Meta Knight Match-up Discussion 3 | Luigi

[Katakiri]

Welcome to our Luigi match-up discussion!

"Bang bang."

Discuss character strengths, weaknesses, ground-game, air-game, and all things Weegee vs Bats here.​

Got questions, opinions, or suggestions you want to share about other characters? Head over to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory Thread (Coming Soon!) or the Meta Knight Social/General Discussion; we're more than happy to help you.​

Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forums.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.03 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

Frame Data to expand your mind!:​

|Hit Frames|Hit Frames
Jab | 6?, HYAYAYAYAYAYA, 30 | 2-3, 3-4, 6-7
Dash Attack | 7-11 | 4, ?, 48*
F-Tilt | 6, 12, 17 | 5-7
U-Tilt | 8-10, 8-14, 11-14 | 5-10
D-Tilt | 3-4 | 5-8
Side Smash | 24 | 12-13
Up Smash | 8, 12, 17 | 9-13
Down Smash | 4, 9 | 6-7, 14-15
N-Air | 6-7, 8-20 | 3-5, 6-31
F-Air | 9, 12, 15 | 7-10
B-Air | 7-8, 13-14, 20-21 | 6-7
U-Air | 6 | 5-7, 8-11
D-Air | 4 | 10, 11-14
Grab | 7-8 | 6-7
Dash Grab | 9-10 | 8-9
Pivot Grab | 9-10 | 9-10

*There's no data for Luigi's dash attack other than the first hit on frame 4 and the last hit on frame 48.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I think the match-up is about even, Luigi has an excellent grab game, just like MK, so its down to the grab wars.

EDIT: Shouldn't we make all these into one big thread, just to be organized? I mean, if in 2 years I'm like "Oh, whats the Luigi match-up?" I could check the big thread of all the match-ups, or have to dig through pages and pages to find one (Or just search it). Also, if some big meta thing is discovered for Luigi, we couldn't say anything about it on an ancient thread. It just would look neater in one big discussion.

 

[ItoI6]

I'm normally not a fan of going for anything less than guaranteed damage, but some luigi players will always mash A to nair out of combos so at lowish percents I would try walking under him and shielding after a down throw or dash attack to shieldgrab an airdodge or attack. If they just jump out it still puts Luigi in a bad place because of his poor airspeed so its still good for mk either way. If MK lands upair at very low percents make sure you fastfall below Luigi after the move completes and don't end up inside of his body, because Luigi can nair before MK can move. If your spacing is correct you can just upair again and even though it's not a true combo there isn't really anything Luigi can do aside from jumping out.

It's very bad if MK misses shuttle loop on stage so I really wouldn't use it unless you can grab the ledge after or you know its going to hit. If you're feeling kinda iffy if dthrow-shuttle loop is going to combo (at about 70ish%) then definitely just wait for the airdodge, use fthrow if you're still sliding from dash grab, or use upthrow or backthrow for damage (I feel this is definitely a problem for MK users, people keep using dthrow well after it stops comboing while upthrow and backthrow both just do more hard damage).

If Luigi DIs up and towards MK out of dthrow the combo to upsmash starts to whiff very early with even a tiny bit of rage or percent, so you shouldn't just autopilot and always go for it like against most characters. Just fullhop Nair backwards if they have that DI or maybe even short hop upair and then drop back and wait in shield. Once Luigi hits above 20% or so dthrow-shuttle loop starts being safe on hit.

Luigi likes to recover by going very low with side B and can make it back from the blatzones by jumping and tornadoing from below. Normally most characters can't mess with him when he's that low but honestly if Luigi starts to side b MK should just not be afraid because its pretty free to go down and down air him in the end lag of side b.

Similar to brawl if MK charges an fsmash just outside of getup attack range its very hard for Luigi to get back with his poor airspeed. if Luigi tries to double jump up and fireball MK from below the ledge you can just eat through it with fsmash hitbox and react to whatever he does.

I think Luigi wins because he's just better but honestly its not that bad if MK can make it hard for Luigi to land.

