2013 Community Tier List

[JKJ]

Guys, watch out for this JKJ guy, I don't know if anyone of you remember, but he was the one who made a post about how Falco has it and everyone beats him too easy.

He actually was arguing why Yoshi vs. Falco is kind of even.

Ha.

Oh, man, how I knew you were the kind of guy who would spread misinformation.
He was arguing that the Yoshi player could be much better than the Falco player and still lose in that matchup. I argued that character choice was a large factor in how good of a player you were. If you got beaten, the other player was better at winning than you.

All I did in that thread was point out strengths that Yoshi had. I didn't claim they outweighed his negatives, I just pointed out his strengths. like Dtilt gimps on the ledge for easy kills, and how it was difficult to spike him, and his impenetrable shield and lightshield shenanigans.

Just to warn everyone, after our argument about Falco v Yoshi, in which I compared his immaturity to Leffen, Leffen himself commented in the thread and said

"Do not try to reason with Purpletuce

It is simply not worth it"

Lol anyways
I do not think Yoshi v Falco is even.
I never thought that

All I think is that Purpletuce is a stubborn, uninformed, juvenile idiot.

 

[Tero.]

Thats an NTSC List?

If you don't mind posting it, what is your opinion on the PAL tier list?

I guess that was directed towards me?

Well tbqh my PAL tier list wouldn't differ by much.
Back in 2010 when we talked about what criteria should be used to decide upon the Tier List we came to the conclusion that its neither potential/MUs nor placings but rather both. Potential actually hasnt changed since 2002, because characters are still the same. Circumstances changed and so did our Knowledge about the Game. Its still not enough to make a tier List based on its own, so we have to take results into account.
Since Armadas first Trip to the US (Genesis) the Communities grew together quite a bit. Results are mixed up because of European Players are attending more and more American tournaments and we even had the Big US names around in Europe. Therefore I think the difference between our tier lists became less and less.

If I had to vote a PAL tier List right now my Top placings would probably stay the same even though the gaps are more clear IMO. Like I really was unsure about spacies order. In PAL tho I have less Problems placing Falco in front of Fox because Fox is significantly worse compared to NTSC while falcos dair nerf is a joke in comparison.

More changes might occur in LT but tbqh all LT orders from anyone are no more than guesses since there are almost no people actually knowledged about LT characters let alone Lt Matchups. Yoshi comes to mind because he was boosted from PAL to NTSC and we have a good player (leffen) but I allready placed him quite high, so yeah...

 

[No U]

So, my credentials are essentially negligible; I've been to a number of tourneys in the pac NW but generally don't make it past four or so rounds. I'm about at the skill level where people like Silent Wolf and Bladewise beat me with 2 stocks 70% of the time and 3 stocks the other 30% >.> I've been playing Eggz a bit lately since I moved near portland and I can generally have really close matches (down to 1 stock usually) before he gets warmed up and get 2-3 stocked once he's been playing a bit. I've been to Genesis 1 and 2 (4th in round 1 pools both times) and been playing competitively for quite some time. I would be really good if I could hit all the tech skill I wanted to, but I still (and will likely forever) make major tech skill mistakes at least 5x a match especially in tourney (like accidentally tap jumping my double jump and opening myself up at high percent on last stock like an idiot or just aerialing too high on shield or spot dodging instead of shining out of shield, things like that) >_> Anyways I'll post my list anyways even though it will probably be ignored.

Top Tier:
Peach - now, maybe I just have some bad memories from warming up Armada before GF of genesis 2 but Peach has some ludicrous potential going on. She is next to impossible to gimp as far as the cast goes (pretty darn safe recovery), has insane gimping and combo potential, especially against spacies (most important mus in the game), can float cancel, and gets items to toss around. I mean, there's obviously a great deal more to any character's potential than can be concisely explained in a few sentences, so I'm not going to go into too much detail, but seeing Armada consistently turn smash into a game of Peach's teatime stuffed animal massacre makes me wish she was as popular of a character as the spacies, so I could see that potential unfold in different ways.
Fox - he's pretty quick and stuff.
Falco - great approaches and combos and all that. I put him under fox because of his 2 extra frames of jumpsquat and relatively easier to gimp-ness, but I mean they're reeeally about the same. errything in a tier is about the same imo
Marth - spacing monster, ridiculous grab, and can stuff spacies as well as anyone.
Puff - difficult to combo and has all that recovery and DI and rest and otherwise obnoxious aerial weaving abilities

High Tier:
Sheik - I think sheik has a slightly harder time dealing with the approaches of top tiers than other top tiers (no proper dashdancing, and it's tough making her techchases as painful as being shined into something or getting grabbed by marth), but that might be my own personal mediocre skill maining sheik speaking. But this is all about my personal opinion so I'm dropping her a tier because reasons. And those reasons are that I don't think her MU spread is quite as good as the people I put above her.
Ice climbers - there's ****ing 2 of them
Samus - while she does suffer from not having a real grab and having situational aerials, she has good weight, can cc more than others, and has a good (if obnoxiously long) recovery.
Falcon - Falcon is ever so popular because of his generally sexy playstyle, but I feel that he really suffers from poor defensive options and a very gimpable recovery.

