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Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

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bc1910

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Dsmash is definitely a great move for someone hanging on the ledge but it's not like we don't have options. Ledge attack if we see you charging it, if you try to do it on reaction ledge getup -> shield is fast and has only one frame of vulnerability. Greninja is not the only character who may struggle against Ness' Dsmash on the ledge and I haven't seen it used well enough to turn the MU. Also his aerial frame data may be poor but Fair's huge range makes it a good ledge drop option in some cases.

Ness' short hop game/tomahawk game may be threatening but Greninja should never, ever be sitting in shield against Ness. He should be moving. It's not something that Ness should be able to use to get consistent kills against Greninja. Also Greninja's Fsmash, whilst not safe, will outrange Ness' options out of a short hop.

It would still make sense for Greninja to be between 0 and -1 if Sheik and Rosalina are -1. Greninja should do at least as well as Sheik offstage.

I didn't say Ness was poor? He's a better character than Greninja (in the current meta). But I believe Greninja beats him slightly. I find it weird that you don't see how that might be possible.

Idk if this counts as high level but there are multiple videos on VGBootCamp of Techei beating Ness players at MD/VA regionals. Techei is in the top 20 players from that region and it's a strong region AFAIK, with players like Boss and Seagull. Not sure where his opponents are in the power rankings but I imagine quite high, maybe top 20 as well, since otherwise they wouldn't be on VGBC. Are there videos of high level Ness players beating high level Greninjas?
 
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Noa.

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I would say that the only good Ness player in MD/VA is Mik!

And ledge getup has four frames of vulnerability.

Greninja does not do as well as sheik offstage. They have similar mobility but Greninja can't threaten ness with a burst mobility attack like bouncing fish. And being able to anticipate Greninja's fair is much easier than sheik's fair. The difference is like night and day. There's no way that Greninja is as threatening offstage as sheik. And Rosalina is not potent at edgeguarding but is amazing at ledgeguarding. She can cover so many different options with her gigantic hit boxes that last forever.

Like I just don't understand in what way Greninja has a meaningful advantage over Ness.
 

bc1910

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Pretty sure it's one frame.

Greninja does not Fair off stage, Bair is a lot better. It's the same speed as Sheik's Fair and not as telegraphed as it may seem since despite having his back to you, Greninja can still use Hydro Pump or Shadow Sneak to hit you. Also you simply can't be sure when he's gonna use it, he can use Bair like Sheik uses her Fair only his ability to follow up after a successful hit is worse because of the extra ending lag (but it has more knockback and a better knockback angle to compensate). Sheik also puts herself at more risk trying to hit Ness out of PKT2 because her aerials are not disjointed.

Greninja is one of the best edgeguarders in the game, about as good as or slightly worse than Sheik overall, in this particular MU I think he is about as good.

Like, if you don't agree that's fine, and I would hardly call 55:45 a meaningful advantage, slight is the word I would use, but I believe it's there. This discussion isn't going anywhere now so I'd like some others to weigh in.
 
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Luco

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The reason I brought it back up was because you said these two statements right next to each other.

  • Edgegaurding Ness is not hard. It's not reliable enough to call this MU a 7:3 or anything, but Ness needs to be extremely cautious of Greninja's edgeguarding capabilities.
  • Basically every time Ness is forced to use PKT2, his stock should be gone because of Hydro Pump. It is vital that Greninja players learn to gimp PKT2 consistently because it CAN be done and provides us with free kills. Get directly above Ness but still slightly between him and the stage, then Hydro Pump upwards.
The conflict here being that "Ness needs to be extremely cautious" and "His stock should be gone every time he needs to PKT2" are semi-contradictory.

I know you're going to go ahead and argue that in the first statement you also meant double jump, but you also seem to imply that it's a 50/50 situation where if we do a rising aerial, you use shuriken and if we AD then you come offstage and Bair us which would then imply a direct killing situation. If that were true, this MU would be so god-awful (There's no evidence to suggest that every time Ness is put offstage that he goes into a 50/50 situation at all currently). Also, I feel like if the word 'should' was the pinnacle of your argument then you should have made it clear that the point was less relevant because it's not happening in the current meta as much.

Regardless, I agree with Noa that Uair is obnoxious and Ness using SH Uair is very common along with Bair.

I'm a little sad that you thought we'd under-estimate Greninja because he was nerfed. That's a real cop-out, honestly. We don't think Greninja doesn't win this MU because he was nerfed; we think he doesn't win because we believe our tools do well or go even with him! :laugh: I didn't come here to turn discussion into that. >_>

Don't know if I can find any high level Ness mains vs high level greninjas, but would be interested to hear if @Shaky @ NAKAT NAKAT or another top Ness main has played Greninja and what they think of the MU. Similarly, I would also love to invite @NinjaLink or any other top Greninja main to give their input too.
 
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FullMoon

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Let me even the odds here.

First, Ness's kill power is crazy good and much better than ours especially the forehead of pain. Greninja's mobility and slippery nature though can make it hard for Ness to land the hits. Ness hits hard but Greninja excels at avoiding being hit.

Second, no, edgeguarding Ness is not easy. His double jump is massive and his airdodge is one of the best, he can very easily make it back to the stage. If he does end up needing to use PK Thunder II though he might as well consider himself dead. There's no way around it, Ness is forced to stay still while he controls it and Greninja can just spray him with some water. Getting him in that position though is not easy. The best way Greninja can do it is baiting an airdodge from Ness and smacking him back without him having his double jump back.

Third, Ness might be able to get Greninja on the ledge with D-Smash, but Greninja can very easily just go over Ness with Hydro Pump if he sees that coming. It's not easy to intercept Greninja during it especially if he does it from very high and he goes so far Ness can't catch up with him by running to punish him. Greninja can also use Hydro Pump away from the stage first to push Ness away from the ledge before aiming back to the ledge and make his way back up.

Fourth, B-Air is frame 5, the frame data on our aerials is not that bad. I'm seeing a lot of misconception from you, @ Noa. Noa. when it comes to that. Greninja's F-Air and D-Air are laggy, yes, but both B-Air and Up-Air have good frame data (frame 5 and 7). Greninja has bad frame data but let's not exaggerate things.

By the way I thought that this season we were going to analyse how we're supposed to deal with the character instead of just arguing back and forth over who wins?

We can clearly see that arguing over who we think wins is not going to help us in any way since it pretty much boils down to an opinion vs another.

So, @ Luco Luco , Noa, instead of arguing over all of this I instead wants to ask you: What advice can you offer us in regards to how we should deal with Ness?
 

Luco

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Let me even the odds here.

First, Ness's kill power is crazy good and much better than ours especially the forehead of pain. Greninja's mobility and slippery nature though can make it hard for Ness to land the hits. Ness hits hard but Greninja excels at avoiding being hit.

Second, no, edgeguarding Ness is not easy. His double jump is massive and his airdodge is one of the best, he can very easily make it back to the stage. If he does end up needing to use PK Thunder II though he might as well consider himself dead. There's no way around it, Ness is forced to stay still while he controls it and Greninja can just spray him with some water. Getting him in that position though is not easy. The best way Greninja can do it is baiting an airdodge from Ness and smacking him back without him having his double jump back.