 

[warionumbah2]

Strengths and Weaknesses

• Low cool down on fireball so he can zone MK out effectively giving him the edge in footsies
• High damage output
• Like MK has kill setups
• Better CQC frame data
• Low landing lag on aerials
• Safe F-Smash like MK
• Nair that can potentially break out of uair strings
• Easy to Gimp off stage
• Low traction
• Horrible air mobility
• Not very good ground mobility(His nado can cover that weakness somewhat but i got that covered)
• Short range

Strengths and Weaknesses

• Recovery that bypasses edgeguard attempts and ledge camping
• 6 jumps to stall landings,recovery and fireballs
• Kill setups
• Disjointed hitboxes
• Safe Dash attack
• Similar Dash grab to C.Falcon with the slide effect
• Better mobility all around than Luigi
• Short Range
• Less tools at his disposal in neutral
• End lag on all his aerials so they cannot be used in neutral
• Luigi's jab alone is faster than Dtilt his fastest ground move
• His damage per hit being lower than Luigi
• Lightweight

On Stage Game
Luigi will most likely start with Fireballs in order to approach us safely, MK has answers to his fireballs being: Mach Tornado and his Side B. Both which are unsafe, Mach Tornado its better to use up close than far away due to Luigi's fast cool down after throwing one fireball. But what MK can do is shield a fireball purposely baiting an approach from Luigi then quickly OOS Dtilt. This has a 25% chance of tripping and even without it we can start up a combo, i think Luigi's low traction sends him further than others(need confirming) this can also prevent Luigi from grabbing you.MK Dtilt starts at frame 3 and ends on 4 so we have a lot of room to stop a standing grab or dash grab.

If Luigi notices this and throws another F-Ball we can clank the fireball with another Dtilt, due to how quick it starts and ends we can abuse this and if Luigi approaches and attempts to shield grab we can throw out Dtilt before Luigi grabs us. It requires quick timing but as of now is the most effective way on getting by this huge obstacle in neutral, Dtilt is our main move on the ground since Luigi goes for loads of dash grabs to start his combo's and we have nothing to compete with his fast jab.

Luigi can safely approach from the air using FH Fair then falling with Nair then throwing out his jab, so i advice not attempting to shield grab Luigi if he does that since he can potentially jab then go for a grab. Safest combo to do at low percents is Dash attack into Utilt, Luigi will most likely mash A to throw out a Nair but our disjointed hitboxes beat his aerials out completely. This is also why Uair strings aren't so bad against him since all it really relies on is your reaction time, MK has to put in work to string combo's while Luigi's is honestly simple for example: Utilt strings at low percents, anything out of down throw etc.

The ground game would be pretty even if MK damage per hit were higher, Luigi gets so much reward out of one throw its actually ridiculous. At best one error from Luigi will lead to him gaining above 30% but Luigi can go above and beyond due to how much better his damage per hit is. Dair Zoning is not a good idea since Luigi has the same U-Smash as Mario in terms of how their head works although its not as lethal in terms of killing as it doesn't send MK straight up.

Mach Tornado is very dangerous to use due how hard Luigi punishes, he can SJP most of our errors. Luigi isn't as fast as his brother but it doesn't excuse us to start slacking off and using moves that he can easily shield.

Luigi can use Nado as means to improve his mobility but MK can stop it with his Dtilt, I'll upload a video of me actually abusing it after almost getting demolished on the first game(lucky SD).

Off Stage Game

MK absolutely demolishes in this area, his aerials are all disjointed meaning Luigi can combat us off stage instead he'll need to air dodge. Only thing that can hinder MK off stage is Luigi recovering with Nado which can easily be baited and punished after Luigi does his animation where he sticks his arms out. If Luigi tries to recover horizontally with his Green Missile that too can be baited, MK will be on the ledge waiting so he can fall off and Nair him(Shine Spike). If MK is off stage he can bypass edgeguard attempts using DC but if MK gets too predictable Luigi can punish him, thankfully MK has 4 options to recover(5 if he had his high speed drill custom): SL onto the ledge,DC onto ledge,DC behind Luigi(or on platforms),Side B onto ledge.

