Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Fox

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General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 5 days, with the next thread opening up in about 2/3 days.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo is very good at gimping fox, Mewtwo just has the options to cover all his recovery moves. Mewtwo also has a good anti approach tool in the form of Dtilt. With this and SB it makes it safer for Mewtwo to be defensive. Fox still has his smash attacks which are almost spammable and his fast movement speed. I think this MU is 55/45 foxes favor maybe a bit more.

 

[meleebrawler]

Probably one of the toughest top tier match-ups in the game for Mewtwo. Fox just moves so fast that it's difficult to get a read on his movements, makes landing extremely tough and can let him fiercely punish even the smallest mistakes Mewtwo makes. Resetting to the ledge is often your best option since his offstage options aren't very potent. While he's quite comboable off of a solid hit and can be edgeguarded, getting those opportunities can be tough. His reflector also mitigates shadow ball usage, he can easily dodge if he gets caught in a losing tennis match.

60-40 Fox. He just dictates the pace of the match better than Mewtwo can with his speed, though his mistakes can be costly.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hmm I wonder if I'm overly pessimistic when it comes to this mu but I see it as 8-2 in fox's favor. I think it's mewtwo's worse MU also.

I feel like fox punish almost everything mewtwo does on shield. Then fox wins neutral. Combos mewtwo for days. Toss in his mobility and superior frame data I find this MU to be ridiculously hard for mewtwo. I fel like mewtwo has to commit to everything he does and fox just ignores it

 

[Mightyno.M]

Hmm I wonder if I'm overly pessimistic when it comes to this mu but I see it as 8-2 in fox's favor. I think it's mewtwo's worse MU also.

I feel like fox punish almost everything mewtwo does on shield. Then fox wins neutral. Combos mewtwo for days. Toss in his mobility and superior frame data I find this MU to be ridiculously hard for mewtwo. I fel like mewtwo has to commit to everything he does and fox just ignores it

I'm pretty confident in saying that there are no matchups in this game that is worse than 6-4 do to a 30-70 matchup being that in which a character can 0 to death a character easily and has other advantages
(like pikachu fox brawl)

The match-up I'm not sure since I usually would use Charizard or ditto for this instead but I assume that fox can still combo mewtwo despite being a floaty and can die to many setups and smashes at around 80-90 percent

So essentially Fox can take away a third of mewtwos health off one confrontation

As for Mewtwo he can kill fox just as early but he needs to work harder to wrack up damage but Mewtwo can make it hard for fox to approach or at the very least have decent punishes for a bad approach but both cannot out camp each other do to the very existence of both having reflectors along side fox's sheer speed

Mewtwo I don't believe would have a problem gimping fox especially if u can teleport cancel and with mewtwos reach he can hit fox's if they try to recover on a platform or on stage and if he is far from the stage u can just chain back airs
On the flip side fox cannot shinespike u and A fair spike won't kill as well but I doubt he'll go for that but at the same time fox is fast enough to punish all of your get up options and a read can easily be the end of your stock

Don't get hit by a reflected shadow ball it just looks bad and will probably kill u

I'd give this matchup easily to fox which is a no brainer but I don't think this is far from unwinnable and I feel Mewtwo has the potential to wreck havock on fox's and other fast fallers but that is just a general weakness of being a fast faller

 

[meleebrawler]

Hmm I wonder if I'm overly pessimistic when it comes to this mu but I see it as 8-2 in fox's favor. I think it's mewtwo's worse MU also.

I feel like fox punish almost everything mewtwo does on shield. Then fox wins neutral. Combos mewtwo for days. Toss in his mobility and superior frame data I find this MU to be ridiculously hard for mewtwo. I fel like mewtwo has to commit to everything he does and fox just ignores it

Shield punishes shouldn't be that bad if you are remotely decent at spacing with Mewtwo. He also doesn't really have much in the way of true combos on mewtwo, even his utilt strings don't last for too long with Mewtwo's light weight. His high running speed and scary juggling options can make it fairly easy for him to pressure Mewtwo into making a bad move that he can punish, though.

Fox is fast and has fast moves but they don't have too much range, if you can react Mewtwo CAN stop them. Dtilt at the very least stops Fox from simply going ham on Mewtwo, and his airspeed isn't too good either so an aerial contest is generally good for Mewtwo. Fox's throws also lack potency at higher percents so shielding when in doubt isn't such a bad idea.

Try to pick a stage that has platforms off the main one like Town & City since they can provide additional safe landing spots.

But whatever. This is the king of hyberbole who also thinks Rosalina, a far slower character is either 80:20 or 70:30 in her favour.

