Matchup Export: Ness!

[A1lion835]

[collapse=Ness Summary]

Overview:
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Kirby’s Pros + Cons:

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Watch out for:
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How to win:
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Spit out or Swallow?
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What NOT to do:
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Stages (in order of priority):
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Neutrals: Ranked and Explained

Key: Good, Bad.

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Synopsis:
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Major Contributors: A1lion835, JoWii

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Discuss .

 

[Dajayman]

Kirby and Ness is a pretty close matchup, I'd say it's around 55:45 Kirby's favor.

Kirby's main advantages are his little grab combos he does at low percents and his gimping ability. His main weaknesses are he has no reliable answer to spaced fairs and he's very light and dies easily to any of Ness' many kill moves.

Ness has a really good anti-grab game (we're Ness players, we get grabbed and we get hurt so we're good at avoiding gettong grabbed), but I noticed Kirby mains have weird ways of sneaking in that grab at 0%. What I personally do is just do all anti-grab moves and stay the f*** away from Kirby's grab range, I'd rather eat a bair/smash instead of getting grabbed.

After the percents fthrow shenigans don't work anymore it's basically Kirby spacing with bairs/ftilts. What Ness usually does at this point is either space fairs, runs in during an opening, or uses a PK move. The problem with Ness spacing fair is that its a low risk/low reward move, Ness is really safe while spacing fair to the max but he only does like 1-3% damage a hit. Running in and getting closer to an opponent is obviously riskier but if Ness can land a grab or another aerial besides fair, he can do at least 10%+ damage with the possibility of some followups for more damage. Ness' last option, using PK moves, is a moderate risk/moderate reward option. Ness PK moves have decent range, but every move has lots of vulnerability time for Ness so wiffing these os really bad for us. But if we land these they usually rack up a good 8%+ damage, which is pretty good for a projectile.

I wrote up quite a bit, if anyone has some stuff to add to mine do so. I mostly wrote up on Ness' perspective of things.

 

[_clinton]

I know to avoid Kirby's grab at semi-low %s and watch out for his smash attacks and that hammer at 100% or so (and some other moves as well). I also know not to go off stage when fighting Kirby that much/at all because Dair pretty much ends a Ness stock if he is hit by it (big difference there with comparison to Lucas and his recovery). Don't know if Kirby has an real threatening grab release stuff with Ness, I think a Dtilt is open though, and I know that can trip IIRC.

Ness has a great dash grab and a great pivot grab, his standing grab is poor though, I feel overall that Ness out ranges Kirby by a hair.

Oh and Ness can absorb final cutter as well lol.

 

[Yink]

Kirby and Ness is a pretty close matchup, I'd say it's around 55:45 Kirby's favor.

Kirby's main advantages are his little grab combos he does at low percents and his gimping ability. His main weaknesses are he has no reliable answer to spaced fairs and he's very light and dies easily to any of Ness' many kill moves.

Ness has a really good anti-grab game (we're Ness players, we get grabbed and we get hurt so we're good at avoiding gettong grabbed), but I noticed Kirby mains have weird ways of sneaking in that grab at 0%. What I personally do is just do all anti-grab moves and stay the f*** away from Kirby's grab range, I'd rather eat a bair/smash instead of getting grabbed.

After the percents fthrow shenigans don't work anymore it's basically Kirby spacing with bairs/ftilts. What Ness usually does at this point is either space fairs, runs in during an opening, or uses a PK move. The problem with Ness spacing fair is that its a low risk/low reward move, Ness is really safe while spacing fair to the max but he only does like 1-3% damage a hit. Running in and getting closer to an opponent is obviously riskier but if Ness can land a grab or another aerial besides fair, he can do at least 10%+ damage with the possibility of some followups for more damage. Ness' last option, using PK moves, is a moderate risk/moderate reward option. Ness PK moves have decent range, but every move has lots of vulnerability time for Ness so wiffing these os really bad for us. But if we land these they usually rack up a good 8%+ damage, which is pretty good for a projectile.

I wrote up quite a bit, if anyone has some stuff to add to mine do so. I mostly wrote up on Ness' perspective of things.