Mid tier:
Pika - he's got some tricks.
Luigi - I wish more luigis would chaingrab spacies right.
Doc - sure wish he had a better recovery, he'd be a monster.
Ganon - ganon does well against a lot of the cast but suffers a bit more than others against spacies.
Mario - decent character. I'm done writing brief justifications now.
Link
Young Link

Low tier:
G&W
Mewtwo
Donkey kong
zelda
roy

Bottom tier:
Yoshi - no jump oos is just too brutal. imo.
Ness - gimp city
Kirby - I have a looot of experience playing as kirby, and people underestimate him... slightly. He has a handful more tricks than people give him credit for. Mostly bair and to a lesser extent dair. You can stuff/gimp a loooot of recoveries with that. Captain falcon, for one, is incredibly easy to bair out of his recovery to death every single time. I have absolutely no fear of the falcon vs kirby mu. kirby's game is very very defense based, and requires a lot of barely outspacing your opponent and smart crouching for minor punishes like dtilt or ftilt (or utilt utilt utilt utilt bair bair death, if you're awesome). L-cancelled fair on shield is actually a good approach too (good in relative terms, ofc), since it has a light lingering hit that generally shield pokes, which can lead into very minor combos which is what kirby is all about haha.
Pichu - I once techrolled as this character. Never again.
Bowser - upB oos and <100% damage ledge get up attack are great and all if your opponent doesn't want to shield pressure right or know about those options. other than that, too slow to compete imo.

 

[Blistering Speed]

So glad you people are contributing to the tier list.

 

[Poilon]

Hello,

I'm Poilon, some of you have maybe heard of me. French player, friend of Baxon, here from the beginning of the game, but retired 2 years ago for work/wedding/children stuffs.
I still watch a lot of videos, and a lot of tournament streams.
This is my list (a little unconventional) regarding my experience in the game in NTSC :


Jigglypuff
Sheik
Peach
Falco
Fox
Marth
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Doc
Pikachu
Ganondorf
Samus
Luigi
Young Link
Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Yoshi
Ness
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Roy
Kirby
Zelda
Bowser
Pichu

 

[The Hooded Informant]

*sigh* I've known Melee for a long time, playing every character, but there is no way, no way at all, that Mario, DK, nor YLink are better than Link. Link has much more advantages than the others. YLink may have a niche, but Link would still defeat YLink in air combat and ground combat. Link is much faster than DK, where DK is almost as slow as Bowser. DK can't even short hop with most of his attacks. Mario has some very weak attacks, especially if you don't time them. Mario has to do more work and effort to KO a character, whilst a character that is better than him can surely KO him without much effort needed.

Where is the fun is Super Smash Bros. Melee anymore? I don't see it.

 

[The Business]

*sigh* I've known Melee for a long time, playing every character, but there is no way, no way at all, that Mario, DK, nor YLink are better than Link. Link has much more advantages than the others. YLink may have a niche, but Link would still defeat YLink in air combat and ground combat. Link is much faster than DK, where DK is almost as slow as Bowser. DK can't even short hop with most of his attacks. Mario has some very weak attacks, especially if you don't time them. Mario has to do more work and effort to KO a character, whilst a character that is better than him can surely KO him without much effort needed.

Where is the fun is Super Smash Bros. Melee anymore? I don't see it.

what does theorycrafting a tier list of characters have to do with melee being fun. if you don't think there's fun in melee then **** off.

 

[FourStar]

Hello,

I'm Poilon, some of you have maybe heard of me. French player, friend of Baxon, here from the beginning of the game, but retired 2 years ago for work/wedding/children stuffs.
I still watch a lot of videos, and a lot of tournament streams.
This is my list (a little unconventional) regarding my experience in the game in NTSC :


Jigglypuff
Sheik
Peach
Falco
Fox
Marth
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Doc
Pikachu
Ganondorf
Samus
Luigi
Young Link
Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Yoshi
Ness
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Roy
Kirby
Zelda
Bowser
Pichu

Jigglypuff? in first? she is KO'ed soooooo easily.....

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

*sigh* I've known Melee for a long time, playing every character, but there is no way, no way at all, that Mario, DK, nor YLink are better than Link. Link has much more advantages than the others. YLink may have a niche, but Link would still defeat YLink in air combat and ground combat. Link is much faster than DK, where DK is almost as slow as Bowser. DK can't even short hop with most of his attacks. Mario has some very weak attacks, especially if you don't time them. Mario has to do more work and effort to KO a character, whilst a character that is better than him can surely KO him without much effort needed.

