2013 Community Tier List

[Purpletuce]

Yeah I know. I made 'tiers' as well. (empty lines)

 

[FourStar]

Yeah I know. I made 'tiers' as well. (empty lines)

wait can i see your's? im too lazy to look through the whole thing

 

[bubbaking]

Fox can gimp about as well as Falco. Falco's main gimp move, D-air, gimps with a 12x larger margin for error than Fox's (shine). CG only really matters on Fox vs. Falco on FD, everywhere else it is only a slight advantage. Fox's camping is easier to punish than Falco's (his lasers don't have hitstun). Fox doesn't have a way better recovery, his DJ is worse and his side B is slower, but he has longer upB and sideB, so Falco gets more versatility at the cost of a little length. Falco's recovery is only slightly worse IMO.

What the heck? Where did the "12x larger margin for error" come from? That just sounds ridiculous. Fox certainly gets better combos out of his uthrow than Falco does; the spacee CG is simply the most extreme display of this. Fox's camping is NOT easier to punish because Fox's DD and platform mobility is so good. Ever heard of DD camping? Lasers aren't everything. If anything, you should be arguing that Falco has a better approach (which is arguable) because of lasers, not that he has less punishable camping. Fox's recovery is objectively better than Falco's. Same recover angles, greater distance, protective hitbox on FireFox's start-up. I'm not sure about Illusion being slower than Phantasm, but since it's longer, Fox's Illusion has more controlled variability over the distance traveled, thanks to cancels. The only thing better about Falco's recovery is the meteor he gets out of it. Fox can also combo his upB into uair for a reversal KO and he can combo his sideB into an uair or even a usmash (can be manipulated through Illusion cancels).

There is a reason that Fox mains occasionally become Falco mains, and Falco mains rarely become Fox mains. It is similar to the reason you see non-spacie players become spacie players, but you don't really see spacie players become non-spacie players.

This is just incorrect. Eggm was a Falco main who switched over to mostly (read: solely) Fox, becoming one of Fox's best users. If anything, many players use the two of them in tandem; they don't switch completely from one to the other. Mango's a great example of this.

We shouldn't have any characters in S tier, we're only supposed to post their order

This is also incorrect. Sveet stated in the OP that our lists may have tier gaps, but his compilation won't include or factor them. For the sake of discussion, I actually like the lists that do have gaps in them as it makes it clear which chars someone feels are definitely stronger than certain other chars.

That's a pretty crazy argument.. Just because he's the only one that plays Jiggs doesn't mean other players can't make correct observation for Jiggs potential. You don't have to play her yourself, playing against her at the top level is already a good indication. This has been done already for years so it's not like the Jiggs matchup is an unknown one, I mean we already collected data from many players with most matchups anyways. If all top 4 Falcons say that Jiggs slightly beats Falcon then Id take their word for it over 1 guy who might have a bias towards his character.

First of all, I never said that Hbox's opinion was any more valid than anyone else's (like the "top 4 Falcons" that you mention). He is subject to character bias, and this problem is magnified in his case because he is Puff's only top user. What I said was "what business does ANYONE have trying to place Jiggs on a tier list?"

Secondly, as I said, because Hbox is the only player to play Jiggs at top level, we have no way of knowing exactly what the optimal method of playing Jiggs is. Yes, Hbox's method works and it nets him tourneys, but is it the BEST way? As good as he is, Hbox has still dropped sets to Mango, Armada, and even KK. His losses to Armada have gone so far as to make many believe that YL really does beat Jiggs. However, what if the BEST way of playing Jiggs would have never succumbed to those MUs or playstyles? We could never know without Hbox changing the way he plays or another great player picking up the char (i.e. we need Mango to go back to using this character seriously ). If that is the case, then we really know nothing about Puff's MUs or her potential.

Anyway, most of that stuff is somewhat arbitrary. I guess what I'm really getting at is that Puff has given literally NO ONE a reason to be put her lower in the tier list than where she his now. She could honestly be anywhere from #1-3 and it wouldn't look bad at all. Results support that and, as far as we know, MUs support that. From what we've seen, she's one of the only two chars in the game that beats Sheik (the other being Fox) and she beats everyone in High Tier (Marth is arguable). She loses to Fox, but we don't even truly know that, as I was elaborating above.

