Xivii
caterpillar feet
Sorry Werekill if my manipulation comment offended you somehow. I didn't mean it to. I believe you, Joey, and J are all wrong about the way you're using the word. Manipulation is primarily a scum tact. Persuasion is primarily a town/neutral tact. Although some town peeps often use manipulation as well. This occurs among individuals who are centered on the importance of their self > others. For example, a townie who strongly feels that their reads are right or that their ability to catch scum is superior to the rest of the cast will often use manipulation. Another example is of townies who are driven into a corner. They may use manipulation to get out of their situation. I have often used this tactic. I may have even done so this game without realizing it; such as the post you quoted above.
Manipulation and Persuasion can be categorized into three categories: Logic, Emotion, and Credibility. As you will see, manipulation focuses on the negatives of these types of appeal. It is grounded in deceit. Persuasion, however, focuses on the positive ends of each of these types of appeal. It is grounded in truth.
Manipulation: False facts, over exaggerated points. logical fallacies
Example: Jerkus' push on mac used false meta facts, false iluv connections, and over exaggerated his actions.
Persuasion: Actual facts, reasoning, looks at both sides
Example: Jerkus' push on iluv has used actual facts and considered the iluv town side.
Manipulation: Used to make another feel good or bad about their actions; used for control
Example: Jerkus has attempted to make Macman feel bad about his read on J in Zombies Mafia. He has expressed multiple times that if Macman mislynches him, he is going all over his ass.
Example: Jerkus has attempted to make Werekill feel good about his reads and pushes. This reinforces Werekill's confidence in those pushes and provides a sense of connection that will limit Werekill from pushing him.
Persuasion: Used to show empathy and understanding of others; express one's point of view and tone
Example: Ranmaru's long post to me explain his actions showed his understanding of my view and why it was inaccurate.
Example: Well I'm not sure if Joey's vigor and excitement would fall under persuasive or manipulative. But right now I feel that it goes here. His super love/empathy posts regarding his disagreement with me on Jerkus made me feel...weird...but it had influence in me.
Manipulation: Used to degrade another; used to make another's view worth less in value.
Example: Everyone's degradation of Ranmaru.
Example: Gheb's degradation of everyone.
Persuasion: Used to show lack of manipulation from past experience; used to provide evidence towards truth
Example: Meta defenses; Evidence of connections/disconnections brought forth from former "days" and wagons in the game.
Of the three, I think emotion tends to be more manipulative in nature. It's hard to isolate what sort of emotion is being used positively. On the opposing end, I thing logic tends to be more persuasive in nature. It's hard to isolate what sort of logic is being used manipulatively. Credibility seems to have the nature of providing support for one way or the other.
Persuasion is the primary tool for making pushes and progressing the game (Our Voice). Manipulation is a secondary tool. The two are reversed for scum in my opinion. Still, you have to look at a person's play style when considering such things. J has a strong inclination towards emotional appeal and thus towards manipulation. He has been put in the spot light and lynched for it many times. I find his AtE with regards to Xatres and Macman null tells because of this. His appeal to you and gorf struck me as scummy, however, because they just seemed so random. But when I think it over, J really is just like that.
[By the way this is why meta is a useful tool and why it becomes a main point of discussion with people who play with each other often. Meta is a useful tool in that it separates scum tells from null tells. Meta is hardly ever useful in providing scum tells, only in nullifying them. People who argue against meta, often strawman the argument and explain why it is unreliable in finding scum tells. That is not why it's useful. It is useful in finding FALSE scumtells. It's useful because it stops people from lynching J over and over again on the grounds of his abundant AtE. It's useful because stops people from lynching Ran over and over again on the grounds of his reachy cases and tunnel vision. It may be boring to be continuously ****blocked from your pushes because of this, but you have to realize that it would be silly for people to push someone for something that they know isn't a scum tell for that person.
Meta is not a reliable reason to call someone scum.
Meta is not a reliable reason to call someone town*.
Meta is a reliable method in filtering scumtells.
*Except for Ran hehe ]
Manipulation and Persuasion can be categorized into three categories: Logic, Emotion, and Credibility. As you will see, manipulation focuses on the negatives of these types of appeal. It is grounded in deceit. Persuasion, however, focuses on the positive ends of each of these types of appeal. It is grounded in truth.
Logic
Manipulation: False facts, over exaggerated points. logical fallacies
Example: Jerkus' push on mac used false meta facts, false iluv connections, and over exaggerated his actions.
Persuasion: Actual facts, reasoning, looks at both sides
Example: Jerkus' push on iluv has used actual facts and considered the iluv town side.
Emotion
Example: Jerkus has attempted to make Macman feel bad about his read on J in Zombies Mafia. He has expressed multiple times that if Macman mislynches him, he is going all over his ass.
Example: Jerkus has attempted to make Werekill feel good about his reads and pushes. This reinforces Werekill's confidence in those pushes and provides a sense of connection that will limit Werekill from pushing him.
Persuasion: Used to show empathy and understanding of others; express one's point of view and tone
Example: Ranmaru's long post to me explain his actions showed his understanding of my view and why it was inaccurate.
Example: Well I'm not sure if Joey's vigor and excitement would fall under persuasive or manipulative. But right now I feel that it goes here. His super love/empathy posts regarding his disagreement with me on Jerkus made me feel...weird...but it had influence in me.
Credibility
Example: Everyone's degradation of Ranmaru.
Example: Gheb's degradation of everyone.
Persuasion: Used to show lack of manipulation from past experience; used to provide evidence towards truth
Example: Meta defenses; Evidence of connections/disconnections brought forth from former "days" and wagons in the game.
Of the three, I think emotion tends to be more manipulative in nature. It's hard to isolate what sort of emotion is being used positively. On the opposing end, I thing logic tends to be more persuasive in nature. It's hard to isolate what sort of logic is being used manipulatively. Credibility seems to have the nature of providing support for one way or the other.
Persuasion is the primary tool for making pushes and progressing the game (Our Voice). Manipulation is a secondary tool. The two are reversed for scum in my opinion. Still, you have to look at a person's play style when considering such things. J has a strong inclination towards emotional appeal and thus towards manipulation. He has been put in the spot light and lynched for it many times. I find his AtE with regards to Xatres and Macman null tells because of this. His appeal to you and gorf struck me as scummy, however, because they just seemed so random. But when I think it over, J really is just like that.
[By the way this is why meta is a useful tool and why it becomes a main point of discussion with people who play with each other often. Meta is a useful tool in that it separates scum tells from null tells. Meta is hardly ever useful in providing scum tells, only in nullifying them. People who argue against meta, often strawman the argument and explain why it is unreliable in finding scum tells. That is not why it's useful. It is useful in finding FALSE scumtells. It's useful because it stops people from lynching J over and over again on the grounds of his abundant AtE. It's useful because stops people from lynching Ran over and over again on the grounds of his reachy cases and tunnel vision. It may be boring to be continuously ****blocked from your pushes because of this, but you have to realize that it would be silly for people to push someone for something that they know isn't a scum tell for that person.
Meta is not a reliable reason to call someone scum.
Meta is not a reliable reason to call someone town*.
Meta is a reliable method in filtering scumtells.
*Except for Ran hehe ]
