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Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

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DrSoussou

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Personally speaking I've never had a good time against Yoshi players. Any tips on how I could handle them better?

:186:
Camp them. All of their CQC tools are better than ours, so you have to force them to approach with SAFELY DISTANCED short-hop shurikens (mixed with charged) and then use your mobility to get around their attacks and counter. Mind games are important too. I let myself get hit with down-B at early % so I know when they'll use it, then bait it out and HPush them offstage when the time is right.

Sonic is another story. I can't beat the best Sonics with Greninja and usually opt for Lucario instead, but Greninja definitely has some tools in the MU. A lot of it comes to oos options and baiting spindash charges, but the key is to stay as mobile as possible and force them into CQC. Our jab beats theirs bc they only get 3 and we can wait it out and jab back for multi. Finally, don't be afraid to time out a Sonic. Trust me, they're more than willing to do it to you.
 

MrFrigid

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Camp them. All of their CQC tools are better than ours, so you have to force them to approach with SAFELY DISTANCED short-hop shurikens (mixed with charged) and then use your mobility to get around their attacks and counter. Mind games are important too. I let myself get hit with down-B at early % so I know when they'll use it, then bait it out and HPush them offstage when the time is right.

Sonic is another story. I can't beat the best Sonics with Greninja and usually opt for Lucario instead, but Greninja definitely has some tools in the MU. A lot of it comes to oos options and baiting spindash charges, but the key is to stay as mobile as possible and force them into CQC. Our jab beats theirs bc they only get 3 and we can wait it out and jab back for multi. Finally, don't be afraid to time out a Sonic. Trust me, they're more than willing to do it to you.

CQC?
 

sparkaura

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How are you guys dealing with Shiek? My buddy is really good at spacing his f-tils and f-airs on my shield so I cant grab him. He's also good at pressuring, Shieks speed overwhelms me sometimes...
 

DrSoussou

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Close-quarters-combat

How are you guys dealing with Shiek? My buddy is really good at spacing his f-tils and f-airs on my shield so I cant grab him. He's also good at pressuring, Shieks speed overwhelms me sometimes...
A good Sheik is tough to fight. Their camping game is better because needles are better than shuriken, and their CQC is better because they have faster moves that combo. However, we hit much harder. Any mistake they make attacking our shield needs to be one that we capitalize on with a smash attack or grab->upthrow combo. We can juggle decently well and our edgeguarding is still decent.

Basically, you have to go toe-to-toe with them and prevent them from overwhelming you with their speed by countering with your own. As long as you're getting a couple of strong hits in for every combo they get on you, the match should end in your favor due to their lack of kill options compared to yours.

Also, everyone and their mother plays Sheik now. Use that to learn the character and how to beat them
"know thy enemy"
 

Funkermonster

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Greninja's chances against :4sonic:? Even though I main both characters, I don't really have the experience to have an opinion on this matchup. As Sonic, just about every Greninja I faced so far wasn't that good, and as Greninja I have faced only a few good Sonic players. What do you guys think?
 

Smileyantor

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A great piece of tech you can employ against sheik is shadow sneak once you are starting to be juggled by:

Ftilt
Fair
Bouncing fish

All can be dodged with shadow sneak as this has no startup time and ALL of sheiks follow ups are VERY precise in terms of hitboxes.

Because of this sheik should have a lot of trouble racking up damage and sheik already has a hard time killing greninja. Because of this tech this is my favourite matchup in commonly played characters.
 
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KERO

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So, a couple weeks back, I wrote that big thing on Ness. However, that also happened to be the night before the patch came out. Said patch got rid of a few advantages Greninja had in the MU, notably the Usmash and Shuriken nerfs. Upon getting to play against a Ness after having gotten back into the competitive side of the game after completing it, I found Ness to be really difficult to deal with.