Third, Ness might be able to get Greninja on the ledge with D-Smash, but Greninja can very easily just go over Ness with Hydro Pump if he sees that coming. It's not easy to intercept Greninja during it especially if he does it from very high and he goes so far Ness can't catch up with him by running to punish him. Greninja can also use Hydro Pump away from the stage first to push Ness away from the ledge before aiming back to the ledge and make his way back up.

Fourth, B-Air is frame 5, the frame data on our aerials is not that bad. I'm seeing a lot of misconception from you, @ Noa. Noa. when it comes to that. Greninja's F-Air and D-Air are laggy, yes, but both B-Air and Up-Air have good frame data (frame 5 and 7). Greninja has bad frame data but let's not exaggerate things.

By the way I thought that this season we were going to analyse how we're supposed to deal with the character instead of just arguing back and forth over who wins?

We can clearly see that arguing over who we think wins is not going to help us in any way since it pretty much boils down to an opinion vs another.

So, @ Luco Luco , Noa, instead of arguing over all of this I instead wants to ask you: What advice can you offer us in regards to how we should deal with Ness?
Haha, sorry. :) Perhaps I've been too judgemental of things this whole time.

So the way I see it, Froggy's best bet in this MU is to abuse his mobility and superior ground game. Anything Ness does in neutral can be punished by Froggy I'm pretty sure, so if we're leaping around using SH aerials, shield it (I know that sounds counter-intuitive for you, but if you're within range then it's the obvious choice) and punish with a grab or DA or something similar to get us in the air. Otherwise a good read from you will put us in the air anyway, and once we're there we find being juggled as not so fun. That said, be wary of a Ness that ADs through a Uair because they'll probably cancel the AD with a Uair or Nair (one of our best options against characters that try to juggle us in the air). A Ness being consistently juggled will most likely go to the ledge to reset, so from there you want to try and punish Ness as he gets up. If he goes back to neutral, repeat the process until you can get Ness off-stage where, totally, go for the HP gimp if you can (but be wary of Ness mains that know when to DJ and where to position themselves for PKT2).

Ness isn't in a position to force Froggy's approach either. uncharged shurikens aren't things we're going to be batting back very often, and PKT and PKF are far too risky to just throw out in neutral except on rare occasions. If a Ness does throw out PK Fire and you weren't expecting it, I believe you have a ton of options at your disposal to avoid any real followups, although you might see a Ness use PKT so be careful of that I suppose. Otherwise, avoid the grab - at low percents, Ness is going to use it to get a ton of percent; at mid percents, he's going to try and get you offstage because Ness can somewhat decently ledge-guard Greninja if he makes a mistake, and at high percents, well you don't need me to finish that sentence.

Speaking of which, here are Greninja's kill percents when it comes to Back throw. Learn em. http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ As you will notice, Froggy has a faster fall speed than Ness, meaning he tends to die just slightly earlier than Ness from Bthrow even though they're the same weight. The kill percents on Froggy are 92%, 127% and 152% from closest side, centre-stage and far-side of FD, and :4greninja: is lucky enough to have near-exact data on kill percents with rage recorded for him further down in that post, where he dies at 73%, 103% and 123% respectively when Ness is at 150% rage. In other words, look at Ness' rage and that will give you an indication on whether you should be playing more carefully against him at any given time.

Hope that helps you, and gives you a fresh perspective. Hopefully Noa will give his input as well. Thanks guys. <3 ^_^
 

bc1910

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"Ness has to be cautious" and "he should die every time he uses PKT2" (paraphrased) are not contradictory at all. Surely if he should be dying whenever he has to use that move as recovery, he would have to be cautious how and when he uses it? And how he recovers at all?

You can't talk about cop-outs if you're going to make the assumption that I think Greninja wins because of his edgeguarding and thus must be wrong. That in itself is a cop-out, because I've tried to cover many aspects of the MU and presented my reasoning for why I think Greninja wins for several reasons. I mean, I don't know if that's what you intended, but I find there's a little bit of pot-kettle-black with your cop-out statement.

I don't agree with everything @ FullMoon FullMoon said but I see no point in picking apart his post. I can at least agree that discussing what each character should be doing in the MU is probably more beneficial overall.
 

Noa.

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Ness is a character that focuses on punishing mistakes heavily. Play as safe as possible. It's like playing against Ganondorf but he's smaller and more mobile.
 

Luco

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"Ness has to be cautious" and "he should die every time he uses PKT2" (paraphrased) are not contradictory at all. Surely if he should be dying whenever he has to use that move as recovery, he would have to be cautious how and when he uses it? And how he recovers at all?

You can't talk about cop-outs if you're going to make the assumption that I think Greninja wins because of his edgeguarding and thus must be wrong. That in itself is a cop-out, because I've tried to cover many aspects of the MU and presented my reasoning for why I think Greninja wins for several reasons. I mean, I don't know if that's what you intended, but I find there's a little bit of pot-kettle-black with your cop-out statement.

I don't agree with everything @ FullMoon FullMoon said but I see no point in picking apart his post. I can at least agree that discussing what each character should be doing in the MU is probably more beneficial overall.
No, because if he should be dying every time he has to use it then there's no need to be 'cautious' when using it because apparently we're going to die anyway, unless you believe that Ness should be coming back at least every so often which would mean there was merit to being 'cautious', and sure there's room for error on Greninja's part but then Ness shouldn't be dying every time he uses PKT2! XD *cough* Whatever, it's not important, I just think it was phrased badly.

And whilst I addressed the off-stage game, I don't think that it determines the MU. I've already said that I think we win when it comes to killing (I don't know who you think has 'easier to land' killing moves than Ness save for maybe Luigi who finds it just as hard to get in under most circumstances but whatever) and that air to air we'll more commonly win too. I also think that we can edge-guard you better than you give us credit for (if you're in a position where DJ / SS won't get you to the edge then PKT is a rather safe way of adding percent even if we feel scared to go out) and we combo really well and punish you for mistakes very well. Most of this has already been mentioned elsewhere, so I can't agree that I'm being hypocritical. You brought the nerfs out of nowhere, it's not like we said anything about the old Greninja and how "hard he fell from grace" or what-have-you. It was a very strange statement that made it sound like Greninja had been victimised when he hadn't...

Look this discussion is getting us nowhere, could we please drop it? (More exciting is that I'm coming to England soon so we should play online together sometime!! :grin: )
 
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Luco

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If you guys can arrange the characters into an organized listing I'll put MU ratios next to them for you. I am really busy so going in depth for every character is something I can't do.
Haha NAKAT I'm only asking you to input your thoughts on this one MU in particular, you're in the Greninja boards, not the Ness one. :p

Noa put up a thread for Ness' MUs and has put an organised listing for a rough top 12, the thread is here if you want to check it out in particular. :p

http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-matchup-chart-discussion-thread.402589/page-4#post-19371887
 
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Earthbound360

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Alright, so the Ness boards convinced me to come out here, and normally I'm not too comfortable with doing this.

