Match-up Discussion 6 - King Dedede

[Sky Pirate]

KING DEDEDE

Advantage/Disadvantage: +2​

A long grab, huge feet, and an annoying Ftilt!
They say this is is an easy match-up.
He does have certain tools that can beat us if we aren't careful, though.​

We need the following information:​

-STAGES-
"Best" starters for Oli:
"Worst" starters for Oli:
"Best" counterpicks for Oli:
"Worst" counterpicks for Oli:

Notable "move beats move" situations:

Opponent's primary tools:
How we can deal with opponent's primary tools:

Anything else:
(This section includes gimmicks, minor notes, and anything else that isn't covered)

Don't restrict conversation to just these points.
These are just guidelines to help discussion.
Discuss!​

 

[Sky Pirate]

I know we can combo him to hell and back and get some good latch damage.
Camping is hands-down the best way to approach this match-up.

I THINK his main tools are Ftilt, Grab, and Inhale.
He can tech-chase us fairly easily compared to certain other characters, which could give us a lot of damage and put us at an edge if we keep getting read.

Ftilt beats some of our moves, but I can't remember which of ours can beat it. Obviously, powershielding would be useful.

Inhale generally beats our grab/Usmash/Dsmash and gives our Fsmash a SUPERBOOST!
I think it also beats our tilts, but I'm not sure. Anyone know?

Oh, and Bair can be a pain offstage but it's a LITTLE slow between hits, so whistling it is probably a good idea.
I think it's usually falling sourspotted Bair to rising Bair or something like that.

 

[Cracker1204]

don't get grabbed (especially at the edge), if you do get grabbed, don't get gimped.

I'm still being more productive than you hilt v better than posting nothing.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

And thaaaaat decides it. Don't like this kid, lol.

 

[Llumys]

Pick Battlefield. It feels like a 4.

 

[Cook]

Imo you really want to stay on the move rather than trying to hold your ground. If he approaches in the air then he is usually either going to b-air you or reverse inhale you. If he b-airs then you can just shield it and punish. However, if you're just sitting in your shield waiting for the b-air then he can reverse inhale and get you through your shield. The way to beat that is to roll behind him while he is in the air if you think he is gonna swallow (if you wait until the inhale comes out then it can get you at the beginning of your roll). Of course, if you always roll then he can punish that by dropping down and grabbing or whatever. Another safe solution is to just always run from him when he's landing and focus more on latch damage.

If he is staying in the air a lot and trying to avoid you remember that his d-air beats Oli's up-air, but he somewhat has to predict you, so it isn't really a bad idea to go after him, just be careful that he doesn't turn the tables on you because you don't want to be in the air while he is on the ground. His grab is very good for punishing landings and putting you back in the air.

If he is approaching on the ground don't just mindlessly spam f-smash or grab. He can powershield f-smash and grab you or spot-dodge grab and grab you. Pivot-grabbing is pretty safe, but you do lose ground. Charging f-smash can help throw off his powershield timing.

When recovering it is usually safer to try to go above him imo rather than recovering low. Spam dat whistle because his b-air is really good for gimping (comes out in 6 frames).

Don't try to grab him when he is inhaling, just f-smash or f-air. That's about all I got. Oh, and his spotdodge is REALLY good, which is part of why you don't want to get in a standing-in-place battle with him.

 

[Sky Pirate]

That's a pretty good write-up, Cook. ^_^

I know Fsmash can beat his spotdodge, but what about Nair?
Lasting frame 7-23 with one "no hitbox" frame every third frame seems like it might be good for that if he's too close for Fsmash or something.

 

[Cook]

According to the DDD board's frame data his spotdodge has 18 frames of invincibility, so n-air doesn't automatically beat it. Of course, you can n-air it, but you either have to predict it or bait it. You probably won't be able to bait it by jumping because it would be ******** for DDD to spotdodge instead of just shielding while you're in the air. So, you would have to predict that he's gonna spotdodge. In general jumping toward him is pretty risky. If he is too close to f-smash then I would probably either wait in my shield expecting him to spotdodge or jump/roll away.

Also, don't jab him if he's on the ground because he will just shield the second hit (like many characters).

 

[Sky Pirate]

You would wait in your shield close to a character created specifically to grab everything when he's on the ground?

I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, just trying to understand.