While our shuriken still does kind of outcamp him, the big problem is that he is easily able to weave his way in now that we cannot fire as many off. We could theoretically pull out a Usmash, but given his floatiness and airspeed, he is able to easily weave out of the Usmash (which he could do before buuuut) and back in to punish the new end lag. It's become really hard to keep Ness out, and because he doesn't have to commit to anything in the air, we really can't punish him for anything he does I feel. Not to mention, because he now has an easier time approaching, he has an easier time getting those nasty grab combos in, and it's only a matter of time until you're in Bthrow kill range. Admittedly, we do have methods to gimp him, but it's a huge mix-up that still has potential to end very badly for Greninja (you do not want to be hit by PKT2 if he pulls it out early and you don't expect it). Couple this with the aftermentioned inability to approach, and I really don't have a good idea of how to approach this match-up. He can come in, do some damage, and wait safely out of range afterward, daring you challenge his OoS Nair. Oh, and I can't neglect to mention killing him is extremely difficult, especially because his floatiness tends to allow him to escape from Uair right before the sixth hit (God, why Sakurai?). I'm honestly thinking of switching to Shifting Shuriken for this MU just to help with killing the damn kid. Anyone got any advice for this, because I really have no idea how to approach the MU at this point.
 

Shack

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Any advice against Pit besides this?
Jump over the arrows, and approach with a dair/nair. You dont want to spam shurikens in this matchup. Also, if you see the side b coming, dodge it and grab. His aerials are outmatched by yours.
This doesn't work too well for me because why would you approach anyone with a DAir when they can dodge it on reaction? Also his normals and aerials definitely out prioritize Greninjas because Pit just throws out hit boxes that stay out for a good 1 second or so :/ Whenever I go for a NAir, he can meet me in the air with a FAir or NAir him self. His FSmash out ranges Greninja's as well. USmashes can be hard to land since he has so many jumps. Any advice or is this just an uphill battle?
 

Sync.

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@ KERO KERO My roommate @Asa mains Ness and what I have to say about that MU is to be really aggressive. True, shurikens theoretically out camp ness but if you get in on Ness via empty hopping into jab he doesn't have to many real options in that situations. OoS nair can be annoying but baiting out that nair and punishing his eventually landing with tipped upsmash is a hard punish and a good kill method in the MU. If you miss your opportunity with hitting him with upsmash, then clip his landing with dash attack. Other than empty hopping, quick uncharged shurikens are good and stopping his jumps and dash grab attempts. Those quick uncharged shurikens are great at making him shield and thus opening up opportunities to dash grab -> juggle.

Also, we need to get good at ledge trumping and punishing ledge regrabs with charged down smash and attempts to land on stage with good pivot grabs or upsmashes.

@ Shack Shack Versus Pit you want to avoid jumping too much to approach and get in. Well spaced dash attacks, unpredictable forward rolls behind and dash grabs are good at getting in. Jumping just gets your naired (but don't forget to mix up your approaches not jumping at all is just absurd). Don't worry about the spacing game and just stay close to Pit. He can't handle pressure up close and doesn't have too great of OoS options other than grab which you need to watch out for (but definitely isn't the end of the world to get grabbed). Just stay grounded and when you have him in a juggle just count his jumps (or just know the animation changes for when he's running out of jumps) and know when it's time to upsmash/uair you'll get the timing I'm sure of it.
 

MartinAW4

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Another thing that helps against Pit is Shadow Sneak. Since many of his moves are multi-hit, you can use Shadow Sneak to escape them thanks to its hitstun cancelling properties. And if you time it right, you can even escape after taking the first hit of Pit`s Fsmash and punish him before the second hit comes out.
 

Sync.

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Another thing that helps against Pit is Shadow Sneak. Since many of his moves are multi-hit, you can use Shadow Sneak to escape them thanks to its hitstun cancelling properties. And if you time it right, you can even escape after taking the first hit of Pit`s Fsmash and punish him before the second hit comes out.
Does that still work after the patch? I wasn't sure if it was still a thing. If so, awesome!!
 

wizardto1

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Is it just me or is Greninja 's forward smash has an awkward hitbox? I can only seem to hit the opponent at the tip of the slash, not at his hands.
 

Shack

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Is it just me or is Greninja 's forward smash has an awkward hitbox? I can only seem to hit the opponent at the tip of the slash, not at his hands.
Yeah it's a sword move I believe. So it usually misses at point blank range just like other sword peeps. I would go into training and learn the spacing and try it with short characters too.
 

