Meta Match Up Discussion - Vs. Charizard

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General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Why must Mewtwo and Charizard fight? Couldn't the two get so much more done if they worked together?

Uh, anyway, I think this matchup goes slightly in Charizard's favor. Heavy weights in general scare Mewtwo, with all our kills moves and whatnot, but Zard comes with the added bonus of an incredible kill throw. Furthermore, Zard is very risky to edge guard against with his heavy armored Flare Blitz. That move can kill you if you get too greedy with an edge guard attempt. It's best for Mewtwo to stay on stage and use that chance to charge up Shadow Ball or something.

That said, not all is lost for Mewtwo. Shadow Ball might be able to even the playing field, with Zard having a hard time dealing with projectiles thanks to heavy weight syndrome and all. Zard specializes in juggles, but Two has a couple tools to avoid that, namely like Confusion and Teleport.

The main gameplan for Mewtwo is to not get hit. Play it safe, and don't give Zard any chance to punish you. Shadow Ball gives Two a huge edge against Zard in neutral, so take advantage of it and don't let Zard get in any good hits.

 

[arbustopachon]

Personally i think the matchup is in Mewtwo's favor.

Mewtwo has better mobility, has better frame data and despite Zard being a heavy he still kills us at relatively early percents.
Mewtwo's low weight actually kinda helps him escape some of zard's mixups like jab2 grab/fly. Also fully charged Shadow ball murders Zard's Flare blitz. M2 has an easy time edgeguarding zard while zard struggles to edgeguard m2 properly.

Abuse Zard's relatively poor landing options, and play safe, he can kill you at very low percents. Respect his jab and aerials, specially bair. Remember that his Fair and bair are now safe on shield when properly spaced.

Also learn to Di his u-throw and mixup your di if he d-throws you. At low percents he can also do b-throw to fair so look out for that.

At mid percents look out for sourspot nairs, should you get hit by one and fail to tech, zard can lock you with U-smash. Should this, very unlikely situation, happen you are pretty much dead.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Gimping charizard is rather easy. There is always the possibility of being reverse edge-guarded, but with good teching skill it isn't a problem. Dair will beat the later frames of Up B, because of the invincibilty ending, small hitbox on the tip, and the ledge snap vulnerability. Bair destroys his recovery, and if you are at lower percents and confident in your tech skill, then take the possible Side B hit to kill him. Also, you mini SB to force an airdodge or frame trap him. They also are good for abusing the 50 frame no ledge grab mechaninc, allowing for an easy punish.

On stage, Mewtwo's should have little to fear. Charizard has good moves, but Mewtwo can force him to approach. Walk around, use tilts, Phasing and charge SB to force him to come to you, and then punish his mediocre option. Disable his landing lag, SH Disable if you want to be safe. SH Fair to catch his SH Fair.

How does Charizard win against a competent Mewtwo? I usually just mess around, but if you play seriously, the Charizard has to rely on reads and frame traps.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well, it seems people disagree with me about offstage Charizard. Maybe I'm just too used to fighting bad players, but I'm not used to people being able to hit Zard while Flare Blitz is in start up on time.

I've also been reconsidering the matchup, and yeah, I take back what I said about Zard having an advantage. Zard relies on Mewtwo messing up a few times in order to get good hits on him, so if a Mewtwo plays well, they should have the advantage. But it's still very important to avoid slipping up, because Zard has a number of ways to finish Mewtwo off.

 

[Virum]

Mewtwo definitely has the slight advantage in this MU. Mewtwo's concern vs, say, DK is not quite the same as it is vs Charizard. In the Mewtwo vs DK match-up, despite Mewtwo's stronger neutral he has to do a lot of work to take DK's stocks whereas DK only really needs to win neutral a couple of times until Mewtwo is at death percent from a grab (Cargo UThrow to UAir killing absurdly early vs him). Coupled with DK having more solid frame data compared to his fellow heavies and very solid disjointed pokes it leads to the MU being hard for Mewtwo.

Charizard doesn't have these. His UThrow is potent but no where near as potent as Cargo UThrow to UAir and Zard's overall vertical resilience is worse than DK's so Mewtwo's UThrow poses more of a threat. Charizard does have his fantastic frame 4 jab however, which outbuttons all of Mewtwo's tools; as well as his now improved, safe and absurdly powerful BAir which at max rage will snatch Mewtwo's stocks away at around 70% centre stage but for the most part Mewtwo should have control of the neutral thanks to his superior speed and mobility alongside Shadow Balls to force Charizard to approach. He can also do a good job capitalising on Zard's poor landing options and awful evasive options.

Be mindful of how you space your moves on Zard's block. Zard's awful traction means that he'll often be knocked out of range for his potentially most useful oos options to have much of an effect (e.g. grab, USmash, Fly), and he has limited options vs cross-ups due to NAir's hitbox hitting too late.

 

[Megamang]

Id say watch for high platforms empowering zards kill throw, and respect the hell outta bair. Like, if he turns his back to you, get outta there asap. Bair is insane

 

[Nobie]

All of Charizard's recent buffs are exactly the sort of thing that help out in a Mewtwo matchup. More damage and safer aerials means getting Mewtwo to death percentages faster and avoiding punishes a bit more easily. Faster air speed means avoiding juggles better, which is really important against Mewtwo. That said, I do think Mewtwo still has the edge, maybe 60:40 or less.

It was mentioned that Charizard's frame 4 jab outspeeds everything Mewtwo has to offer but that's only if Charizard can get close enough to use it. At a certain distance Mewtwo's down tilt will outrange jab enough to beat it without getting hit in return, and will then also be fast enough to outspeed Charizard's longer-range moves. It's very much a matter of spacing and positioning between the two. Unfortunately for Charizard, Mewtwo's recent speed buffs over the past few patches give M2 an advantage in terms of overall movement.

I know we should assume that a good Charizard will use Flare Blitz intelligently, but I still think it's so important to note how strong a punish Mewtwo has against it. Even putting aside Shadow Ball as an anti-Flare Blitz weapon, you can literally shield it, run up, and do a partially charged up Smash and end Charizard's stock below 100%. Heck, you could do that before all of the speed buffs, so I'm pretty sure Mewtwo can get an even longer charge on that up smash now.

 

[Browny]

Play reactionary

Don't land aerials on his shield

Don't try to shieldgrab his spaced fair or you're going to die at 60 to fsmash