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OLD Meta Knight Match-up Discussion

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busken

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Welcome to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Thread!


From now on we will be doing a week by week format, or whenever I feel enough input has been put in to the discussion were everybody's viewpoint is seen. Some discussions may last more then a week, or maybe even less. Please don't be afraid to discuss the matchup even if you have low experience. After we everybody's input has been heard I will put a small summary of the matchup in the OP below and give credit respectively. Once the current discussion is finalized the next character discussion will be a community vote, which be held in the general discussion thread.

In order to form a better way to communicate match-ups and gameplay Katakiri(a great player and contributor) will be taking over the MU project!
 
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busken

Smash Ace
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Matchup List
:4sonic:
With shorter range, small hurtbox, and a lack of priority make the Sonic matchup very unfavorable for Meta Knight. His lack of range makes his aerials unable to cover him well, allowing sonic to beat his air camping techniques. With Sonic's dominant shield pressure, MK's small shield make his main defensive option(shield) decreased in viability. His small hurtbox contributes to him being lighter making him being killed more easily by Sonic's main kill moves such as side smash, back throw, back air, and up air. The lack of priority means he has little tools to beat spin dash making his offensive options poor. All in all, the MU is 70:30 in Sonic's favor due to the inability for MK to maintain solid defense and consistent offensive options.
MU 70:30
 
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warionumbah2

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I'll start with Mario since he's Nintendo's mascot. Played a lot of Mario's on ND so i got experience on other stages outside of FD.

Will edit this post soon. Gotta start from somewhere.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:4metaknight:vs:4mario:
Pros: Because MK uses a sword he literally beats every single aerial in Mario's arsenal, this gives MK a huge edge in racking up damage and snagging a kill(only if the player is foolish enough to challenge MK with their Dair or FF nair). For example MK's up tilt beats anything Mario has to offer above MK so this gives us the ability to reset Uair chains, also edge guarding Mario is much easier as he'll be helpless against MK off stage. Moves such as Nair or Bair beat Super Jump Punch if timed correctly.

M-Nado is good to abuse if Mario is all up in your face, if you want to be safe using Dtilt will push Mario away and can set up for a dash attack depending if the player reacts to the fast Dtilt. Dtilt has a 25% chance of tripping so it'll sometimes give you a guarantee dash attack which can lead to combo's OR at high percent lead to a solid kill: Dash attack ---> SH Shuttle Loop.

MK recovery options shouldn't lead to you getting spiked by Mario's Fair, we can recover low to prevent his Fair from ever connecting, we can recover using Dimensional Cape , Side Special into the ledge etc.

Best place for Mario to be for us is near the ledge, M-Nado covers so many options. Their only bet is to get up attack but spacing and good reads is key, if you're really smart you can get a F-Smash read but i would recommend playing it safe by using M-Nado.

Despite how people make fun of MK range calling it a 'butter knife' or 'toothpick' his range is actually better than Mario's and as i said earlier MK sword counts as a disjointed hitbox.

Cons: Mario does not need much commitment or air dodge reads to rack up the same if not more damage than us. From 0% all he needs is a grab and then proceed to string Utilt, when i got caught by a friend the other day by this combo i couldn't break away MK fastest aerial is Dair but i couldn't break out but when i finally could he ended the string with an Up Smash leaving me with 46%. After this percentage we don't need to worry about dangerous combo's like that but sadly he can Super Jump Punch out of D-throw even at high percent.

Not only is his combo's easy to do and give high reward but his Up-Smash beats out aerials, the usual camping above opponents while flinging out Dairs then falling with a Dair or M-Nado are invalid and are dangerous to do because Mario's head during U-Smash is invincible. Moreover his Up-Smash can beat out our Dimensional Cape when used as an attack, this is the most dangerous move and will most probably snag the most kills due to MK being a light weight which means he lacks vertical resistance. So try not to DC Mario while he's charging an Up Smash because he'll win.