 

[Cook]

Yeah, sometimes. It depends on the situation, but a lot of players I play with have bad spotdodge habits and so I am kind of conditioned to wait out spotdodges. But, if I'm playing someone's DDD for the first time then yeah, I'd gtfo if he got close to me. The waiting in your shield thing is just something I would do if I already have some experience telling me this person is going to spotdodge.

 

[Sky Pirate]

I see. Thank you for your input!

Okay, I don't think there's a WHOLE lot to say about Dedede.
One thing we should probably cover is the subject of STAGES.

-STAGES-
"Best" starters for Oli:
"Worst" starters for Oli:
"Best" counterpicks for Oli:
"Worst" counterpicks for Oli:

- It does seem that BF is one of our better neutrals, but should we counter-pick it?
- Where should we strike against him?
- Should our ban be Frigate (as was mentioned in a previous discussion of the match-up)?

 

[Cook]

I would think you would want to ban RC...

 

[Sky Pirate]

What makes it harder than Frigate?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'd rather ban smashville.

X:

 

[Cook]

Well, the first part of Frigate sucks, but on Frigate you at least get a lot of purples, and purples are really good for keeping DDD away. Plus the second part of Frigate is good. Maybe it all comes down to personal preference, though.

 

[Jiom]

I ban lylat against DDD cuz I can't kill with yellows and he survives to 300% because DDDs like to jump one or two times before they bair so I u smash like it's mk and his campng dairs.

If DDD grabs you by the ledge and b/f throws you off go for the ledge, if you go for th stage he grab you again, just be careful for bair and know when to use uair so you dot get hit.

If you are on FD/SV he will probably try to u throw and pivot grab your landing and do it again, even on b he will pivot grab your landing though, be sure you know how to land in this match up, DDD can punish our landings so bad.

If you are camping and he still won't approach just throw reds/yellows and let him kill them so you can farm purples and whites. Purples really hurt him bad and whites do a lot of damage because he has a hard time hitting pikmin off, know what move he does to knock them off when you get them on his certain body parts so you can be ready to punish that.

IMO stages olimar does "bad" on he does as well so stages will probably be very player preferred, I just like to not get yellows so no lylat for me.

Oh and if you get him to up b just knock him away with your up b or fair, dair can be used as a kill move here to if you get him where it sends him horizontally.

 

[Dnyce]

There's things I want to say.... but idk if they're true or not. I'll get back later tonight if I get around to things.


Generic-worthless-advice:
Throw pikmin.
Pivot grab ground approaches.
Pummel waddles to unstale moves.
Watch for swallow-cide if you're a stock down or you're both last stock and you have a huge *** lead.
If DDD is facing you, dtilt him if you get into spot dodge battles. If he's facing away, pivot grab. Overall... try not to get into spot dodge battles with DDD.
**** Smashville.

 

[Greward]

imo olimar should never ban frigate. it's a great stage for us, first part can be difficult but we're rewarded with purples, yellows and a second part being awesome for us.

i would ban smashville against DDD (or maybe delfino, dunno) or some of those gay stages u got in some of ur tournaments lol

we gotta watch out for swallow, DDD cant really approach easily nor evade pikmin toss, it's one of our matchups were we really got tons of damage from pikmin toss so it's pretty much that. if he tries to approach from the air just watch out for bair and swallow and dont keep the shield because he'll fall with swallow and then we'll be in the air where he has the advantage.

 

[Dnyce]

If my math is right [and I like to think it is] and smashlab formulas are correct [and I like to think that they are] then we should be able to grab DDD's forward-tilt using broken grab.

Since I'm obligated not to state that as a fact until I know 100% forsure, I'll be back later with test results when I get the chance later tonight.

 

[Dabuz]

Quite simply, grab A LOT. Against DDD, grab is olimar's safest move no doubt, never ump when DDD is close, because he can make landing very hard, also, don't allow yourself to get near an edge because DDD keeps olimar there. If you see DDD jumping, you can run under and upsmash (unless you expect bair, which you can bait out in that case), you can upair, which is hard to avoid even with airdodge, or nair, which is even harder to avoid and sets up an upair. Otherwise just camp, hold middle ground on stages like FD, and on stages with platforms, stay under those platforms. Never use smashes at close range unless you are going for the kill, DDD punishes too well and you need to save your smashes because DDD is a ***** to kill otherwise. Fair is also a GREAT way to punish DDD for anything at close range, it sends him at an angle that allows great follow-ups.

