Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Coffee™]

Nobody talked about Captain Falcon's jab outside of ledgeguarding? It's a big part of Captain Falcon right now, and Greninja doesn't seem to fare all that well against jabs.

If Greninja isn't hit in the air from the jab he can Jab in between Falcon's 2nd and 3rd Jabs. He does alright vs it in comparison to most characters.

 

[bc1910]

Nobody talked about Captain Falcon's jab outside of ledgeguarding? It's a big part of Captain Falcon right now, and Greninja doesn't seem to fare all that well against jabs.

We talk about his jab all the time. I guess it's mostly in the Skype group... but anyway, his jab is important and is the main reason Greninja loses to Falcon up close. His jab is a very strong option that has to be respected.

 

[Gunla]

Results (I will update the charts later this week)

• (Omitted, but discussion tended to lean on slight advantage)
• (55:45)
  
• (?:?, see Mewtwo)
• (60:40, unchanged)
• (See below. 56% is a majority but I'm not going to place 40:60 on the board without a response from you folks)

This week:

• (?:?)
  
• (?:?, though I'll propose 50:50)
  
• (?:?)
• (65:35, wanted to approach this because of the ratio)

---
Proposing revisit for next week. Saw some mentions of Sheik and I'd be down with it.

 

[Ludiloco]

I was just wondering about the Bjr. matchup for some weird reason. I'll be interested to see analysis as I haven't played a good one in a while. The others should be do-able for me though.

 

[Snipnigth]

Thanks for your response, great to have some input from some actual Falco mains. You should tell your friend that we get weak Nair -> Usmash as well and it kills even earlier than weak Nair -> Fair xD

Realistically though weak Nair is really hard to land because it's pretty telegraphed and unsafe on block (it's not bad on whiff). It can work as a (very) hard punish against big commitments though. It's interesting to see someone speak so highly of it... weak Nair would be an excellent kill confirm if it was easier to land, perhaps that's something we can work on in the future.

It seemed like a really safe move at the moment (with practice i think is not that hard to land), and yes i think knows about the upsmash but on falco it lauches him to far up on high % for it to hit, its still a really good hit confirm kill combo i think, falco dosent have anything like that on frog, and he is so small and fast, its an anoying matchup for us falcos, well at least for me

 

[Codaption]

Speaking on Puff, I was actually the one to give that ratio. Somebody (FullMoon, I believe?) said it was more than 60:40, but less than 70:30, and I suggested it as an in-between.

I detailed a few reasons why Jigglypuff struggles in this MU, but Moon said it much more plain and simple: "It's basically the Kirby mu, but easier." The only thing she really has on him is that he can't really edgeguard her that well due to the nature of her recovery, which is admittedly very valuable against a character with as much offstage presence as Ninja Frogger. Over all, though....she just gets trashed.

Of course, it's worth looking into again because of how difficult it is to edgeguard puff (somehow I don't think that was brought up before??), but I don't expect much.

 

[FullMoon]

The difficulty to edgeguard goes both ways though, as Jiggs isn't able to pressure Greninja offstage as much as other characters since one of our recovery moves is teleporting and as far as I know, Puff also has quite a lot of offstage presence.

Her main problems in this MU is the fact that Greninja outranges her and can challenge her well in her air domain due to that and his very good airspeed. The fact that our main kill move is an anti-air that kills her at as low as 71% with no rage, meaning Jiggs is constantly in risk of being hit by it thanks to spending most of the time in the air. Being hit by Up-Air while in the air can also be really dangerous for her.

On the ground Greninja has a clear advantage with his Water Shuriken and much better ground mobility, alongside his amazing dash grab.

I don't have much experience with this MU, though, but on paper it does look like Greninja has a significant advantage over the puffball.

 

[Blanc]

bjr main sharing my experience in the greninja MU.

Starting greninja's combos vs bjr is hella hard because of bjr's inherit aggressive playstyle and the stage presence the bjr controls with the mechakoopas. although, once you start a combo, you can continue it for as long as you'd like because of bjr's weight and slow fall speed. in the game, you want to camp with shurikens to stuff kart approaches and throw out safe nairs to start your jank combos. bjr has an incredibly easy time comboing greninja because you dont have a lot of moves to cover yourselves when being approached upon (counter doesn't work vs a car.) you'll die at around 80 to a kart-> upb2 so you'll die early if you're not playing as safe as possible. I'd give this MU around a 55:45 for bjr (i dont think bjr wins a lot of MUs) simply because your laggy projectile is your only defense to an aggro bjr.

 

[FullMoon]

Camping with shurikens is not the optimal way of fighting Jr because his mechakoopas eat the shurikens and keep going unless we charge them a bit.

Jr. can't really deal with shield pressure as his grab is far too slow to allow him to shieldgrab us without risking being hit by a jab in the process, not only that but we can safely pressure his shield with both F-Air, N-Air and maybe even D-Tilt to an extent as the most he can try to do to get away is go for a N-Air of his own.

His kill power is legit though and is something to be wary of during the fight because it can get us killed very early if we're not cautious with his car approaches, though I'm not sure if it's a true combo or if it's DI dependant.

Greninja can combo Jr. into oblivion though thanks to his weight and his damage output means that if Jr gets hit he's in a lot of trouble. Jr also can't get too spammy with the koopas since they do leave him fairly open and Greninja has the mobility to get over to him quickly and punish him for it.

There's also the matter that offstage Greninja has a clear advantage with his fast aerials and Jr's predictable recovery even factoring in the kart. Hydro Pump can also be very dangerous if Jr goes above the ledge during Up-B as it can easily push him away from it into his death. Meanwhile Jr has almost no way of edgeguarding Greninja outside of trying to get us with Up-B when we're recovering low, though Greninja is absolutely not forced to recover low against him.

The best way to deal with Jr is to space him out and leave him pressured. F-Air is a great tool against him for that as it's safe on shield when space correctly and disjointed. There's not much Jr can do about it. Killing him can take a while though as he's very durable so we also need patience.

I myself don't think the MU can be anything more than 50:50 for Jr as Greninja mobility and juggling and combo ability are a very real threat to the koopalings and his amazing offstage presence also makes it dangerous for Jr to be offstage at any point during the match. Jr does have the benefit of being able to stop our shurikens to an extent and dying later while also being able to kill really quickly if we mess up too much.

