• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

2013 Community Tier List

BluEG

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
287
Hey you guys
Everyone freakin plays fox and falco.
Like extremely disproportionate to every other character-even if you don't main them you secondary them

If a top player doesn't know how to gimp/combo a spacie after playing against them an ubsurd amount of times they should just quit.

It has nothing to do with the character matchup.

Axe has played against a high level fox a bajillion times while that fox has played a high level pikachu never.

It's match up KNOWLEDGE of the players-not the character necessarily being better
 

FourStar

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
887
Location
NOR CAL
Ok seriously can we get a new tier list from someone? i wanna see more tier lists!!!! MOAR!!!
 

Upke

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
429
Location
Savannah, GA / Cary, NC
I guess I could post mine for the sake of the thread. I have no credentials though.

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth

Jigglypuff
Peach
Ice Climbers

Falcon
Doctor Mario
Samus
Pikachu

Ganondorf
Luigi
Mario
Young Link

Yoshi
DK
Link

Mr. Game & Watch
Zelda
Roy

Mewtwo
Ness
Kirby
Bowser

Pichu :pichumelee:
 

BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
1,806
Location
Columbus OH / Chicago (Plainfield) IL
I think the main point being made is that we've seen more effective ways to play some characters, which in turn makes them more formidable.
That's my point. More formidable doesn't mean "now this character is good." No one seems to agree with the fact that some characters are better than others simply by design and plenty of good players play bad characters and beat people who are either worse than them or lack MU experience and that shouldn't be mistaken for anything else.


@tachi
But then you could make the argument that Ice Climbers are bad and Wobbles, Chu Dad, and Fly are only really good players regardless of their character. And i'm not saying pikachu should go even with spacies, I'm saying it shouldn't be shown as a basically un winnable matchup. Axe has shown that pikachu can get gimps and can be hard to gimp by the shine spike or falco's dair so i'm saying maybe it should be bumped up more towards a 60/40 or 65-35. The metagame will always be changing and if a good player shows a good tactic with a thought to be bad character, that character should have the ability to be considered better.

You know, you said it should go from 20-80 to 60-40 that is different than saying 40-60 (you were saying the MU favors Pikachu). And that's the point. And once again, better doesn't mean good like I said above.

Here is another way of wording what I am saying:
Hey you guys
Everyone freakin plays fox and falco.
Like extremely disproportionate to every other character-even if you don't main them you secondary them

If a top player doesn't know how to gimp/combo a spacie after playing against them an ubsurd amount of times they should just quit.

It has nothing to do with the character matchup.

Axe has played against a high level fox a bajillion times while that fox has played a high level pikachu never.

It's match up KNOWLEDGE of the players-not the character necessarily being better
Yes^^^^^, Axe beating Javi didn't make pikachu any better if you want an example of what I'm saying.
 

FourStar

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
887
Location
NOR CAL
I guess I could post mine for the sake of the thread. I have no credentials though.

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth

Jigglypuff
Peach
Ice Climbers

Falcon
Doctor Mario
Samus
Pikachu

Ganondorf
Luigi
Mario
Young Link

Yoshi
DK
Link

Mr. Game & Watch
Zelda
Roy

Mewtwo
Ness
Kirby
Bowser

Pichu :pichumelee:
nice list! but yoshi over DK and Link? explain :pikachu:
 

Upke

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
429
Location
Savannah, GA / Cary, NC
Because Yoshi has so much more potential that I think we will be able to tap into in the future. It's the same reason why I put Fox over Falco. Falco right now is much easier to be realistically consistent with, but even 11 years later, people are still improving in any aspect. I hope to see Yoshi's DJCing and most importantly parrying and shield dropping get more developed as time goes on.
 

