Mewtwo's Even and Positive Matchups

[SuperShus]

This is a community made list of mewtwo's positive and even matchups.

It'll be a little short, but I feel like it's something we need to have if we're going to make much progress with this character.

We should discuss below what we think matchups we know are like and come to a consensus. Once we can agree on equal or favored, they go on the list. If a character is agreed on as a losing matchup they will go under losing matchup.

Favored

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Equal

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Losing

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[SuperShus]

I will start!

First I think these low tiers are plain givens as favored

Pichu
Bowser
Zelda
Kirby
Ness

These I think some might argue even but are probably favored

G&W
Roy
DK

These I think could be even but I'd need convincing to be sure

Yoshi
Link
Young Link

Ones I think are losing
Fox
Falco
Jiggs
Shiek
Marth
Peach
Falcon
ICs
Samus
Mario
Dr Mario
Luigi
Ganondorf
Pikachu

Ok, starting with the winning ones, I think this is pretty free,

Pichu
Pichu is just awful and I don't think pichu can approach mewtwo at all, he's got no real punishes, he's too easy for mewtwo to edge gaurd, I think this is really hard for pichu.

Bowser
Bowser is combo food in this mu and it just too big and slow. Shadow ball becomes devastating in this matchup as a zoning tool and bowser won't be able to do anything except koopa claw. Loses neutral and punishes -> loses the matcup.

Zelda
Zelda's toe can be pretty painful, but that's really all she'll have against mewtwo if you stay away from her dsmash.
Camping her with shadow balls and lots of wd back and waiting to punish whiffed toes will make the matchup too hard for zelda. Zelda is so floaty that uthrow and fair kill super early.

Ness
Ness' neutral is the best of these characters so far because of his djc and more speed, but he's still not got much compared to mewtwo. Mewtwo will out combo and out range ness, and won't be killed by the bthrow on medium and large stages. Also mewtwo can teleport out to ness to eat his up b and teleport back, giving ness the same awful recovery as yoshi, no up b. Edge gaurding will be all too easy. Even then ness' light weight and slow falling speed means he'll die of the top very easily.

Kirby
I mean, it's kirby. Any objections? No neutral, no punish, dies early. This one is the most obvious - Kirby sucks.

Ok - hopefully you guys get the idea. You can talk about one matchup, a few, or all of them. If you don't know what you think the matchup is, positive negative or even, don't vote anything yet. but if you're casting a vote make sure to make it clear. If you changed your mind (perfectly ok!) make that clear too!

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

I was hoping that trying to determine favorability would lead to constructive talk about specific matchups but I can see the problem you're saying.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

I mean.. that was the intention. The only reason there was a goal at all was to hopefully drive conversation. Ideally people would change their minds - that way conversation is continuous.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

i guess you're right brudder - just do em one at a time

 

[IdkLmao]

Took down the old post and i'm editing in this one. I've got it saved if anyone wants it. Something about it just didn't seem right to me. Not considerate enough or something.

Main talking points I tried to bring up were as follows

1.We have a mewtwo specific 20XX hack pack thread but almost nobody is posting in it. I am a firm believer that we need hack packs tools to get a well trained mewtwo and that training without 20xx hack pack isn't a good option anymore. The more good ideas we can find for training mewtwo with it the more mileage we get out of the training and the faster mewtwo improves. The more people who practice mewtwo seriously, the more potential there is for people to stumble across ideas to use hack pack.

Therefore I think introducing sub topics into the matchup discussions focusing on how we can use hack pack to train in that matchup will be very helpful. Or at least cover it somewhere. Like in the fox matchup thread I talked about using the option 20xx has to let fox upthrow and up air you over and over again to practice di on the second hit of the up air.

2. I think its really important that we get top players of their respective characters in on the matchup discussions to help. I think the ideas they have might be very helpful and might only be able to come from them because of their extensive experience. Example- Mewtwo has a bad matchup with shiek. We have mewtwoking with an excellent shiek and mewtwo. He might have a few helpful things to say that while coming easy to him might take us a few months or longer to realize is possible since we lack that same hard intuition from playing at a high level. It saves a lot of time.

3. On top of that, getting the word spread to other people like kadano and other people who do hard work looking into characters like this would be really helpful if they decide to help. I suspect we might need that elbow grease and teamwork to come up with the information we need to start coming up with very powerful ideas on how he can approach the matchup.

Imagine how helpful it would be to have a thread as good as kadanos frame perfect marth class thread for mewtwo instead. Or an active thread on mewtwo like PPMDs falco discussion thread. Speaking of which, hearing from PPMD on mewtwo would be great.

What I think we ultimately want from this, is the discovery of ideas that are so good and high quality that they will allow us to approach our matchups well enough to reliably win tournaments. I think we need kadano and other high level players/smash contributers to do this. If the framework isn't really set for the discussion to head that way then I think its set to never get there from the beginning. At this pace and especially with how slow the mewtwo boards are right now its safe to say we won't stumble across these discoveries we need to win unless something changes.

I could be wrong about needing a standard like that to make the discoveries we need. Even if we can't get a lot of extra help its still better to try as best we can than to not try at all.



4. The mewtwo boards are slow. If we're going to get serious about finally pushing mewtwos metagame to a tournament winning standard then we need to find a way to breathe life into this place. Or find someplace else to talk to focus on improving mewtwo for now. The boards are doing much better recently though which is exciting to see.

I do think mewtwo has what it takes to win tournaments so I think if we can make it past this hump and get some players here placing high then that will really start improving the activity here.

 

[SuperShus]

I mean we have a super pro mewtwo to talk to about all of this, his name is Taj - but he hasn't logged into smash boards in a year or so.

He still plays mewtwo sometimes.

We miss him.

 

[MookieRah]

I consider Link is a favored matchup for M2. The only thing that Link really has on M2 is a few kill setups from throws, but that shouldn't happen very often. Outside of that M2 can space him out better (when Link isn't far enough to throw stuff), M2 combos him better, and M2 can edgeguard him fairly well. I have pretty much always consider Link to be a free match for M2.

 

[SuperShus]

I had a lot of trouble with his projectiles last I played a Link, but I believe my problem was an inability to precisely space closely enough to deny projectile spam while not getting grabbed/naired.

What do you think about young link? His agility gave be troubles as well, and since his best kill move, dair, is good against mewtwo, one of his biggest downsides is kind of missing, I think.

 

[MookieRah]

I think Young Link is either even or disadvantaged for M2. He's really annoying to deal with due to his speed. He's definitely more of a problem than Link is.