 

[Nobie]

Fox losing the jab infinite on Mewtwo was so huge.

Fox I think has an advantage in this matchup, but it can't be underestimated just how light Fox is. Sure, Mewtwo's light too, but up throw kills Fox fairly early, and if not that, then back throw, Up Smash and more can end a stock absurdly quickly.

I think Captain Falcon is far more of a pain to fight. Once you get Fox off his feet, you can take advantage of that high fall speed pretty comfortably.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Shield punishes shouldn't be that bad if you are remotely decent at spacing with Mewtwo. He also doesn't really have much in the way of true combos on mewtwo, even his utilt strings don't last for too long with Mewtwo's light weight. His high running speed and scary juggling options can make it fairly easy for him to pressure Mewtwo into making a bad move that he can punish, though.

Fox is fast and has fast moves but they don't have too much range, if you can react Mewtwo CAN stop them. Dtilt at the very least stops Fox from simply going ham on Mewtwo, and his airspeed isn't too good either so an aerial contest is generally good for Mewtwo. Fox's throws also lack potency at higher percents so shielding when in doubt isn't such a bad idea.

Try to pick a stage that has platforms off the main one like Town & City since they can provide additional safe landing spots.

But whatever. This is the king of hyberbole who also thinks Rosalina, a far slower character is either 80:20 or 70:30 in her favour.

I told you what numbers I gave the Rosalina MU. I didn't list it past a 7-3 so why are you taking my words out of context? If you're going to do crap like that don't even bother quoting me. I couldn't care less about people that taake the things I say outta context.

 

[Browny]

Fox gets nothing off his throws at high %, his edgeguarding is terrible and if he tries to punish a ledge get up with something hard, he opens himself up to a pretty early KO with bthrow.

Fox's kill set ups are almost always dair/nair to upsmash. Dont let him land those moves on your head. Its better to shield camp and get grabbed 10 times in a row then to try and anti-air those approaches and end up dying at 80%, because youll lose most of the time.

Treat him like Yoshi, avoid his dair like the plague.

 

[RayNoire]

Our 3rd hardest MU after Falcon and Mario. 8-2 isn't far off. Our only saving grace is edgeguarding, which still isn't free at all. (That and the fact that most Foxes don't know that fresh SB breaks reflector, giving you a free stock exactly once.)

 

[meleebrawler]

Our 3rd hardest MU after Falcon and Mario. 8-2 isn't far off. Our only saving grace is edgeguarding, which still isn't free at all. (That and the fact that most Foxes don't know that fresh SB breaks reflector, giving you a free stock exactly once.)

I really think people should stop basing Mewtwo matchup thoughts purely on what happens when he gets hit or punished.

Mewtwo has the means to beat Fox's approaches, you just have to be quick yourself to take advantage of this.
Both can inflict serious damage on each other with a solid hit and have some trouble landing. Fox has an easier time capitalizing with his speed giving him an edge in neutral, but he struggles with good shielding at high percents, and his smashes are quite punishable.

 

[HakuryuVision]

We really should do this the way they did this in the M2 vs Ryu MU thread, and spar online to better analyze this.
So far, i have somewhat more positive expirience with this MU, but may be because i haven't fought any really strong Fox players.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

We really should do this the way they did this in the M2 vs Ryu MU thread, and spar online to better analyze this.
So far, i have somewhat more positive expirience with this MU, but may be because i haven't fought any really strong Fox players.

I've played the MU quite a bit online and only really feel dread and despair when this mu comes up.

 

[meleebrawler]

I've played the MU quite a bit online and only really feel dread and despair when this mu comes up.

That's because lag makes it 3x harder to react to everything Fox does. You also have no platforms to mix up your landing with.

I'm more scared of Little Mac since you flat out cannot challenge anything he does on the ground.

We really should do this the way they did this in the M2 vs Ryu MU thread, and spar online to better analyze this.
So far, i have somewhat more positive expirience with this MU, but may be because i haven't fought any really strong Fox players.

If you're not losing to players less skilled than you using Fox, that's already a good sign that the matchup is not as bad as 2:8.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's because lag makes it 3x harder to react to everything Fox does. You also have no platforms to mix up your landing with.

I'm more scared of Little Mac since you flat out cannot challenge anything he does on the ground.



If you're not losing to players less skilled than you using Fox, that's already a good sign that the matchup is not as bad as 2:8.

Maybe you're right. I'm going to my first tournament in a couple of months and I'll try to get some friendlies in with a fox player and see if it's lag distorting my view on the MU. I don't think I've beaten any fox I've come across. Regardless of skill but that could be just my mindset before the match.

