Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Luigi

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General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's two kinds of Luigi matchups. The ones where Fireball is a potent neutral tool, and ones where it's not. Mewtwo is the latter. Between a reflector and a powerful charged projectile, Luigi can't force much out of Mewtwo, which isn't good for him since Mewtwo has much more range and mobility, especially in the air. He can potentially KO Mewtwo very fast with superior frame data, highly damaging combos and swift KO moves, but getting there without powershielding is very difficult, especially with traction even worse than Mewtwo's.

The dthrow to Cyclone setup doesn't really work anymore if you DI outwards, but you should still keep it in mind.

 

[Ryteous]

My practice partner plays a lot of Luigi against my Mewtwo so I do have a few things to add in here

1) Luigi's frame-three nair is a pain in the ass. It makes uptilt-upsmash more difficult, as you have to input it really quickly, so if you aren't 100% certain you get him with the correct hitbox on uptilt, you may be punished for throwing out the upsmash that doesn't hit.

2) Neutral is more difficult than some people might think. If you can avoid getting grabbed, the matchup becomes significantly more in your favor, as Luigi can get really good, really easy combos off on you at low percentages all the way until about 50-60%, which means you're almost dead. Good news is that Luigi has a hard time killing after this percentage

3) If you can establish stage control and keep Luigi off stage, you probably will win. Luigi's options for returning to stage are rather lackluster while mewtwo has a really good offstage game.

 

[G. Stache]

Well, I forgot to post my opinion I this thread, so let me get on with it.

For starters, Luigi has to deal with Mewtwo's neutral game. This is a big thing that Luigi doesn't like in this MU. It isn't as horrible as playing a Mega Man, but Mewtwo has ways to keep Luigi out. Good tilts, great mobility for retreating, Shadow Ball, good ranged jab, etc. Granted, I'd advise Mewtwo to be careful throwing out moves if Luigi is within enough range to get an attack off. One wrongly placed attack can get you jabbed, grabbed, or Naired. All can lead into good conversions and force M2 to play a game of catch up. Other than that, Luigi really likes whiff punishing and baiting out a bad move. Luigi wants to play a somewhat passive neutral if he can. As long as you play more of a defensive game, and respect what Luigi can do, it shouldn't be too hard. The only thing I should warn you is that if you roll too often, cyclone is a good burst movement option to catch a bad roll or spot dodge, so just keep that in mind.

Luigi and M2 both like to crap on each other's disadvantage states. Luigi's combos are in love with M2's big frame and lighter weight. Which means that Luigi can deal out big damage at lower percents, and start trying to KO early with either set ups or just a stray smash attack/up b (if you're feeling lucky about the up b). This is why you don't want Luigi winning neutral much. Mewtwo dies very early and with Luigi's good damage racking, he can bring you to those kill percents faster than most. Mewtwo, to my knowledge, doesn't have too many true combos against Luigi. But his juggles and edgeguards are deadly and Luigi doesn't have a solid game plan to combat it. Just be wary of Luigi's Nair when juggling. It can kill and set up for combos while breaking combos since it comes out frame 3. Not really a move you want get hit with a lot. Keep your space and Luigi shouldn't be too much of a problem. Get too greedy and, with all due respect, you kinda deserve the boot. Edgeguarding can be a hassle for Luigi, but keep in mind that he can keep you guessing with recovery mix ups.

Not gonna give a ratio (though I personally think that Luigi loses the MU) but this is my simpled down take on the MU.

 

[Alexis357]

From my experience, I don't think that is a big threat against , but it can depends of the play-style of each players.

Rush down to Mewtwo is totally ineffective and approaches with fireballs don't always work thanks to his reflector, the best way to play for Luigi is to mix offense and defense, anticipating M2's actions and being unpredictable (With Luigi's Cyclone for exemple).
Being grabbed will probably not happen a lot of time but if it's the case, be careful with Luigi's Up Air that can combo you. You can still interrupt him with a Neutral Air.
Be really careful with your smash attacks, a simple roll and an Up B from Luigi can take your stock very fast because of your cool-down.

Fortunately, there are several things that Luigi fears, taking a lot of (full-charged) Shadow Balls can be dangerous, especially off-stage. Also, that Up Smash and that Up Throw are probably his biggest enemies because they can kill him quite soon and are powerful. Also, in the air, Luigi can be totally vulnerable and Mewtwo is an air monster, you can take Luigi off-stage with several Forward Air. Green Missile can still make an escape, so be careful with misfires.