The focus shouldn't be on the MU ratio anyway.

 

[Macchiato]

The difficulty to edgeguard goes both ways though, as Jiggs isn't able to pressure Greninja offstage as much as other characters since one of our recovery moves is teleporting and as far as I know, Puff also has quite a lot of offstage presence.

Her main problems in this MU is the fact that Greninja outranges her and can challenge her well in her air domain due to that and his very good airspeed. The fact that our main kill move is an anti-air that kills her at as low as 71% with no rage, meaning Jiggs is constantly in risk of being hit by it thanks to spending most of the time in the air. Being hit by Up-Air while in the air can also be really dangerous for her.

On the ground Greninja has a clear advantage with his Water Shuriken and much better ground mobility, alongside his amazing dash grab.

I don't have much experience with this MU, though, but on paper it does look like Greninja has a significant advantage over the puffball.

lets play later kay? I main her now

 

[bc1910]

For Jigglypuff, it's about the only MU where I find buffered Nair and Fair out of a short hop to be useful. They hit at nice range which she tends to float around in. Same goes for Kirby, actually.

The Jiggly MU used to be braindead easy when Up Smash was better, it's not exactly a free win now but Up Smash is still a really powerful tool against her as long as you don't spam it. It operates in her optimum range, kills her really early and actually if you jump cancel the Up Smash she can struggle to punish it because Greninja slides really far. You can still use it a lot, to be honest... just not to the degree that we could have got away with before.

It seemed like a really safe move at the moment (with practice i think is not that hard to land), and yes i think knows about the upsmash but on falco it lauches him to far up on high % for it to hit, its still a really good hit confirm kill combo i think, falco dosent have anything like that on frog, and he is so small and fast, its an anoying matchup for us falcos, well at least for me

The startup is just too slow for it to be easy to land. The move itself has 12 startup frames and the first 2 frames of the hitbox are the strong hit, so the weak hit doesn't come out until frame 15. Also you can't use it immediately out of a short hop because Greninja's short hop is so high, so if you count jumpsquat frames and the delay you need before inputting the Nair you actually have a really slow move.

It is good though, because as hard punishes go it's about as hard as punishes get aside from things like Rest. And yeah, Falco doesn't have anything like that on Greninja, or anyone for that matter as far as I know.

Weak Nair -> Up Smash will connect on Falco and kill him between about 80-100%. Nair doesn't launch him too high and Up Smash is powerful enough to kill. You can try this for yourself in training.

 

[Codaption]

The difficulty to edgeguard goes both ways though, as Jiggs isn't able to pressure Greninja offstage as much as other characters since one of our recovery moves is teleporting and as far as I know, Puff also has quite a lot of offstage presence.

Her main problems in this MU is the fact that Greninja outranges her and can challenge her well in her air domain due to that and his very good airspeed. The fact that our main kill move is an anti-air that kills her at as low as 71% with no rage, meaning Jiggs is constantly in risk of being hit by it thanks to spending most of the time in the air. Being hit by Up-Air while in the air can also be really dangerous for her.

On the ground Greninja has a clear advantage with his Water Shuriken and much better ground mobility, alongside his amazing dash grab.

I don't have much experience with this MU, though, but on paper it does look like Greninja has a significant advantage over the puffball.

Jigglypuff is in fact defined by two things, one being her incredible aerial/offstage game and the other being Rest. Honestly, Greninja is the only character I know that can surpass our edge game, and when you pit the two against each other ours is not very effective (Lol Poképuns). Cutting that out does in fact severely neuter us, although your light weight and high fall speed make our rest setups a little more effective. So, there's that, I guess....?

Greninja's superiority on the ground and break us from below is to be expected, though, as these are both common issues for Puff. While they're definitely worth noting and are sure to have a major effect on how the game plays, most puff players are going to be ready for this and be able to prevent them from being abused.

Overall, though, Toxicroak 2.0 eats us for breakfast in this MU. Guess we'd better nerf Greninja again.

(Have I ever mentioned that the best part of talking here is thinking of new nicknames for Greninja XD)

 

[FullMoon]

Jigglypuff is in fact defined by two things, one being her incredible aerial/offstage game and the other being Rest. Honestly, Greninja is the only character I know that can surpass our edge game, and when you pit the two against each other ours is not very effective (Lol Poképuns). Cutting that out does in fact severely neuter us, although your light weight and high fall speed make our rest setups a little more effective. So, there's that, I guess....?

Greninja's superiority on the ground and break us from below is to be expected, though, as these are both common issues for Puff. While they're definitely worth noting and are sure to have a major effect on how the game plays, most puff players are going to be ready for this and be able to prevent them from being abused.

Overall, though, Toxicroak 2.0 eats us for breakfast in this MU. Guess we'd better nerf Greninja again.

(Have I ever mentioned that the best part of talking here is thinking of new nicknames for Greninja XD)

Actually, Greninja is surprisingly not that light, his weight is the same as Ness and is just below Sonic and Pac-Man. He's actually more of a middleweight.

I'd say more but I'm currently busy so I can't right now.

 

[Codaption]

.....Huh. He fits the sort of mobile, combo-oriented archetype of Fox and Shiek, so I guess I kind of made an assumption there.

And here I thought Fairy was super effective against Dark.

 

[FullMoon]

.....Huh. He fits the sort of mobile, combo-oriented archetype of Fox and Shiek, so I guess I kind of made an assumption there.

And here I thought Fairy was super effective against Dark.

Maybe the typing would be relevant if Jigglypuff actually used a Fairy type move

It's not like Greninja is using any Dark type moves against her either =V

 

[bc1910]

Oh cool, Diddy week. I need to go to bed but here are my main points:

• I think we lost to Diddy prepatch, mostly because our physics + weight made us really susceptible to Hoo Hah and Uthrow Uair kills. With both of those options heavily nerfed, I think this MU has taken a swing towards being even.
• Diddy can still wall out a lot of the cast with SH Fair and Uair, but Greninja never struggled with this as much as others because not only does he have the mobility to get around it, he outranges Diddy's aerials with Fair.
• Diddy's nerfs have made him even more of a combo machine. It's still very unlikely that we can win this MU by outdamaging Diddy. What's changed is that we might live long enough to gimp him twice now.
• Speaking of gimping, this is one of the most important MUs to be comfortable in when it comes to edgeguarding. Diddy's recovery is pretty trashy, and with Uair and Fair nerfed his counterattacking options aren't as devastating when returning to the stage, so we can afford to be more aggressive. Simply smacking him with Bairs relentlessly will usually be enough to end his stock.
• Monkey Flip follows a predictable path and it's not too hard for us to hit Diddy when he recovers high because we jump so high, which is where several other characters struggle to edgeguard this character (his low recovery is free for anyone who knows what they're doing but his high recovery can be problematic).
• Don't let him abuse the banana for free! Greninja has more than enough mobility to get to the banana and has a fast dash attack which is useful for picking up the banana out of a run.