D-Smash comes out almost as fast as ours and like ours packs more of a punch on the 2nd hit, this can lead to a hard punish if we try to mix up our landings in a helpless state. This also why i don't like FD because Mario's immense ground speed allows him to punish us with pretty much anything, say for example after using M-Nado Mario shields you drift away but Mario chases you and grabs you. Characters like Kirby wouldn't be a problem but Mario can easily punish us if we make mistakes like that.

Other Stuff: Mario's fireballs are not a threat because MK has the most jumps in the game, abuse this if they decide to pressure you with F balls they'll have no choice but to approach and change up their game. M-Nado and Side Special beats F-Balls too i would recommend using M-Nado in mid range, not only will Mario not be able to react but you'll also dish out more damage minimum being 15% if mashed well enough(Side special shouldn't be used at all offensively it isn't safe).

Stages: Our recovery options are flexible thanks to Dimensional Cape, stages such as Smashville,Battlefield,Town and City are perfect for MK. Not only can he ignore F-Balls easier due to platforms but also use platforms to avoid punishment after M-Nado's ending lag and use Dimensional Cape onto a platform the Mario player won't expect. Any stage with platforms will benefit MK greatly.

My Thoughts: I think the match up is even or at least slightly in our favor, weakness such as Mario being below us and his U-Smash beating anything we throw out can be avoided by mixing up landings. You can stall in the air with your jumps, use Dimensional cape onto the stage but far enough so the Mario player won't punish, head straight for the ledge, etc. Keep them guessing.

Despite Mario's insane Down throw combo from 0-45% we can also dish out damage by baiting air dodges and getting the most out of our Dash attacks and Down throws. Down throw into Shuttle loop = 22% and in mid percents Down throw to M-Nado gives us = 26%.

Our kill options are better if you recovery properly Fair shouldn't even be a problem, we have Dash attack to Shuttle loop at high percents while Mario doesn't have reliable kill set ups. I would stay just outside of Mario's range and then punish what ever he throws out with a DA or Grab, if Mario approaches us we can beat his DA with Dtilt if time correctly or simply use M-Nado and get easy percentage.

------------------------------------------------

I'm not gonna do the 50:50 raito's people do with match ups because i don't know how that stuff works. If there's anything missing in my post or if anything is false please tell me since its my first time doing something like this.
 
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heliface

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Is it possible for mk to beat falcon? He seems to lack the priority, speed, and range to do so.
 

busken

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Is it possible for mk to beat falcon? He seems to lack the priority, speed, and range to do so.
In my opinion, I think Meta Knight's only weakness against falcon is his lightweight and the ability for him to get juggled easily. However, once Falcon is offtstage a good meta knight should be able to convert that into a kill.
 

rabbits

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Is it possible for mk to beat falcon? He seems to lack the priority, speed, and range to do so.
Could you be a bit more specific about what you had problems with? Falcon's range honestly isn't that great, and MK's is about average. MK's has disjoints on most of his moves, as well. Speed shouldn't be an issue either. MK's pretty fast, so I don't see Falcon having a huge advantage there.
 
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warionumbah2

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MK vs Falcom is them being in neutral, baiting each other out for any slight movement then punish. In the neutral game Falcon players will use DD,SH Bair,SHNair etc to bait a reaction allowing them to come at us SH Bair can act as a hit confirm then he can follow up..

We both play pretty similarly, our DA and throws combo into other moves nicely as well as kill moves, we both lack projectiles too. Difference is MK usually stays at a fix distance away from the opponent in the neutral game since he's only placed 9th in dash speed while Falcon is 2nd so he can keep it safe from the distance.

On ground our best bet is D-Smash,Dtilt and Mach Tornado it can catch Falcon if he comes at us and give us nice percentage, Dtilt is our fastest ground move and most useful for combo starting. Falcons gentlemen comes out insanely fast so we have to compete with something just as fast.