I don't think that my point of view is complete at all, but I would say that the MU is something as 40:60, in the favor of
Feel free to give me your advice.

 

[meleebrawler]

From my experience, I don't think that is a big threat against , but it can depends of the play-style of each players.

Rush down to Mewtwo is totally ineffective and approaches with fireballs don't always work thanks to his reflector, the best way to play for Luigi is to mix offense and defense, anticipating M2's actions and being unpredictable (With Luigi's Cyclone for exemple).
Being grabbed will probably not happen a lot of time but if it's the case, be careful with Luigi's Up Air that can combo you. You can still interrupt him with a Neutral Air.
Be really careful with your smash attacks, a simple roll and an Up B from Luigi can take your stock very fast because of your cool-down.

Fortunately, there are several things that Luigi fears, taking a lot of (full-charged) Shadow Balls can be dangerous, especially off-stage. Also, that Up Smash and that Up Throw are probably his biggest enemies because they can kill him quite soon and are powerful. Also, in the air, Luigi can be totally vulnerable and Mewtwo is an air monster, you can take Luigi off-stage with several Forward Air. Green Missile can still make an escape, so be careful with misfires.

I don't think that my point of view is complete at all, but I would say that the MU is something as 40:60, in the favor of
Feel free to give me your advice.

I don't know if you meant to write it as Mewtwo's favour and simply mixed up the icons, because otherwise you provide very little insight as to why the opposite may be true. Mewtwo simply has better risk/reward in his staple moves of dtilt and fair compared to Luigi, enough to lessen the risk of a comeback on Luigi's part.

 

[Smashemon]

I don't know if you meant to write it as Mewtwo's favour and simply mixed up the icons, because otherwise you provide very little insight as to why the opposite may be true. Mewtwo simply has better risk/reward in his staple moves of dtilt and fair compared to Luigi, enough to lessen the risk of a comeback on Luigi's part.

I agree with this being in m2's favour because I main Mario and m2 and I play m2 in this mu mainly because of how well luigi is forced to approach and he has to play m2's game.

 

[Alexis357]

I probably forgot some details about that matchup, but some things makes me think that Luigi has an advantage despite the fact that I mainly favored Mewtwo's attributes in my last post.
I remember that sometimes I can meet different Mewtwo players in a row online during certain times but it's not often that I have this occasion. Maybe we can experience the matchup together, that would be cool too.

 

[sparkaura]

From my experience, I don't think that is a big threat against , but it can depends of the play-style of each players.

Rush down to Mewtwo is totally ineffective and approaches with fireballs don't always work thanks to his reflector, the best way to play for Luigi is to mix offense and defense, anticipating M2's actions and being unpredictable (With Luigi's Cyclone for exemple).
Being grabbed will probably not happen a lot of time but if it's the case, be careful with Luigi's Up Air that can combo you. You can still interrupt him with a Neutral Air.
Be really careful with your smash attacks, a simple roll and an Up B from Luigi can take your stock very fast because of your cool-down.

Fortunately, there are several things that Luigi fears, taking a lot of (full-charged) Shadow Balls can be dangerous, especially off-stage. Also, that Up Smash and that Up Throw are probably his biggest enemies because they can kill him quite soon and are powerful. Also, in the air, Luigi can be totally vulnerable and Mewtwo is an air monster, you can take Luigi off-stage with several Forward Air. Green Missile can still make an escape, so be careful with misfires.

I don't think that my point of view is complete at all, but I would say that the MU is something as 40:60, in the favor of
Feel free to give me your advice.

There is no way M2 loses this MU by such a large margin. Luigi is dangerous once he's in but M2 has all the tools to keep him out AND amazing mobility. M2 struggles with rush down Luigis rush down and approach is pretty lack luster. I feel as though this MU is in M2 ls favor. Ball park ratio of 55:45 or 6:4 M2 favor.

 

[Katakiri]

Right off the bat, I'm going to say that this is one of Mewtwo's easiest MUs if not his absolute easiest and I'll explain why.

