you can just smash/jam the stick up. How is Tap Off not faster than Tap On. Also, It's not purely subjective, why do you think people went to c-stick during melee when SHFFL-ing was prevalent? Why do mouse users aim better than pad players for fps?

Right now, the Gamecube controller has no real advantages over the gamepad and pro controller. Nintendo sold all those adapters and controllers based on nostalgia alone. And yeah, I too fell for it.

 

[Conda]

Binding shield to a face button won't work well for some unless you have multiple thumbs or don't mind moving your thumb into different positions often. I need my thumb ready on a and B and grab (x for me). For Y (jump) I curl my index finger over to it (semi-claw).

Interesting thread though, just doesn't apply to me. I don't use R or Z, L is my shield button, and yeah.

 

[B0NK]

No, I'm talking about from neutral to furthest up tilted shield. With Tap on, if you go too fast you WILL get jump. There is time between going from neutral to manual tilt. With Tap off, you can just smash/jam the stick up. How is Tap Off not faster than Tap On. Also, It's not purely subjective, why do you think people went to c-stick during melee when SHFFL-ing was prevalent? Why do mouse users aim better than pad players for fps?

Right now, the Gamecube controller has no real advantages over the gamepad and pro controller. Nintendo sold all those adapters and controllers based on nostalgia alone. And yeah, I too fell for it.

afk

 

[Conda]

The notches on the sticks is reason enough. Plus you cannot claw grip on the pro controller.

 

[Azazel]

A shoulder Jump buttton is must. If both thumbs are occupied with Both Sticks, how else would you jump efficiently? And that's pretty much it and maybe perhaps an extra Shield/Grab as a thumb button.

 

[Shadowfury333]

I've been running L for jump since 3DS (Kinda had to to get a convenient grab button), so I'm pretty firmly on the "shoulder jump button" train.

I'm trying to think if there is a way to get shoulder buttons for everything, but I can't think of anything that would work for all 5 functions without double button pressing.

 

[Cornstalk]

Is removing the spring resistance from a GameCube controller shoulder buttons okay for tournaments?
Some have a no controller mod rule, but for Smash 4 I don't see it being an issue. Plus I've met a few people that liked doing that even for Melee.

Would it actually help with using the two shoulder buttons finger speed response wise?

 

[option.iv]

Is removing the spring resistance from a GameCube controller shoulder buttons okay for tournaments?
Some have a no controller mod rule, but for Smash 4 I don't see it being an issue. Plus I've met a few people that liked doing that even for Melee.

Would it actually help with using the two shoulder buttons finger speed response wise?

Well, if you look at controllers like the SCUF modified ones, they have a stopper on the triggers. Because you don't have to register the trigger press all the way for fps games, you're fine with just partway. If that can be achieved on the gamecube controller through the mod you're talking about, I don't see why not. As far as Smash 4 goes, the GCN analog triggers DON'T give an advantage over the other controller methods.

edit: Looking over common tourny rules, modifications to controller that are not cosmetic (includes removing springs) are not allowed. I believe that modding, at least the removal of springs should be OK'ed.

edit2: Looks like we won't have to worry about modding controllers since they don't work with the spring removed.
http://smashboards.com/threads/base...o-longer-work-for-the-gcn-controllers.379106/

 

[LunarNinja]

Personally, I don't see a reason to have two jump buttons on the standard controls/GCC, so I would make X my grab, naturally. I never got used to the Z button on the GCC, so that makes me want to use my 3DS as a controller.

 

[option.iv]

Personally, I don't see a reason to have two jump buttons on the standard controls/GCC, so I would make X my grab, naturally. I never got used to the Z button on the GCC, so that makes me want to use my 3DS as a controller.

You know, for a long time I thought it was the 3ds controls holding me back in smash. But now that I think about it, that isn't the case at all. Once the NEW 3ds comes out, I think people like you who are used to 3ds can switch to gamepad/wii u pro controller easiliy, and vice versa. But it doesn't change the fact that the 3ds is not very ergonomic, dem hand cramps.

 

[DrRek]

People have been complaining about the 3DS's controls ever since that version came out. It's good to see some people that actually didn't mind it. The only thing for me is I felt that the slide-pad may be a bit fragile when compared to an analog stick. now that I'm using the GC controller I'm missing having a jump button right above the special button. But I've gotten some good ideas on how to remedy that thanks to this thread.