This is by no means a comprehensive list of Diddy stuff but I really need to sleep. I'll expand on this tomorrow.

 

[Snackss]

No Shulk discussion yet? He massively outranges Greninja and doesn't have trouble getting through projectiles, so this one seems important.
If anyone actually played Shulk, at least.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

No Shulk discussion yet? He massively outranges Greninja and doesn't have trouble getting through projectiles, so this one seems important.
If anyone actually played Shulk, at least.

Whenever you guys get to that, i'll probably contribute (as a Shulk main myself) when i've had more practice against Greninja's like Fullmoon. Though so far i think the MU is in greninja's favor like 55:45 honestly. Shulk can handle it, but it takes some patience and knowing how to deal with Greninja's speed.

 

[FullMoon]

Shulk sounds like a solidly even MU for me, I just played one in the ladder though for the most part it was the lag that really messed me up in the matches. Still I've had offline experience with Shulk and the MU seems even.

I'll probably give more detailed thoughts later.

 

[bc1910]

More on Diddy:

• His boxing game is better overall because his moves are faster and offer similar or better reward but actually, our 3f jab is faster than any of his useful moves up close (I believe his jab is also 3f but Diddy's jab is horrible, and it might be slower than 3f actually). So as a get-off-me move, our jab is perfect.
• Watch out you don't die to stupid crap like Dair, which Diddy players sometimes throw out near the ledge. There's no reason to die to it if you mix up your recovery properly and don't recover low every time.
• Banana toss -> stutterstep Fsmash is one of their favourite ways to kill you. Don't fall for it. Shield the banana and attack him when he runs in, jab is the best but if you manage to powershield the banana you can opt for something slower and more rewarding like Dtilt or even Fsmash.
• The best way to deal with Monkey Flip depends on what distance you're at. The fact that it's a command grab that can be changed into an attack at will means it can beat pretty much every defensive option. If Diddy does it close, you should try to jab the startup, but good Diddies probably won't do it close. At mid range, you should roll back because you'll end up outside the move's range and have enough time to punish it hard. Beware Diddy isn't too close when you do this, otherwise you'll just get grabbed/hit at the end of your roll. At longer range, simply just walk backwards out of the move's range. Greninja has one of the fastest walks in the game and you can easily move out of the attack's range then Fsmash behind you.

And here's some stuff on Shulk:

• I think Greninja has a slight advantage in this MU.
• Shulk outranges us massively but our jab is faster than anything in his arsenal. Once again it's a fantastic get-off-me move. Don't let Shulk play his spacing game, you should either be outside his range completely or inside his range utilising fast, safe options like jab and Dtilt. We have the mobility to not get outspaced in this MU.
• Shulk's combos are rarely if ever guaranteed but you need to make sure you tech properly when he Nairs or Fairs you into the ground, and otherwise just DI away on stage to make it harder for him to reach you with follow-ups. Offstage, don't let him wall of pain you with Fairs and Nairs which Shulk players love to do; just airdodge. The walls are not true combos, and Greninja's recovery is good enough for him to go really low and then recover. Shulk cannot edgeguard as deep as we can recover.
• Shulk's recovery is pretty free, just hit his Up B with Hydro Pump. He'll either get pushed too far away to make it back or get pushed above the stage, where you can chase his landing with a Smash because his helpless air speed is laughable. Make sure Shulk has already used his double jump before you try Hydro Pump or you'll just help him recover. You can take his jump forcibly by threatening him with Bair, but if he gets knocked far enough away he'll be forced to use his double jump to make it back so don't fret about it too much.
• If you are up against a Monado Art that you don't want to deal with, just run away. It really is that simple. Run away from Shulk until the art runs out. This is most important with the Smash art at high %. It's also been noted that Shulk's ability to deal with ledge camping is actually not very good because his best option to get people off the ledge (Dsmash) is really slow. So you can mix in a bit of ledge camping while you run as well.
• Monado Speed is the one you can't run from, and Shulk's best art in this and many other MUs. Not only does it make him move faster, it makes his attacks faster too. Shield is your best friend against this art because his throws still suck. Also Shulk is more prone to run into your attacks, don't be afraid to stand your ground and jab if Shulk keeps running around. If Shulk could have this art all the time he might win this MU (not to mention many others) because it is very good but luckily it's on a timer.
• Monado Jump is probably the second most threatening. It makes him harder to hit and gives him better aerial mobility. Once again, shield is your friend. His recovery is better, but only insofar as his double jump goes further; if you can take Shulk's double jump, Air Slash is still just begging to be Hydro Pumped.
• Buster is kind of annoying, if he combos you you're gonna take a ****load of damage and his attacks get safer on shield with this art as well because higher damage = higher shieldstun. His mobility isn't improved, though, and nor is his frame data. Our typical game of staying outside his range and punishing, jabbing inside his range and DIing his combos properly will let you contest this art. Don't be afraid to run away if you find him racking up too much damage, though.
• Smash is very threatening, but since it doesn't help his mobility and Greninja is so much faster, we really should just run away until it runs out. If he activates Smash any time other than when we're at high percent, don't bother running away, just attack him because our attacks hurt more while his attacks deal less damage and still won't kill. The most threatening thing about this art is that rage Smash Dthrow will kill eventually. So yeah. Don't be afraid to run. Luckily there's not much Shulk can do about it if we choose to run.
• Shield is a joke. He has awful mobility with it. Just pelt him with shurikens or start a juggle with Uthrow; when shield Shulk is in the air, he's a sitting duck because of his terrible mobility. A good Shulk will probably not use this art unless they're desperate to survive and we're also at high %.