Anyways, I want to first mention that using Techei's videos from S@X streams is NOT a good measurement of the matchup. Techei is good yes, and no offense to players like Coreo and Shuriblur, but they aren't even PR material for our region. If you want a fair measurement, you should consider matches between the highest level players for the characters in the region. That would be me, Mik! and Techei. Normally, Techei beats these okay Ness players on stream, but whenever Techei and I play, I usually get the better of him. Similarly, you can't base your matchup input on mediocre Ness players you come across in tournament yourself.

Now for my own personal matchup analysis. Reading through this, I can pretty much agree to the fact that Ness off stage with PKT2 is pretty much dead. If the Greninja is paying attention, or not reeling from being knocked away, he can almost guarantee a HP gimp. However, Greninja really has no way of setting this up consistently. Ness being off stage is NOT a 50:50 on the DJ read. If you just look at the options he has, he can DJ+air dodge, DJ+aerial, and DJ into an instant PKT right under the stage lip. No, you cannot react and HP that last one, I'm talking about instant PKT ledge snapping here which is actually quite safe.With Ness' very fast aerials with good range and priority, and Ness won't be forced out of his DJ very often unless the Greninja player got a very VERY good read.

When it comes to just edgeguarding in general, I feel that neither character can do much to each other. Greninja just doesn't have the coverage and meaty hitboxes to pressure Ness out of his DJ and setup the gimp. His fair isn't even as close to being as bad as Sheik's. It's much slower and easily avoided. As for Ness, a smart Ness will never DJ for an edgeguard lest he get his stock turned on him. He should always save that DJ for getting back. Add to that the fact that Greninja has shadow sneak which is really hard to punish unless used aggressively, and he won't be getting much more than one aerial on Greninja either.

And let me state right now that none of us Ness players even care about the Greninja nerfs. The difference between Greninja players thinking it's a good matchup because of gimping being a "cop out" and Ness players saying nerfs as a cop out is that no Ness players even brought up the nerfs. Heck, I didn't even play Techei until after the nerfs were already done. Like seriously, Luco, Noa, nor I have ever even mentioned Greninja nerfs anywhere. We don't think Ness wins because of the nerfs, we think Ness wins because he's got the tools to handle Greninja. The nerfs just happen to be there, and they don't change much about the matchup at all.

On the ground, yes Greninja beats Ness, but so do a lot of other characters. But I'm still firm on believing that he only beats him by a little bit. Realistically, both characters are usually just trying to set up grabs. Ness for his combos, and Greninja for his uthrow. Greninja has setups into his uthrow on the ground and Ness does not, but Ness can set those up with his aerial, particularly uair. The the shuriken isn't really bad at all, more of just a nuisance. They don't even compare to needles. Ness can actually nair right through them (the small ones at least, the big ones are an easy bat reflect and shouldn't be used often in this matchup). But a small advantage on the ground just isn't enough to make a NEss matchup bad for him. If that were the case, Ness would be low tier, since most characters beat him on the ground. You need a SIGNIFICANT advantage on the ground here since the moves that Ness DOES land on the ground usually yield high damage or knockback (PKF and bthrow).

I can't believe the argument was made in this thread that Ness' KO options aren't that good. Really? Especially in comparison to Greninja, Ness is a GOD at killing. I'm convinced that Ness has the best KO options in the entire game. They're fast, low risk, pretty generous with their hitboxes, and pretty strong. At least, the good ones are. There's really no arguing it here, Ness doesn't even have to set up his kills like character such as Fox and Greninja himself. No uthrow in KO, no dash attack into KO, no jab cancel into KO, just raw bair, uair, and bthrow do the trick. And lemme tell you, having a good KO grab option instantly puts you in high tier on the KO potential list. I'm sorry, but Greninja's usmash or uthrow to uair just can't compare. When it comes to KOing, Greninja just has to put so much more on the line, all while Ness is throwing out bairs constantly with little to no risk.
And did I really hear that Ness uair has a small hitbox? That thing is a nair in disguise lol. I've hit people below me with that thing.

Now for the aerial game. I think most players can agree that Ness wins here. But what some people fail to see is just how well Ness handles Greninjas aerials himself. Not only are Ness aerials way faster than Greninjas, but they just outpriotize and trade so well with them too. Greninja's fair just gets beaten to the punch so easily despite its range. When it comes to bair and uair, nair just beats them so easily. It hits Greninja right out of it, and even if it trades, its a very positive trade for Ness. And Greninja can't afford to be trading aerials with Ness all game considering how much better Ness is at killing than Greninja. Greninja's common kill setups often involve uthrows into uairs, or usmash reads. Ness breaks out of that uthrow setup so easily since his air dodge and nair are so good. Nair just stops the uair if they trade. I mostly get KO'd by usmash reads.

When it comes to damage and combos, I feel it's a very slow aspect for each character. Both of them are capable of mitigating each others damage fairly well. Greninja can shadow sneak out of dthrow fair combos (Techei does this to me all the time, it's annoying), while Ness breaks out of Greninja's throw sets with his small stature, air dodge, floaty jump, and combo breaking nair. But I will mention that if a Ness player is smart with handling the shadow sneak combo escapes, he can catch the Greninja player on the end lag. Ness can also just for for the dthrow uair combo for a solid amount of damage that can't be escaped. I still feel like Ness outdamages Greninja in this matchup. Don't underestimate how much Ness can do if he gets in on you.

Honestly, I feel like I'm detecting some downplay on Ness' KO and damage potential coming from the posts in this thread. Ness is like Ganondorf's son in this game lol. Don't sleep on the hurt he can dish out in a short amount of time.

I've played Techei a lot at this point, so I feel like I have a good handle on this matchup. Like I said, I more often get the better of him, and if I were to put a number on this matchup (and I know this will piss off a lot of Greninja players), I would say that it's actually slighty in Ness' favor. Ness only has 4 or 5 actual bad matchups, I don't see Greninja even coming close to being as threatening as them. And I'm even one to say our matchups are worse than most Ness players would think (I still think Diddy is bad, and the Ness boards disagree with me). Ness wins in the air, at KOing, and deals more damage in general, and loses off stage and slightly on the ground.
55:45 for Ness is my impression, the lowest I'm settling for is even. There's just no way it's a bad matchup for me.
 
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FullMoon

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Alright, so the Ness boards convinced me to come out here, and normally I'm not too comfortable with doing this.

Anyways, I want to first mention that using Techei's videos from S@X streams is NOT a good measurement of the matchup. Techei is good yes, and no offense to players like Coreo and Shuriblur, but they aren't even PR material for our region. If you want a fair measurement, you should consider matches between the highest level players for the characters in the region. That would be me, Mik! and Techei. Normally, Techei beats these okay Ness players on stream, but whenever Techei and I play, I usually get the better of him. Similarly, you can't base your matchup input on mediocre Ness players you come across in tournament yourself.