 

[タオー]

I adopted the Claw grip for Melee and I don't forsee myself ever switching to anything else. It's simply how I relate to the game. I am interested to see how the new C-stick behavior feels though.

 

[Uniit]

I'm interrested in the Claw grip. How do you used R and Z in that configuration ?

 

[Jiggsbomb]

I personally think that the meta will revolve around the bongo controller.
But seriously, I am going to go with the super popular opinion and say GC controller. It is just so GOOD. Also tap jump should be off. But some people prefer it, like they can JC Up smash easier and go with their OoS options. Even though I have played smash competitively for over a decade. I still prefer jumping with the butons, especially the .

 

[Zacko]

I've been really interested in this subject ever since I bought the 3DS version. When testing out customized controls, I came to the same conclusion as option.iv, that using L or R for jumping would be great on the Wii U pro controller, as it allows you to rest your index finger on the jump button and use your thumb on the "c-stick" for comfortable aerials while jumping, which is the same effect you get from using the "claw grip".
You can also set the right stick to do "attacks" (tilts), which allows you to do c-stick aerials without flicking the stick, as mentioned in the smashboards thread: (Update) Aerial C-Stick Issues +*Workaround*. This will also allow you to do Nair by moving stick diagonally, which lets you do all aerials without moving your thumb from the right stick.

I haven't been able to test this out on Wii U yet as I live in Europe, but it sounds really comfortable, and I generally prefer the design of the Pro Controller over the GC controller. I also don't like doing the claw grip (even though I can clearly see its advantages), which is why I really like the idea of using the shoulder buttons to jump.

My biggest issue from using L/R to jump in the 3DS is that it is a lot harder to do short hops with the shoulder buttons than the standard X/Y, but the shoulder buttons on the Pro Controller are different and look like they could be much better for short hopping.

 

[option.iv]

What I got used to over the years for shorthopping was sliding my thumb on the lower part of the button. I'll have to reprogram my left index finger to do something similar, like catching the corner of the L button on the 3ds/Gamepad/Wii U Pro.

 

[Zacko]

What I got used to over the years for shorthopping was sliding my thumb on the lower part of the button. I'll have to reprogram my left index finger to do something similar, like catching the corner of the L button on the 3ds/Gamepad/Wii U Pro.

Exactly!
I find this really hard to do with the L-button on the 3DS, but the Pro Controller feels like it would be perfect for this.
Looking forward to trying it out on Friday!

 

[erico9001]

Exactly!
I find this really hard to do with the L-button on the 3DS, but the Pro Controller feels like it would be perfect for this.
Looking forward to trying it out on Friday!

Nice avatar and welcome to Smashboards! I wonder, if you are a fan of Xenoblade you might like to check out the Colony 6 social thread in the Shulk boards =].

Anyways, I've learned to short hop extremely well using tap jumps rather than buttons, so I don't want to turn that off. I can still Oos Up-Smash fine with it fine but up tilt is hard. Therefore, what I do is set the right analog stick (pro controller) to plain "attack." Having the tilts set to the stick seems more advantageous to me as a Shulk main anyways.

Furthermore, thanks to setting the stick to "attack" I've made a bit of a discovery. I posted about it in the Q&A thread in case somebody already discovered it, but I suspect since you don't bring it up that it hasn't.

Using the right analog stick set to Smash attacks restricts movements on land and in air while the stick is pressed in a direction. It also stops tap jumping, pressing the A button, and grabs (puts up a shield instead). You can do neutral B but not any directional B attacks, suggesting that the inputs of the joystick in any direction are completely blocked out.

However, if the right analog stick is set to plain "attack," the only thing that is restricted is tap jumps (up B does work). You are free to move in the air as freely as you want while pressing down on the c-stick. Unfortunately, there is an issue with having it set to "attack," and that is for some reason when pressing left midair it sometimes does your N-air instead of doing your Bair or Fair. It is only when pressing left though, which is odd.

I only tested this with the Pro controller and gamepad - not gamecube

Was this previously known? It could have some implications for how people play the game.

When you talk about making sure not to hold c-stick while doing aerials, that does not actually apply if you have the stick set to "attack.' However, for some reason when I press left on the stick when it's set to attack it does an Nair where it won't when it's set to Smash attack. I don't know if it's something to do just with the Wii U controllers or what.
-
Something to add, whether or not you have the grab set to X or not, it's probably best to have it on the right side. This makes the timing for boost grabs more reliable because getting the timing is harder if you press A with the right hand and press grab with the left hand. This is due to how the brain works.