 

[Codaption]

Quick note about Shulk, Buster isn't actually that good for comboing due to reduced hitstun. Most will opt for Speed when they want to land combos.

Most will opt for Speed in general, really.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

More on Diddy:

• His boxing game is better overall because his moves are faster and offer similar or better reward but actually, our 3f jab is faster than any of his useful moves up close (I believe his jab is also 3f but Diddy's jab is horrible, and it might be slower than 3f actually). So as a get-off-me move, our jab is perfect.
• Watch out you don't die to stupid crap like Dair, which Diddy players sometimes throw out near the ledge. There's no reason to die to it if you mix up your recovery properly and don't recover low every time.
• Banana toss -> stutterstep Fsmash is one of their favourite ways to kill you. Don't fall for it. Shield the banana and attack him when he runs in, jab is the best but if you manage to powershield the banana you can opt for something slower and more rewarding like Dtilt or even Fsmash.
• The best way to deal with Monkey Flip depends on what distance you're at. The fact that it's a command grab that can be changed into an attack at will means it can beat pretty much every defensive option. If Diddy does it close, you should try to jab the startup, but good Diddies probably won't do it close. At mid range, you should roll back because you'll end up outside the move's range and have enough time to punish it hard. Beware Diddy isn't too close when you do this, otherwise you'll just get grabbed/hit at the end of your roll. At longer range, simply just walk backwards out of the move's range. Greninja has one of the fastest walks in the game and you can easily move out of the attack's range then Fsmash behind you.

And here's some stuff on Shulk:

• I think Greninja has a slight advantage in this MU.
• Shulk outranges us massively but our jab is faster than anything in his arsenal. Once again it's a fantastic get-off-me move. Don't let Shulk play his spacing game, you should either be outside his range completely or inside his range utilising fast, safe options like jab and Dtilt. We have the mobility to not get outspaced in this MU.
• Shulk's combos are rarely if ever guaranteed but you need to make sure you tech properly when he Nairs or Fairs you into the ground, and otherwise just DI away on stage to make it harder for him to reach you with follow-ups. Offstage, don't let him wall of pain you with Fairs and Nairs which Shulk players love to do; just airdodge. The walls are not true combos, and Greninja's recovery is good enough for him to go really low and then recover. Shulk cannot edgeguard as deep as we can recover.
• Shulk's recovery is pretty free, just hit his Up B with Hydro Pump. He'll either get pushed too far away to make it back or get pushed above the stage, where you can chase his landing with a Smash because his helpless air speed is laughable. Make sure Shulk has already used his double jump before you try Hydro Pump or you'll just help him recover. You can take his jump forcibly by threatening him with Bair, but if he gets knocked far enough away he'll be forced to use his double jump to make it back so don't fret about it too much.
• If you are up against a Monado Art that you don't want to deal with, just run away. It really is that simple. Run away from Shulk until the art runs out. This is most important with the Smash art at high %. It's also been noted that Shulk's ability to deal with ledge camping is actually not very good because his best option to get people off the ledge (Dsmash) is really slow. So you can mix in a bit of ledge camping while you run as well.
• Monado Speed is the one you can't run from, and Shulk's best art in this and many other MUs. Not only does it make him move faster, it makes his attacks faster too. Shield is your best friend against this art because his throws still suck. Also Shulk is more prone to run into your attacks, don't be afraid to stand your ground and jab if Shulk keeps running around. If Shulk could have this art all the time he might win this MU (not to mention many others) because it is very good but luckily it's on a timer.
• Monado Jump is probably the second most threatening. It makes him harder to hit and gives him better aerial mobility. Once again, shield is your friend. His recovery is better, but only insofar as his double jump goes further; if you can take Shulk's double jump, Air Slash is still just begging to be Hydro Pumped.
• Buster is kind of annoying, if he combos you you're gonna take a ****load of damage and his attacks get safer on shield with this art as well because higher damage = higher shieldstun. His mobility isn't improved, though, and nor is his frame data. Our typical game of staying outside his range and punishing, jabbing inside his range and DIing his combos properly will let you contest this art. Don't be afraid to run away if you find him racking up too much damage, though.
• Smash is very threatening, but since it doesn't help his mobility and Greninja is so much faster, we really should just run away until it runs out. If he activates Smash any time other than when we're at high percent, don't bother running away, just attack him because our attacks hurt more while his attacks deal less damage and still won't kill. The most threatening thing about this art is that rage Smash Dthrow will kill eventually. So yeah. Don't be afraid to run. Luckily there's not much Shulk can do about it if we choose to run.
• Shield is a joke. He has awful mobility with it. Just pelt him with shurikens or start a juggle with Uthrow; when shield Shulk is in the air, he's a sitting duck because of his terrible mobility. A good Shulk will probably not use this art unless they're desperate to survive and we're also at high %.

Just saying this now, a Good Shulk will know that Air Slash is Hydro Pump bait, hence why they'll save Jump Monado and his Second Jump for recovery to help minimize this and avoid edge guard traps. Not to mention that with Jump Monado he can recover lower than normal too. Edge Guarding is something we try to keep in mind when facing Greninja often.

As for Edge Guarding on Shulk's end, with Jump he can contest Greninja and go really deep off stage, but it's risky given Greninja's Shadow Sneak to punish him going in. So if he tries going for this, I'd keep it in mind to use that.

A thing you should note about N-air is that if he uses it above you, you'll probably get hit since it outlasts an air dodge if spaced right. And agreed, Shulk has no combos, he's committed to what he does. As for Speed being a problem, if a Shulk really wants to abuse his Mobility arts, he can just immediately switch to Jump after Speed runs out and run away from Greninja until Speed returns and re-activate the Art lol. Greninja may be fast but Jump Shulk's hard to hit when he's running away, so Shulk can easily use Speed for most of the time he's fighting if he abuses this.

As for Smash, yeah I can't lie that Greninja has the option to run away and avoid it, but typically a good Shulk tries to use this when he's got his opponent cornered too (like for edge guarding), albeit in this MU he can't edge guard Greninja without Jump, and even then it's still risky. He can still read your get up attacks and such to keep the pressure on. Shield is basically a No No Art in this MU like the Sheik Match up since it makes us Combo food. And Buster, it really just depends on if you're willing to contest Shulk's attacks or not. He has that range to help with catching Greninja and stringing some Damage, and it's useful if he can land it. A thing to note is typically, most Shulk's use Buster when:
A) Immediately after Speed to rack up Damage
B) When they're really behind and need to catch up a stock

That said, while Buster has low hitstun, a good Shulk will really only use this past 40-50%, and be warned, it has immense Shield Pressure which makes his attacks safer if spaced right.

