Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Greninja

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General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 5 days, with the next thread opening up in about 2/3 days.

 

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So is this board dead afterall or did I choose the wrong character to go first?

Shall I invite the Greninja board and let them get the first word in?

 

[Sonicninja115]

I don't know how many people have greninja experience...
But I have a little so here we go.
Mewtwo Pros
Combo game
Outspace
Hard to gimp
Can gimp greninja pretty easily
Cons
Light
Floaty
Greninja Pros
Fast kill options
Good approach options
Faster/better projectile
Fast recovery
Cons
Readable recovery
No real combos

I don't know a whole lot about the MU so sorry... You should try asking people on the Greninja boards to give their input!

 

[FullMoon]

I don't know how many people have greninja experience...
But I have a little so here we go.
Mewtwo Pros
Combo game
Outspace
Hard to gimp
Can gimp greninja pretty easily
Cons
Light
Floaty
Greninja Pros
Fast kill options
Good approach options
Faster/better projectile
Fast recovery
Cons
Readable recovery
No real combos

I don't know a whole lot about the MU so sorry... You should try asking people on the Greninja boards to give their input!

Well it really shows that you don't know the MU, or really, anything about Greninja. No offense.

Greninja definitely has the upper hand in this MU. Mewtwo dies super early to Up-Smash (70% with no rage) plus we have ways of setting it up for a kill (D-Tilt and N-Air namely).

Not only that, it's easy to hit Mewtwo with most of combos in spite of him being so light because his hurtbox is big (not helping that his tail is still a hurtbox as well).

Mewtwo has very strong moves himself, but Greninja not being that light usually gives him better survivability than Mewtwo in most cases. Both characters have a killing Up-Throw though obviously Mewtwo's better.

Neither character can edgeguard the other very well, there's likely not going to be much offstage fight between them at all.

Confusion makes using fully charged shurikens a no-no. Uncharged ones are very good though and even if Mewtwo reflects them we don't really lose much, shurikens are also faster than Shadow Ball and so more spammable and they can also help prevent Mewtwo from charging it up.

Honestly... I don't think Mewtwo has much going for him here. I suppose his tail moves outspace us but he doesn't really get much out of them, Up-Tilt can combo into Up-Smash but that's just one thing.

Greninja has a better combo game, is faster, kills Mewtwo earlier than he kills him (being at around 65% is already death percent for Mewtwo, pretty much, especially factoring in rage), has a better projectile overall (though charged Shadow Ball needs to be respected). Mewtwo has better throws for killing and I guess better range on some moves and that's pretty much all I can think of.

I think this MU could be as bad as 65:35 in Greninja's favor honestly.

 

[RayNoire]

^I agree with most of that. Only thing I'll say is that edgeguarding Greninja is pretty low-risk due to his aerials not being great for challenging, Up-B having no hitbox above, and Side-B being punishable even if Mewtwo is covering something else. So Mewtwo at least should be aggressive offstage.

Also, Dtilt is pretty landable in this matchup and can lead to a fair amount of damage.

I don't want to use numbers since they're kind of arbitrary, but I put Greninja a tier below our hard counter matchups, and consider him a soft counter about on par with Diddy.

 

[Gunla]

It's probably in the 40:60 range with a Greninja advantage.

Mewtwo has decent tools offstage, but don't expect to really easily gimp unless you go for a dair meteor.

Some thoughts:

• Mewtwo will get outcamped by Shuriken, or at least Uncharged. Do not try to match it with Shadow Ball. Charged ones should be punished to their fullest, though from a distance they may not reconnect. If a Mewtwo sees a Gren charging, they should get close and reflect.
• Mewtwo isn't as gimpable as other characters, but he has a knack for dying early to Stuff -> Fair at lower percents due to his weight. As for gimping Greninja, it's quite difficult to do so thanks to Sneak sending Greninja down rather quickly, as well as HP doing the job very well as a follow up. Your main bet it to try and read a poor usage of SS and meet it with a Dair, and if he's got enough %, you might get lucky. However, I'd expect this to be mostly a stage-specific affair.
• Mewtwo's larger range is handicapped by the slow startup of some of his moves. Bair and Uair will stop some of M2's moves.
• Just... don't try and be above Greninja. As my fellow ninja said above, Mewtwo dies quite early to USmash and will get juggled by UAir.

Customs to watch for:

• With the new update, the only real customs people use are Stagnant Shuriken and Exploding Attack. Your main concern will be the latter, because it has a pretty heavy knockback that can kill deceptively early at ledge. It's best to use Air Confusion to try and get out of the way of it if you're recovering.

 

[Browny]

Challenge greninjas hydro pump with nair, send him down to hell.

 

[FullMoon]

Challenge greninjas hydro pump with nair, send him down to hell.

Good luck doing that against a Greninja that knows how to mix-up their recovery.

People really don't seem to understand just how good his recovery is lol.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Good luck doing that against a Greninja that knows how to mix-up their recovery.

People really don't seem to understand just how good his recovery is lol.

His recovery is very good, but it lacks a hitbox. In other words the only tools Mewtwo has to challenge HP is to nair or read into a bair. And Dair is to risky on account of it being a small hitbox with only a few active frames.

And question, how well do you know Mewtwo? Most of the people here have been playing him since he came out and have considerable knowledge about OUR character, while you have considerable knowledge of YOUR character. unless you play mewtwo, please stop demeaning us and putting down our boards when chances are we know Mewtwo better then you do. Nair and Bair are the only viable options Mewtwo has at ledgeguarding a greninja, and because Nair has a long lasting hitbox, it would work.