Where is the fun is Super Smash Bros. Melee anymore? I don't see it.

Please keep the trolling to a minimum in this thread. I don't want to have to bring the moderators around.

 

[FourStar]

people are idiots when it comes to mid tiers..... smh

 

[PGH Carroll]

So what do we do? give a discrption of out smash accomplishments then say players we feel were on par with? lol

• Top placings.
  • Top 5 in Regionals/locals 95% of the time.
    I SUCK **** AT NATIONALS OMG THEY **** WITH MY POOL AT EVERY SINGLE ONE LOL IDK JOHNNNNSNSNSNSNS SALT
  • I've beaten every almost every top player in my region including Vudujin, Silentswag, 4%, Nakamaru, TheLake and notable players outside my region Moose, HIV+, Shady,
• Players I feel im on par with: Juggleguy, Idea, Taki, Green Ranger

1. Falco
2. Sheik
3. Fox
4. Peach
5. Puff
6. Marth
7. Falcon
8. ICs
9. Doc
10. Samus
11. Ganon
12. Luigi
13. Pikachu
14. Mario
15. DK
16. Y.Link
17. Roy
18. Link
19. Mr G&W
20. Zelda
21. Yoshi
22. Ness
23. Bowser
24. Mewtwo
25. Pichu
26. Kirby

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I guess that was directed towards me?

Well tbqh my PAL tier list wouldn't differ by much.
Back in 2010 when we talked about what criteria should be used to decide upon the Tier List we came to the conclusion that its neither potential/MUs nor placings but rather both. Potential actually hasnt changed since 2002, because characters are still the same. Circumstances changed and so did our Knowledge about the Game. Its still not enough to make a tier List based on its own, so we have to take results into account.
Since Armadas first Trip to the US (Genesis) the Communities grew together quite a bit. Results are mixed up because of European Players are attending more and more American tournaments and we even had the Big US names around in Europe. Therefore I think the difference between our tier lists became less and less.

If I had to vote a PAL tier List right now my Top placings would probably stay the same even though the gaps are more clear IMO. Like I really was unsure about spacies order. In PAL tho I have less Problems placing Falco in front of Fox because Fox is significantly worse compared to NTSC while falcos dair nerf is a joke in comparison.

More changes might occur in LT but tbqh all LT orders from anyone are no more than guesses since there are almost no people actually knowledged about LT characters let alone Lt Matchups. Yoshi comes to mind because he was boosted from PAL to NTSC and we have a good player (leffen) but I allready placed him quite high, so yeah...

Well hey, im perfectly happy taking PAL lists too as long as the poster tells me its PAL. If you or anyone else in europe wants to give me them

 

[V3ctorMan]

Be nice everyone.. >.>;

Kinda shocked on many people Yoshi's placing(s) Kinda happy, that many want to move him up.. <3

This project is interesting...

I suck at this game though, and don't know how to compile a good list, off of "proper logic".. idk I can try?

 

[MountainGoat]

Be nice everyone.. >.>;

Kinda shocked on many people Yoshi's placing(s) Kinda happy, that many want to move him up.. <3

This project is interesting...

I suck at this game though, and don't know how to compile a good list, off of "proper logic".. idk I can try?

Vman you're way more qualified than most of the people who have been posting. Go for it.

 

[goateeguy]

I'll write my credentials but tl;dr I’m a scrub. Nevertheless, I'm making my list like all the other scrubs. I've included explanations so that people can make fun of my reasons for being as dumb as they are and I can learn from that.

Um...beat ajtwist in singles and 2Jar and PracticeMan in teams at KoC2. Haven't recently attended any other significant tournaments, although I have had regular smashfests with Tai, Wobbles, Axe, and Taj in attendance frequently (so they'd make good references). I play pretty even with Che$ and Neon if you can find any videos of us (Che$ prefers Wes but that'll just get him confused with the Samus player). Che$ has tended to beat me in close matches in tourney, I think Neon and I are like 1-1 or 1-2 in his favor.