First off, Mewtwo run circles around Luigi both on the ground and in the air. The best way to fight Luigi is to not fight Luigi as there is not reason to because Luigi has not a single tool to make Mewtwo approach him nor does he have tools to approach Mewtwo. Mewtwo out-ranges Luigi on the ground with D-Tilt, SH F-Air, and Shadow Ball; Shadow Ball halts any and all attempt to approach with Fireball, Nado, or Dash into Shield unless he wants to take 25% to the face or a broken shield; and if Luigi tries to jump, just Up-Air, Up-Tilt juggle him, catch his landing with Shadow Ball, or even just run or Phase past him to regain any lost stage control, he's free if he jumps.

Luigi's best options to get in on Mewtwo are a fast well-spaced RAR B-Air, power shielding, and attempting to roll behind Mewtwo. That's super-bad. B-Air, if it lands, nets Luigi stage control for upwards of a full 5 seconds because Luigi just doesn't have the tools to punish a Mewtwo landing with Confusions, especially on any stage with platforms. And rolling is just obvious and beat by full hopping or Phasing away. Speaking of jumping, Luigi's option to punish Mewtwo for that are really non-threatening at non-KO percents and he doesn't have the air speed to catch your FH Phase into Confusion when you decide to run away so mix-it up obviously but FH or SH Phase often into aerials or Confusion to cross-up. Just be wary of misspacing your SH Phase and landing in a Luigi Up-Smash if he reads it. As a rule of thumb I only SH Phase when I know he's going to dash or jump forward and I usually land with B-Air for safe damage. I'll usually save SH RAR Phase F-Air for when I need to net the KO in this MU.

Speaking of KOing, both character have very solid KO options but getting greedy here is where Luigi can win the MU or rather where Mewtwo can lose it. This is where Mewtwo could be using his more punishable moves but you're still going to want to be dancing around Luigi and running from him for the most part to limit his chances to punish. Pressuring with Shadow Ball is the best thing to do here since forcing him to jump is a pretty easy punish and landing Shadow Ball nets full-stage control or KOs outright. In fact anything that pops Luigi into the air is going to set-up for a follow-up and ideally a gimp so D-Tilt is also a perfectly good tool to throw out. Primarily you just want him off-stage where you can use Mewtwo's high air-speed to spike Green Missile. When off-stage against Luigi always save your jump; you can recover from any Luigi Down-B so long as you have your jump. Always burn Confusion and Teleport first if you're ever recovering low against him and always be wary of D-Smash at the ledge, it can catch your Teleport and hard stage-spike you. But as for on-stage KO options, bait shield with Shadow Ball and RAR Tomahawk Phase cross-ups to net grabs. F-Air's always a good option as well. I wouldn't raw Up-Smash Luigi due to Shoryu but Down-Smash is pretty safe if you don't have a Shadow Ball charged. You're mostly going to get the KO on a read but the read is pretty safe due to how many of Luigi's tools are shut down by Mewtwo in the first place.

Lylat & FD are going to be your worst stages in this MU. Due to Lylat eating Shadow Ball and FD's lack of platforms. Any other stage should be a stomp and even those two stages only help Luigi so much. On Duck Hunt you can either run from Luigi to time-out or stand just to the right of the bush holding a Shadow Ball which stuffs grounded approaches while the bush blocks FH approaches. If you must go to FD for whatever reason, choose one with a flat wall so Luigi's Down-Smash can't stage spike.

This is a clean 70-30 imo. Mewtwo's speed and pressure is just more than what Luigi's kit is built to manage. Neutral is just a complete stomp in Mewtwo's favor; Luigi has to work 3 times harder than Mewtwo just to get some damage. I mean Luigi isn't getting his damage from punishes because good luck punishing Mewtwo as Luigi, no he's getting his damage from reads which is way harder than what Mewtwo needs to do. I think it's winnable for Luigi but I don't think it's consistently winnable hence the 70-30.

And the reason I think this is Mewtwo's best MU bar probably Puff, is that most other character have high mobility, attack disjoints, better projectiles, powerful burst options, a reflector, or something that can keep a Mewtwo on their toes and Luigi doesn't have any of the options that force Mewtwo to play around them. I mean I even think Ganon's Dash Attack/Aerials and Roy's approach options are just way more threatening to a defending Mewtwo than what Luigi has in the MU. And again this is just for Mewtwo, I'm not talking about Luigi in general. Mewtwo is just an almost perfect counter to Luigi's specific toolkit.