FourStar

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
887
Location
NOR CAL
Because Yoshi has so much more potential that I think we will be able to tap into in the future. It's the same reason why I put Fox over Falco. Falco right now is much easier to be realistically consistent with, but even 11 years later, people are still improving in any aspect. I hope to see Yoshi's DJCing and most importantly parrying and shield dropping get more developed as time goes on.
OK then. i like where you put Pika though :pikachu2:
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
Fox Isnt Even that good Tier
-Falco

But He's still Better than everyone else Tier
-Fox

Peach > Puff Tier
-Peach
-Puff
-Sheik
-Marth

Ice Climbers Are 8th Tier
-Falcon
-IC
-Doc
-Ganon
-Mario
-Samus
-Pikachu
-Luigi

Zelda > Mewtwo Tier
-Dk
-Link
-Y. Link
-zelda
-Mew2

Too Bad To Be Low Tier but He's got a CG on Fast Fallers so There's That Tier
-Roy

Yoshi Is Garbage Tier
Yoshi

I Wouldn't Try and Order These Unless You Made Me Tier
-G&W
-Ness
-Kirby
-Bowser
-Pichu

I greatly dislike my own placement of G&W. Having recently seen some higher level G&W play i realize he has significantly more potential than he gets credit for. That said, there is for better or worse, 0 G&W players so Im keeping him in the basically pointless tier.
 

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
Location
CA
Because Yoshi has so much more potential that I think we will be able to tap into in the future. It's the same reason why I put Fox over Falco. Falco right now is much easier to be realistically consistent with, but even 11 years later, people are still improving in any aspect. I hope to see Yoshi's DJCing and most importantly parrying and shield dropping get more developed as time goes on.
I think the biggest realistic improvement we can see in Yoshi players is an increase in DJC N-air shield pressure. From watching V3ctorman's stream lately it seems about as effective, if not slightly less, as Fox/Falco's pressure. The major downside is there's an extremely small window for error.

Zelda > Mewtwo Tier
-Dk
-Link
-Y. Link
-zelda
-Mew2

Yoshi Is Garbage Tier
Yoshi
Care to elaborate on why you think Yoshi is worse than Zelda or Mewtwo?
 

Ziodyne

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
571
Location
UCLA
Fox Isnt Even that good Tier
-Falco

But He's still Better than everyone else Tier
-Fox

Peach > Puff Tier
-Peach
-Puff
-Sheik
-Marth

Ice Climbers Are 8th Tier
-Falcon
-IC
-Doc
-Ganon
-Mario
-Samus
-Pikachu
-Luigi

Zelda > Mewtwo Tier
-Dk
-Link
-Y. Link
-zelda
-Mew2

Yoshi Is Garbage Tier
Yoshi

I Wouldn't Try and Order These Unless You Made Me Tier
-G&W
-Ness
-Kirby
-Bowser
-Pichu

I greatly dislike my own placement of G&W. Having recently seen some higher level G&W play i realize he has significantly more potential than he gets credit for. That said, there is for better or worse, 0 G&W players so Im keeping him in the basically pointless tier.
you forgot a tier

The So Bad I Can't Even Remember He Exists Tier
-Roy
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Top placings:
  • HyperPhoenix
    • 42 entrants
    • Mew2King, Eggm, Redd, Smash G 0 D, Velocity, DoH, Vist
    • I outplaced everyone except the above people (tied for 7th with Vist)
  • Apex 2012
    • Made it out of R1 pools (only lost to Cactuar; Pool 19)
    • Got destroyed in R2 pools
  • References: Mahone, Wenbo, Mango, Vist, DoH, SypherPhoenix


Sheik
Falco
Marth
Captain Falcon
Peach
Fox
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers

Dr. Mario
Luigi
Pikachu
Ganondorf
Mario
Samus
Yoshi
Link
DK

Zelda
Young Link
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness
Mewtwo

Bowser
Roy
Pichu
Kirby
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
1,316
Location
Corvallis, OR
I wondering when that would happen. . . also, wow.

Your Shiek Marth Falcon Fox Puff Luigi and Link placements are really far from the norm. . . as well as a few others.

That was really unexpectedly strange.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I wondering when that would happen. . . also, wow.

Your Shiek Marth Falcon Fox Puff Luigi and Link placements are really far from the norm. . . as well as a few others.