1. Fox (+0 blink blink dead. And if that doesn't work, great horizontal mobility, fantastic spacing, juggling and upward kills)
2. Falco (+0 for being free offstage #MarthMain, though onstage he's got the best combo game of any character)
3. Sheik (+1 for great priority, a disruptive projectile, excellent edgeguards, quick movement)
4. Marth (+1 for threatening movement, strong edgeguards, ridiculous priority, notable recovery. Attacks are too laggy to break top 3)
5. Jigglypuff (-2. I personally think HBox's superior spacing contributes more to the positive perception of Jiggs than the character merits)
6. Peach (+0 Just keeps coming back with that recovery. Not the greatest priority everywhere, but good up-close pressure game and good camping)
7. C. Falcon (+0 glass cannon. If he gets his hit he has monster combos, but until then he has to camp a bit, and has a mediocre recovery)
8. Ice Climbers (+0 Sopo~18th or 19th, but until then one grab = one kill and good spacing options. Nana's an idiot)
9. Samus (+2 for tricky recovery, decent projectiles, fairly viable close-range defensive options)
10. Ganondorf (+0 Bad mobility, easy to combo, long but punishable recovery, but once he gets his hit it hurts and his dthrow is pretty useful)
11. Pikachu (+1, maybe it's just that I play with Axe, but Pika's got gimps, a great recovery, and above average mobility which I think put him above Doc)
12. Dr. Mario (-3 for relatively poor priority and a lackluster recovery. He's not that much better than Mario IMO )
13. Mario (+0 Projectile, hitbox angles and knockback put him below Doc but walljumping, better combos, recovery, and fsmash range put him close)
14. Luigi (+0 WDs all over the place and combos decently, pretty free offstage)
15. Young Link (+2. Players like Armada and Axe have done a lot of innovating with this character. His mobility, ability to camp, and useful aerials make him better than low tier. If version 1.0 were tournament standard he miiiight be a step higher for the improved recovery)
16. Link (+0 Has his tricks, but his poor mobility and relatively laggy moves bring him down)
17. Donkey Kong (-2. Yes, he has juggling and a few quick moves, but he's a big target, lacks vertical recovery, and is generally predictable)
18. Mewtwo (+2 for recovery within blast zones, decent projectile, great WD and roll, somewhat ok spacing, powerful throws, better combos than Roy or Zelda)
19. Zelda (-1 Bad mobility and laggy moves. Fair and Bair though)
20. Roy (-1 for poor spacing, little combo ability outside of throws, and needing hard reads to kill many characters)
21. Mr. Game and Watch (+1 for high recovery, relatively useful aerials and the dtilt. Shield sucks and mobility is meh)
22. Yoshi (-1 for no OoS game, no 3rd jump, relatively poor spacing options. Surprisingly good at surviving but can't do much with its lives)
23. Ness (+0 vaguely ok low-tier neutral game but horribly gimpable recovery)
24. Bowser (+0 most combo-able, laggy character in the game with worst mobility. Up-B and ftilt are his only viable moves)
25. Kirby (+0 Lack of priority, poor horizontal and vertical mobility, predictable recovery, no viable projectile)
26. Pichu (+0 Lack of priority, damages self, more laggy recovery than Pikachu, does very little damage and can't combo)

 

[Purpletuce]

@jkj

If leffen insults you, it is a good thing. Leffen has insulted nearly everyone on the boards except for players he is too elitist too respond to.

When a character has a hard mu it means it is harder for that character to win (yoshi vs falco), so I think it would make since that if the yoshi is slightly better, he may still lose because of character disadvantages. It comes with the territory.

Done talking about/with you.

 

[Kimimaru]

22. Yoshi (-1 for no OoS game, no 3rd jump, relatively poor spacing options. Surprisingly good at surviving but can't do much with its lives)

I'm not meaning to nitpick but I don't agree with your reasoning. Although Yoshi doesn't have a third jump his superarmor makes him hard/impossible to edgeguard at low to mid percents. He also has pretty good combos, good gimping ability, a great projectile, and his D-smash is one of the best smash attacks in the game for killing fastfallers.

 

[JKJ]

@jkj

If leffen insults you, it is a good thing. Leffen has insulted nearly everyone on the boards except for players he is too elitist too respond to.

When a character has a hard mu it means it is harder for that character to win (yoshi vs falco), so I think it would make since that if the yoshi is slightly better, he may still lose because of character disadvantages. It comes with the territory.

Done talking about/with you.

Cool story bro.

I had no interest at all in perpetuating our mutual dislike, if you remember I actually stated so.
I specifically said, I don't mean to pick a fight with someone I don't know, I even said, you seem nice enough; anger gets magnified over the internet. But this? This was uncalled for. You have a problem with me, Pm me.

Sorry for the wasted thread space!

I pretty much shared all of my opinions about the tier list, I posted one earlier and have posted separately several times after.
In short: Sheik #1, Spacies are overrated, floaties are better than fast fallers.
That's pretty much how I feel.

 

[V3ctorMan]

*sigh* We should all just get along.. ><;

Also, I had one of my famous long post, up, detailed and everything of my tier list... then my CPU like froze, and I basically lost everything.....

*sigh* I'll prolly try again tomorrow or something.. I really thought I had something decent.. >< Stupid technology

 

[kiw1]

Top placings. Make sure to include this information:
Don't really got a notable placement, my best was b.e.a.s.t 3, but more for teams... as well osmash#2 teams.