Now for my own personal matchup analysis. Reading through this, I can pretty much agree to the fact that Ness off stage with PKT2 is pretty much dead. If the Greninja is paying attention, or not reeling from being knocked away, he can almost guarantee a HP gimp. However, Greninja really has no way of setting this up consistently. Ness being off stage is NOT a 50:50 on the DJ read. If you just look at the options he has, he can DJ+air dodge, DJ+aerial, and DJ into an instant PKT right under the stage lip. No, you cannot react and HP that last one, I'm talking about instant PKT ledge snapping here which is actually quite safe.With Ness' very fast aerials with good range and priority, and Ness won't be forced out of his DJ very often unless the Greninja player got a very VERY good read.

When it comes to just edgeguarding in general, I feel that neither character can do much to each other. Greninja just doesn't have the coverage and meaty hitboxes to pressure Ness out of his DJ and setup the gimp. His fair isn't even as close to being as bad as Sheik's. It's much slower and easily avoided. As for Ness, a smart Ness will never DJ for an edgeguard lest he get his stock turned on him. He should always save that DJ for getting back. Add to that the fact that Greninja has shadow sneak which is really hard to punish unless used aggressively, and he won't be getting much more than one aerial on Greninja either.

And let me state right now that none of us Ness players even care about the Greninja nerfs. The difference between Greninja players thinking it's a good matchup because of gimping being a "cop out" and Ness players saying nerfs as a cop out is that no Ness players even brought up the nerfs. Heck, I didn't even play Techei until after the nerfs were already done. Like seriously, Luco, Noa, nor I have ever even mentioned Greninja nerfs anywhere. We don't think Ness wins because of the nerfs, we think Ness wins because he's got the tools to handle Greninja. The nerfs just happen to be there, and they don't change much about the matchup at all.

On the ground, yes Greninja beats Ness, but so do a lot of other characters. But I'm still firm on believing that he only beats him by a little bit. Realistically, both characters are usually just trying to set up grabs. Ness for his combos, and Greninja for his uthrow. Greninja has setups into his uthrow on the ground and Ness does not, but Ness can set those up with his aerial, particularly uair. The the shuriken isn't really bad at all, more of just a nuisance. They don't even compare to needles. Ness can actually nair right through them (the small ones at least, the big ones are an easy bat reflect and shouldn't be used often in this matchup). But a small advantage on the ground just isn't enough to make a NEss matchup bad for him. If that were the case, Ness would be low tier, since most characters beat him on the ground. You need a SIGNIFICANT advantage on the ground here since the moves that Ness DOES land on the ground usually yield high damage or knockback (PKF and bthrow).

I can't believe the argument was made in this thread that Ness' KO options aren't that good. Really? Especially in comparison to Greninja, Ness is a GOD at killing. I'm convinced that Ness has the best KO options in the entire game. They're fast, low risk, pretty generous with their hitboxes, and pretty strong. At least, the good ones are. There's really no arguing it here, Ness doesn't even have to set up his kills like character such as Fox and Greninja himself. No uthrow in KO, no dash attack into KO, no jab cancel into KO, just raw bair, uair, and bthrow do the trick. And lemme tell you, having a good KO grab option instantly puts you in high tier on the KO potential list. I'm sorry, but Greninja's usmash or uthrow to uair just can't compare. When it comes to KOing, Greninja just has to put so much more on the line, all while Ness is throwing out bairs constantly with little to no risk.
And did I really hear that Ness uair has a small hitbox? That thing is a nair in disguise lol. I've hit people below me with that thing.

Now for the aerial game. I think most players can agree that Ness wins here. But what some people fail to see is just how well Ness handles Greninjas aerials himself. Not only are Ness aerials way faster than Greninjas, but they just outpriotize and trade so well with them too. Greninja's fair just gets beaten to the punch so easily despite its range. When it comes to bair and uair, nair just beats them so easily. It hits Greninja right out of it, and even if it trades, its a very positive trade for Ness. And Greninja can't afford to be trading aerials with Ness all game considering how much better Ness is at killing than Greninja. Greninja's common kill setups often involve uthrows into uairs, or usmash reads. Ness breaks out of that uthrow setup so easily since his air dodge and nair are so good. Nair just stops the uair if they trade. I mostly get KO'd by usmash reads.

When it comes to damage and combos, I feel it's a very slow aspect for each character. Both of them are capable of mitigating each others damage fairly well. Greninja can shadow sneak out of dthrow fair combos (Techei does this to me all the time, it's annoying), while Ness breaks out of Greninja's throw sets with his small stature, air dodge, floaty jump, and combo breaking nair. But I will mention that if a Ness player is smart with handling the shadow sneak combo escapes, he can catch the Greninja player on the end lag. Ness can also just for for the dthrow uair combo for a solid amount of damage that can't be escaped. I still feel like Ness outdamages Greninja in this matchup. Don't underestimate how much Ness can do if he gets in on you.

Honestly, I feel like I'm detecting some downplay on Ness' KO and damage potential coming from the posts in this thread. Ness is like Ganondorf's son in this game lol. Don't sleep on the hurt he can dish out in a short amount of time.

I've played Techei a lot at this point, so I feel like I have a good handle on this matchup. Like I said, I more often get the better of him, and if I were to put a number on this matchup (and I know this will piss off a lot of Greninja players), I would say that it's actually slighty in Ness' favor. Ness only has 4 or 5 actual bad matchups, I don't see Greninja even coming close to being as threatening as them. And I'm even one to say our matchups are worse than most Ness players would think (I still think Diddy is bad, and the Ness boards disagree with me). Ness wins in the air, at KOing, and deals more damage in general, and loses off stage and slightly on the ground.
55:45 for Ness is my impression, the lowest I'm settling for is even. There's just no way it's a bad matchup for me.
All right, thanks for your input and I agree with you in many of your points to be honest (I never actually thought of using Shadow Sneak to escape D-Throw combos though) but since you have so much experience against a supposedly good Greninja player (I don't really follow top players much), what do you think Greninja should do in order to handle Ness better?

Not to undermine everything you just said, but I think that kind of information is just more valuable to help the meta develop than comparing two character and pointing out who wins.
 

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Results:
  • :4ness: (Somewhere between 45:55-50:50)
  • :4zss: (50:50, going off discussion between Shaya and others off in the competitive boards)
  • :rosalina: (50:50, going with Rosalina's board)
  • :4falco: (60:40)
  • :4dk: (?:?)
This Week:
  • A Balance Patch has occurred, so we will go to general discussion until changes are known. Some things to note:
  • :4diddy: (Recieved a nerf to UThrow and UAir.)
  • :4falcon: (Recieved a nerf to UAir)
  • :4myfriends: (Has received many buffs)
  • :4greninja: (Has received a buff to FTilt)
 
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bc1910

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When you list Ness and Falco as 45:55 and 40:60 respectively do you mean those MUs are in our favour? It's just a little confusing. I'm sure Ffamran meant to say we beat Falco 60:40 judging by the rest of his post, 40:60 makes it look like we're disadvantaged.

Also worth noting is that Diddy's Dthrow has been buffed in damage and knockback, but the knockback increase actually acts as a nerf because Dthrow is much worse as a combo throw. It actually doesn't combo at all at high percent any more. Considering all of Diddy's nerfs and our Ftilt buff, if we didn't go even with him pre-patch we certainly do now. We may have a slight advantage at this point.