Our Bair kills around 80% with no rage and Nair kills around 90 or 100% depending how close you are to the blastzone. We got 6 jumps to abuse off stage and also improve our edge guarding ability, Luigi has horrible air mobility so he won't be going far.

Because of MK good performance off stage comebacks are possible.
I say the MU is 50:50. I cannot excuse on how rewarding Luigi is compared to MK damage wise, we both got reliable kill setups but dominates off stage. Luigi can wall us out with Fballs while we can abuse Dtilt and poke him out, his jab comes out faster than our moves, our Uair beats all his aerials. We go back and forth until we get to the damage and reward department. But then again MK can gimp him offstage.

Opinion: Its one of the more passive aggressive MU against the higher tiers, since we can't go full aggro against Luigi and we must also get though constant fireballs everytime the neutral resets which is pretty damn often. Basically me who loves intense combo matches while going back and forth styling on each other in the process(MK vs C.Falcon being the most enjoyable) I'll say this match up is boring af.

Like @ ItoI6 said don't go for Down throws at high percent, near the ledge Back Throw can kill and Up throw reliably kills above 150% with rage off course 170% without rage. God forbid Luigi lives that long especially with the kill setups and gimps MK can offer.
(Will upload the video when i get the time)

Edit: Opinion changed after playing more games against Luigi.

 

[TriTails]

Well, Luigi's DA is F4, the fastest in the game tied with Fox and Wario. Excellent for surprises and challenging another DA .

Anyway, I don't know much about MK, but I can tell you guys these:
1. Luigi's recovery isn't as flawed if he can recover high and do the Jumpless Cyclone (Assuming he can do one, but high levels Luigi should be able to do this anyway). One trick of recovering when I get predictable is Cyclone really up high, then go for the stage, when just above the ledge, immediately fast-fall and air dodge, then SJP to save myself. SJP has invincibility, so beware. Luigi isn't as easy to gimp as people give him credit for, especially if he mix ups Jumpless Cyclone, Jumped Missile and Jumped Cyclone. Though, still somewhat linear.

2. Luigi combos MK hard (Surprisingly). F-air chaingrab I believe works. D-air chaingrab works, both very damaging combos. MK is light, and he cannot afford to tank all the hits Luigi lands. So the usual rule, DO NAWT GIT GRABBED!

3. He can force approach from MK because his answers to Fireballs are unsafe (Maybe except for D-tilt). and also, Luigi's approach options, while generally poor, can involve a Cyclone. An aerial one can out-prioritize things easily. Not sure if Mk's D-tilt can challenge it, but beware anyway. It is highly punishable, so... well, punish it if you shield... since it beats any defensive options but shields.

4. His aerial mobility is extremely poor, but he has those aerials. His huge F-air deals 9%, U-air deals 11%, killing B-air does whooping 14%, N-air does 12%, and D-air deals 10% meteor and 8% otherwise. His aerials are one of the quickest in the entire game, and he can do 3 F-airs or U-airs in just a single jump. I recommend you use your disjoints well. Though, Luigis generally won't force an aerial battle anyway.

5. His attack speed is one of the fastest, surpassing even his brother. He can jab -> grab if you aren't fast enough. And I don't think MK has any combo breaker he can use (Maybe D-air?). So don't let him take the control.

6. He is somewhat slow, MK outspeeds him. Utilize this well, but don't get pelted by Fireballs.

7. Don't throw your specials around like a madman. A decent Luigi will FJP them, or grab MK, and we all know Luigi's punish game is devastating.

8. Lastly, his traction makes almost every strong attack (Which almost always also enemy's most punishable moves) safe on his shield. So don't be afraid to be aggresive on his shield. Though, obviously don't hit his shield with something like Drill Rush. Beware of PS though.

Well, so in a nutshell, Luigi can dominate on-stage if he plays things right. He can bait approaches with Fireballs, and severe punish game means you make a mistake = Lots of damages. You make another = FJP, and that can mean a stock.