 

[BTmoney]

First of all, I never said that Hbox's opinion was any more valid than anyone else's (like the "top 4 Falcons" that you mention). He is subject to character bias, and this problem is magnified in his case because he is Puff's only top user. What I said was "what business does ANYONE have trying to place Jiggs on a tier list?"

Secondly, as I said, because Hbox is the only player to play Jiggs at top level, we have no way of knowing exactly what the optimal method of playing Jiggs is. Yes, Hbox's method works and it nets him tourneys, but is it the BEST way? As good as he is, Hbox has still dropped sets to Mango, Armada, and even KK. His losses to Armada have gone so far as to make many believe that YL really does beat Jiggs. However, what if the BEST way of playing Jiggs would have never succumbed to those MUs or playstyles? We could never know without Hbox changing the way he plays or another great player picking up the char (i.e. we need Mango to go back to using this character seriously ). If that is the case, then we really know nothing about Puff's MUs or her potential.

Anyway, most of that stuff is somewhat arbitrary. I guess what I'm really getting at is that Puff has given literally NO ONE a reason to be put her lower in the tier list than where she his now. She could honestly be anywhere from #1-3 and it wouldn't look bad at all. Results support that and, as far as we know, MUs support that. From what we've seen, she's one of the only two chars in the game that beats Sheik (the other being Fox) and she beats everyone in High Tier (Marth is arguable). She loses to Fox, but we don't even truly know that, as I was elaborating above.

I agree with all that post except for this part. You just discredited 12 years of metagaming, those who play puff, those who play against puff, and those who theorized her viability. We already have had puffs reach the highest level; Mango of old and Hbox as of late and they have/had drastically different styles. No one knows the optimal way to play any character. We guess, estimate, and try to find correlation.

I think saying no one should try to measure puff is a completely absurd ultimatum.

 

[Purpletuce]

My list from before:

So how exactly will player skill be weighted against their list? Perhaps give them a multiplier based on their skill? Also, do you think any bias will be negated by the size of entries? Do you think you might have an editing phase on the final list? (As in falco scores 1.48 and fox scores 1.4, would that merit a tiebreak discussion?) I'll add stuff here when I'm not in class.



My list:
1. Falco - His ability to control the stage, consistently combo well, win neutral games and dominate the air with his powerful aerials really cover his MUs well. Although he is very exploitable when he is on the defense, he has a many options in his recovery that make up for it (and ability to capitalize on 1frame openings to stat a combo make up for that.) Falco consistenly (across his entire MU spread) maintains his ability to beat anyone he can outplay, giving him no disadvantage while playing against anyone at top level play.
2. Fox - His incredible potential allows him to dominate most MUs, and his incredible speed and power allow him to outright invalidate certain characters. His only flaw is while only the defense he is still exploitable (to a lesser extent than the bird), but he makes up for this with his ability to take huge gains from any openings he can get. (Probably best average MU spread (weighted by popularity)

3. Shiek - Very fundementally sounds character, with a few weaknesses but nothing dealbreaking. Has tons of MUs that are really good for her, probably the best average MU against characters (not weighted by popularity)
4. Puff - Amazing ability to zone, can punish by taking a whole stock whenever she can set up for a rest (constant threat, good for comebacks) doesn't usually have any problem with getting gimped or comboed to hard, and is good at edgeguarding. Although she is very subject to being shut out and has several MUs that are close to even, and a few even/slight losses.
5. Marth - Great range and movement make him amazing at zoning, and he has a ton to gimping/killing power. Unfortunately he can be edgeguarded and comboed pretty hard. Great at walling out floaties, and only has a few hard MUs.
6. Peach - Very consistent, has strong punishes, can overcome all of her problematic MUs decently, has great power and priority, as well as an amazing recovery and is hard to combo. A very solid character overall, I think this is a pretty uncontroversial spot for her.
7. Falcon - He can destroy while on the offense, has great combo and killing power, but gets comboed and edgeduarded pretty hard. He also has trouble getting in against a good amount of characters. He has a ton of potential, but still has limitations.

8. Ice Climbers - Very unique character, I think this is a fair spot to represent their potential, but they aren't understood/developed enough for a definite position.