Dendros

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Substitute is a very underrated move. we just need to use it very differently that any other counter.
anticipating an Arial attack and then countering from below can net some suprise kills
 

KERO

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Yeah it's a sword move I believe. So it usually misses at point blank range just like other sword peeps. I would go into training and learn the spacing and try it with short characters too.
Yeah, on thinner characters like ZSS, Fsmash will go right past them if they're on top of you. However, it should be noted that Fsmash also has a surprisingly high hitbox on the end, one that goes above Greninja's head, much in the same vein as Fair.
 

Shack

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Substitute is a very underrated move. we just need to use it very differently that any other counter.
anticipating an Arial attack and then countering from below can net some suprise kills
Can't you block it on reaction? I know Sheik's FSmash and some other multi hit moves knock right through it. Do you hit FF state if you do an upwards one that finishes in the air? If not maybe there's some fun to be had using it on levels with platforms.
 

KERO

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Regarding sub, couple of things I've noticed. One, it might be faster than we initially thought. In a Greninja ditto, they managed to get off a sub from my Fsmash, and I was unable to shield in time. On the other hand, Greninja is 100% vulnerable from the moment he appears. Lastly, it seems his counter is active the moment the move comes out, but there is a ton of end lag where it isn't. All that said, I still vastly prefer explosion attacks as a roll/spotdodge/shield fake-out.
 

FullMoon

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I've been having some success with Substitute lately, have gotten some kills with it or at the very least I'm being able to hit with it consistently when I use it. I think I really underestimated this move, sure, it's still probably the worst counter, but I think it's still a solid move that depending on the match-up might be very useful. Actually I think it would only be bad on characters that have little end lag on their moves, like Sheik and I think Sonic.

It's pretty easy to get around multi-hit moves by simply aiming the counter anywhere that's not in front of the opponent I think unless it hits both sides at once, which I think you could still hit by aiming diagonally. I need to play around with it more.
 
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Kite0692

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Two things I want to say:

1 - I think it would be really great to have kind of like a database about the % some moves get the kills for certain characters (without rage), e.g. Im sure Fsmash kills :4yoshi: around 125% in Smashville (center of the stage), Usmash around 110%, I don't know about Fair, Dsmash, or Uthrow. Since it's hard to get the kill I think this would be a great idea (lets say you have this info in your phone, you can check it before the match to know when to use which attack).
2 - Am I the only one who finds the Capitain Falcon matchup really hard? IMO :4falcon: and :4yoshi: MU suck balls.

The thing that most bothers me about Greninja is that he has pretty bad options out of shield. Let's say (I'm not 100% sure) you can't punish yoshi's jab combo ON SHIELD. You can jump out of it, but that's it, can't grab it, you can't use any aerial (Nair would be the better option, but he can shield it and OoS nair it I think). Those kind of characters are really hard to play against. Any suggestions?
 

FullMoon

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Shadow Sneak might be a good option out of shield. Just use it behind you and you should be able to punish because of the good range of the move without risking being hit out of it.
 

Gunla

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Update Time! The name change isn't all that's new!

Starting this week, we're going to start finally discussing some specific MUs! However, the rules are going to be a bit different (and, experimental. Once a few weeks pass or we can get a general opinion, the efficiency of this system will be tested)... Each week, we will shift on each of these topics regarding (in this order):
Even Match-Ups
Soft Disadvantage
Soft Advantage
Hard Disadvantage
Hard Advantage

During these weeks, the topic at hand is the only one which may be discussed. Off-topic discussion or nonsense discussion (such as discussing MUs that have been clearly noted as an Even or a Hard Advantage on a week such as a Hard Disadvantage) will be treated as spam; however, posts that can defend why an MU that is generally considered X while your opinion is Y that have reasonable merit and/or evidence are definitely allowed and bring interesting topics to the table. This is being done to jumpstart the MU metagame of Greninja; we're working towards trying to find his place within the roster and this is the first step towards it.

So, to start this week.... Even Matchups are the topic until next Monday! Please discuss Matchups that you consider to be even, or matchups that may be borderline even. Greninja, for instance, due to not having issues like Snake in Brawl regarding port priority, is an Even MU and therefore discussion on Greninja dittos is an allowed topic.
 