I know to avoid Kirby's grab at semi-low %s and watch out for his smash attacks and that hammer at 100% or so (and some other moves as well). I also know not to go off stage when fighting Kirby that much/at all because Dair pretty much ends a Ness stock if he is hit by it (big difference there with comparison to Lucas and his recovery). Don't know if Kirby has an real threatening grab release stuff with Ness, I think a Dtilt is open though, and I know that can trip IIRC.

Ness has a great dash grab and a great pivot grab, his standing grab is poor though, I feel overall that Ness out ranges Kirby by a hair.

Oh and Ness can absorb final cutter as well lol.

Pretty much this stuff, there's hardly anything for me to add to this. I'd watch yourself though as Kirby, because Ness' bthrow will kill you fairly early, even with good DI.

As for the Final Cutter, it recovers ~10%. And no, Kirby doesn't really have anything I know of that's grab release worthy besides some tilts or jab.

Space yourself well as Kirby, watch out for Fairs especially, because from what I noticed it really doesn't stale. it does 11% from a full Fair set. (I tried it earlier on Bowser just to see, I got him to 99% just with full Fairs)

Hope this was somewhat helpful.

 

[_clinton]

Fair stales, the damage range is 5-11 total and you only need one spark to count it as a mark on the thing.

 

[Dajayman]

Fair's damage output is trash, especially used defensively which is how it's supposed to be used most of the time. It's just not meant for damage, it's meant to interrupt and outrange everything.

 

[Yink]

Fair stales, the damage range is 5-11 total and you only need one spark to count it as a mark on the thing.

Yeah you're right. I don't know why I said that then. Derp moment. The Magnet stuff is true though.

 

[_clinton]

Recovery with magnet is based off the freshness of the cutter/every move in general. There is a reason why Falco's laser isn't worth the absorb after a while in a stock ^_^

 

[Dajayman]

That's why Yink said "~10%", meaning 10% max when hit with a fresh FC.

 

[Eagleye893]

Magnet is ALWAYS worth it...

 

[Kappy]

You forgot Hup Canceling, Dajayman

But I agree, slight advantage for Kirby. It's really a game of who has the lead - if Kirby has the lead Ness is going to have a hard time getting inside Kirby, and if Ness has the lead, it's hard for Kirby to get inside Ness. The only real advantage Kirby has is his ability to destroy Ness offtsage.

In terms of killing, Ness wins with Bthrow, Fsmash, Uair, and Bair. Kirby only has Bair and Fsmash, and Ness kills at a lower %.

That's pretty much it. Kirby's moves beat Ness when Ness is approaching, and vice versa. It's just easier for Kirby and Kirby has amazing potential when it comes to gimping Ness.

 

[Dajayman]

Hup canceling makes it 100:0 Kirby. F*** you! DX

 

[AvariceX]

*Also voting for slight advantage Kirby*

Aside from what everyone else has stated though:

-Kirby's bair is really really good in this matchup (well, like any matchup I guess). As mentioned Ness' fair is great for out-spacing everything, but Kirby's bair actually is pretty close in range comparisons, comes out really fast, and is way way way more dangerous than Ness' fair. It's very rarely worth it for Ness to get into a fair vs bair spacing war, so just by keeping the Ness aware of your bair you should be able to make him hesitant to try zoning you out with fair (not enough rhymes!!). Just gotta watch not to stale your bair too much since that and fsmash are really your only kill moves here; I don't think gimping is really that big of an issue since Kirby doesn't have too much without great reads to keep us from holding a position somewhere close to the center of the stage so that with proper DI we shouldn't ever be put in an easily gimped position.

-Just the threat of Stone Drop (especially on stages with few platforms) absolutely kills any potential we might have for PKT followups / mixup, just down-b through it on reaction and onto Ness' head. This makes me /sadface because I love PKT . Honestly Kirby above Ness in the air is way safer than any other character in that position.

-Not that it matters but Kirby's Copy is obviously 100% useless here I mean, PLEASE USE PK FLASH ON OUR DOWN-B IT 0-DEATHS US.

 

[t!MmY]

I would put this around the 90-10 advantage for Kirby, at the least. It could be higher. Nothing Ness has can stop teh B-air, and if Ness does anything other than run away or Shield, he eats a B-air.

 

[Dajayman]

I would put this around the 90-10 advantage for Kirby, at the least. It could be higher. Nothing Ness has can stop hup canceling, and if Ness does anything other than run away or Shield, he eats a hup cancel.

Fixed .