Size of the tournament (number of entrants as well as the entry fee)
uh really important?
Notable players who attended
beast 3: mango, scar, adam, ice, zgetto. overtriforce and so on
Who you actually beat and/or out placed
well only one really notebale was captain jadde at beast1 i guess.. even though that wasnt really huge
Best tournament victories
well yeah 5th in teams at beast 3
Players who you consider yourself to be of about even skill with. Include your tournament record with them, if known.
dunno :/ i played really close against 2 guys who were good at koc2 though (lost both 2-1 against sung + khepro or something, cf main)
Any players in your community who I could contact as a personal reference and/or to verify information provided.
dont really think thats necessary since this isnt really a big deal

made some hotfixes to my old list. was reconsidering ntsc-pal stuff + ic/falcon.. much more thinking behind all that now

PAL TIERLIST

Falco
Fox
Peach
Puff
Sheik
Marth
Falcon
Doc
Pika
IC
Samus
Ganon
Mario
Mew2
Dk
Luigi
Yl
zelda
link
Roy
Ness
G&W
Yoshi
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

 

[V3ctorMan]

^Ok on your PAL tier list.. how is Yoshi even lower placing then in the NTSC tier list....when Yoshi has nothing but buffs in PAL...

So confused...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought it was the other way around. Yoshi got nerfs going into PAL and is better in NTSC

Also kiw1, would you mind editing that into your original vote but labeling which vote is which? That would great

 

[Pengie]

I can't really come up with any accurate account of my tournament results because after playing for five years they all kinda blur together. I guess my most notable victories would be beating UUAA and Soft. As for references, you could probably get an accurate assessment of my skill from talking to either SleepyK or DruggedFox since they've been the people I've played with most frequently as of late.

Anyway on to the list

S
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Falco

A
C.Falcon
Peach
JigglyPuff

B

Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Mario
Ganondorf
Samus

C
Y.Link
Yoshi
Game and Watch
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong

D
Roy
Mewtwo
Zelda
Ness
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

Rationale:

Spoiler

S-Tier: While I put the characters in that order I think that they could realistically be in any order because of how good all four of them are. I put Fox and Marth as the top two because I value characters having strong ground based footsies above other qualities and these characters have not only two of the best dashdances, but also some of the best moves to use in conjunction with their dashdances with which to play footsies (Fox's nair, Marth's dtilt, both of their grabs). Fox's high aerial mobility in addition to his overall speed give him the ability to challenge other characters air to air, while Marth's stupid range lets him punish people for wanting go to the air against him so not only do these two characters have the best ground games, but they can also destroy characters for deciding to fight in the air. Falco's ground game is also able to force people into the air because of lasers but because he's a lot slower than Marth or Fox I feel like it's harder to capitalize on forcing someone into the air because he lacks the air to air/anti-airs that Marth and Fox have. His dashdance not being as big as the two above him also prevents him from punishing people as they're falling by threatening to dashdance grab as they land, which is another big advantage that Fox and Marth have over him. Sheik may not be able to play the dashdance game like Marth or Fox, but she's able to make up for that with tools such as her boost-grab and dash attack for overshooting and catching dashes away. She also has the ability to keep people out with her ridiculous hitboxes and aerial needles which place hitboxes in important spots for beating approaches. So while Sheik may not be able to compete with Marth and Fox in the dashdance game, she isn't necessarily forced to give up her own strong ground game because she has ways of preventing them from dashdancing in her boost-grab,needles, and dash attack. This is similar to how Falco can stop dash dances with his lasers, but I think that the key difference between them is that Falco has a lot more trouble dealing with Fox and Marth once they eventually get in whereas Sheik's main strength, IMO, is her ability to keep them out at the same ranges that Falco has trouble with.

Spoiler

A-tier: I think that the fact that Falcon's dashdance is so ridiculously big is something that people seem to underrate a lot. While he doesn't have the tools that Marth and Fox have that force characters above him easily, he does have the tools to out footsie even characters that are "better" than him. That is to say, he can catch the other character dashing away with a nair really well, or he can dashdance grab people's approaches similarly to Marth or Fox (although his shorter grab range makes this more difficult). Once he does get you to jump, he's pretty good at controlling the space above him because his uair has an amazing hit box and comes out pretty quickly. Additionally, can dashdance grab people as they're coming down in a similar manner to Fox and Marth which is amazing for Falcon since he gets so much off of his grab. The only reason that he's noticeably worse than the top 4 (and hence in a lower tier altogether) is that his moves get stuffed way too easily so he can't approach in situations where Fox, Marth, or Falco would be able to. Peach has some really amazing tools in her Float, fair, and turnips. These allow her to cover herself really well and allow her to take advantage of favorable opportunities and be aggressive by using her turnips to cover her approach and the massive frame advantage on her fair to stay in safely, or she can use the turnips to cut off space for the opponent and use her fair as a wall to dissuade the opponent from approaching all together because that move is impossible to challenge, unless you're Marth, once it's active. Her neutral air is also good for walling people out and for being a quick get off of me option. She starts to falter, however, once she has to fight people in the ground game because her low mobility makes it easy to out footsie her. Her only real tool on the ground for beating this is her dash attack but that's really punishable if she doesn't win the footsie battle so she has to take lots of risks in order to get things started. This is also something that serves as a distinction between S-tier and A-tier. None of the S-tier characters have to rely on overly risky things to get their game started whereas Falcon, Peach, and Jiggs have to. Peach also suffers from the problem of being a floaty so she's pretty vulnerable on her way down although this can be mitigated by using her up-B to alter the timing on her descent. Jigglypuff has, IMO, the best air footsies in the game because of her crazy air mobility. She also has her fair and bair to harass the opponent and outspace most characters completely; however because she's slow to come down, she can be punished by wavedash out of shield on both of these moves. Her biggest difficulty getting in is dealing with the fact that she's so slow so she'll eventually have to take a risk to get in. Once she get's in she has to harass and condition you so that she can get grabs for her to really start her offense, or she could take the safer route and slowly build up damage until the other character gives her an opening.