I also noticed a trend of people on these boards not really being honest about charactee MU. They claim MUs to be better than what they are. I basically ignore those people. This game isn't as balanced as people would lead you to believe.

 

[Nobie]

The thing that makes the Fox matchup not THAT crazy is that he's pretty vulnerable to getting juggled/comboed, and Mewtwo is just fast enough for him to capitalize on the small vulnerability windows that Fox possesses. That's where lag can screw things up a ton. Everyone can easily see what Fox can do to Mewtwo, but Mewtwo can really catch and punish Fox's landings and average range.

 

[meleebrawler]

Maybe you're right. I'm going to my first tournament in a couple of months and I'll try to get some friendlies in with a fox player and see if it's lag distorting my view on the MU. I don't think I've beaten any fox I've come across. Regardless of school but that could be just my mindset before the match.

I also noticed a trend of people on these boards not really being honest about charactee MU. They claim MUs to be better than what they are. I basically ignore those people. This game isn't as balanced as people would lead you to believe.

Maybe that's because most people here play Mewtwo fairly extensively and know there's more to him than just getting hit and dying easily. You can't just pick him up and understand him completely in a few hours like Luigi, each of his moves have use and you need to practice them extensively to know what those are and when the best time to use them is.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Maybe that's because most people here play Mewtwo fairly extensively and know there's more to him than just getting hit and dying easily. You can't just pick him up and understand him completely in a few hours like Luigi, each of his moves have use and you need to practice them extensively to know what those are and when the best time to use them is.

*sigh* I can't with you anymore. Please stop responsing to my post I'm tired of your attacks and you taking things I say out of context.

 

[HakuryuVision]

Can definitely confirm that this MU is way easier to handle offline.
Got the chance to fight an old friend of mine (who mains Fox since melee), and while he won the majority of our battles, i never had the feeling like this MU was unwinnable, or unfair.
Definitely in Fox' favor, but no 2:8
Even managed to teleport-cancel ledge trump him and kill him with Bair! : D
(...once.)

*sigh* I can't with you anymore. Please stop responsing to my post I'm tired of your attacks and you taking things I say out of context.

...where did THAT come from?
meleebrawler didn't "attack" you in any way. : /

 

[Karsticles]

I think the best way to handle this matchup is to charge Shadow Ball, and then almost never throw it. Fox players love to go for random Fox Reflectors while approaching, because they want that hype yomi reflect kill. Just dash attack or grab them when this happens - free hits. Keep the Shadow Ball charged as long as they are randomly using Fox Reflector, because it's doing its work just by being charged.

Use Shadow Ball when:
1) The Fox player is overextending, or you can footsie punish a whiff.
2) You learn the Fox Reflector timing. Every Fox player has an innate amount of time they like to leave the reflector up in the neutral, just like Ness. Learn when they "get tired" of having it up, which is usually half a second or so. Throw Shadow Ball right when they usually let the Reflector down, and catch them on the recovery - takes lots of practice.

Understand that a fresh Shadow Ball wins the reflect war. If Shadow Ball isn't fresh, charge it only 75% of the way, and Mewtwo still wins the reflect war and 1HKOs Fox. Only go for the Reflect kill once against a player - they'll never fall for it again, if they even do the first time.

Uncharged Shadow Ball is pretty much always a bad idea - it's easy to reflect back since it's so slow, and Mewtwo never wins the uncharged reflect war because the ball moves so fast after a while.

Always go for the gimp instead of charging Shadow Ball if you get him off the ledge. Always.

One of our worst matchups - maybe 60-40. Not as bad as Sheik, but Sheik is bull****.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I played the fox MU a bit offline like I said I would and nothings really changed my opinion of the MU. It was funny to see the reaction of the fox player when he couldn't reflect shadowball and died. Ither than that he walked all over me.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I don't know how well this will help the MU in mewtwo's favor but I found a low percent kill combo on fox.

19-27% links afterward and if you make a small read it can still kill.

Dtilt-Fair-DJ Fair it will all true combo and will kill at 26-27% it is not DI'able and will kill at the edge of the stage, not extreme edge but about roll distance. You can also improve it by making Mewtwo be as close to Fox as possible on the first fair to better link them and make it kill easier.

After 27% they can jump/Airdodge. However, if they don't know that then sucks to be them. and if they air dodge they will be so far away from the stage that they might die anyways. or you could get back to the stage faster and gimp them.

The Dtilt-DJ Uair-Fair combo also works at a medium percent, it will kill at about 80% until 100%