That was really unexpectedly strange.
That was unexpected? Have you seen any of my posts? lol
 

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
Location
CA
Bones, I'm a little curious as to why you think Zelda is better than Young Link. She generally has a campy playstyle because she can't approach but isn't too great at camping to begin with because of her slow speed. Young Link can approach decently well, and he can camp very effectively. He's also a much faster character with numerous projectiles. What did you take into consideration when comparing those two?
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
1,316
Location
Corvallis, OR
Yeah, I've seen your posts, just a good amount of the placings seemed strange. For example, I could have sworn you were in the "Falcon is overrated" camp. . . It seems I was just confused.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Bones, I'm a little curious as to why you think Zelda is better than Young Link. She generally has a campy playstyle because she can't approach but isn't too great at camping to begin with because of her slow speed. Young Link can approach decently well, and he can camp very effectively. He's also a much faster character with numerous projectiles. What did you take into consideration when comparing those two?
I guess I just feel like Zelda has the actual strength in her toes to upset some of the higher tiered characters. The only way YL can beat most characters is to outplay them in an long, drawn out match. The longer a match goes on, the more likely the opponent is to figure out YL and how to beat him. Zelda's grab, as bad as it may be, is still better than YL's, and I just doubt YL's ability to reliably KO anyone other than Peach/Puff. It seems like everyone saw Armada camp Hbox and then assumed every matchup went like that. YL can't camp every top tier though.
 

Griffard

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
748
Location
Geneva, IL/New Orleans, LA
People sleeping on Zelda hard. She' s going to be hardest character to place in my final revision, I think. It's just hard since there are so few Zeldi :(

Coolbrag: just got my first Zelda 4 stock today :happysheep:
 

EpixAura

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
474
Location
Greenville, NC
Credentials: I suck. Really. I'm good at theory crafting and observations, though, for what it's worth. I managed to 2-0 Yeroc once, but that was in P:M and involved a stupidly unfair matchup in game one and a lot of luck in game two.

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff
Peach
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Pikachu
Samus
Mario
Luigi
Young Link
Link
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Game & Watch
Ness
Zelda
Mewtwo
Roy
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

On a related note, while I agree with the logic, I don't understand why people say not to judge Peach entirely off of Armada's performance, but don't say the same thing about Puff and Hbox.
 

FourStar

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
887
Location
NOR CAL
Top placings:
  • HyperPhoenix
    • 42 entrants
    • Mew2King, Eggm, Redd, Smash G 0 D, Velocity, DoH, Vist
    • I outplaced everyone except the above people (tied for 7th with Vist)
  • Apex 2012
    • Made it out of R1 pools (only lost to Cactuar; Pool 19)
    • Got destroyed in R2 pools
  • References: Mahone, Wenbo, Mango, Vist, DoH, SypherPhoenix


Sheik
Falco
Marth
Captain Falcon
Peach
Fox
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers

Dr. Mario
Luigi
Pikachu
Ganondorf
Mario
Samus
Yoshi
Link
DK

Zelda
Young Link
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness
Mewtwo

Bowser
Roy
Pichu
Kirby
this is possibly the weirdest tier list and most different one i have ever seen in my life lol
Falcon in fourth and fox in sixth?
Samus under mario and luigi over pika?
explain :confused:
 

MountainGoat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
247
I can see an argument for putting Fox lower than normal but I can't see Captain Falcon being that high.
 

Tarv

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
425
Location
Outside of Pittsburgh
I'm a little concerned that so few of the top 100 players (or so) have voted. Is it a silent form of protest against the tier list? Are they making their own secret list somewhere? Are they just laughing at us and our poor choice of lists? Not to discredit the players who have voted or anything because there's definitely a good chunk of talented players who have voted; just worried that we're missing a lot of votes from really good, intelligent players. Quite frankly I don't think a tier list can be accurate if we don't take into account the opinions of a majority of those top players.
 

bearsfan092

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
402
Personally I just think it's because the top 100 players are spending more time playing the game rather than debating about it.

Not to put down the work going on here, since a large part of the community cares and therefore benefits from this. If the top players are thinking at all like me, they'd rather just play it out.

EDIT: Whoops, accidentally implied I'm a top player. Don't read it that way please, because I'm still pretty bad.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
I'm a little concerned that so few of the top 100 players (or so) have voted. Is it a silent form of protest against the tier list? Are they making their own secret list somewhere? Are they just laughing at us and our poor choice of lists? Not to discredit the players who have voted or anything because there's definitely a good chunk of talented players who have voted; just worried that we're missing a lot of votes from really good, intelligent players. Quite frankly I don't think a tier list can be accurate if we don't take into account the opinions of a majority of those top players.
Personally I just think it's because the top 100 players are spending more time playing the game rather than debating about it.