I think the Ftilt buff alone will alter quite a few MUs. It should at least make a lot of iffy 50:50 and 55:45 MUs more solid. I know it's only a buff to one move, but I think it's a really big deal. One of Greninja's biggest problems was a lack of safe pokes and now he has another safe poking option. Also, Ftilt was borderline useless prepatch because despite the decent startup and great range, the old ending lag made it have almost no follow-up potential and it was really unsafe to use. We basically have an extra move now.
 

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My B, meant to say 40:60 Falco was 60:40.

Ness is correct, however.

EDIT: Redesigned the front table and updated it.
 
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bc1910

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Ah okay. I think Ness should be listed as 50:50 for now, there was no real consensus reached and 50:50 seems the best average. I for one strongly disagree that Ness has any advantage over us, it's at least even and I know others agree.
 

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My impressions on the nerfed characters:

Diddy might end up becoming an advantage for us considering now he can't even combo us as well. We still need to really respect his bananas though and his frame data is still better. Our F-Tilt buff also helps keep Diddy at bay to an extent so it might affect the MU too. Could see it being 55:45 now.

Falcon's Up-Air being nerfed means he can't kill us vertically as well, but otherwise this doesn't change too much in the MU. Still 50:50

Ike... He's still combo meat, has a very exploitable and predictable recovery and his mobility is still lacking. However his faster moves and improved hitboxes might end up making a difference in how the MU plays. No matter, I can't see it being worse than even for us.
 

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I think there's a lot of hype around the Ike buffs, but it will die down if (when) Ike ends up not seeing any tournament use despite the buffs. Ftilt is a scary move now and his buffed dash attack might give us some trouble, but the other buffs don't affect us much. Nair's landing lag buff is whatever since our fall speed meant his Nair to tilt strings worked well on us anyway, and jab already linked on us.

Fair hitting further above him is meaningless (he already has Uair to make mincemeat out of us there, we should never be in that range), hitting better below him could be annoying since it improves his landing options but it doesn't seem like a big difference. Quick Draw startup buff seems good but actually when you consider the move can still be blocked on reaction from far away and is way too unsafe to use up close, it's only an important buff for his recovery which still gets ruined by Hydro Pump.

I don't see this MU changing much, we should still beat Ike 55:45 or worse since we wreck his recovery completely and his onstage game isn't strong enough against us to make up for it. Our Ftilt buff isnt that useful against Ike but it's still nice to have a safe poke that outranges his jab, and also run back pivot Ftilt can stuff his Fair approaches.
 

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By the way, I think Charizard is a legitimate threat to us now. His rage Uthrow can kill us really early, usually around 100%, and it only takes him like 6 hits to get us to that percent. Thankfully his moveset in general is a bit lacking, but he does have fast options with decent reward like a 12% jab combo and some new Dthrow true combos and setups.

Zard was always hard for us to kill because he's the only super heavyweight aside from D3 to have a good recovery. Rock Smash was always a pretty obnoxious tool he had for getting out of our juggles, and Flare Blitz can make mincemeat out of us if we're too spammy with Shurikens. I think Zard had a pretty good MU against us pre-patch, probably the best of any heavy, and now he's got an extremely potent KO option that we really have to respect, on top of his other powerful but hard to land KO options.

I think he'll almost certainly rise in usage this patch and we need to study this MU thoroughly. It's all about not making mistakes and having good enough reaction time to block moves like Flare Blitz, Rock Smash and Fsmash on reaction.
 

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By the way, I think Charizard is a legitimate threat to us now. His rage Uthrow can kill us really early, usually around 100%, and it only takes him like 6 hits to get us to that percent. Thankfully his moveset in general is a bit lacking, but he does have fast options with decent reward like a 12% jab combo and some new Dthrow true combos and setups.

Zard was always hard for us to kill because he's the only super heavyweight aside from D3 to have a good recovery. Rock Smash was always a pretty obnoxious tool he had for getting out of our juggles, and Flare Blitz can make mincemeat out of us if we're too spammy with Shurikens. I think Zard had a pretty good MU against us pre-patch, probably the best of any heavy, and now he's got an extremely potent KO option that we really have to respect, on top of his other powerful but hard to land KO options.

I think he'll almost certainly rise in usage this patch and we need to study this MU thoroughly. It's all about not making mistakes and having good enough reaction time to block moves like Flare Blitz, Rock Smash and Fsmash on reaction.
Zard got bodied by Greninja if you jus camped him, he can't land. The matchup is still roughly the same, however, you're going to want to avoid the grab even more now. Imo Bowser is the best heavy against Greninja. Up-B OOs punish on anything misspaced is really annoying.
 

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Rock Smash is not that good to get out of Greninja's juggles because if he uses it in the air while you're trying to Up-Air him, just fast fall and you won't get hit and Charizard will be stuck in lag for you to punish even harder.

Fly is also vulnerable to Hydro Pump.

Charizard has an easier time with us now, but just having one of his strenghts improved (kill power) does not make the many problems he has in the MU go away.

He's still combo food, can't land without commiting very heavily to an option, can get camped, Flare Blitz is easy to react to and his recovery is not that good.
 

bc1910

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Rock Smash is basically a frame 1 active Counter that always activates the counterattack, don't see how that's not good. Fast falling away from him is not reliable, there are all sorts of positional and timing variables meaning we can sometimes avoid the attack and sometimes cannot.

A good Zard will recover high (or aim for the ledge) with Flare Blitz rendering Fly's weaknesses mostly irrelevant.

Zard got bodied by Greninja if you jus camped him, he can't land. The matchup is still roughly the same, however, you're going to want to avoid the grab even more now. Imo Bowser is the best heavy against Greninja. Up-B OOs punish on anything misspaced is really annoying.
The problem with Greninja's camping in this MU is that shurikens are laggy enough to be punished by Flare Blitz if we get too careless. That's actually the main reason I think Zard does the best against us out of the heavies, he actually has a powerful tool to punish our camping and runaway. That tool is risky and reactable in a lot of situations but it's still something we really need to look out for and respect, compared the other heavies who can't do much but try to approach normally. I think Charizard's normal approach vs Greninja is pretty bad but he sort of has this trump card to fall back on. So with that in mind, we now have to be even more careful looking for opportunities to go on the offensive/punish Charizard because a slip-up leads to more reward for him than before.

I agree that Zard can't land. Abusing that is going to be more important than ever.

Incidentally I think DK does better against us than Bowser, his range/speed/power ratio can give us a lot of trouble in neutral and his recovery is totally immune to Hydro Pump. Bowser would be my third choice though, I agree that Up B OoS is troublesome.

While I've got you, how do you feel about Greninja's Ftilt buff?
 
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FullMoon

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Rock Smash is basically a frame 1 active Counter that always activates the counterattack, don't see how that's not good. Fast falling away from him is not reliable, there are all sorts of positional and timing variables meaning we can sometimes avoid the attack and sometimes cannot.

