Nair isn't safe on block at all tho and we can easily shieldgrab that, even if you crossup we can still Usmash OoS. Its also still outsped + outranged by Fair by 3 frames and Bair by 8.
Greninja a better edgeguarder than MM? How? We've got:
- A down Tilt that has intagibility on MM's legs,puts our feet on the ledge so you can't sweetspot it with HP unless you recover from down below
- Air shooters, which can scoop you if recovering high
- Ledge Trump Bairs, as mentioned before. Comes out faster and is more powerful than any of your aerials too.
- Leaf Shield, which is fantastic against recoveries that lack a protective hitbox like yours. If you're forced to UpB, we can activate this preemptively, run off stage, touch Greninja & cut him out of it, sometimes even getting an easy footstool from it (onstage, Leaf Shield Jab Locks into Up tilt can be a thing sometimes too). It might not outright, but you're still gonna take damage nonetheless. If you try to recover offensively with Shadow Sneak, we can still shield wile LS is on, and you'll get cut and slip down a bit too. You can sub it if you don't recover low, but that can be baited.
- Metal Blades. We can Z-Drop these or toss them diagonally or straight down, and Leaf Shield + Metal Blade (we can still hold items while LS is on) is a fantastic combo when we're edgeguarding.
- And that's without customs. I know customs have been dying in most places since post-EVO, but still, with customs Mega Man gets Danger Wrap and Tornado Hold, and these are even harder to get past. Meanwhile, your customs in general are pretty 'meh' and I don't think any of them are particularly effective against Rockman. Exploding Attack helps with edgeguarding a little but you lose an option against Crash Bomb and it becomes even easier to abuse your own recovery with Leaf Shield.
Overall, I don't really either side can do much to the other when it comes to edgeguarding, but I still don't see how you are better at it when we've got nearly twice as many options for it as you. I don't know how you're gonna consistently gimp us anyway when we've got above average weight, good air speed, can wall jump (twice!), and Rush Coil preserves our double jump and can even save us from getting spiked if you happen Dair us.
I agree that Greninja's kill options are better, but a LOT Better? I honestly think that's a bit of an overstatement. Remember people, we too have a kill setup: Full Hop and Diagonal Metal, and it can lead into a different thing depending on your reaction to it:
- If you try to aerial it, we get a Fair
- If you try to shield it, we get a grab, and not many characters can shieldgrab it if we're quick enough (not that your grab is even quick enough to counter this anyways)
- If you get hit by it, it confirms into a free Mega Upper or Spark Shock (preferrably the former for kills, the latter for damage). Get hit by this around 90%, especially on a ledge getup, and it's Game Over for you.
The rest I agree with.
Some good points here. A few I can challenge:
Nair isn't safe but it's infinitely safer than your aerials on block. With only 12 frames of landing lag and 11 damage it's frame advantage 0 on shield drop and -8 on shield. So no, since your Usmash has more than 8 frames of startup you actually don't get a punish on shielded crossup Nair if it's done properly. Your only guaranteed punish is grab from the front I think.
I know how fast your aerials are but it doesn't change the fact you can't outspeed ours on reaction. And I'm not convinced they outrange Fair but will test later.
Our edgeguarding tools consist of a multi-directional no risk windbox which, while it can't gimp MM outright, can stall his recovery and force him to land into a smash attack. We have Uair for high recoveries due to our insanely high jumps, which doesn't go as high but is way less telegraphed than yours. Our Bair is basically a worse version of yours for edgeguarding, but yours is amazing, so ours is pretty good. Fair is a pretty powerful aerial and forward facing, so quite useful, sadly it's sluggish, but it can snipe you out of Up B and maybe kill you. Then there's SHURIKENS, oh god shurikens. A much underrated edgeguarding tool which can snag jumps and force low recoveries. I much prefer shurikens for edgeguarding than regular metal blade because of how fast they can be spammed. The fully charged one forces airdodges too. Then there's Dair, which can be used offstage without dying and basically blocks low recoveries.
Twice as many options? Well I just listed 6 to your 5 (excluding customs) but effectiveness of options is what counts. And if anything they're the same. You have some powerful metal blade and leaf shield stuff but both are very telegraphed as you have to be holding the blade or having the shield activated. We struggle with low recoveries but have unpredictable (and, like yours, low risk) edgeguarding options.
Greninja's low edgeguards are his weakest point which MM can abuse so yeah, neither can do much to the other while they recover. But note that while you can wall jump, we can wall cling. The best thing about your recovery is that you keep your DJ after using Up B, but otherwise ours is probably better.
With the kill setup you listed, Fair and grab don't kill. So it seems like it's pretty safe to do anything but get hit by the blade on the ground. Your Bthrow kills near-ish the ledge I guess. Your ability to force an approach with pellets makes this more potent as well, but it's still quite obvious when you're going for it, which is an issue everyone who wants to kill with Bthrow at the ledge has. Don't know what really constitutes being a "lot" better at killing, it was just a subjective statement, I'd say we are but you may disagree.
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