9. Doc - Ver fundementaly sound character, can gimp pretty well and has decent KO power, lots of solid moves but not particularly remarkable.
10. Pikachu - Has a ton of limitations, and I don't think she is the 10th best character overall, but she is much better at handling spacies than the people below her, who is most of who you fight in tournament anyway. Her MUs against Fox/Falco alone get her this high up.
11. Samus - She is simply not able to keep up with the people on the list above her, but she is definitely still a good character, she just can't really do anything to get her higher up.
12. Ganon - He gets hard countered by very popular characters. He is really solid, but just is too limited to keep up with the top tiers.
13. Mario - Is probably better than 13th, but he isn't doesn't offer much incentive to play him over doc, so he is underdeveloped/underrepresented.

14. Luigi
15. Yoshi - Great movement, solid hits, does a ton of damage, has great KO power, is super hard to kill, doesn't get gimped. He is better than the current tier list shows, esp. With current use of his shield drop to improve his defense, parrying as an amazing reversal option (best in game IMO), and being able to plank with edge-cancelled eggs (one frame vulnerable, sends out ~4 eggs every 3 seconds which can multihit shields and do 13% each). He still has a ton of limitations though.
16. DK
17. YL
18. Link
19. Zelda
20. Ness

21. G&W
22. Mewtwo
23. Roy
24. Kirby
25. Bowser
26. Pichu

Credentials: Took 7th this month and last month in the monthly REVO tournament series, beating Kieth(10th on current Oregon PR), Kendal, Jarod, and others. The last one had 21 entrants and the one before it had around the same amount. My best victory was I 2-0ed a guy named C!z(one of the best in WA, beat Bladewise today) in a $1 MM, but that was only a dollar, and he is overall better than I am (result unlikely to be repeated) . I consider myself comparable in skill to Violence, Ryan (took a friendly off Axe, gotten 3rd in Oregon torunament before). (Note, because I'm saying I'm comparable in skill to these people and citing the best friendly they've ever won, doesn't mean I think that is similar to how good I am, Axe would probably destroy me.) To contact: Bladewise, Eggz, FoosJr

Posting this thread in Oregon's group.

I don't feel like responding to the whole post, Bubbaking, I'm bored about this back and forth. The 12x thing was referring to the active frames for each character's respective gimping moves (Fox's shine is 1 frame, Falco's Dair can kill with any of its 12 frames). I was talking about Falco's lasers being better than Fox's lasers at camping, etc.

 

[The Hooded Informant]

Okay, can someone tell me what this "niche" Young Link has?

Also, characters that are lower tiered have less people to play as them. If people see how great Link and Mewtwo can really be, they could be high tiers in a snap. If people stop playing as Fox and Falco, they would go down to bottom tier.

 

[Yeroc]

Seriously?

 

[The Hooded Informant]

Think thoroughly about it. Much more people play as characters that are EXTREMELY EASY to learn. If they would play with harder to learn characters, there would be a huge difference. None of these tier lists are true because they KEEP ON CHANGING!

If you made a 1v1v1v1 Tier List, there would be a much different outcome.

Hahahahaha...
The only thing worse than knowing when you will be ours...
IS NOT KNOWING!!!

 

[FourStar]

My list from before:



I don't feel like responding to the whole post, Bubbaking, I'm bored about this back and forth. The 12x thing was referring to the active frames for each character's respective gimping moves (Fox's shine is 1 frame, Falco's Dair can kill with any of its 12 frames). I was talking about Falco's lasers being better than Fox's lasers at camping, etc.

great list. the only thing that confused me is that fox is below falco? first off fox has better KOing options then falco and fox also has better recovery by a long shot. another thing is that i think peach should switch places with puff. ever since mango stopped playing puff, she has only been represented by HBOX for winning tourneys.
I do like what you did with pikachu though. his limitations though are not deal breaker with how good he is

 

[MountainGoat]

Can someone ban HoodedInformat already?

 

[PGH Carroll]

lo0o0o0ol this pikachu kid has mewtwo over luigi.

Smashboards.com

 

[BTmoney]

ugh anyone who posts large pictures should just be sentenced to hell, especially when they're not funny

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

lo0o0o0ol this pikachu kid has mewtwo over luigi.

Smashboards.com

I see nothing wrong with that.

Mewtwo for SSS tier

 

[Double Helix]

As for tournament experience, I have none (school Johns), but I watch way too much of this game (including old school). I am also fairly new to the scene. I'm not sure how much consideration this list will get, but here goes.