From B-tier and on my thoughts are a lot less concrete and the order of the characters starts to revolve around how well they deal with an opposing character's dashdance, how well they can punish the other character for taking to the air/platforms, and how characters themselves react once they get forced into the air. Overall, I don't really feel like I have good enough reasons to argue for the placement of the characters in B-tier and below.

 

[goateeguy]

I'm not meaning to nitpick but I don't agree with your reasoning. Although Yoshi doesn't have a third jump his superarmor makes him hard/impossible to edgeguard at low to mid percents. He also has pretty good combos, good gimping ability, a great projectile, and his D-smash is one of the best smash attacks in the game for killing fastfallers.

I did say that he has surprising survivability; I've been 3-stocked by V3ctorman, I know Yoshi lives for a while xD But I still think the lack of a 3rd jump is a liability, because the super armor doesn't last all the way from double jump to hitting the ground. I'll agree that his projectile is decent and that his d-smash is a really solid kill move, but I think his combo game is comparable with G&Ws, and even with double jump cancelling it doesn't seem like Yoshi has as many good spacing moves as G&W, who has fairs and dtilts, not to mention the parachute of death.

And this is the part where V3ctorman puts his own list together and answers the question more authoritatively than either of us can :D (seriously, please do, I'm curious)

 

[dkuo]

*sigh* We should all just get along.. ><;

absolutely not, if someone disagrees with me i gotta let them know how absolutely ******** they are. its the law of the internet duh



on a more serious note, i wonder if falco will surpass fox in this tierlist iteration. i couldnt decide between the two and just went with my bias...

 

[Juggleguy]

Placings: 33rd at The Big House 2, 41st at MELEE-FC10R, 33rd at Rule 6 Regional
Best tournament victories: Unknown522, Duck, Cosmo, Frootloop, Sung
Players who you consider yourself to be of about even skill with: Refer to the Michigan Melee PR
Any players in your community who I could contact: Dre, Jungle, aisight, Rat, KishPrime

1. Fox
2. Falco

3. Sheik
4. Marth
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach

7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers

9. Doctor Mario
10. Samus
11. Ganondorf
12. Pikachu

13. Luigi
14. Mario
15. Zelda
16. Link
17. Young Link

18. Donkey Kong
19. Yoshi
20. Mr. Game & Watch
21. Roy
22. Mewtwo

23. Ness
24. Bowser
25. Pichu
26. Kirby

 

[Jockmaster]

@Pengie

yo how is Luigi so low on that tier list and Mario so high?

 

[Pengie]

IMO luigi is kinda bad because his movement is garbage. His ground movement looks really nice because he covers a lot of ground with wavedashes, but in order to do that he needs to commit to the ~15 frames of jump startup + airdodge landing lag. There are certain ranges where Luigi literally can't move forward against certain characters because the other person can just hit him out of his moves startup if he tries to wavedash forward and do a move to approach. He could try to walk towards you and ftilt but his walk speed isn't really good enough for him to maneuver around against anyone that's faster than him. Also the range where he can't wavedash is well outside of his ftilt so it's not even a threat if you're spacing yourself right. So without good ground movement his only other option would be air movement; however, Luigi's air movement is pretty much non-existent, so he can't use that to move around either. On top of that he's so floaty that if he ever jumps he'll probably die because keeping him above you is basically hitting a non-moving target >.>

As for Mario, I think his fireballs at least give him something to interrupt his opponent's dashdancing. His utilt is also surprisingly good for beating out some aerial stuff so he at least has options to deal with people dashdancing and jumping around which is more than what I feel Luigi can muster. Then again, I haven't played/seen a good Luigi in a while so I could be completely off on my assessment of him.

 

[JKJ]

I agree with you, Pengie. The 15 frames of nothing pose a serious problem to Luigi's already lackluster moveset. He can get locked out of ranges very quickly, and put in very precarious, dangerous positions quite easily.
Mario is just more viable in my opinion. He is like Doc, who is pretty viable, and in my opinion (and Mang0's), Mario is better than Doc.