Off-stage, MK wrecks Luigi. Just make sure you don't get hit by fully charged Green Missile (Or worse, misfire) or Cyclone. Beware of his mixups also, he can get there and there before you can even know what is going on with Cyclone.

Oh and also, U-smash can (Somewhat) combo. So you just get an enemy with a sourspotted U-smash, then you nail them again with another. Works best for fast-fallers. D-smash kills (Yeah, back hit), and F-smash is stronk and also safe on (Perfect) shield. So... don't get hit by them?

I don't know about MK enough to give ratios, so I'll leave it to you guys there.

 

[warionumbah2]

Not every luigi player can mash like say for example Boss, if luigi ever airdodged and went for SJP underneath he will get stage spiked and MK having people near the ledge in general is a huge advantage.

Luigi is easy to gimp because MK doesn't need to chase him down he watches from the ledge, I will upload the video because I almost made a comeback because of off stage dominance and almost 3 stocked the player after because I knew what worked on Luigi.

I literaly said what you said in 2. :/

Already covered 3 in my post. Cyclone is not a threat since a mere dtilt can stop it.

His aerials are good on stage and during combo's but off stage disjoint > mario bros.

Everything else I literally covered in my post, anyone can dominate the ground if the player uses them right but this is about the characters and it doesn't help anyone come to a logical conlusion. And luigi doesn't dominate MK on the ground its a slight advantage to luigi but off stage is heavily in MK favor.

@ Mazdamaxsti why do you think its even?

 

[TriTails]

How does SJP-ing below the ledge is a bad thing and can get you stagespiked? False does it all the time (At least, from what I saw in vs NAKAT). SJP has invincibility, and I don't see MK attacking Luigi out of it. It snaps to the ledge.

MU are based on high levels play on players with equal skill levels with complete master if the character, and Jumpless Cyclone is neccesary for Luigi mastery.

I literally posted my post without thinking and just let out what is in my head. Apologizes if you already covered them up,

You sure D-tilt beats Cyclone? I know pretty darn well on how much priority Cyclone has. Unless you got a priority move like Jiggly or Yoshi N-air, I don't think you can out-prioritize it.

Though, curious on what video you have. I'd like to see D-tilt beating Cyclone.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Not every luigi player can mash like say for example Boss, if luigi ever airdodged and went for SJP underneath he will get stage spiked and MK having people near the ledge in general is a huge advantage.

Luigi is easy to gimp because MK doesn't need to chase him down he watches from the ledge, I will upload the video because I almost made a comeback because of off stage dominance and almost 3 stocked the player after because I knew what worked on Luigi.

I literaly said what you said in 2. :/

Already covered 3 in my post. Cyclone is not a threat since a mere dtilt can stop it.

His aerials are good on stage and during combo's but off stage disjoint > mario bros.

Everything else I literally covered in my post, anyone can dominate the ground if the player uses them right but this is about the characters and it doesn't help anyone come to a logical conlusion. And luigi doesn't dominate MK on the ground its a slight advantage to luigi but off stage is heavily in MK favor.

@ Mazdamaxsti why do you think its even?

While Luigi's recovery isn't the best, Luigi has more on stage tools, with a good projectile, a combo breaker (Down-B comes out really quick), he is floaty, which means you'll be chasing him a lot in the air (No dash attack or grab to start combos basically), he also has missfire (Meta Knight doesn't have much survivabilty, worse than Kirby), and more.

Meta Knight dominates with offstage and can get easy off stage gimps. Basically, Luigi is better on the stage, but it's even since Meta Knight dominates off the stage.

 

[warionumbah2]

How does SJP-ing below the ledge is a bad thing and can get you stagespiked? False does it all the time (At least, from what I saw in vs NAKAT). SJP has invincibility, and I don't see MK attacking Luigi out of it. It snaps to the ledge.

MU are based on high levels play on players with equal skill levels with complete master if the character, and Jumpless Cyclone is neccesary for Luigi mastery.

I literally posted my post without thinking and just let out what is in my head. Apologizes if you already covered them up,

You sure D-tilt beats Cyclone? I know pretty darn well on how much priority Cyclone has. Unless you got a priority move like Jiggly or Yoshi N-air, I don't think you can out-prioritize it.