Some things I'd recommend to watch out for on Greninja's end. Watch out for Empty Hop, with Shulk's aerials, you kind of have to shield and respect them with the immense range, so Empty Hop is definitely a viable option for Shulk. If there's any aerial attack you have the best chance of punishing that a good Shulk will use onstage, it's B-air, if you're half a stage away from Shulk you can probably punish it with a dash grab (unless they know MALLC, but that's a different story).

The best thing for Greninja to do is keep the pressure on Shulk as much as possible or try to camp him out and stay out of his range when he's not in Jump or Speed. Shulk cannot deal with Pressure well at all, his Artes (like Jump and Speed) help to mitigate that somewhat, but it's still pretty bad honestly. I think this MU is 55:45 in 's favor.

 

[bc1910]

A thing you should note about N-air is that if he uses it above you, you'll probably get hit since it outlasts an air dodge if spaced right. And agreed, Shulk has no combos, he's committed to what he does. As for Speed being a problem, if a Shulk really wants to abuse his Mobility arts, he can just immediately switch to Jump after Speed runs out and run away from Greninja until Speed returns and re-activate the Art lol. Greninja may be fast but Jump Shulk's hard to hit when he's running away, so Shulk can easily use Speed for most of the time he's fighting if he abuses this.

Everything you said makes sense, great to have some Shulk player input. Something to note here though is that Shulk can't really run from Greninja for free with the Jump art. The crucial thing is that while Shulk has increased aerial mobility, Greninja's run speed is fast enough to keep up with him and his jumps are massive. I'm sure using Jump to run away works against most of the cast but Greninja is one of the best equipped characters to handle it because of his natural mobility stats. When he's in the air Shulk is at constant risk of being Uair spiked, or hit with Usmash as he tries to land. So while Jump is certainly annoying, Greninja is better at dealing with Jump runaway than most. Shulk can run, and will probably get away with taking very little damage, but he shouldn't be able to get away for free until Speed returns. He can't just retreat and have Speed available for the whole match.

The same logic applies to Greninja trying to run away from the Speed art; it doesn't really work because Shulk's mobility is too good. Which is why Greninja needs to contest Speed directly.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Everything you said makes sense, great to have some Shulk player input. Something to note here though is that Shulk can't really run from Greninja for free with the Jump art. The crucial thing is that while Shulk has increased aerial mobility, Greninja's run speed is fast enough to keep up with him and his jumps are massive. I'm sure using Jump to run away works against most of the cast but Greninja is one of the best equipped characters to handle it because of his natural mobility stats. When he's in the air Shulk is at constant risk of being Uair spiked, or hit with Usmash as he tries to land. So while Jump is certainly annoying, Greninja is better at dealing with Jump runaway than most. Shulk can run, and will probably get away with taking very little damage, but he shouldn't be able to get away for free until Speed returns. He can't just retreat and have Speed available for the whole match.

The same logic applies to Greninja trying to run away from the Speed art; it doesn't really work because Shulk's mobility is too good. Which is why Greninja needs to contest Speed directly.

That's true, he can punish Jump easier with his mobility. Then I guess the better option in that case would be Buster then. Since Greninja can keep up with Shulk out of speed, it'd probably be better for Shulk to have better shield pressure and damage output to punish Greninja for when he tries to get in and take advantage of Shulk not having speed to keep up with Greninja temporarily. Buster is more like a straight upgrade, since it only increases his damage taken by 10% or so, it's not all that much TBH, you take more damage in Jump honestly. So Shulk can still keep Greninja at bay with Buster somewhat while waiting for Speed to return.

Of course, Jump Shulk could try running over to the ledge and then jumping back onto stage and return to the ledge once again and keep repeating that for the invincibility, getting up different ways everytime if he really wants to use Jump to stall for time to regain Speed, after all it only takes 10 seconds to recharge. Albeit, that can feel like an eternity in a match.

 

[FullMoon]

Something nobody bothered mentioning but thanks to Shulk's bad frame data, Substitute is actually really good against him

It also makes Shulk's offstage game against Greninja even more risky because if F-Air hits the Sub then the situation reverses and Shulk is likely to get killed at very early percentages while Greninja can still make it back on-stage.

Unlike a lot of MUs Substitute is actually something Shulk needs to be wary of because his bad frame data means that there aren't many things he can trigger the counter with without being punished for it and Substitute is really strong.

 

[David Galanos]

I'd say I know bowser jr fairly well after hating playing against him for so long

One thing I can say is crucial, is to practice catching mecha koopas. Just get a friend or in training mode and learn the timing to dash attack the koopas when they are walking on the ground. If you ignore them and the Bowser jr uses it a lot you will not have fun at all.

Bowser jr is pretty much like sonic except with the differences of course. I say this cause you have to play safe cause of side b. It's literally the exact same thing. You can't throw out moves or let him get the side b's on you. That's why I don't like fighting this character, cause it's basically sonic except with a stage controlling projectile that you have to get rid of. I would just know bowser jr's combos out of side b and know what he can do. Like sonic, he can up b or do another ariel or jump away after hitting shield with side b. We can combo Bowser jr well but he still forces us to not use shuriken often and all that stuff with the sonic mu cause of his side b approaches.
I would say it's 55:45 like Sonic, because:
-He can kill us well and better than we can kill him
-has a projectile that we have to get rid of (imo)
-High priority side b approach that forces us to be more safe in our play (less spacing fair/bair and shuriken)
-Can do all the same types of mix ups out of side b like sonic (up b, shield, jump, etc). Which means no simple OoS punish
-Can live a bit longer cause of weight

All we can do is:
-Combo well cause of weight
-that' s it?


Shulk I used to play against a lot, actually versed Jerm a lot who is one of the best Shulks imo. I would say it's even but I'm not sure

I rarely play shulks anymore, I played tons with 3ds Greninja but not often at all on Wii U. I know that if they throw out nairs and stuff a lot you can kinda bait that stuff out and punish quickly. He does out range us with his sword, but we have a projectile and he doesn't, and his start up is noticeable too. He is one of those characters that up b gimping can be effective with too. Still overall I think it's even, I can't provide detailed info though, but it kinda revolves around baiting and punishing, and shuriken in the neutral. You can say that for any character but it's more prevalent here, if you ask me.