 

[Mogwai]

lol, 15 frames of jump startup... Luigi's jump has 3 frames of startup iirc.

 

[Kimimaru]

I did say that he has surprising survivability; I've been 3-stocked by V3ctorman, I know Yoshi lives for a while xD But I still think the lack of a 3rd jump is a liability, because the super armor doesn't last all the way from double jump to hitting the ground. I'll agree that his projectile is decent and that his d-smash is a really solid kill move, but I think his combo game is comparable with G&Ws, and even with double jump cancelling it doesn't seem like Yoshi has as many good spacing moves as G&W, who has fairs and dtilts, not to mention the parachute of death.

And this is the part where V3ctorman puts his own list together and answers the question more authoritatively than either of us can :D (seriously, please do, I'm curious)

Yeah, not having a third jump is disadvantageous in this case, but I was making the claim that at least he has something to compensate. The super armor actually lasts the entire animation (~2 seconds or so), which goes on a bit longer than he gains height so he could reach the ground if you space your landing well. Imagine how much more difficult it would be to edgeguard him if he did have a third jump, haha.

The strengths of DJC are having greater control over when you want to land a move and landing on the ground quicker so you can jump again. It's not really used for spacing purposes all the time but it is a good tool for baiting opponents or mixing up your options. Yoshi can space pretty well with B-air and his U-air has a ridiculously large hitbox. Also remember that Yoshi has shield pressure, which helps his offensive options, and a 3-frame N-air which has a variety of uses (one of which is shield pressure).

His combo game is stronger than G&W's partly because he has significantly less lag on his aerials. Two of G&W's aerials can't even be L-canceled. G&W's best combo starter is his grab, but that is hard to land because his shield is really small, giving him trouble shield grabbing. He also has some trouble following up with juggles because his main juggling move, U-tilt, can only be performed on the ground and he doesn't have any good aerial attacks to keep them above him. D-tilt is a good move, but it doesn't usually lead into more than a single N-air or other aerial.

I'm not saying you should change your list because your opinion is your own and I respect that. I'm just pointing out some things I feel you forgot to consider when putting G&W, Zelda, and Roy above Yoshi.

 

[john!]

lol, 15 frames of jump startup... Luigi's jump has 3 frames of startup iirc.

i think he's talking about the full wavedash animation

 

[Pengie]

lol, 15 frames of jump startup... Luigi's jump has 3 frames of startup iirc.

His jump is airborne on frame 5 (unless this thread is wrong) and then there's 10 frames of landing lag from airdodging.

 

[Doomolish]

falcon is not viable. falcon has essentially no chance to win an international event. if you don't like it, too bad. prove me wrong.

I think I love you.

 

[FourStar]

I'll write my credentials but tl;dr I’m a scrub. Nevertheless, I'm making my list like all the other scrubs. I've included explanations so that people can make fun of my reasons for being as dumb as they are and I can learn from that.

Um...beat ajtwist in singles and 2Jar and PracticeMan in teams at KoC2. Haven't recently attended any other significant tournaments, although I have had regular smashfests with Tai, Wobbles, Axe, and Taj in attendance frequently (so they'd make good references). I play pretty even with Che$ and Neon if you can find any videos of us (Che$ prefers Wes but that'll just get him confused with the Samus player). Che$ has tended to beat me in close matches in tourney, I think Neon and I are like 1-1 or 1-2 in his favor.