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Spirst

 
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Ah, Liberation, didn't want to start the new format until you were here. Quite interested to see how this turns out.

For an even matchup, I feel like Mega Man is a good contender for it. Mega Man excels at midrange zoning whereas we can make use of his poor close-up game for strings once the opportunity is presented. A fully charged water shuriken will travel through each of his projectiles so if spaced well, can disrupt his rhythm. Shifting shuriken might be a good call in this matchup to negate the midrange zoning for the KOs that may be otherwise hard to land. Something to note here is that nair approaches can be dangerous at higher percents because if shielded, can either go into dthrow>fair or shield drop>utilt. His utilt KOs us around 82% whereas our usmash KOs him around 101%. His fsmash is also good at punishing landings. He struggles however when you're below him for uairs since his hard knuckle dair is slow and has a narrow hitbox. Mega Man is a character that's good at dictating the pace of a match but with Greninja's strong adaptability and mobility, I feel they can go on equal footing.

I feel like this was more in Greninja's favor albeit slightly back in 1.0.3 when it was easier to follow-up with usmashes and shurikens but now, the two are closer together. Also of note is that Mega Man's recovery isn't easy to gimp despite seeming like a straightforward vertical recovery. He can DJ after Rush or before it, walljump, and can attach a crash bomb on the stage wall to blow himself up and regain another recovery.
 
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KERO

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As far as Shifting Shuriken against Mega Man goes, I honestly cannot recommend it. Unlike regular Water Shuriken, only uncharged Shifting Shurikens stop the Metal Blades, and you probably aren't using Shifting Shuriken for those. Fully charged Shifting Shuriken does still go through them, but it does not stop them. You do not want Mega Man to have relatively unhampered access to Metal Blade. What will tend to happen is that he'll get hit by it, but Metal Blade will also hit you, and now he's closer to you with that horrifying Utilt. It's important to note that his Utilt's start-up to initial hit is 100% invincible if I recall correctly. I feel it's much safer for Greninja to try and keep Mega-Man at mid-range, as strange as that may sound. It's also important to note that Greninja can jump over his jab and punish with Fair (or at least get in jab range and out of Utilt range if he shields it). In the end, though, I feel Water Shuriken is overall a better choice in the match-up.
 

Spirst

 
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As far as Shifting Shuriken against Mega Man goes, I honestly cannot recommend it. Unlike regular Water Shuriken, only uncharged Shifting Shurikens stop the Metal Blades, and you probably aren't using Shifting Shuriken for those. Fully charged Shifting Shuriken does still go through them, but it does not stop them. You do not want Mega Man to have relatively unhampered access to Metal Blade. What will tend to happen is that he'll get hit by it, but Metal Blade will also hit you, and now he's closer to you with that horrifying Utilt. It's important to note that his Utilt's start-up to initial hit is 100% invincible if I recall correctly. I feel it's much safer for Greninja to try and keep Mega-Man at mid-range, as strange as that may sound. It's also important to note that Greninja can jump over his jab and punish with Fair (or at least get in jab range and out of Utilt range if he shields it). In the end, though, I feel Water Shuriken is overall a better choice in the match-up.
Yeah, I agree with this on second thought. The transcendent priority of the fully charged water shuriken isn't worth giving up. As for the utilt, I actually don't know if it's 100% invincible. I don't think it is, actually.

As for the jumping over the jab and doing fair, I do that all the time with DH but I haven't really seen whether Greninja can do the same thing though he should be able to. His landing lag for the fair is 18 frames which isn't horrible but not too great either. Nair, in comparison, is 12 but can easily be shield dropped>utiltd.

Edit: Just asked my Mega Man main friend. Invincibility frames 5-8.
 
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Coffee™

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How is this more practical than discussing characters 1 by 1? People are going to disagree on what characters they think fit into each of these categories and even if everyone could agree, we can't realistically discuss the intricacies of each matchup if we're talking about multiple characters all at once.

Idk...just seems kinda messy.
 

Spirst

 
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How is this more practical than discussing characters 1 by 1? People are going to disagree on what characters they think fit into each of these categories and even if everyone could agree, we can't realistically discuss the intricacies of each matchup if we're talking about multiple characters all at once.