Not to put down the work going on here, since a large part of the community cares and therefore benefits from this. If the top players are thinking at all like me, they'd rather just play it out.

EDIT: Whoops, accidentally implied I'm a top player. Don't read it that way please, because I'm still pretty bad.
I think bearsfan hit the mark pretty good. I contacted many people directly, most of them said they would vote but a few were against the idea. I respect their choice even though I don't fully understand their decision.

Some good players have said they would but haven't yet. There are still plenty of lists to come. If there is a player who hasn't voted yet, feel free to contact them and urge them to vote!
 

Dunc

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
12
I have only attended local tournaments with players like KevinM, MattDotZeb, Dazwa, and Mofo. I'm not that great. I place into brackets sometimes but get lowest rank.

1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. Jigglypuff
6. Captain Falcon
7. Peach
8. Dr. Mario
9. Samus
10. Ice Climbers
11. Ganondorf
12. Young Link
13. Pikachu
14. Mario
15. Link
16. Ness
17. Mewtwo
18. DK
19. Yoshi
20. Roy
21. Game & Watch
22. Luigi
23. Bowser
24. Kirby
25. Zelda
26. Pichu
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
you forgot a tier

The So Bad I Can't Even Remember He Exists Tier
-Roy
Yeah I copy/pasted the old tier list and just started deleting/re-adding characters to fit my vote. I deleted Roy cus i wanted to move him but then forgot to re-add him lol. Editing.

Care to elaborate on why you think Yoshi is worse than Zelda or Mewtwo?
Yoshi is garbage. He loses to basic play from Top Tier and High Tier characters. Quite literally you can spam the basics with most upper tier characters and it beats Yoshi as a whole. That said he does have some very strong gimmicks. And yes I'm calling them gimmicks. Gimmicks aren't necessarily bad thing, a lot of characters rely on them. But Yoshi's gimmicks are extremely technically demanding and aren't beneficial enough to his character. Parrying is cool and all but the second you **** up you're now in shield as the only character who can't do anything out of shield. Also Sheiks existence as a whole really hurts Yoshi lol. Zelda and M2 are both pretty garbs characters but Zelda has one extremely powerful option as well as some very useable gimmicks(and just some legitimately good moves mixed in with some absolutely worthless ones) and M2 has one of the best movement games in smash. Powerful options tend to trump somewhat useful gimmicks.
 

FourStar

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
887
Location
NOR CAL
I have only attended local tournaments with players like KevinM, MattDotZeb, Dazwa, and Mofo. I'm not that great. I place into brackets sometimes but get lowest rank.

1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. Jigglypuff
6. Captain Falcon
7. Peach
8. Dr. Mario
9. Samus
10. Ice Climbers
11. Ganondorf
12. Young Link
13. Pikachu
14. Mario
15. Link
16. Ness
17. Mewtwo
18. DK
19. Yoshi
20. Roy
21. Game & Watch
22. Luigi
23. Bowser
24. Kirby
25. Zelda
26. Pichu
noooo.... just noo.... why is the mid tier so mixed up like luigi is 22nd but young link is 12th? explain...
 

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
Location
CA
It seems like everyone saw Armada camp Hbox and then assumed every matchup went like that. YL can't camp every top tier though.
Axe is an example of a player who knows how to play an aggressive Young Link very effectively and beat higher tiers like the Ice Climbers and Peach. Young Link doesn't have to camp to win but he at least has an option to do so. His N-air is very quick and his D-air is a good killing move. Also, I thought you can DI Zelda's throws so she can't follow up on them, but I could be wrong.