 

[FullMoon]

His recovery is very good, but it lacks a hitbox. In other words the only tools Mewtwo has to challenge HP is to nair or read into a bair. And Dair is to risky on account of it being a small hitbox with only a few active frames.

And question, how well do you know Mewtwo? Most of the people here have been playing him since he came out and have considerable knowledge about OUR character, while you have considerable knowledge of YOUR character. unless you play mewtwo, please stop demeaning us and putting down our boards when chances are we know Mewtwo better then you do. Nair and Bair are the only viable options Mewtwo has at ledgeguarding a greninja, and because Nair has a long lasting hitbox, it would work.

I wasn't refering to you guys only. A lot of times I've seen people talking about how Greninja is "easily gimpable" and other things, not just here, that's what I was talking about.

If you go offstage to edgeguard Greninja, you put yourself at the risk of being hit by Shadow Sneak offstage and considering Mewtwo's weight, that can easily result in a stock. Greninja also can aim Hydro Pump to get around N-Air.

Hell, Greninja's airspeed and double jump are so good that he could be able to get back without having to use neither of his recovery moves.

I'm not saying that you guys can't do it, but it's going to be very tough to do it consistently just because we have too much variety in our recovery.

 

[meleebrawler]

I wasn't refering to you guys only. A lot of times I've seen people talking about how Greninja is "easily gimpable" and other things, not just here, that's what I was talking about.

If you go offstage to edgeguard Greninja, you put yourself at the risk of being hit by Shadow Sneak offstage and considering Mewtwo's weight, that can easily result in a stock. Greninja also can aim Hydro Pump to get around N-Air.

Hell, Greninja's airspeed and double jump are so good that he could be able to get back without having to use neither of his recovery moves.

I'm not saying that you guys can't do it, but it's going to be very tough to do it consistently just because we have too much variety in our recovery.

That airspeed basically gets cut in half when you're readying a sneak, though, a dead giveaway to anyone familiar with greninja.

Greninja is difficult to fully gimp outright but it still isn't too difficult to challenge once you've figured out what he intends to do.

 

[FullMoon]

That airspeed basically gets cut in half when you're readying a sneak, though, a dead giveaway to anyone familiar with greninja.

Greninja is difficult to fully gimp outright but it still isn't too difficult to challenge once you've figured out what he intends to do.

Greninja can also fast fall before charging Shadow Sneak, which makes him fall super slowly and allows him to stall before releasing it, which can also mess you up.

Also, Hydro Pump is still a good tool for edgeguarding Mewtwo. If the water hits you during the move's short start-up or just before you use it, it will really mess up with your movement and will set you up for punishment and it's completely safe for Greninja to try it.

Mewtwo is just as "gimpable" as Greninja is.

 

[Coffee™]

Mewtwo has better tools for gimping as far as this matchup goes, mainly Nair, Bair and Confusion but as long the Greninja player conserves their second jump and uses Shadow Sneak safely, I don't see these 2 having the greatest time trying to capitilize on the other when they're trying to recover.

Greninja's Bair and Hydro Pump can be problematic for Mewtwo to deal with when recovering but Greninja can only really secure hits with them on reads. Otherwise Mewtwo has multiple options to deal with these offstage.

Personally, I dont think Mewtwo does bad against Greninja as his range combined with mobility allows him to pressure Greninja's ideal zoning area pretty well.

If I'd have to put a number on this I'd say its probably 45-55 Mewtwo as Greninja can sometimes get really low percent kills with a simple Usmah read, but other than that neither really seems to have a notable advantage in any game state so I'd probably just rank it at even.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't have much experience with the matchup except for 1-2 good Greninja's.

Basically the most important facts are:

Don't be above Greninja at any time.

Don't let Greninja just Fast Fall diagonally into you. His N-Air is literally unpunisheable after it's out and if you punish it before it comes out with U-Tilt, even if you land it he still gets to punish you out of it because of how fast he falls (this is at low %s obviously, at high %s U-Tilt is safe). This only leaves 1 punish which is U-Smash but if Greninja baits it then you're as good as dead. So, as I said, try to avoid this situation as much as possible.

Greninja's dash grab is really fast and has really good range, just always be ready for it.



As others have said, be aggresive vs offstage Greninja. Sure he can hydro pump onto the stage and avoid you completely, but that's just it. Greninja will mostly be looking to mix up his recovery with the sole purpose of avoiding you, not punishing you.

So basically it's a free edge guard even if you miss it 100% of the time, you won't get punished (as long as you keep an eye out for Shadow Sneak and U-Air. Both of which are moves very easy to keep track off when Greninja is offstage).

 

[Jetkick]

It always seemed kinda dangerous to go offstage against M2, so I try to keep off stage play either right at the edge or at the blast zone (Full Length air shadow sneak) i dont really chance anything if they have me downloaded though. will just wait for bait and just capitalize on that.

 

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Great to see this start to see some activity. Will keep this open for an extra day, but I will go ahead and start up the next round.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't think this MU is too bad for mewtwo I've only played it once though.

Greninja has superior mobility and a faster jab than mewtwo the goal is to keep greninja out. Dash grab is really strong for greninja. He also has a very strong combo game that can lead to kills. If you respect usmash his kill ability isn't that much.

What mewtwo has on greninja is range and confusion. He also has some faster moves than greninja like fair and nair are faster than his. I do believe that mewtwo wins the neutral in this MU. Neither character has good OoS options but I think Greninja's are slightly worse. If you can keep greninja out you'll win. If he gets in on you he'll open you up.