Idk...just seems kinda messy.
Well firstly, one benefit this format has is that it's more time efficient. With the inclusion of Mewtwo, that's 52 characters discussed and each having a week leads to about a full year of just matchup discussion. We'd be finishing up a little before 2016 should we keep everything going perfectly and that's just not time-effective. As for matchup disagreement, that's fine as it fosters discussion which is ideal so long as it doesn't get out of hand. The intricacies of the matchup can be discussed within a smaller subunit of the week discussion and this way, people who have little experience vs the character of the week aren't shut down and unable to contribute until next week.

That being said, this is an experimental format being applied to some character boards and will be monitored for effectiveness. If you don't like it, that's fine, but just run with it for now and should it fail, we'll revert to the previous format or find a new one.
 

Coffee™

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Well firstly, one benefit this format has is that it's more time efficient. With the inclusion of Mewtwo, that's 52 characters discussed and each having a week leads to about a full year of just matchup discussion. We'd be finishing up a little before 2016 should we keep everything going perfectly and that's just not time-effective. As for matchup disagreement, that's fine as it fosters discussion which is ideal so long as it doesn't get out of hand. The intricacies of the matchup can be discussed within a smaller subunit of the week discussion and this way, people who have little experience vs the character of the week aren't shut down and unable to contribute until next week.
I get that it's time efficient to some degree but it does create an additional off topic need to discuss which characters fit into each category before we've even actually analyzed matchups with them which is also something most people tend to not agree on anyway, especially so early on in the game.

That being said, this is an experimental format being applied to some character boards and will be monitored for effectiveness. If you don't like it, that's fine, but just run with it for now and should it fail, we'll revert to the previous format or find a new one.
I'm fine with it, just curious as to the reasoning behind it as it seems like it could have some issues.

Which of his matchups do you think are in the even(ish) range?
 

Mocha

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I get that it's time efficient to some degree but it does create an additional off topic need to discuss which characters fit into each category before we've even actually analyzed matchups with them which is also something most people tend to not agree on anyway, especially so early on in the game.



I'm fine with it, just curious as to the reasoning behind it as it seems like it could have some issues.

Which of his matchups do you think are in the even(ish) range?
Can I just interrupt to say that I really like your username and title?

Carry on, Greninjas.

I'll likely be mostly lurking behind the MU discussion for awhile. Greninja is a character that I love as a character, but I'm having a tricky time making use of his moves... and hitting with them. He is a character that I find, takes a bit more skill to use than he appears. Whenever I hear someone complain about Greninja or say he's 'easy to use', I want to just facepalm, because that seems like complete BS.
 
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DrSoussou

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Coffee is right, I'm gonna be like "X is a great example of an even matchup here's why" and then someone else is gonna say "no way that's 60:40 at best, you're dumb" and then the matchup will never be analyzed in full
 

Spirst

 
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@ Coffee™ Coffee™ @ DrSoussou DrSoussou @Entire Greninja boards, those are valid arguments. What would you suggest? Perhaps something like the previous format of one character per week can be done but with a smaller time range. Rather than one week, how about something like three days?
 

KERO

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Given that the metagame is as young as it is, I think it would be best to briefly cover a character for two days, i.e. have Greninja mains with experience in that match-up comment on it and establish a rough idea of the MU ratio for each character. Then, once those 102 days pass (assuming we are covering Miis as well), I feel we should start with what we believe are our worst MUs and make a schedule where we take a week to cover each character (what MUs we start with don't really matter honestly; I'm more invested in the first part of this), where we would reach out to their character board for a mutual discussion. This would allow us to pin our initial match-up impressions down early on in the metagame (help people figure out what characters they may want secondaries for early on), put them in a place that all Greninja mains have easy access (this is especially important for those looking to pick up the character) to, and when the metagame has been given more time to mature, have a second go around with a more in-depth and accurate discussion.
 
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Coffee™

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Can I just interrupt to say that I really like your username and title?

Carry on, Greninjas.
Lol, thanks. I see we have similar tastes xD.