Diddy , I have a ton of experience with, but can't quite give detail on what goes in with the mu. I think it's even definitely, if someone said 55:45 us I wouldn't argue with either, but 50:50 is more accurate to me. I just think he can't get as many grabs if we don't let him, and he may have a more reliable combo game but we can kill him better now. Also up smash is great for punishing stupid side b's on stage. I don't really know what else exactly, it just FEELS even, I think others can agree. Before I thought he did well in the matchup anyway, but now that diddy can't kill as well it helps.


I don't know with jiggs lol but there should probably be an advantage. She dies super early and can't really do much about our gameplay, I guess

 

[hewhoamareismyself]

Not related to the current discussion: The entry on the matchup against Ness in the detailed table is unclear:

Ness has much stronger options for KOs, but has the edge offstage, making this about even.

I'm assuming Greninja has the edge offstage?

 

[Gunla]

Probably wrote that up while I wasn't that awake; my b, I'll fix it up.

 

[FullMoon]

I'd say I know bowser jr fairly well after hating playing against him for so long

One thing I can say is crucial, is to practice catching mecha koopas. Just get a friend or in training mode and learn the timing to dash attack the koopas when they are walking on the ground. If you ignore them and the Bowser jr uses it a lot you will not have fun at all.

Bowser jr is pretty much like sonic except with the differences of course. I say this cause you have to play safe cause of side b. It's literally the exact same thing. You can't throw out moves or let him get the side b's on you. That's why I don't like fighting this character, cause it's basically sonic except with a stage controlling projectile that you have to get rid of. I would just know bowser jr's combos out of side b and know what he can do. Like sonic, he can up b or do another ariel or jump away after hitting shield with side b. We can combo Bowser jr well but he still forces us to not use shuriken often and all that stuff with the sonic mu cause of his side b approaches.
I would say it's 55:45 like Sonic, because:
-He can kill us well and better than we can kill him
-has a projectile that we have to get rid of (imo)
-High priority side b approach that forces us to be more safe in our play (less spacing fair/bair and shuriken)
-Can do all the same types of mix ups out of side b like sonic (up b, shield, jump, etc). Which means no simple OoS punish
-Can live a bit longer cause of weight

All we can do is:
-Combo well cause of weight
-that' s it?

Honestly when I play against Junior I just ignore the mechakoopas and it works well for me, they get me a few times sure but I have a much easier time when I distract myself with them.

Also I'm pretty sure we can take him out of side-b even with just the shuriken after the super-armor wears off, it's much, much easier than dealing with Spin Dash.

He does have his Side B mix-ups that can catch us offguard (though I don't really remember Junior players ever shielding during the side-b, I'm not sure if that's possible) but you just have to sit in shield and he can't do anything to you.

In general he doesn't deal with shields all that well. His grab is pretty bad like ours and he doesn't have nearly as good of a dash grab to compensate either. As long as you play in a more passive-aggressive way, there really isn't much he can do to hurt you and thanks to his grab being awful we can pressure him on shield better than with most characters as well and N-Air becomes a pretty safe approach option as well.

We also beat Jr offstage since he's in a really bad position if forced to recover low and even his side-b is rather predictable while his offstage game is pretty meh overall.

 

[ephOE]

Jigglypuff struggles against Greninja for obvious reasons. One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet though is footstools. Jigglypuff has no recovery move, no walljump, and loses jump height with each successive jump. Her Uair is slow as well.

If Jigglypuff recovers low, footstool her. It's absolutely fatal. Even footstool > Dair if you're feeling gutsy. On the other hand, it's still very possible for Greninja to recover from being footstooled himself, especially since we can alter the trajectory of our recovery around Jigglypuff's aerials (think < > L shapes).

 

[David Galanos]

Honestly when I play against Junior I just ignore the mechakoopas and it works well for me, they get me a few times sure but I have a much easier time when I distract myself with them.

Also I'm pretty sure we can take him out of side-b even with just the shuriken after the super-armor wears off, it's much, much easier than dealing with Spin Dash.

He does have his Side B mix-ups that can catch us offguard (though I don't really remember Junior players ever shielding during the side-b, I'm not sure if that's possible) but you just have to sit in shield and he can't do anything to you.

In general he doesn't deal with shields all that well. His grab is pretty bad like ours and he doesn't have nearly as good of a dash grab to compensate either. As long as you play in a more passive-aggressive way, there really isn't much he can do to hurt you and thanks to his grab being awful we can pressure him on shield better than with most characters as well and N-Air becomes a pretty safe approach option as well.

We also beat Jr offstage since he's in a really bad position if forced to recover low and even his side-b is rather predictable while his offstage game is pretty meh overall.

Yeah you bring up a lot of better things. Most of the Jrs I've versed were a lot better than me, like ViceGrip on smash ladder. So a lot of my reasoning could be towards that

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's in a stupid limbo state where his standing grab is... probably the worst in the game, but his dashgrab is among the best. So you get punished for sitting in shield most of the time because you have limited punishes compared to most characters.

Now in fairness, I rarely miss the ability to sit in shield because Greninja's mobility and aforementioned excellent dashgrab allows him to whiff punish most things that others would be punishing on shield. And it just makes him harder to grab in general really. However, Greninja should be shielding as much as any normal character in one major case: against characters with good-yet-punishable "dash in" attacks. Attacks like Spin Dash, Jr's kart dash, Fox's Usmash and more. This basically goes against standard Greninja play which should be very shield-lite, and it's why some of these MUs can seem worse than they are; because they force us to play differently. Though I still think we lose to Sonic and Fox I don't think these MUs are anywhere near as bad as I once did because I understand how proper use of shield can make these characters less threatening (slightly less for Sonic, MUCH less for Fox).

My point being that Jr sort of falls into this category. If you play Greninja's typical game in this MU you're probably going to get hit with kart dash and mechakoopas a lot more than you need to. Take a step back, chill out, and consider that actually Greninja's OoS options are not at all bad in this case. When Jr hits your shield with kart dash and jumps, he is frame trapping himself into OoS Usmash. That's among the hardest punishes in the game for kart dash, and it's very easy to do consistently.