Dash grabs should not be used it isn't safe, the end lag of his dash grab is short but Falcon is so fast that he can get a DA on you and rack up damage. That's why D-Smash is better. it sends Falcon into our territory: the ledge and off stage. This is one of those match ups where we have to get Falcon off stage, it comes out fast and has low cool down.
In my opinion, I think Meta Knight's only weakness against falcon is his lightweight and the ability for him to get juggled easily. However, once Falcon is offtstage a good meta knight should be able to convert that into a kill.
^^^^^^^^^
We can gimp Falcon like its no ones business but he can rack up so much damage faster than us with Uair strings and then kill us super early with Raptor boost. MK is light so his vertical resistance isn't good so moves such as Uair,RB,U-Smash are dangerous. Would say its in our favor but due to MK strong off stage game and and already amazing ground game, falcon is practically helpless off stage and during juggles he has a very hard time gettiing out of his disadvantage state unlike MK who has 6 jumps and DC.

Here's my thoughts on MK MU across the board.

*Without customs of course*
Huge Advantage (70:30)
:4littlemac:
Advantage (60:40)
:rosalina::4villager::4lucina::4drmario::4bowser::4charizard::4zelda::4tlink::4bowserjr::4ness:
Slight Advantage (55:45)
:4kirby::4link::4lucario::4marth::4falco::4rob::4robinm::4myfriends::4samus::4jigglypuff::4sheik::4olimar::4wiifit::4falcon::4pit::4darkpit::4dedede::4palutena:
Even (50:50)
:4pikachu::4metaknight::4mario::4fox::4luigi:
Slight Disadvantage (45:55)
:4dk::4pacman::4ganondorf::4zss::4diddy:
Disadvantage (40:60)

Huge Disadvantage (30:70)
:4sonic:

lack of mu experience outside of FG: :4wario2::4greninja::4shulk::4yoshi::4megaman::4peach:
 
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rabbits

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MK vs Falcon is mostly them being in neutral, baiting each other out for any slight movement then punish. In the neutral game Falcon players will use DD,SH Bair,SHNair etc to bait a reaction allowing them to come at us SH Bair can act as a hit confirm then he can follow up..

We both play pretty similarly, our DA and throws combo into other moves nicely as well as kill moves, we both lack projectiles too. Difference is MK usually stays at a fix distance away from the opponent in the neutral game since he's only placed 9th in dash speed while Falcon is 2nd so he can keep it safe from the distance.

On ground our best bet is D-Smash,Dtilt and Mach Tornado it can catch Falcon if he comes at us and give us nice percentage, Dtilt is our fastest ground move and most useful for combo starting. Falcons gentlemen comes out insanely fast so we have to compete with something just as fast.

Dash grabs should not be used it isn't safe, the end lag of his dash grab is short but Falcon is so fast that he can get a DA on you and rack up damage. That's why D-Smash is better. it sends Falcon into our territory: the ledge and off stage. This is one of those match ups where we have to get Falcon off stage, it comes out fast and has low cool down.

^^^^^^^^^
We can gimp Falcon like its no ones business but he can rack up so much damage faster than us with Uair strings and then kill us super early with Raptor boost. MK is light so his vertical resistance isn't good so moves such as Uair,RB,U-Smash are dangerous. Would say its in Falcons favor but due to MK strong off stage game and ledge counter options its only in his favor by a little bit. Just gotta play the neutral game better and try and rack up percent so you'll have a safer time gimping him.

Here's my thoughts on MK MU across the board.

*Without customs of course*
Positive::4bowserjr::4charizard::4darkpit::4dedede::4kirby::4jigglypuff::4littlemac::4greninja::4miisword::4falco::4duckhunt::4gaw::4zelda::4link::4drmario::4tlink::4samus::4lucina::4marth::4palutena::4peach::4rob::4robinm::4villager::4wiifit::4lucario:

Negative: :4ganondorf::4bowser::4falcon::4olimar::4ness::4dk::4fox::4myfriends::rosalina::4wario2::4yoshi::4zss::4megaman:

Hard as hell MU: :4sonic::4sheik::4diddy::4pikachu::4luigi:

Even: :4metaknight::4mario::4pit:

No MU experience: :4shulk::4miigun::4miibrawl::mewtwopm:

I think his MU spread is positive overall. Positive section ranges from slightly in our favor or out right in our favor, Negatives are from slightly in their favor we got tools that helps us compete with these but we can't just use those tools as an excuse to say he beats them. Even and Hard as hell MU are self explanatory, unless your Mk is on point i suggest getting a secondary(only if you play competitive and really want to win). Other than sword fighter i got no experience against Mii's and i haven't really played Shulk that much so i don't wanna say until I'm confident.
I agree for the most part, but what makes you think Pikachu is bad for us? I remember hearing a Pika main say that the MU was pretty even.
 

warionumbah2

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I agree for the most part, but what makes you think Pikachu is bad for us? I remember hearing a Pika main say that the MU was pretty even.
His combo game is insane at low percents for starters, utilt into uair fast fall all grab down throw and repeat. Thunderjolt gives him more stage control we can take to the skies but then what? Pikachu can punish our fast fall dair or mach tornado using down smash or hit us with a raw up smash. Sometimes mach tornado and up smash whiffs due to his small profile, I can use mach tornado on the ground so it can hit (i usually do a small hop before using it) but that means I have to suffer with the end lag IF pikachu shields it or avoid it with his small stature. His nair is also a good combo breaker.

Maybe I exaggerated his placement I do feel pikcachu has the advantage in the MU.
 

busken

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His combo game is insane at low percents for starters, utilt into uair fast fall all grab down throw and repeat. Thunderjolt gives him more stage control we can take to the skies but then what? Pikachu can punish our fast fall dair or mach tornado using down smash or hit us with a raw up smash. Sometimes mach tornado and up smash whiffs due to his small profile, I can use mach tornado on the ground so it can hit (i usually do a small hop before using it) but that means I have to suffer with the end lag IF pikachu shields it or avoid it with his small stature. His nair is also a good combo breaker.

Maybe I exaggerated his placement I do feel pikcachu has the advantage in the MU.
@Psyant actually thinks the Pikachu MK matchup is pretty even or even slightly in MK favor 55:45 he claims.
 

Katakiri

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I guess I'll break-down what I have long considered to be one of MK's best match-ups:
:4metaknight: Vs :rosalina:

Pros:
  • MK has 4 tools that kill Luma anytime it respawns: Dash Attack, Up-Throw, Drill Rush, and Dimensional Cape Slash. To back up for a second, yes, MK's two best tools on the ground, Dash Attack & Dash Grab, setup Luma for a KO. There's very little that Rosalina can do to stop MK from KOing Luma and even if you get punished for the attack, it's worth the trade to have 14+ seconds of Luma sitting out (usually 17 seconds with how slowly Luma falls to the blast zone.)
  • Rosalina spends most of this MU without a Luma. She doesn't have the reach she usually has and is missing roughly a 3rd of her damage output.
  • Rosalina has very long attack animations that normally work in her favor but MK's Dimensional Cape lets him just ignore moves like F-Smash and Luma Shot and punish her for it. This works especially well against her ledge guarding options.
  • Rosalina's N-Air can be punished with a Grounded Shuttle Loop OoS for a KO.
  • Mach Tornado shield-pokes Rosalina fairly reliably due to her large size and Nado's immense shield-pressure. The final hit of Nado can also KO Luma.
  • Rosalina can't juggle MK like she can other characters. Decent air speed, 5 mid-air jumps, and Dimensional Cape as a landing option bypasses just about any juggling attempt.
  • Rosalina herself is very prone to juggling. I think it's common knowledge that Rosalina has trouble landing in general but MK's Dash Grab, Dash Attack, and the combos he gets off them can really keep Rosalina airborne.
  • Rosalina is also a light-weight on top of being floaty which makes Shuttle Loop a deadly tool for picking off a stock while juggling her.
  • Rosalina's tall so our Up-Smash out of a dash will actually hit her and KO her at around 110-120% if she whiff a move, jumps, or tries to land.
  • It is criminally easy for MK to gimp Rosalina off-stage. MK's 6 jumps, N-Air, and B-Air's lingering hitboxes can really punish her predictable recovery.
Cons:
  • Rosalina's KO options are safer to throw out than MK's overall.
  • Rosalina out-reaches MK and beats MK in the air.
  • Star Bits and Jabs from a manually-placed Luma works well at keeping MK at bay on the ground and Luma beats MK's air-game if you force him to jump. (Beware Dimensional Cape Slash tho as that will KO the Luma)
  • The best way, and practically the only way, to keep Luma safe is to always have hitboxes out when MK approaches but don't over-commit as MK will Dimensional Cape Slash for it.
  • Dimensional Cape can be baited when MK's on the ledge and punished hard by Rosalina.
  • MK is a light-weight as well.
All things considered, I believe this MU is a solid 60-40 in MK's favor. MK has every tool any character could ask for when fighting Rosalina: Speed, multiple options to off Luma, gimping tools, anti-juggling tools, his own juggling tools, a solid punish to Rosalina's N-Air, Nado, and reliable ways of KOing off the top both on the ground and in the air.