@ Coffee™ Coffee™ @ DrSoussou DrSoussou @Entire Greninja boards, those are valid arguments. What would you suggest? Perhaps something like the previous format of one character per week can be done but with a smaller time range. Rather than one week, how about something like three days?
I think the smaller time frame might be a bit limiting as might not have enough time to discuss everything we want in detail before moving on to another character. I don't see why we couldn't just discuss multiple characters within a set time frame though.

If we take all 52 characters and start to address them at 4 a week we're only looking at 13 weeks to complete the entire list with the ability to review each matchup 4 times a year which isn't too bad at all. 4 characters at a time is also a nice number as we can group 2 characters with similar traits together for quicker discussion. (i.e Charizard / Bowser or Duck Hunt / Villager).

Then akin to what you were saying earlier we could make some kind of subunit to continue talking about previously discussed characters.
 
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BlinkIV

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Seems I'll be joining the group discussion. I recently picked up Greninja and main him now. I've been playing with a few pretty good players from the scene (Denti (Shiek/Diddy), Aerolink (Palutena), Bwett (Captain Falcon, iiggy (Rosalina & Luma), Dakpo (Zero Suit Samus)) so I can contribute to these MU's atm.

I'll be looking forward to learning the MU's and hopefully i'll be able to contribute as well.
 

Gunla

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@ Coffee™ Coffee™
I'd like to thank you for your idea, because we're actually going to use it!

Of course, we're working on how setup character rotations at the moment, but for the time being, we'll start week one off with the following characters:
:4greninja::4mario::4luigi::4drmario:

For this week, you may discuss matchups on these characters! In addition, please suggest additional rotations for us to utilize!
 
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wizardto1

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I feel like Greninja is at a disadvantage with Mario. I faced a very good Mario on FG earlier and he completely shut down my approach with his aerials, grabs, and fireballs. Not to mention the cape shut down my shruikens. Still Greninja can still easily combo him and hard to kill him either especially with an extremely gimpable recovery.
 

KERO

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I feel Mario may have a very slight advantage against Greninja. We have to play rather differently against Mario than some other characters, with lots of Fairs, Utilts, and Fsmashes. For as much as Mario has in the way of combos and kill power, he doesn't have very good range. It should also be noted that his Dthrow to Utilt (or even jab) doesn't seem to work as well against Greninja due to our low landing box (it can still work starting at around 20%, but that gives him at most about a 20-30% combo which is pretty good compared to most characters). Now, considering the cape, we do have to play intelligently with Shurikens. This is one MU I don't think we should ever use a fully charged Water Shuriken in except in the most situational positions (i.e. when he's recovering and lacks a double jump and cape boost). However, the smaller charged shurikens are generally good to disrupt him.

If he approaches with Fireballs, I feel it's best if we either A. shield and pursue him to punish their ending lag or B. jump over the Fire Ball and Bair. The Fireballs come at that dreaded 45 degree angle, so it is kind of a pain to get around them, though. We also need to be very cautious of his Dair. It starts killing at around 170% iIrc, and it's very easy to get hit by it due to our lack of disjoints. I'd advise trying to get out of its maximum range (maximum range being how much range Mario can cover with it if he keeps going toward Greninja in the air with it) and trying to ward him off with Fsmash (or if you can, baiting him into going all the way with it and punishing him with said Fsmash).

Now, as with many of Greninja's MUs, it's pretty tough getting a kill on Mario. At the same time, Mario himself has very few reliable kill moves, and thankfully for us, ours tend to outrange his. I feel our best kill moves in the MU are Fair and Fsmash, with special mention to Bair if you can read his recovery (which isn't too hard given we're talking about Mario). Just be wary of his Fsmash, Dsmash (which now hits harder on the back hit I believe), his grab at very high percents, and his Usmash, especially when landing. Thankfully, due to Greninja having a tendency to duck when you land, I believe you can safely airdodge any Usmash attempts.

Now, for the hard part. Alright, Mario got a kill on your or has a huge advantage against you, and he refuses to approach. This is where the MU becomes fairly irritating. You need to weave through the fireballs and find some way to punish him with, well, anything. Don't just SH Nair, though. He will shield it and then proceed to grab or OoS Nair. Fair is also quite a bit of a commitment for trying to approach, though, and Bair lacks a disjoint. I feel that our best approach is honestly jab to catch him coming back down from the air. Just empty short hops into jabs and Dtilts for poking. Again, though, approaching Mario as Greninja is fairly difficult, so try to stay ahead in the match as much as possible to force the opposite situation.