Sheik - Has the most good match-ups in my opinion. As well as great mobility. Also cant be chain-grabbed by everyone
Fox - He can run, but you can't hide. Laser-camping, best movement options, many KO options. He gets chain-grabbed and has high hit-stun to put him below Sheik.
Falco - Excellent approach options. Shine pillars. Less mobile and less good match-ups than Fox. Same hit-stun and cannot chain-grab spacies like Fox.
Jigglypuff - Just let me rest for a minute. You are at 50% so you died so what does it hurt? I can recover from anything that doesn't kill me. Wall of pain.
Marth - Very good character. Lacks good horizontal recovery options, but sword spacing, Ken combo, and gimp ability.

Peach - Armada. That is probably the entire reasoning I need. He showed us what this character can do.
Captain Falcon - Great combo potential. Really fast, but such a gentleman. Problem is his predictable recovery and sometimes his speed is his ultimate downfall. Sometimes, he has trouble approaching better characters, but Hax manages so everybody else, no Johns.
Ice Climbers - Such a different character and hard to place due to mechanics, but this is probably fair.
Dr. Mario - A good pill game to ease his pain and drug opponents. Very balanced moveset and good KO potential. slight ability to gimp I believe.
Ganondorf - Hits like a train. Slow, but strong. His edge-guards are strong but he gets edge-guarded just as hard due to predictable recovery. His speed makes some of Falcon's match-ups worse, and for Christ's sake, NEVER u-tilt.

Pikachu - Fast little rascal. Don't ever find a Sheik player. Gimp whenever you want. Learn to quick attack. Oh, and sometimes a random up-smash does the job. Good projectile that is really unique (to him and Pichu, I guess) and deceptive recovery.
Mario - Balanced in many ways. Like Doc only their moves just have different properties. I feel it is enough of a difference to have two spots between them. Mario with a doctorate just seems better. Besides, he spent all that time in school. He has to be better right? Really though, his moves seem slightly weaker, the pills are better than fireballs, and sending them straight up cant be meteor cancelled. Doc wins out.
Link - Projectiles everywhere. Deceptively long reach on the grabs. U-tilt combos. Decent aerials. Hookshot recovery. While his recovery can be good with the bomb and hookshot, he has lower KO potential than a sword probably should have. Highest nair priority though, so that's cool.
Luigi - Wavedash options forever. His aerials are really good. Too slippery for his own good sometimes. His projectile only goes straight. His up-b only goes straight up, making for awkward edge-guarding options. Getting any vertical on his tornado is tough for many people. Solid moveset overall though with good options and pretty good KO potential. Taunt that can kill.
Samus - Awkward, but floaty. Really good recovery. Good aerials in every direction. Wavedash back u-tilt. Projectiles. Due to how floaty she is, combo potential is low. Just has really good isolated hits.

Young Link - Lots like Link. Projectiles have different properties. YL is faster and a bit more mobile. Shorter reach on everything though.
Yoshi - Eggstiction II. But really. Good parry game. Hilarious, but good, projectiles. DJC game is good. Lacks an up-b that gains much (if any) distance. Surprisingly mobile and tough to use at a high level. Enjoy never using side-b.
Donkey Kong - Grab, cargo, up-throw, up-air. Pretty decent aerials. Good horizontal recovery. Long reach. His speed and lack of mobility hurts a lot though. Best taunt in the game.
Mewtwo - Super floaty. Not the best moveset, but Taj got it to work. I really don't know enough about this character.
Ness - Super fast. Good wavedash mobility. Best recovery out of the (current) lower tier characters. His reach is a bit small and he can't grab anything, but his aerials are really good and low to the ground due to DJC.
Zelda - Options are pretty low IMO. Cosmo did it best, but mostly mind-games and space for that fair or bair.

Mr. Game & Watch
Roy
Pichu
Bowser
Kirby

Okay, so I got lazy on the bottom five, but I really didn't have much to say about them anyways. I may edit to add to them if I ever feel like it. I hope my list isn't just wrong in most of your eyes.

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

......... this thread is butt

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

......... this thread is butt

your butt is butt

 

[Purpletuce]

I think I've already talked quite a bit about Falco vs. Fox. . . yeah, they both have tons of great things, and depending on how you look at either, you can easily make arguments for one being greater than the other. I simply think Falco is better. If you really want to talk about it, PM me or something.