A good Zard will recover high (or aim for the ledge) with Flare Blitz rendering Fly's weaknesses mostly irrelevant.
Rock Smash's super armor is frame 5 and just mixing up your game is going to do wonders against Charizard, bait a Rock Smash out of him and you're going to get a nice punish on him. It's useful for sure but it's still very exploitable.

If you see Charizard recovering high coming you can just catch him during the end lag, Greninja does have the mobility to chase him down. If he goes for the ledge, get to the ledge and use Substitute, he's going to bounce off Greninja and you can spike him with a downwards or diagonal Substitute, or if his damage is high enough just upwards Sub is enough to finish him off.
 

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Rock Smash is basically a frame 1 active Counter that always activates the counterattack, don't see how that's not good. Fast falling away from him is not reliable, there are all sorts of positional and timing variables meaning we can sometimes avoid the attack and sometimes cannot.

A good Zard will recover high (or aim for the ledge) with Flare Blitz rendering Fly's weaknesses mostly irrelevant.
For the record I am talking from experience. I actually have a really good Zard. As for Rock Smash I didn't assume we were talking customs. We don't really plan on playing with them too much in FL anymore so unless I specify otherwise I probably won't be talking about customs all that much. As for that specific Rock Smash Custom, yes it is better at covering him but you have to remember Charizard has to preemptively use Rock Smash. Greninja can simply bait it out with his jumps (they are really good for baiting followups due to even his SH going pretty high plus being a fast faller) and punish either with his second jump or by punishing Zards landing and/or lag.

Also, Zard definitely does not want to recover high versus Greninja. Worst postion to recover for him actually. You want to generally hug the ledge from low down and grab it using Fly's easy to land sweetspot. It's actually pretty hard for Greninja to land the Hydro Pump on Zard's Up B as long as the Zard player conserves jumps.

Flare Blitz should only be used for recovering if you need the distance horizontally or are making a read that will connect with the opponent. Otherwise you're just taking damage for no reason.

The problem with Greninja's camping in this MU is that shurikens are laggy enough to be punished by Flare Blitz if we get too careless. That's actually the main reason I think Zard does the best against us out of the heavies, he actually has a powerful tool to punish our camping and runaway. That tool is risky and reactable in a lot of situations but it's still something we really need to look out for and respect, compared the other heavies who can't do much but try to approach normally. I think Charizard's normal approach vs Greninja is pretty bad but he sort of has this trump card to fall back on. So with that in mind, we now have to be even more careful looking for opportunities to go on the offensive/punish Charizard because a slip-up leads to more reward for him than before.
This is player based, not matchup based. If the Greninja player get's Blitz'd for throwing Shurikens in a punishable manner then they deserved it.

I agree that Zard can't land. Abusing that is going to be more important than ever.
I've played the matchup quite a bit from both sides. It's ridiculously obnoxious as Zard if the Greninja player knows what they're doing. It's not his worst matchup or anything but it's quite similar to what he has to go through when playing Shiek.

Incidentally I think DK does better against us than Bowser, his range/speed/power ratio can give us a lot of trouble in neutral and his recovery is totally immune to Hydro Pump. Bowser would be my third choice though, I agree that Up B OoS is troublesome.
DK has more trouble getting out of the air than Bowser does. Bowser can at least read certain followups and counter with his Dair, Flamethrower or Down B to get down. DK needs to pray he guesses right on the air dodge. DK is more annoying if your spacing is off as he has better mobility to catch your landings but once you don't give him too many opportunities to do that I feel like Bowser and his Up B will cause Greninja more fits.

While I've got you, how do you feel about Greninja's Ftilt buff?
The move is a really good now. It gives Greninja a solid poke in a range where all he had before was Grab and Dash Attack, which is really nice. It also sets up tech chase scenarios pretty easily at mid to high percents. You can probably land Shadow Sneaks to kill off it as a read if they don't tech. I'm still accessing just how useful the move is overall as I never really used to touch it too much, but it only means good things for his neutral in he future.

I just wish they would make one of his aerials useable OOS as that's his biggest issue imo. This character literally hates pressing the shield button. Make the first hit of Bair hit low and/or cut the startup on Dair and he would be amazing.
 
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busken

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damn, greninja has bad mu against sheik...that sucks... Also, I thought edge guarding was greninja's strong suit. Even though his aerials are easily telegraphed his hydro pump can easily beat many recoveries as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzPLcV8B8h8 I think you still have to read the double jump tho
 

Gunla

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We return this week with a definitive list of changes to our ninja frog and many others.
  • :4pit: (?:?)
  • :4darkpit: (?:?)
  • :4kirby: (?:?, though I'm pretty certain this is in the 50:50 range)
  • :4dedede: (60:40)
 

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Let me just say that fighting Dedede in lag is excruciating, far more than it should be.

That and I'm very incompetent at fighting him.
 

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DDD might be the easiest character for Greninja to combo. All of the flashy combos are just easier to pull off with his size, weight, and fall speed. That being said, DDD is very hard to KO because of his great recovery and very heavy weight.

At long distance, don't even bother trying to challenge a gordo. Just shield it or go under. At medium distance, it can be risky to hit them back with WS because of the lag. Greninja can jump or crouch/crawl to avoid gordos altogether. Up close, you can roll behind DDD or try to challenge the gordo with disjointed hotboxes. You have to be sure you hit them AFTER DDD has released them, otherwise he can essentially get a free re-reflect (this used to happen a lot when I play Toon Link and DDD would time his gordo to hit right with my boomerang, causing the gordo to fly at high speed right into my face). Also remember that gordo toss has a hitbox on the hammer as well. Not getting hit by gordos is essential to avoid taking too much free damage.

Hydro Pump doesn't reflect gordos.

DDD's attacks are usually either slow to start with moderate recovery, or quick to start with punishable recovery.

DDD's ledgeguarding is strong with high bouncing gordos and d smash in his toolkit. Whichever ledge option Greninja chooses is probably going to require some timing based on the gordo bounce.

Learn to count DDD's jumps like you might with Jigglypuff to avoid getting baited into unsafe approaches. Greninja's mobility and smart WS use can at least stalemate DDD on most stages.

DDD's Uair pierces pretty much every stage and makes him difficult to ledge guard. If DDD ever misses the ledge sweetspot, upwards substitute is almost always the best punish, and can lead to Uair follow ups if the DDD isn't careful.

Let me just say that fighting Dedede in lag is excruciating, far more than it should be.
It's the worst. I rarely play Greninja online anymore to avoid games like these.

Greninja's awkward neutral game is made difficult by DDD's massive, disjointed hitboxes. He's heavy, and while his KO options aren't great he does have the potential to KO early.

I'd say 55:50, Greninja's favor, although I feel like that's a little optimistic. It's definitely doable, just a pain. If I played a DDD in tournament I would not choose to use my Greninja.
 

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I'll extend this by a week, given the CEO hype train and general lack of posts.
 