Umm I have to go shovel so I won't be able to respond for a while.

 

[option.iv]

Nice avatar and welcome to Smashboards! I wonder, if you are a fan of Xenoblade you might like to check out the Colony 6 social thread in the Shulk boards =]Furthermore, thanks to setting the stick to "attack" I've made a bit of a discovery. I posted about it in the Q&A thread in case somebody already discovered it, but I suspect since you don't bring it up that it hasn't.

When you talk about making sure not to hold c-stick while doing aerials, that does not actually apply if you have the stick set to "attack.' However, for some reason when I press left on the stick when it's set to attack it does an Nair where it won't when it's set to Smash attack. I don't know if it's something to do just with the Wii U controllers or what.

What's been figured out about the c-stick so far is that when set to attack (tilts) if you input a diagonal, you get a neutral. You also can't get pivot ftilt with c-stick, as a dash attack just comes out. However, like you said, you have full movement in the air even if you hold the c-stick set to attack.

The reason why I'm sticking with c-stick to smash is because you get easy pivot fsmash. I'd rather just flick the stick and keep that ability, as I see no real reason to hold the c-stick for aerials.

Maybe I should include the c-stick findings in my OP. It is somewhat pertinent to this discussion.

 

[Zacko]

Nice avatar and welcome to Smashboards! I wonder, if you are a fan of Xenoblade you might like to check out the Colony 6 social thread in the Shulk boards =].

Anyways, I've learned to short hop extremely well using tap jumps rather than buttons, so I don't want to turn that off. I can still Oos Up-Smash fine with it fine but up tilt is hard. Therefore, what I do is set the right analog stick (pro controller) to plain "attack." Having the tilts set to the stick seems more advantageous to me as a Shulk main anyways.

Furthermore, thanks to setting the stick to "attack" I've made a bit of a discovery. I posted about it in the Q&A thread in case somebody already discovered it, but I suspect since you don't bring it up that it hasn't.

Thanks! I've been lurking the smashboards forum for quite some time and made this account just to post in this thread.
I changed avatar a few times, but I am guessing you saw the one with Shulk.
He's currently my main/favorite too, and I've played a bit of Xenoblade, and Smash reignited my interest for it!

Setting the c-stick to tilts seems perfect for Shulk, but is it hard to do his Nair with the stick?
It would be incredibly useful to be able to do Nairs without letting go of the left (movement) control stick.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I haven't tried using my GC controller for this yet because the adapters are too expensive and hard to get right now for its normal retail price.
I been using the Wii u tablet controller, it seems to fit my hands perfectly. I love it. It might end up being my main controller.

For the face buttons I have jump set to north, attack set to east, special set to south and grab set to west.
For the shoulder buttons I have the right shoulder buttons set to shield and the left side set to shield and jump even before I saw this thread and c stick set to smash. It does seem like that ultimate control method with tap jump off.
I find it easy to do out of shield up smashes and up b's with the shoulder button set to jump . There is no good reason to have tap jump on anymore unless you can't adapt to a new game but that's more of a personality flaw that holds you back.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Setting c-stick to tilts (attacks) is another option (allows movement while held), but when hitting diagonals, neutral attack is registered. Until they change this, setting c-stick to smash is a better option.

Wait, is that supposed to be bad? I've been putting this to great use for Puff, nairs while moving are the best thing ever! If you don't want a nair, just don't hit a diagonal, simple as that.

You also can't get pivot ftilt with c-stick, as a dash attack just comes out.

You can, timing's just strict. But that's already the case without the c-stick anyway. Keep trying, it works.

Honestly the more I play with tilt stick, the more I like it. I think it's fairly character dependent though, some like it better (Mega Man <3 shoryuken and slide), some don't (with Kirby I seem to always mess up dair->usmash and get utilt instead, stick would be helpful for higher percents when I don't want to utilt). If they ever patch it to fix aerials I'll start using two nametags, one for tilts and one for smashes.

I find it easy to do out of shield up smashes and up b's with the shoulder button set to jump . There is no good reason to have tap jump on anymore unless you can't adapt to a new game but that's more of a personality flaw that holds you back.

And I find it easy to still utilt while it's on (especially with that shiny new tilt stick anyway), so I don't see the harm in just leaving it for the sake of easier OoS. As long as you're still using button jump primarily, it doesn't really matter, just personal preference.