Though, curious on what video you have. I'd like to see D-tilt beating Cyclone.

Was nakat using a character with a hard hitting bair that has lingering disjointed hitboxes? How many frames is it invincible for? You gotta give me frame data man. Honestly no offense but you won't see MK do alot things since he's a rare character and you said yourself you don't know much about him.

But not everyone can use it effectively due to how only boss from what I know can utilize it I see no reason why MK should worry about it. Even so one of members already got all of luigi's recoveries on lock its just that he has yet to share his knowledge, he also did well against boss so there's that.

Nah its cool bruh.

I swear to God I will upload it, I always do this I say im gonna do something but I always do it late only way i can overcome it, is by doing it early: college, dates, job, meeting friends at cinema. I suck at it, I'll try to record it tomorrow morning. >-<

@ Mazdamaxsti MK is heavier than kirby so he's more durable.

 

[Katakiri]

I can confirm that D-Tilt beats Cyclone. It seems like D-Tilt just hits under Cyclone's hitbox tho I have been able to make them clash as well. Either way, D-Tilt answers Cyclone.

Gimping Luigi isn't too difficult. Get to know his distance for Green Missile and use your 5 jumps to wait for an opportunity to D-Air. Not F-Air, but D-Air (B-Air could kill so that can work too.); smart Luigi DI the F-Air to gain height and usually will just reset the situation with us having less jumps left or it will even give Luigi the opportunity to recover overhead while we're forced back to the ledge to refresh our jumps. D-Air sends Luigi horizontally and even allows us to chase him for a follow-up. Worst case scenario, it's a misfire but it's worth the risk to take stocks off Luigi.

Also, with how telegraphed Missile is, we can reliably Drill Rush you into the blast zone for the final stock for style. If you Missile high, we don't even have to risk losing our stock to do it.

His Up-B only has invincibility for the first half the duration of the move. If you force Luigi to recover very low, a well-placed N-Air or F-Air can stage spike before he snaps to ledge. Not too hard considering how much pressure MK can put on Luigi; I think Boss recovered low every time against me. There's also a universal two frame window of vulnerability before any character ledge-snaps, Luigi also ledge snaps lower than most recoveries. Just remember that SJP's hitbox is most prominent in front of Luigi so N-Air very slightly behind where he will be instead of directly over top of him.


Also Meta Knight doesn't do as poorly on-stage as you think, @ TriTails All Fire Balls do is force MK into the air, which is perfectly fine. He doesn't even have to approach if you Fire Ball should he have a lead. 6 jumps and a shield weathers any projectile storm and the only place Fireball spam would be viable anyhow is FD since platforms and MK is a winning combination against projectiles. But still, while MK might evade Fire Balls entirely, pressure is pressure and telling MK where he can't be is always a plus.

MK and Luigi go very even on-stage. You get combos off Grab, we get combos off Dash Attack and Dash Grab. We both can just pick up an aerial string if we catch each other sleeping in the air. Our attack reach on the ground is about even too. Meta Knight has a stronger mid-range game with Dash Attack and Dash Grab being as fast as they are, D-Tilt keeping Luigi from approaching, and his option to hover D-Air and land at any point with a grab from fast fall. But Luigi is however more damaging blow for blow, Jab pressure, has the aforementioned Fire Ball pressure, and his KO set-ups are much safer than MK's. That doesn't mean MK can't KO, we get KOs off grab too and Up-Smash KOs from a juggle, MK's options are just less safe than Luigi's, aside from MK's F-Smash, that move is just safe. Neither character has too big of an advantage over the other if both players are playing cautiously.

Aside from gimping, the other place MK shines is that MK can juggle Luigi really easily as nothing Luigi has out-ranges MK Up-Air, Up-Tilt, & Up-Smash. Air dodge is the only option and that can be punished with another combo or Nado into a juggle if predicted. Dash Attack and Throws set up juggles should Luigi let his guard down.