Luigi > > > > Mewtwo.

Sorry Mewtwo fans.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Luigi > > > > Mewtwo.

Sorry Mewtwo fans.

Does that even need to be said? Anyone who thinks otherwise is crazy.

That being said, obviously I'm bat**** insane.

(Mewtwo4SSSSSStier)

 

[Bones0]

We'll never know how good Mewtwo can be until Taj decides to play like a ***** and time people out by running away with teleports all game (so far we've only had to the pleasure of seeing this on Hyrule Temple).

 

[Senortesta]

Aside from the tier list, I think it may also be time for an updated matchup guide. Axe has shown that pikachu vs spacies isn't 20/80 and should probably be closer t 60/40. And I think Shiek- Doc should be a 50/50. Can someone start a new thread about that?

 

[BTmoney]

Aside from the tier list, I think it may also be time for an updated matchup guide. Axe has shown that pikachu vs spacies isn't 20/80 and should probably be closer t 60/40. And I think Shiek- Doc should be a 50/50. Can someone start a new thread about that?

Good god no. Pikachu now counters spacies and Sheik goes even with Doc? ****. Yeah the MU chart is archaic but those numbers are horribly wrong.

 

[BluEG]

lo0o0o0ol this pikachu kid has mewtwo over luigi.

Smashboards.com

Lolrite?

Credentials: usually place in the middle at FL tourneys, one of the top players in Gainesville, I play with Hbox on a weekly basis too.

1. Falco - I place him over fox because his potential is more humanly possible to reach than his counterpart
2. Fox
3. Sheik
4. Marth
5. Peach
6. Puff
7. Falcon
8. ICs
9. Samus
10. Luigi (see below)
11. Ganon
12. Doc
13. Pikachu
14. Mario
15. DK
16. Link
17. Young Link
18. Ness (Hbox has opened my eyes)
19. Yoshi
20. Mewtwo
21. Zelda
22. Game and watch
23. Roy
24. Bowser
25. Kirby
26. Pitchy




I'm going to try not to speak in bias of Luigi (which is hard because I'm biased for him).

The character is extremely unique, and unless you have played with a top luigi extensively or you have extensive experience with Luigi, the scope of his potential is hard to grasp.

He has some intricacies that exist on no other characters that become apparent only when he is played a top level. A Luigi played at low-mid level is not very good, in fact, this Luigi is quite awful. However, there is a huge jump in effectiveness from a mid-level luigi to a high level.

Some intricacies that I an referring to are his wavedash off of ledge, which when mastered can be a huge offensive tool...
Tornado recovery + randomness of misfires actually make his recovery decent, not as bad as most people think. Watch abate and vudujin recover and you'll see.
Also...people seem to think that Luigi has one way to wavedash. His wavedash is so freaking long that you can altar the lengths as you please to mess with your opponents spacing and also bring a level of finesse to your own.

i can rant for days on this but I'll stop here. Will make a tier list later.

 

[Senortesta]

Good god no. Pikachu now counters spacies and Sheik goes even with Doc? ****. Yeah the MU chart is archaic but those numbers are horribly wrong.

The point is, I think the top say 50 players should all agree on a new matchup chart involving the new metagame and how people like Axe can take on Javi, Jman, Chillindude, Eggym and Zhu

 

[kalamazhu]

hi i'm kalamazhu and I am a player from Michigan
Heres my tier list:

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Puff
Peach
Falcon
ICs
Samus
Doc
Pikachu
Luigi
Ganon
Mario
Young Link
DK
Link
Ness
G&W
Yoshi
Zelda
Kirby
Bowser
Roy
Mewtwo
Pichu

Ganon is actually an awful character at a higher level... He can't really do too much.

 

[john!]

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill

edit: except for you kzhu, you're actually good

 

[FourStar]

BTW i am the pikachu kid and yes i like mewtwo guys but so what? have you seen people like M2K, or Vectorman, or TAJ play with Mewtwo? they just simply kick ass and its incredible. now i don't know too much about mewtwo but i know enough to know people such as the one's i listed can make mewtwo a much better character than he is perceieved. Therefore i moved him up four spaces. don't agree? fair enough. you have an opinion, i have an opinion. but i have some proof behind my statement

 

[PGH Carroll]

I mean yeah, M2K sure can do some dumb free **** on spacies on FD with Mewtwo. Lets move him up 4 spots. My blind grandpa has free **** on spacies on FD.