 

[option.iv]

Wait, is that supposed to be bad? I've been putting this to great use for Puff, nairs while moving are the best thing ever! If you don't want a nair, just don't hit a diagonal, simple as that.

You can, timing's just strict. But that's already the case without the c-stick anyway. Keep trying, it works.

Since hitting diagonal renders a neutral, what's the point. Just press a neutral. If you could actually angle your tilts, it would be a valid option, but you can't with c-stick set to tilt. I can see uses for Jiggly if you want maximum air movement, but I feel the smash setting outweighs the tilt setting.

Also, the point of efficiency is to make things easier for yourself and cut down on technical mistakes. Doing a pivot ftilt is braindead easy without c-stick. Do I need another way to do pivot tilt with c-stick? No. I'd rather get access to easy pivot fsmash. Manually doing pivot fsmash is bound to create mistakes and getting pivot ftilt instead. For pivot fsmash, you need to time the pivot with A seemingly frame perfect, otherwise you'd get a tilt. With c-stick to smash, it's a macro so you don't need to worry about timing the the movement stick and A at the same time. You're having the system work for you.

I'll need to update the wording for c-stick mechanics.

edit: another exception I can see to c-stick setting is for example Yoshi's that use up+b alot. Although the same can be done on a tap jump off layout and you lose a lot of easy macros in the process.

 

[MegaMissingno]

The point is for aerials. Same reason why we use c-stick for aerials in the first place, to retain full movement control no matter what direction you attack in. If you want to do an angled tilt on the ground, use the left stick.

 

[option.iv]

Ah, ok, I see your point there. But the trade off is an easy pivot fsmash. The couple of frames where you don't have movement with c-stick to smash compared to having to press A and pivot at the same time (feels like 1-3 frames within each other)... I would honestly take the smash route because the window is MUCH more demanding than positioning a nair.

You either get a smash or you get a tilt, which may or may not be as good, depending on the character.

When positioning a neutral, what, you lose very miniscule distance manually doing a neutral than moving the analog compared to if you had c-stick tilt and could move the same time you input a nair.

 

[Zacko]

Is it hard to do Nair diagonal tilts with the c-stick set to attack/tilt instead of smash? I read that you have to do a "perfect diagonal" which sounds a bit tricky to do with the pro controller.

Since I'm maining Shulk, I'm doing a lot of Nairs, and it would be very useful to be able to retain full aerial movement.

 

[Twigler]

I like default controls

 

[option.iv]

The movement you lose if any from using the manual method vs c-stick tilt is honestly negligible. Most of the time I get the same distance covered with Jiggs using both methods, if not then most I lose is a Jigglypuff foot. I test this by going to the edge doing it manually (jump, a, hold stick towards stage) and with c-stick tilt (jump, c-stick diagonal + stick towards stage). I believe the reason I'm maintaining similar momentum in both ways is because it's dependent on pre-jump frames. As long as you smash the stick during pre-jump frames you retain the same momentum as if you did if you c-stick naired it. This window seems pretty lenient as well.

edit: C-stick set to smash is definitely not for every character. Some benefit more than others, I'll change the OP to reflect that.

Is it hard to do Nair diagonal tilts with the c-stick set to attack/tilt instead of smash? I read that you have to do a "perfect diagonal" which sounds a bit tricky to do with the pro controller.

Since I'm maining Shulk, I'm doing a lot of Nairs, and it would be very useful to be able to retain full aerial movement.

You have to be fairly accurate with the diagonal to get a nair. I'd say you have about a 10 degree leeway from the diagonals to hit the nair, maybe even less.

 

[Zacko]

The movement you lose if any from using the manual method vs c-stick tilt is honestly negligible. Most of the time I get the same distance covered with Jiggs using both methods, if not then most I lose is a Jigglypuff foot.

You have to be fairly accurate with the diagonal to get a nair. I'd say you have about a 10 degree leeway from the diagonals to hit the nair, maybe even less.

Thanks! I'll have to try it out for myself on friday. I suppose it is possible to set up two profiles to switch between c-stick smash/attack when switching between characters.

 

[erico9001]

I'm using the pro controller and getting the Nair with the right analog stick takes getting used to. I'm mostly consistent with it right now in practice mode, but that may change in a stress filled battle. Idk. I find it easiest to do by hitting the bottom left.

 

[Vyledust]

Is there a trick to making the shoulder buttons more responsive for short hops on theGC/ProU? It seems like it is mostly all or none, for me at least.