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Something I noticed while playing FG today is that Greninja's Up-Tilt is really good at stopping Kirby's D-Air and N-Air since a lot of the time he's going to attack right above you. It's not perfect since he can still attack you from an angle but it can be pretty helpful at time, especially since it also true combos into Up-Air at kill %
 

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Something I noticed while playing FG today is that Greninja's Up-Tilt is really good at stopping Kirby's D-Air and N-Air since a lot of the time he's going to attack right above you. It's not perfect since he can still attack you from an angle but it can be pretty helpful at time, especially since it also true combos into Up-Air at kill %
This is a really good point, and applies to other characters that often approach from directly above as well, like Peach. Also, Greninja's Utilt reduces the height of his hurtbox and can be used while crawling (and if you can continue to crawl afterwards), which makes it a bit easier when trying to space correctly.
 

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Hey guys, here is an OLD video of me losing to a friend of mine who I massively underestimated since I destroyed him in friendlies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPu1WIBWUa0

I did try to regain my footing, but I started playing quite awful. Anyway check if any of the stuff he did is stuff that will help. I know I missed tons of techs and stuff (wouldnt happen now) but yeah.


Now besides that, I think this is 55:45 in Greninjas favor
 
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WolfieXVII ❂

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Oki doki, after forgetting to post here a couple of times, I bring my opinion on the Kirby MU
55-44 :4greninja: imo
I've sat through soooo many matches against Greninja's of various skill levels and I can surely say that he wins this MU
gimme a couple to edit stuff in
Greninja's airspeed is vastly superior to Kirby's so we should mostly on the ground for this MU
USmash can kill us ridiculously early
Our tilts clash with jabs, and most of our ground kit is faster
However, we can be camped out and forced to approach with WS
You play footsies with Greninja here, and since Gre's grab is wide, but slow, jab stuffs him hard.
Gren is also a fast faller so UTilt juggles work well
WS is a must have in this MU so don't get inhaled
Offstage we get stuffed because Hydro Pump can easily gimp us + superior airspeed
Shield pressure is really important for Kirby because you guys basically have no standing grab LOL
 
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FullMoon

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So Pit and Edgy Pit...

Arrows go over shurikens. So often it can result in a trade. This is more dangerous with Dark Pit since his arrows are stronger, though since they're also slower we could potentially be able to shield it in time if we're at a good enough distance?

Watch your rolls and spotdodges! Similar to Captain Falcon, Pit might start fishing for Upperdash kills when we're at high percentages so, in the same vein as the Captain, be ready to shield because Pit is left wide open after hitting the shield with it so we can F-Smash him for his troubles. Dark Pit can't kill as early with it thanks to the angle, though do be careful with it near the ledge too.

No charged Shurikens. They have reflectors at their disposal, but due to the huge lag on them they're probably not going to bother reflecting small shurikens back. As an added extra, Greninja's dash grab has enough range to grab them through the Orbitar's shield.

Be mindful of their multiple jumps. They can throw your juggling off and end up letting them land safely or punish you depending on what you do. Try to follow them as they fly around and count their jumps so you can catch them once they finally have to get down. Our Up-Tilt is also a really good option for dealing with N-Air and D-Air since we crouch and the tongue has more vertical range (though I'm not so sure about whether it does outrange D-Air or not, it's been a while).

Hydro Pump their recovery. It has no hitbox so we have very little to fear when they use it, not only that but it can put them in the perfect place for a F-Smash or Up-Smash to end one of their stocks. If they're recovering straight up you might even be able to get them stuck at the underside of stages like Smashville, Town and City and Miiverse.

Arrows can be problematic when recovering. Pit will likely try to snipe you with arrows when you're trying to recover, so make sure to not lose your double to one of them or your recovery will be a lot more linear. Shadow Sneak also can ignore the arrows pretty well too. Dark Pit is significantly less problematic when we're recovering since his arrows aren't as flexible.

Be very mindful of Pit's range. All of his moves are disjointed and are quite fast, which makes approaching him difficult. Try to bait him into doing something unsafe and making him impatient with shurikens if you can.

Other things to note are that Pit can use his arrows to cover him while he's trying to return to the stage while Dark Pit pretty much can't do this. They both struggle to seal a stock at times and Greninja's slippery movement is likely going to make that even harder for them in this MU, so as long as you remain careful you should be able to abuse rage a lot in this MU. Arrows allows them to compete in neutral against us and approaching them is very difficult due to their better frame data and range, but as long as we play a good bait and punish game we shouldn't have too much to fear from them.

Oh, and Guardian Orbitars can screw our recovery sometimes, but as long as you're mindful of it, it shouldn't happen.

My impression so far is 50:50 for Pit and 55:45 for Dark Pit. Dark Pit simply lacks a lot of good tools Pit has (early Side-B kills, arrow gimping and cover, the weaker F-Tilt doesn't help either) that probably make this MU harder on him.
 

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So Pit and Edgy Pit...

Arrows go over shurikens. So often it can result in a trade. This is more dangerous with Dark Pit since his arrows are stronger, though since they're also slower we could potentially be able to shield it in time if we're at a good enough distance?

Watch your rolls and spotdodges! Similar to Captain Falcon, Pit might start fishing for Upperdash kills when we're at high percentages so, in the same vein as the Captain, be ready to shield because Pit is left wide open after hitting the shield with it so we can F-Smash him for his troubles. Dark Pit can't kill as early with it thanks to the angle, though do be careful with it near the ledge too.

No charged Shurikens. They have reflectors at their disposal, but due to the huge lag on them they're probably not going to bother reflecting small shurikens back. As an added extra, Greninja's dash grab has enough range to grab them through the Orbitar's shield.

Be mindful of their multiple jumps. They can throw your juggling off and end up letting them land safely or punish you depending on what you do. Try to follow them as they fly around and count their jumps so you can catch them once they finally have to get down. Our Up-Tilt is also a really good option for dealing with N-Air and D-Air since we crouch and the tongue has more vertical range (though I'm not so sure about whether it does outrange D-Air or not, it's been a while).

Hydro Pump their recovery. It has no hitbox so we have very little to fear when they use it, not only that but it can put them in the perfect place for a F-Smash or Up-Smash to end one of their stocks. If they're recovering straight up you might even be able to get them stuck at the underside of stages like Smashville, Town and City and Miiverse.

Arrows can be problematic when recovering. Pit will likely try to snipe you with arrows when you're trying to recover, so make sure to not lose your double to one of them or your recovery will be a lot more linear. Shadow Sneak also can ignore the arrows pretty well too. Dark Pit is significantly less problematic when we're recovering since his arrows aren't as flexible.

Be very mindful of Pit's range. All of his moves are disjointed and are quite fast, which makes approaching him difficult. Try to bait him into doing something unsafe and making him impatient with shurikens if you can.

Other things to note are that Pit can use his arrows to cover him while he's trying to return to the stage while Dark Pit pretty much can't do this. They both struggle to seal a stock at times and Greninja's slippery movement is likely going to make that even harder for them in this MU, so as long as you remain careful you should be able to abuse rage a lot in this MU. Arrows allows them to compete in neutral against us and approaching them is very difficult due to their better frame data and range, but as long as we play a good bait and punish game we shouldn't have too much to fear from them.