Yoshi is garbage. He loses to basic play from Top Tier and High Tier characters. Quite literally you can spam the basics with most upper tier characters and it beats Yoshi as a whole. That said he does have some very strong gimmicks. And yes I'm calling them gimmicks. Gimmicks aren't necessarily bad thing, a lot of characters rely on them. But Yoshi's gimmicks are extremely technically demanding and aren't beneficial enough to his character. Parrying is cool and all but the second you **** up you're now in shield as the only character who can't do anything out of shield. Also Sheiks existence as a whole really hurts Yoshi lol. Zelda and M2 are both pretty garbs characters but Zelda has one extremely powerful option as well as some very useable gimmicks(and just some legitimately good moves mixed in with some absolutely worthless ones) and M2 has one of the best movement games in smash. Powerful options tend to trump somewhat useful gimmicks.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree with your reasoning. I don't know where the idea that spamming basics can beat him came from since he clearly has the mobility and tools to deal with them. In fact, it's quite the opposite of what you're saying: players have to adjust to fighting Yoshi differently than most other characters since he is so unique. Shroomed, PewPewU and others I play with always tell me something along the lines of "Yoshi is so weird. ___ doesn't work on him like it does on other characters!"

I'll give an example to support my argument. When edgeguarding a character like Falcon, you don't really need to think about spacing an aerial to knock him back offstage. If you poorly space an aerial against Yoshi while he's recovering and it doesn't break his double jump, you're going to get punished for it and be counter edgeguarded in most cases. Fox is also unable to shinespike Yoshi when he's recovering at any percentage.

Parrying is extremely beneficial because it's probably the biggest game-changing defensive tactic in the game. Just when you think you hit him your attack gets countered and he has frame advantage because you're in hitlag while he's not. It's not foolproof of course, but it's still an option he has.

You mentioned that Zelda has one extremely powerful option, but Yoshi has multiple. His combo game with U-airs and extremely fast wavelands open up way more options for him that Zelda wishes she had. Yoshi's shield dropping is also the best in the game because he can't get shield stabbed, and he has an extremely good projectile that can be thrown in literally hundreds, if not thousands, of different ways. Zelda is also a much less mobile character.

The Sheik MU really isn't as bad as most people make it out to be because the biggest advantage Sheik has on Yoshi is chaingrabbing, which can be avoided most of the time if the Yoshi player is smart. This is a discussion for another time, though.

In any case, I wasn't disregarding your opinion in the slightest. Considering the lack of Yoshi players and the fact that they're generally not as skilled as mains for higher tiers (no offense intended), I can see how you think the character isn't too great.
 

FourStar

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
887
Location
NOR CAL
i thin Axe is one of few YL's that can be aggressive and not so cheap. Armada is still a beast tho
 

Upke

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
429
Location
Savannah, GA / Cary, NC
I have only attended local tournaments with players like KevinM, MattDotZeb, Dazwa, and Mofo. I'm not that great. I place into brackets sometimes but get lowest rank.

1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. Jigglypuff
6. Captain Falcon
7. Peach
8. Dr. Mario
9. Samus
10. Ice Climbers
11. Ganondorf
12. Young Link
13. Pikachu
14. Mario
15. Link
16. Ness
17. Mewtwo
18. DK
19. Yoshi
20. Roy
21. Game & Watch
22. Luigi
23. Bowser
24. Kirby
25. Zelda
26. Pichu
I'm giving you the #2 jankiest tier list award (Bones gets #1 by default).
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
^so much no in this post.. :(

but I can understand why you believe Yoshi is so bad...

All in due time I hope.. :)
Don't do it Tim, it's not worth it. Just like, play DK or something. ****'s too funny. COME TO THE DONK SIDE!

On a side, note, whenever a player is trying to defend a character, saying something along the lines of "All a yoshi player has to do is play smart and not get grabbed by sheik" is a poor argument(this is true for pretty much any 2 characters) It's like saying "ICs arent that bad, just never get grabbed" It places a tremendous amount of weight into one players skill then ignores the other. Never mind the fact that Sheik is a character who can pretty much confirm any move into grab and most Sheik players are extremely adept at getting them since it's one of her strongest tools. It's not JUST this argument mind you. It comes up a lot in Falcon Vs Marth where someone tries to prove it's even by saying "All falcon players have to do is not let Marth do xyz to him and play this specific way" as if that somehow makes it even. Keep in mind, if all the other character has to do is exactly what they always do, they are probably at the advantage. It's a poor argument is what im saying.
 
Top Bottom