1. Fox (+0 blink blink dead. And if that doesn't work, great horizontal mobility, fantastic spacing, juggling and upward kills)
2. Falco (+0 for being free offstage #MarthMain, though onstage he's got the best combo game of any character)
3. Sheik (+1 for great priority, a disruptive projectile, excellent edgeguards, quick movement)
4. Marth (+1 for threatening movement, strong edgeguards, ridiculous priority, notable recovery. Attacks are too laggy to break top 3)
5. Jigglypuff (-2. I personally think HBox's superior spacing contributes more to the positive perception of Jiggs than the character merits)
6. Peach (+0 Just keeps coming back with that recovery. Not the greatest priority everywhere, but good up-close pressure game and good camping)
7. C. Falcon (+0 glass cannon. If he gets his hit he has monster combos, but until then he has to camp a bit, and has a mediocre recovery)
8. Ice Climbers (+0 Sopo~18th or 19th, but until then one grab = one kill and good spacing options. Nana's an idiot)
9. Samus (+2 for tricky recovery, decent projectiles, fairly viable close-range defensive options)
10. Ganondorf (+0 Bad mobility, easy to combo, long but punishable recovery, but once he gets his hit it hurts and his dthrow is pretty useful)
11. Pikachu (+1, maybe it's just that I play with Axe, but Pika's got gimps, a great recovery, and above average mobility which I think put him above Doc
12. Dr. Mario (-3 for relatively poor priority and a lackluster recovery. He's not that much better than Mario IMO )
13. Mario (+0 Projectile, hitbox angles and knockback put him below Doc but walljumping, better combos, recovery, and fsmash range put him close)
14. Luigi (+0 WDs all over the place and combos decently, pretty free offstage)
15. Young Link (+2. Players like Armada and Axe have done a lot of innovating with this character. His mobility, ability to camp, and useful aerials make him better than low tier. If version 1.0 were tournament standard he miiiight be a step higher for the improved recovery)
16. Link (+0 Has his tricks, but his poor mobility and relatively laggy moves bring him down)
17. Donkey Kong (-2. Yes, he has juggling and a few quick moves, but he's a big target, lacks vertical recovery, and is generally predictable)
18. Mewtwo (+2 for recovery within blast zones, decent projectile, great WD and roll, somewhat ok spacing, powerful throws, better combos than Roy or Zelda)
19. Zelda (-1 Bad mobility and laggy moves. Fair and Bair though)
20. Roy (-1 for poor spacing, little combo ability outside of throws, and needing hard reads to kill many characters)
21. Mr. Game and Watch (+1 for high recovery, relatively useful aerials and the dtilt. Shield sucks and mobility is meh)
22. Yoshi (-1 for no OoS game, no 3rd jump, relatively poor spacing options. Surprisingly good at surviving but can't do much with its lives)
23. Ness (+0 vaguely ok low-tier neutral game but horribly gimpable recovery)
24. Bowser (+0 most combo-able, laggy character in the game with worst mobility. Up-B and ftilt are his only viable moves)
25. Kirby (+0 Lack of priority, poor horizontal and vertical mobility, predictable recovery, no viable projectile)
26. Pichu (+0 Lack of priority, damages self, more laggy recovery than Pikachu, does very little damage and can't combo)

I really like that list. very discriptive and maes a lot of sense

 

[FourStar]

IMO luigi is kinda bad because his movement is garbage. His ground movement looks really nice because he covers a lot of ground with wavedashes, but in order to do that he needs to commit to the ~15 frames of jump startup + airdodge landing lag. There are certain ranges where Luigi literally can't move forward against certain characters because the other person can just hit him out of his moves startup if he tries to wavedash forward and do a move to approach. He could try to walk towards you and ftilt but his walk speed isn't really good enough for him to maneuver around against anyone that's faster than him. Also the range where he can't wavedash is well outside of his ftilt so it's not even a threat if you're spacing yourself right. So without good ground movement his only other option would be air movement; however, Luigi's air movement is pretty much non-existent, so he can't use that to move around either. On top of that he's so floaty that if he ever jumps he'll probably die because keeping him above you is basically hitting a non-moving target >.>

As for Mario, I think his fireballs at least give him something to interrupt his opponent's dashdancing. His utilt is also surprisingly good for beating out some aerial stuff so he at least has options to deal with people dashdancing and jumping around which is more than what I feel Luigi can muster. Then again, I haven't played/seen a good Luigi in a while so I could be completely off on my assessment of him.

You are totally right. but many people still think luigi is better than pika.....

 

[AlienAllen]

I agree with you, Pengie. The 15 frames of nothing pose a serious problem to Luigi's already lackluster moveset. He can get locked out of ranges very quickly, and put in very precarious, dangerous positions quite easily.
Mario is just more viable in my opinion. He is like Doc, who is pretty viable, and in my opinion (and Mang0's), Mario is better than Doc.

Since when does Luigi have a lackluster moveset? His aerials are pretty damn good, as are his u-tilt, d-smash, and his grab isn't bad either.

 

[FourStar]

Since when does Luigi have a lackluster moveset? His aerials are pretty damn good, as are his u-tilt, d-smash, and his grab isn't bad either.

I still don't think he comparable to Mario and chu doe....

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Since when does Luigi have a lackluster moveset? His aerials are pretty damn good, as are his u-tilt, d-smash, and his grab isn't bad either.

As a Luigi main, he is quite bad
The issue with Luigi is actually his main strength as well.
Luigi has a terribad recovery combined with well Hi I'm on skateboard traction. Basically, he'll go off stage if he >>>shields<<< a move near the ledge. Due to the same issue, characters like marth can use aerials to simply swat Luigi away as his traction prevents many punishes. (Don't get me started with fox's shine)

His n-air is still the best move in the game though

 

[FourStar]

As a Luigi main, he is quite bad
The issue with Luigi is actually his main strength as well.
Luigi has a terribad recovery combined with well Hi I'm on skateboard traction. Basically, he'll go off stage if he >>>shields<<< a move near the ledge. Due to the same issue, characters like marth can use aerials to simply swat Luigi away as his traction prevents many punishes. (Don't get me started with fox's shine)

His n-air is still the best move in the game though

Plus he's slow and easy to combo