So I guess what I'm saying is that Jr is one of those characters that requires Greninja to step away from his usual gameplan and utilise the typical defensive options that other characters would utilise. He blocks shurikens with mechakoopas and can limit our mobility with kart dash, but we should be able to adapt effectively. I do think this MU is in Greninja's favour.

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah you bring up a lot of better things. Most of the Jrs I've versed were a lot better than me, like ViceGrip on smash ladder. So a lot of my reasoning could be towards that

Funny that you mention ViceGrip because he was one of the people who I fought in an invitational a long time ago and I won against him 2-1.

But yeah like @ bc1910 said Greninja needs to be played differently in order to work in this MU. I used to struggle a lot against Junior because of it but after I adjusted to it the MU feels a lot easier.

I'd say 50:50 or 55:45 would be a good ratio for it, though I'm leaning towards even more.

 

[Gunla]

Results:

• (Getting a Poll! I'm seeing a lot of 50:50/55:45 one way or another, so we'll have a strawpoll for him)
  
• (50:50)
  
• (50:50)
  
• (65:35, didn't really seem like it needed to change)
• (40:60, no complaints with it I guess)

This Week:

• (Poll)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (40:60, considered our worst matchup, if not one of the worst, in the game)

 

[David Galanos]

Oh boy, Sheik. I think most of us can agree it should stay at 60:40, right? I think maybe we could share some strategies and what not instead of saying why we lose.

My main thing with this matchup is that I refuse to die. I'm not going to let them get some air dodge read with up b or up air, I'm not gonna let them kill me off the side with f smash or bouncing fish. For myself, if I am living to like 150-170, I'm doing something right, haha. It's important to know her kill options, and if you are dying relatively early (for sheik at least) just look at what got you killed and prevent it. Her kill options are: (tell me if I forgot something)
- bouncing fish on or off stage
- f smash (mainly at the ledge),
- up smash: Sweetspot kills early. isn't used often, just be aware. It can be used to punish air dodges
- Up air: She can do F throw Up air, Don't DI back at high percents, she can do down throw and get an air dodge read or just a down throw -> up air if you don't react
- Back air stage spike: What I do to avoid this if I am low is do a ">" or "<" with the up b angle Onto the ledge, if that makes sense.
- Up b: They may use it on stage but it's main use is to down throw and read an air dodge with it
- I believe f throw/b throw -> bouncing fish is a potential kill option depending on DI, but most sheiks don't do it often or they miss so not much I can say
- There are some other ways to die like f tilt, fair, bair, down smash, at even higher percents but just be aware of how the sheik is trying to kill you


Some more things/tips:

-Air dodging against sheik 9/10 is a bad idea, don't let them scare you into air dodging, they are more than likely waiting for it.

- I try my hardest in this mu to get the lead first, and then put my patience to the test and try to keep the lead. It's tough losing 1st stock cause if they get a grab it can lead to a good amount of percent.

- A lot of the time I see myself living at high percents and finishing off sheik with an up throw kill. Up throw is a good way to kill sheik when they are at high percent and you have rage. I wouldn't only fish for that though, don't just wait for that every stock, if there's an opening do something else. If you can kill sheik earlier that's great, it will be rewarding. I've heard shifting shuriken is a good custom to have cause you have an extra kill option, I have no experience with this though.

- Needles beat shuriken, which sucks. Needles go straight through them. It basically kills the use of the projectile, you can't use fully charged either cause they can bouncing fish straight over it and hit you.

- Be aware of how they are approaching. Are they only grabbing, are they short hop fairing. You can try different things like punishing with a nair, something like that. I versed a sheik who's main approach was short hop fair and it was easy to just fade with a fair or roll or run back and nair them. If they are predictable in stuff like that, take advantage of it

- Again I think it's smart to know her kill options, and know which ways your opponent likes to kill. There's more I could say but I'll leave it at this I guess. The matchup can definitely be won, we have more kill setups/power, just is tough sometimes. Sheik can pressure Greninja pretty hard.


The sheiks I struggle against are the ones who play defensively, and shield and needle a lot, it's tough for me, idk if it is for anyone else.

Im curious what strategies you guys use going up against a sheik, I didn't exactly share any in particular, in terms of gameplay.




Lucina and Marth I would assume there should be some kind of advantage to Greninja, probably like 55:45, just a guess. I don't really have anything too detailed I can say but I have some experience against them so I can share my thoughts.
Most Marths and Lucinas I have played are smarter, defensive players and love to play footsies. They try to bait me into things, and rarely approach. If they do this I usually try to just see their patterns. For example one person got really predictable with fading back with a fair or 2 and then throwing out a neutral b assuming I'll try to quickly punish the lag, but it was easy to bait out his bait, haha. Stuff like that, I guess. I can't provide deep analysis but I mean they can't approach well and we have a projectile, lol. I try to just poke at them with shuriken and play a reacting and baiting game, most of the time at least. Sometimes they like to throw out f smashes out side b's so I would be careful for those too. Greninja can also hydro pump gimp them fairly well, but be careful of doing it too close to them and getting stage spiked by up b. That's all I got, just some thoughts, someone else can probably explain better.

I have never versed a mii swordsman a day in my life, have we talked about mii brawler though? He seems to be an up and coming character if not already. The smallest mii brawler is pretty crazy, haha.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For Marcina in Default metagame it favors Gekkouga slightly. In Custom Meta it probably favors Marcina slightly. In Default Greninja has a solid projectile to dictate the pace of the match and good reward on grab. Marcina is better at footsies but Shuriken makes playing footsies happen on Gekkougas terms if he plays smart. That said he commits heavily to alot of his options same as Marcina. Neither of them can approach either though, Marcina is a bit safer on block then Gekkouga is. Anything Gekkouga does on block is just up b punish bait.

In Customs grab reward is much closer thanks to forward throw to Crescent Slash being a consistent combo until around 60%, but also rage dependent. The angle, invincibility and range of CS makes it harder to gimp then regular Dolphin Slash as well. Iai Counter lets Marcina close in much more safely vs Shurikens as well. IMO I do not think Gekkougas customs effect his meta TOO much aside from Shifting Shuriken which gives alot more combo opportunities. However his midrange suffers a tad with this custom.