I suggest going to BF when it comes to neutrals, then SV, FD, and then YI. I hate PS1 as olimar so i can't suggest going there. For CPs, halberd and lylat are VERY good, frigate, delphino, and castle siege are tied for second best CPs. IDK where to ban besides brinstar in this MU.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

This MU is so gay sometimes.

- Dedede has to approach and get past Pikmin spam and our approach is really limited. This is one of the main reasons you win. We can't just run in and grab. We can't even just run in and back air because that can get us grabbed. If we manage to get inside your range though Inhale *****.

- Dedede has to pretty much ignore percents since he'll take wayyy more than Olimar. Acting scared gets us *****. This is one of the few times we have to stay aggressive for the entire match. Most DDDs dont know how to do that correctly and lose because of this. Its about applying pressure and never letting up when you've broken past the wall.

- Dedede's F-Tilt used at optimal spacing makes a good move vs Oli. So does D-Tilt since the hitbox hits further than it looks and sends Oli at a bad trajectory.

- Our back-air sourspotted is really bad for you offstage. If we land it we can gimp you and its one of our few saving graces here.

- Tech-chasing you guys isn't too hard with your terrible tech roll but in most cases I go for the Back Throw since we need to make every hit count. Its better to go for a guaranteed 13-16% than risk getting half of that. When B-Throw is stale though I'll go for it.

-Waddle Spam is almost useless here..lol Machine guns >> rocket launchers. Same concept here. Plus I dont like giving people opportunities to refresh their moveset. Its easy when you can camp us so well.

- Our main goal should be to get you in the air/off the stage period. Fishing for kills is totally ill advised against Olimar.

- Ban Rainbow against us. Delfino despite it giving you purples and such is a good stage for us also. We can compete with you here. I don't know why'd we'd pick Frigate. Its a superficial CP. Yeah one ledge on the stage but we can get camped here kinda bad also/the fact that there is one ledge can force us to use our really punishable recovery we never want to use unless we have to.

- Be careful about badly placing smashes and tilts out there..our shield grab is legit and reaches stupid far.

 

[Jiom]

I read that if Kirby gets inhale on olimar, olimar is playing the match up wrong so I assume the same for DDD.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

It's not the same. It's easier for DDD to land an inhale than it is for Kirby, but Kirby gets a looooot more out of it from pulling it off.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Our range on Inhale is a lot better than Kirby's so its different. But like Hilt Kirby gains more..in most cases. Sometimes we don't have to kamikaze.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Okay, so why RC instead of SV?

The case for Smashville was that it's the smallest legal stage, so we have less room to work with.
Sounds like a pretty solid reason to ban/strike it.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Its definitely a good option. I just like RC because of how the DDD can maneuver around the stage a lot easier/it limits Olimars options. Also Ive seen Olimars die on this stage because of their UP B not working like a million times. Its a stage I am comfortable using but SV is also pretty good. I just hate dealing with camping from the platforms is all. But in hindsight I guess its a minor nuisance. I think Oli is underrated in RC but the edge we can get here from the moving stage and chances to gimp is undeniable.

Plus I love platform canceling here lol It makes us so much faster here.

 

[Dotcom]

I'm a little late but im with tech in regards of striking sv and banning rc.

The main problem with SV is a respective size issue. But with proper spacing this can be worked around. Imo nair is one of our best offensive options in this match because you can either follow it up, or it sort of resets the action peaving you with the oppourtunity to start camping again.

Dealing with the fact that D3 is most likely going to try and get in our "zone" agressively in this match up. SV isnt as bad in respect because we still have tools in our favor, able to keep him out and or push him back out when he gets in.

With RC the biggest thing is that our options are limited. In an overall sense his air mobility shuts down the oppourtunities we gain with our ground game, since most of the match we're running away in the air.

 

[RichBrown]

Do you guys wanna know the secret to this MU

Just roll underneath DDD when he's in the air

It's the WEIRDEST THING but it works. You HAVE to roll though, don't walk or run or try to be smart. Roll underneath DDD when he's in the air

Fsmash if you're outside swallow range, grab a lot, avoid getting grabbed yourself, etc

I remember when this MU was like +10, it's gotten harder now but it's still in our favor.