Oh, and Guardian Orbitars can screw our recovery sometimes, but as long as you're mindful of it, it shouldn't happen.

My impression so far is 50:50 for Pit and 55:45 for Dark Pit. Dark Pit simply lacks a lot of good tools Pit has (early Side-B kills, arrow gimping and cover, the weaker F-Tilt doesn't help either) that probably make this MU harder on him.
I'm going to completely ignore the point of your post and say that you stole my nickname for Dark Pit. :p

Honestly, Dark Pit's arrows aren't that much stronger than Pit's, and since he's less capable of landing them they're overall just worse imo. Upperdash/Electoshock Arm is basically better Raptor Boost, but unless you're taken completely by surprise it shouldn't be TOO hard to shield on reaction... Doing so is an easy punish, though I doubt most competent Pit players will be throwing it out super often.
 
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FullMoon

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I'm going to completely ignore the point of your post and say that you stole my nickname for Dark Pit. :p

Honestly, Dark Pit's arrows aren't that much stronger than Pit's, and since he's less capable of landing them they're overall just worse imo. Upperdash/Electoshock Arm is basically better Raptor Boost, but unless you're taken completely by surprise it shouldn't be TOO hard to shield on reaction... Doing so is an easy punish, though I doubt most competent Pit players will be throwing it out super often.
Granted, I have a bad habit of rolling so that might skew things since that way Pit players can read a roll and punish with Upperdash, but generally I didn't mean to say "they'll use it a lot" and more like "be aware of it so you don't get caught offguard by it". Pit players do seem to use Upperdash less than Falcon players seem to use Raptor Boost at least.

And yeah Dark Pit's arrows aren't that strong but taking more damage, little as it may be, is still something worth noting.
 

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Hi all! Just want to address a few conceptions here (misconstrued or otherwise).

Pit has one huge advantage over Dark Pit with regards to his arrows: he can aim them. That means he can hit you from almost anywhere on the stage, effectively rendering your shuriken useless if you're not on the same horizontal vector as him. A common trick is the fullhop arrow: not only can Pit aim his arrow in mid-air with this tech, it also eliminates the landing lag, as the animation will just about finish by the time Pit touches the ground. This means he can fire an arrow, aim it down and continue moving immediately after he lands. We can use this to snipe you out and hop right over your shuriken, so be careful about writing it off as another harmless projectile!

The Arms will usually only come out when you're at kill percents (120% is a good benchmark for Greninja in this case), though we can throw it out earlier if we want to soften you up with some quick damage. Regardless of how it's used, this move it best when it's not expected: it's very easy to read and guard (that's a free shield-grab right there, froggies), so we won't just throw it out randomly. It's a very good crossover option: Pit is great at condition the opponent, and if we can condition you to spotdodge after running past you (usually achieved by pivot-grabbing to make you hesitant about shielding on reaction), we can answer with an Arm to cover your dodge. This is really a Hail Mary for a lot of Pit players, though that may turn out to be its most useful asset - after all, if you forget it's there, it makes it the perfect trump card!

We definitely won't reflect uncharged shuriken; even charged shuriken is risky, as the godawful endlag on Orbies means we need to be very certain our reflect will pay off. We can also knock it back (not reflect outright, just toss it into the air) with our Arms, though because that will stop the Arm's advance, it's just as risky and may be only as a last resort. That said, fastfall Orbies can be a useful mixup if you're trying to catch our landing with a charged shuriken, so as with the Arms, remember that they're there and that we will use them to trump you if you get too comfy!

Hydro Pump to gimp our recovery is a good tactic, but just remember we can recover in more than one way: Arms' horizontal momentum is a good option, and we're invincible while we use it. Bear in mind that a good Pit will be used to mixing up their recovery, so it's not as easy to gimp as you'd think!

This is already covered, though I'll elaborate for the sake of clarity: when trying to edgeguard Pit, remember that arrow sniping applies here as well. A common trick for Pit is to snipe you with arrows while we recover, as it will either force you to block / dodge or you'll get hit and flinch; either way, it means we have a brief window of opportunity to grab the ledge while you can't react. This ties into the above note on mixing up recoveries (again, this is only really an issue with Pit, as Dark Pit's arrows can't be aimed to nearly the same extent).

Now, I mentioned earlier that Pit is great at conditioning - this cannot be overstated! Pit doesn't have raw kill power and, honestly, our moves are designed for spacing and racking up damage, very seldom will we be able to force a kill. We need to get creative, and we have just the tools for the job. Remember how this game is often compared to rock-paper-scissors? Pit will take full advantage of that, and he is very good at it. Because we have so many moves that act on reaction and can be used to punish your movements, we can condition you into reacting the way we want you to:

- Landing can be punished with a dash attack, conditioning you to shield when we approach. This makes it easy for us to grab you, and Pit has a great grab game: d-throw is our bread 'n' butter combo, while f-throw is a kill throw at the edge. We can also run right past you when you think we'll go for the dash or grab, then pivot-grab if you shield or pivot f-tilt / side-b if you spotdodge.

- If you spotdodge a lot, we can hit you with our f-smash: it's slow, but it has two successive hitboxes and is a good kill move if we can get the read in. Rolling can also be punished with d-smash, which can catch you no matter which way you roll.

- If you run away and try to force us to approach, we can pressure you with arrows. Pit's arrows can go right over your shuriken, as previously noted, meaning you will either have to try and throw out aerial shuriken (easy to fastfall / shield) or approach us instead. Again, Pit can do this, Pittoo can't. Poor little Pittoo~

- Even edgeguarding can be conditioned! If we notice you trying to gimp us in a routine manner, we can just mix up our recovery options: trying for a Hydro Pump gimp? That's okay, we'll just use side-b to dash back. Aerials instead? Our aerials are disjointed and can trade with yours if we're careful, or we can just fastfall and use our multiple jumps to duck and weave until you either pull back or we get a chance to recover. Or we can just snipe you with arrows to clear the path. If we're edgeguarding you, we will either snipe you with arrows to gimp your recovery or go deep and bait the airdodge (again, we can do this with arrows) and try for an aerial to get the kill. Either way, you want to be very careful with conning Pit when edgeguarding is involved!

The tl;dr version of this is that Pit is not very strong or tough, but he's crafty and we will play on reaction. What you need to do is use your ninja wiles to keep us on our toes and make sure we can't get the read in on you. If we can't predict you, we can't take advantage of our toolkit and we will be hitting thin air. I definitely think that this is an even matchup, in that neither party really has a true physical advantage and neither can brute-force the win: we both have to think and adapt as we play. Thus it really comes down to who's the cleverest and most adept at their fundamentals: the divine emissary or the ninja frog?
 
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Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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Pit has the neutral b advantage against greninja but side b advantage for dark pit. Yet it is great for Pit with his arrows. Be careful with you nair spacing because we can punish that fairly easy with jab, f smash, d smash, if you spot dodge side b, and so on. Just a little bit of add on info. This matchup is very even. Just be careful, Dark Pit may not be able to control his arrows as well but he can short hop them. Keep that in mind
 
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