This video was a while ago but once I wake up (30 seconds into the video) I put into practice a lot of what I was talking about here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrS7O4ew5gY
 

warionumbah2

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Dash attack to Shuttle Loop can also kill early depending on the stage, her being light and a big target is helpful. Watch the video and you killed Rosalina with 120% while she was at 85%, very interesting.

Our DA comes out so fast that it can punish moves such as dtilt, being 9th fastest has its perks you basically don't want to run into hitboxes nor challenge them just punish every move she does with DA because dash grab isn't that safe tbh.
 
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busken

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For the sake of better organization and discussion, I have decided to use per week format. Once we have a general Idea of the match-up I will post a quick summary in the OP and give credit respectively. To start week 1, I would like to have everybody's say so please vote down below about who you would like to discuss and I will make the post about it, you can recommend up to 3 characters.
 

warionumbah2

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You know what scratch my previous post, the guy below me is right. We should tackle the mainstream characters and work our way down to the not so good ones.

It would be helpful if more MK mains contributed, best way for everyone to input their thoughts is by dojng the most common characters that appear in the competitive scene.
 
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AmishTechnology

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If we go weekly, most sensible way to organize the MU is to go off by character popularity. Diddy, Sheik, Sonic, etc. If you go randomly or put some obscure characters in, no one plays with or plays against such characters and thus there won't really be much discussion in the first place... and people will sorely be lacking the MU reading material on characters that are actually big tournament threats in the first place.

The Rosalina and Luma board (as well as many other boards) is kind of doing the MUs randomly, and it really hurts, the guy hosting them refuses to switch it around too. I don't really care too much to learn how to fight against Bowser or Wario when approximately one other person in the world actually plays those characters and knows the MU... The discussions often feel shoddy and full of guesswork at the moment, lots of blank statements like "Yeah, this match up goes to whoever plays a lot better than the other." I want to learn how to fight the big names like Diddy and Sheik and Sonic with Rosa.
 
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Exdeath

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The sonic mu discussion is over. I already stated that as the meta grows and evolves we will touchback on previous matchups. I don't undestand why you would post about sonic when the title and discussion topic is right above you. It's good for you to voice your thoughts but when it's off-topic you can make thoughts unorganized and disorient users.
I understand your perspective, but I was responding to a post that was less than a week old and hadn't really entered this thread before.
 

busken

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warionumbah2

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Well, apparently @ FullMoon FullMoon briefly stole my name, because I got an alert saying @ busken busken quoted my
post but he didn't.
He edited the post, basically Up Throw isn't a useful tool as a kill move since it kills above 170% for most characters. He's got better moves at his disposal for kills, in rage why go for up throw when you got rage tornado that kills sooner by at least 20-30%?
 
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