Now, let's get into customs. Fast Fireball only accentuates the problems that Greninja has against Mario. Although the Fireballs each do only about 1%, Mario doesn't need to jump at all to cover an insane amount of distance. Gust Cape also neuters our approaching game somewhat. Thus, what was once at least slightly manageable becomes as annoying and ordeal as trying to get in against Toon Link. We can't crawl under the Fireballs, either. Basically, your best bet, in my opinion, is to approach via the air and trying to limit Mario's space. Like with Mega Man's jab, we are able to jump over Fast Fireballs and Fair for the punish. If Mario tries to escape, just chase him down. Otherwise, be very aware of his options and try countering accordingly.

Thankfully, if we do get the first KO, Mario is forced to approach, and while the Fast Fireballs do help him in that regard as well, like with Vanilla Mario, we can carefully space out Fairs and Fsmashes to tack on percent before he KOs us. Remember to not panic if he hits you with a Fast Fireball in the air where he's in a position to fall and immediately Fsmash or Dsmash. Just fast fall and shield to avoid the Smash (as long as you're close enough to the ground, otherwise, DJ or Hydro Pump away). Also be even more so aware of approaching with Nair if he has Explosion Punch. It gives him yet another OoS option against even spaced Nairs. Finally, High Pressure F.L.U.D.D. is a blast to the past as it can gimp us much the same way we used to gimp others. If he has this, make sure to always recovery low. Greninja has the air mobility to generally get us right under the ledge before we have to Hydro Pump, but make sure to mix it up with diagonal Hydro Pumps toward the ledge as well as Mario is able to Bair us and stage spike us if he catches on to that recovery.

Overall, while Mario does have trouble killing us, he does have quite a few tools to mess up Greninja. It's not an unwinnable MU by any stretch. We do, for the most part, outspace him, but his projectile game is pretty good at tacking on a lot of percent by itself, and his ability to force us out in CQC along with the ability to somewhat mitigate our Shuriken game definitely hampers our ability to put pressure on him.

While I have played a couple of Luigis, I don't really have too solid a grip on the MU. I would say that it is slightly in Greninja's favor, though. Without the cape and the Fire Balls going horizontally at a much slower rate than Fast Fireball, he kind of loses the advantages Mario had in the MU in exchange for slightly safer kill options. Like with Mario, we can potentially gimp him as well (or tack on a lot of percent trying).

Dr. Mario is a complete mystery to me, but I'd imagine he'd be easier than both Luigi and Mario due to his horrid recovery.
 
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FullMoon

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Mario and Doc are very easily gimped so we can easily get a kill so long as we get them out of the stage, which is a pretty huge thing. Getting them off the stage though, is tougher. The Marios makes fully charged shurikens dangerous to use and their projectiles are very annoying to get around.

I'd say for Mario it's 55-45 at his favor and Doc is probably at Greninja's favor since he being slower means it's easier to get hits on him.

As for Luigi... I wonder, could we use Substitute to edgeguard him by throwing ourselves at the side-b with it? I think it might work and an upwards sub could pretty easily kill if Luigi is at high %s, which he likely is if you're attempting it. It's something I would need to test.

I can't really say much about these match-ups due to lack of experience with them.
 

MartinAW4

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Greninja can SS hitstun cancel out of Mario`s Utilt combos, so those aren`t a problem. I`ve only faced Mario in For Glory mode, but from the limited experience I have against him, it seemed to me that the matchup was in Greninja`s favor. Mario`s main weaknesses are his low range, which allows us to approach with our aerials easier, and a very bad recovery. If we land one Bair off stage he won`t come back even at low %.
He does have an annoying projectile, invincibility on his Up B which makes it impossible to gimp him with Hydro Pump and his Cape which shuts down our charged shurikens (uncharged ones are still good though) and can even gimp us if he catches our Up B with it, but overall Mario is one of the easier characters for me to face in For Glory.
However I haven`t faced a really good Mario yet, so I can`t really say how the matchup is.
 
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