Last time I lost to a Gekkouga was Bajisci when the game first dropped. Back then he was undoubtedly top 3 and Marcina were easily bottom 5. Since then Gekkouga was nerfed and Marcina got some buffs. The match is virtually even now imo. The better player will win.

 

[Lawliet626]

Oh boy, Sheik. I think most of us can agree it should stay at 60:40, right? I think maybe we could share some strategies and what not instead of saying why we lose.

My main thing with this matchup is that I refuse to die. I'm not going to let them get some air dodge read with up b or up air, I'm not gonna let them kill me off the side with f smash or bouncing fish. For myself, if I am living to like 150-170, I'm doing something right, haha. It's important to know her kill options, and if you are dying relatively early (for sheik at least) just look at what got you killed and prevent it. Her kill options are: (tell me if I forgot something)
- bouncing fish on or off stage
- f smash (mainly at the ledge),
- up smash: Sweetspot kills early. isn't used often, just be aware. It can be used to punish air dodges
- Up air: She can do F throw Up air, Don't DI back at high percents, she can do down throw and get an air dodge read
- Back air stage spike: What I do to avoid this if I am low is do a ">" or "<" with the up b angle Onto the ledge, if that makes sense.
- Up b: They may use it on stage but it's main use is to down throw and read an air dodge with it
- I believe f throw/b throw -> bouncing fish is a potential kill option, I have low experience with that so I can't give advice on it
- There are some other ways to die like f tilt, fair, bair, down smash, at even higher percents but just be aware of how the sheik is trying to kill you


Some more things/tips:

-Air dodging against sheik 9/10 is a bad idea, don't let them scare you into air dodging, they are more than likely waiting for it.

- I try my hardest in this mu to get the lead first, and then put my patience to the test and try to keep the lead. It's tough losing 1st stock cause if they get a grab it can lead to a good amount of percent.

- A lot of the time I see myself living at high percents and finishing off sheik with an up throw kill. Up throw is a good way to kill sheik when they are at high percent and you have rage. I wouldn't only fish for that though, don't just wait for that every stock, if there's an opening do something else. If you can kill sheik earlier that's great, it will be rewarding. I've heard shifting shuriken is a good custom to have cause you have an extra kill option, I have no experience with this though.

- Needles beat shuriken, which sucks. Needles go straight through them. It basically kills the use of the projectile, you can't use fully charged either cause they can bouncing fish straight over it and hit you.

- Be aware of how they are approaching. Are they only grabbing, are they short hop fairing. You can try different things like punishing with a nair, something like that. I versed a sheik who's main approach was short hop fair and it was easy to just fade with a fair or roll or run back and nair them. If they are predictable in stuff like that, take advantage of it

- Again I think it's smart to know her kill options, and know which ways your opponent likes to kill. There's more I could say but I'll leave it at this I guess. The matchup can definitely be won, we have more kill setups/power, just is tough sometimes.


The sheiks I struggle against are the ones who play defensively, and shield and needle a lot, it's tough for me, idk if it is for anyone else.

Im curious what strategies you guys use going up against a sheik, I didn't exactly share any in particular.




Lucina and Marth I would assume there should be some kind of advantage to Greninja, probably like 55:45, just a guess. I don't really have anything too detailed I can say but I have some experience against them so I can share my thoughts.
Most Marths and Lucinas I have played are smarter, defensive players. They try to bait me into things, and rarely approach. If they do this I usually try to just see their patterns. For example one person got really predictable with fading back with a fair or 2 and then throwing out a neutral b assuming I'll try to quickly punish the lag, but it was easy to bait out his bait, haha. Stuff like that, I guess. I can't provide deep analysis but I mean they can't approach well and we have a projectile, lol. I try to just poke at them with shuriken and play a reacting and baiting game, most of the time at least. Sometimes they like to throw out f smashes out side b's so I would be careful for those too. Greninja can also hydro pump gimp them fairly well, but be careful of doing it too close to them and getting stage spiked by up b. That's all I got, just some thoughts, someone else can probably explain better.

I have never versed a mii swordsman a day in my life, have we talked about mii brawler though? He seems to be an up and coming character if not already. The smallest mii brawler is pretty crazy, haha.

Pretty much what you said in knowing her ways of killing
I mostly approach with SHFF back air which usually either trades with her approaches and/or beats them or SHFF Fair which does wonders for me at the neutral when spaced right
When i notice she keeps trying to approach with Fair, i just do OoS jab which usually punishes her when she hits the ground after her fair
For edge guarding, i just use shuriken to rack up as much damage as possible before she gets back to the stage.

 

[Coffee™]

Results:

• (40:60, no complaints with it I guess)

• 
  
• (40:60, considered our worst matchup, if not one of the worst, in the game)

For what it's worth...these 2 are not equal in terms in difficulty and I'm pretty sure most Greninja players would agree. I'd suggest moving down Fox to 45:55.

 

[FullMoon]

For Marcina in Default metagame it favors Gekkouga slightly. In Custom Meta it probably favors Marcina slightly. In Default Greninja has a solid projectile to dictate the pace of the match and good reward on grab. Marcina is better at footsies but Shuriken makes playing footsies happen on Gekkougas terms if he plays smart. That said he commits heavily to alot of his options same as Marcina. Neither of them can approach either though, Marcina is a bit safer on block then Gekkouga is. Anything Gekkouga does on block is just up b punish bait.

In Customs grab reward is much closer thanks to forward throw to Crescent Slash being a consistent combo until around 60%, but also rage dependent. The angle, invincibility and range of CS makes it harder to gimp then regular Dolphin Slash as well. Iai Counter lets Marcina close in much more safely vs Shurikens as well. IMO I do not think Gekkougas customs effect his meta TOO much aside from Shifting Shuriken which gives alot more combo opportunities. However his midrange suffers a tad with this custom.

Last time I lost to a Gekkouga was Bajisci when the game first dropped. Back then he was undoubtedly top 3 and Marcina were easily bottom 5. Since then Gekkouga was nerfed and Marcina got some buffs. The match is virtually even now imo. The better player will win.

I'm not very familiar with customs so bear with me, is CS invicible all the way or just at the beginning? I'm wondering because I was thinking Hydro Pump could potentially mess it up.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The beginning.