TAJ is incredible. No doubt. but has pushed Mewtwo as far as I see him going tbh.

 

[Bones0]

BTW i am the pikachu kid and yes i like mewtwo guys but so what? have you seen people like M2K, or Vectorman, or TAJ play with Mewtwo? they just simply kick *** and its incredible. now i don't know too much about mewtwo but i know enough to know people such as the one's i listed can make mewtwo a much better character than he is perceieved. Therefore i moved him up four spaces. don't agree? fair enough. you have an opinion, i have an opinion. but i have some proof behind my statement

Your "proof" that Mewtwo should be moved up consists of a few Mew2King friendlies and Taj playing people who have never fought an L-cancelling Mewtwo in their life. Everyone else's proof consists of every other match in the history of Melee that demonstrates why Mewtwo is a fundamentally flawed character on many levels. If you're going to place him a lot higher than normal, you should have a solid reason for it. Of course people will always bicker about 1-2 spots because people are just basing that off of their gut feeling, but 3+ spots you should have really definitive explanations of what Mewtwo players aren't doing that they could be. Something like my post which mentioned the possibility of teleport camping as an area to be improved upon is a good example.

 

[BTmoney]

The point is, I think the top say 50 players should all agree on a new matchup chart involving the new metagame and how people like Axe can take on Javi, Jman, Chillindude, Eggym and Zhu

I think everyone in touch with the meta agrees that the MU chart is old and inaccurate. No however one will tell you that Pikachu goes even at best with either spacie and that makes me question your understanding of the game. Understand also that Axe is a better player than all of those people (except Javi possibly if you want to argue that, and no offensive to anyone but if you're going toe to toe with Axe then I don't need to tell you that you're good) and there is huge different between you out playing your opponent and your character being good and or it being a good MU. I hope everyone understands that when they make their lists. Leffen might go to a large regional and win with Yoshi, Yoshi didn't get any better. He still has the exact same flaws he had before.

My point is this, some characters are inherently or comparatively bad and there will come a point where that will not change because some characters are simply better by design and should be treated as such. Just because unknown can 4 stock someone with his Pichu doesn't make Pichu good at all, at all.

 

[Kimimaru]

I think the main point being made is that we've seen more effective ways to play some characters, which in turn makes them more formidable. Take chaingrabbing for example. When chaingrabbing was discovered it became a huge thing, and now people counterpick Fox/Falco with FD if their character (Marth and Peach in this example) can chaingrab them there. In this instance you can say that chaingrabbing is the most effective strategy to win on FD since at the top level chaingrabs almost always convert into stocks, and Fox/Falco can't chaingrab those characters back so they're at a disadvantage.

If chaingrabbing was never discovered, then people would be playing Marth and Peach less optimally against Fox/Falco on FD and we wouldn't think they're as good compared to Fox/Falco as we do now because they'd be missing a great tool to use against them.

Apply this same concept to how differently other characters are played now (Yoshi parries/wavelands, aggressive Peach play, more grounded Marths) than previously (standing on the edge waiting to gimp with Egg Lay, heavy aerial game as Marth) and you'll see that players utilizing the new method of playing these characters generally do better in tournaments than before.

 

[FourStar]

Your "proof" that Mewtwo should be moved up consists of a few Mew2King friendlies and Taj playing people who have never fought an L-cancelling Mewtwo in their life. Everyone else's proof consists of every other match in the history of Melee that demonstrates why Mewtwo is a fundamentally flawed character on many levels. If you're going to place him a lot higher than normal, you should have a solid reason for it. Of course people will always bicker about 1-2 spots because people are just basing that off of their gut feeling, but 3+ spots you should have really definitive explanations of what Mewtwo players aren't doing that they could be. Something like my post which mentioned the possibility of teleport camping as an area to be improved upon is a good example.

ok fine. but still i still think mewtwo has improved more than say zelda or zelda and make it enough for him to move up at least one or two spots

 

[Bones0]

ok fine. but still i still think mewtwo has improved more than say zelda or zelda and make it enough for him to move up at least one or two spots

That's fine if that's what you think, but since it's such a unique opinion you should explain your reasoning. Maybe someone will see Mewtwo from a different perspective because of your explanation, or maybe they will have a counterargument that makes you rethink your position. (Don't be surprised or frustrated when most people disagree without giving good explanations though. You can't change everyone's minds.)