From short hop however, MK and Luigi are evenly matched. It's very difficult to say whose F-Air would land first and Luigi might end up sticking his feet into the grinder if he B-Air's against MK's swordplay but with Luigi hitting for 14% a kick, it's not always worth it for MK to risk a trade. As long as Luigi doesn't jump too high (juggle scenario again) short hopping can work well to get past MK's D-Tilt poking.

imo it's no better than 50:50 and no worse than 45:55 Luigi's favor, I'm leaning more toward the 50:50 tho as these characters are very evenly matched in the neutral game but shine in one area or another that could lead to a KO.
Talking about this just makes me want to play Boss again now that I know the MU. I think, win or lose, we could have a really hype set.

 

[warionumbah2]

My only beef with luigi is how much he gets out of one throw, mario isn't a problem since he can't combo out of down throw effectively after a certain percentage.

Going with yours and mazd reasoning I would narrow my ratio to 50:50

Edit: nvm katakiri confirmed it. Dtilt does clank or beat grounded tornado, no point in posting the video now.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Was nakat using a character with a hard hitting bair that has lingering disjointed hitboxes? How many frames is it invincible for? You gotta give me frame data man. Honestly no offense but you won't see MK do alot things since he's a rare character and you said yourself you don't know much about him.

But not everyone can use it effectively due to how only boss from what I know can utilize it I see no reason why MK should worry about it. Even so one of members already got all of luigi's recoveries on lock its just that he has yet to share his knowledge, he also did well against boss so there's that.

Nah its cool bruh.

I swear to God I will upload it, I always do this I say im gonna do something but I always do it late only way i can overcome it, is by doing it early: college, dates, job, meeting friends at cinema. I suck at it, I'll try to record it tomorrow morning. >-<

@ Mazdamaxsti MK is heavier than kirby so he's more durable.

I forgot the video, but the series is Smash Science, and the results put Meta Knight worse than Kirby, weight isn't everything.

 

[warionumbah2]

I forgot the video, but the series is Smash Science, and the results put Meta Knight worse than Kirby, weight isn't everything.

FYI MK and Kirby have the same survivability, its definitely not worse than kirby that's for sure. And omfg MK has the 6th strongest u-smash in the game(knockback wise not damage), even when mewtwo comes he'll still be top 10.

 

[Zonez]

FYI MK and Kirby have the same survivability, its definitely not worse than kirby that's for sure. And omfg MK has the 6th strongest u-smash in the game(knockback wise not damage), even when mewtwo comes he'll still be top 10.

He also apparently has the 5th best roll, which I wouldn't doubt. It's pretty fast.

 

[NairWizard]

Also Meta Knight doesn't do as poorly on-stage as you think, @ TriTails All Fire Balls do is force MK into the air, which is perfectly fine. He doesn't even have to approach if you Fire Ball should he have a lead. 6 jumps and a shield weathers any projectile storm and the only place Fireball spam would be viable anyhow is FD since platforms and MK is a winning combination against projectiles. But still, while MK might evade Fire Balls entirely, pressure is pressure and telling MK where he can't be is always a plus.

You can d-tilt Fireballs; no reason to take to the air. Luigi doesn't get enough time to grab you after a d-tilt clanks with a Fireball. Pivot f-tilt should also work if you want to step back.

 

[warionumbah2]

Coming back to this mu I've found a good CP stage against luigi: Kongo Jungle 64

We can camp luigi hard on this, his ground mobility is bad his aerial mobility is worse. At best luigi will catch you with a tornado but the damage output on that thing is laughable.

Because you can go from under stage to recover, MK can throw hitboxes just above the stage while being safe from underneath. It takes 2 jumps for MK to reach the top platforms and same goes for luigi but hes restricted to fewer options after his 2nd jump unlike MK, we have multiple jumps and bettter air mobility not to mention dimensional cape being a good landing option especially with the rotating platforms in the center.

On this stage I can confidently say its 60:40 in our favor. Some tourneys don't allow this stage to be legal which is ****ing gay imo, but if it isn't take him to this stage.

 

[Exdeath]

Most regions in the U.S. don't have KJ legal -- primarily because of the barrel.