 

[FourStar]

That's fine if that's what you think, but since it's such a unique opinion you should explain your reasoning. Maybe someone will see Mewtwo from a different perspective because of your explanation, or maybe they will have a counterargument that makes you rethink your position. (Don't be surprised or frustrated when most people disagree without giving good explanations though. You can't change everyone's minds.)

ok here it goes
1. mewtwo's recovery is superb. probably the best in the game. can't think of any better in the game
2. mewtwo's grabs are also superb. he can not only inflict a lot of damage but he can also chainthrow as well
3. mewtwo's aerials are pretty decent. inflict a decent amount of damage
4. he's pretty good against spacies as shown by M2K and Taj. you got to play smart.
5. IMO he's a better character than say roy and zelda

now he is lightweight so easy to KO and also he is also a floaty making him easy target but other than that i don't know too much about him but know enough to know he can move up two spots or maybe even more on the tier list

 

[Bones0]

1. I agree
2. Mewtwo cannot chain throw any characters to my knowledge. He can only tech chase FFers with dthrow.
3. His aerials have very poor disjointedness making them easy to trade with.
4. M2K and Taj are gdlk players. If you are going to cite examples of them beating spacie players, it should be against opponents that are just as good as they are.

 

[Ziodyne]

I dunno about Mewtwo vs. Zelda, but I will say at least this

ROY SUCKS
REALLY BAD

 

[Upke]

zelda or zelda

Damn, son. Shots fired. Zelda has better and more reliable kill moves than Mewtwo does. He has what, upthrow and fair? Fair is so small, and like Bones said, its disjointedness is crap. And upthrow doesn't work on characters like Falcon and spacies (common characters) until 150+% on most neutral stages. Zelda's fair and bair are nicely disjointed and have two sweetspots each. She can also safely gimp on stage with her dsmash where Mewtwo tends to require going offstage and bairing. Also, Zelda does have chaingrabs. From low to mid percents on spacies and maybe Falcon, and she can chaingrab semi-floaties with dthrow if they don't DI away, which does happen because who even knows the Zelda MU? She can't stall on the ledge as well as Mewtwo can though.


That's just my two cents.

 

[Get Low]

Zelda mad underrated. Mewtwo blows.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

2. Mewtwo cannot chain throw any characters to my knowledge. He can only tech chase FFers with dthrow.

Mewtwo can CG Spacies with Fthrow if they have really REALLY piss poor SDI on the Shadowballs.

It's really janky and should never actually happen but it does exist.

Also I think Dthrow -> Dtilt -> regrab works on some characters (Sheik maybe? idk I usually go for Fair after the Dtilt)

 

[Senortesta]

@tachi
But then you could make the argument that Ice Climbers are bad and Wobbles, Chu Dad, and Fly are only really good players regardless of their character. And i'm not saying pikachu should go even with spacies, I'm saying it shouldn't be shown as a basically un winnable matchup. Axe has shown that pikachu can get gimps and can be hard to gimp by the shine spike or falco's dair so i'm saying maybe it should be bumped up more towards a 60/40 or 65-35. The metagame will always be changing and if a good player shows a good tactic with a thought to be bad character, that character should have the ability to be considered better.

 

[V3ctorMan]

1. I agree
2. Mewtwo cannot chain throw any characters to my knowledge. He can only tech chase FFers with dthrow.

They aren't "true" Chaingrabs.. But Mewtwo can CG another Mewtwo that DI's inwards, same with a Yoshi that doesn't DJCCounter, that DI's inwards.. Also FFallers that DI inwards at higher % (Dthrow) Many of the cast at certain % that DI inwards...

Mewtwo can also Chaingrab Fox/Falco at 0% that DI's away (Uthrow) ONE time..

The Dthrow<Dtilt<regrab.. only works if the player doesn't FULLY DI away... ahh mewtwo secrets now none of you should have Mewtwo trouble anymore..

So much useless info... ><;

I miss playing Mewtwo.. I should start again...