Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Gunla]

This thread is used to discuss Greninja's Matchups, and Matchup Impressions!
Each week, we go onto a rotation of characters, 4 each. This means that every 13 weeks or so, we will go through the entire roster.

This is an archive of the previous MU Thread. Visit here for the current one.

Spoiler: Season 1

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WEEK 11:
WEEK 12:
WEEK 13: ()

Spoiler: Season 2

WEEK 1:
WEEK 2:
WEEK 3:
WEEK 4:
WEEK 5:
WEEK 6:
WEEK 7:
WEEK 8:
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WEEK 10:
WEEK 11:
WEEK 12:

Spoiler: Season 3

WEEK 1:
WEEK 2:
WEEK 3:
WEEK 4:
WEEK 5:
WEEK 6:
SESSION 7:
SESSION 8:
SESSION 9: ()
SESSION 10:

During these weeks, the topic at hand is the only one which may be discussed. Off-topic discussion or nonsense discussion (such as discussing MUs outside the rotation) will be treated as spam. This is being done to jumpstart the MU metagame of Greninja; we're working towards trying to find his place within the roster and this is the first step towards it.

Major Supplemental Information
Greninja's Moveset
Greninja's True Combos, by MartinAW4
​

 

[Gunla]

Matchup Table
This is a work in progress. The numbers here represent the general opinion of the public and are subject to change.

-Basic Table-

| ||||||||
| 50:50 | 60:40 | 55:45 | 55:45 | 50:50 | 50:50 | 55:45 | 50:50 | 55:45
|||||||||
| 55:45 | 50:50 | 60:40 | 60:40 | 40:60 | 60:40 | 55:45 | 60:40 | 55:45
|||||||||
| 50:50 | 55:45 | 50:50 | 55:45 | 55:45 | 55:45 | 55:45 | 50:50 | 60:40
|||||||||
| 50:50 | 60:40 | 45:55 | 55:45 | 50:50 | 65:35 | 50:50 | 55:45 | 50:50
|||||||||
| 50:50 | 55:45 | 55:45 | 50:50 | 55:45 | 60:40 | 55:45 | 50:50 | 50:50
|||||||||
| 50:50 | 55:45 | 45:55 | 55:45 | 55:45 | 55:45 | 50:50 | 55:45 |?:?
|||||
|?:?| 55:45 | 55:45 | 60:40

-Ratio Legend-
This is a basic table of the common ratios we use for ranking matchups; feel free to use it as a reference.

Spoiler: Ratio Legend

Ratio | Classification | Description 30:70 |Counter |Matchup is noticeably frustrating and difficult to deal with, potentially forcing a character switch. Given the nature of Smash 4, this is very rare.
35:65 |Noticeable Disadvantage |Matchup is a bit troublesome and will require precise play with little mistakes.
40:60 | Disadvantage |Moderate disadvantage. Matchup is harder to deal with and discrepancy between control of the match is more noticeable.
45:55 |Slight Disadvantage |There is a slight, potentially unnoticeable, disadvantage for you. Depending on your opponent's character, you may need to slightly adapt your playstyle to level the playing field, but the matchup isn't much harder.
50:50 |Even |Matchup is just about right. Characters are on an equal playing field and have no major advantages towards each other that aren't checked or rendered null and void.
55:45 |Slight Advantage |There is a slight, potentially unnoticeable, advantage for you. Depending on the character, it may just be that they have to work a slightly different way, but the matchup isn't much easier.
60:40 |Advantage |Moderate Advantage. Opponent has noticeably less control towards the outcome of the match compared to you.
65:35 |Noticeable Advantage |Matchup is much easier to deal with than most characters. Unless you make many mistakes, this shouldn't be that difficult.
70:30 |Counter |Opponent has very few options to contend with you, potentially forcing them to switch characters or lose a set. Given the nature of Smash 4, this is very rare.

 

[Gunla]

Stage Data & Examples
Characters are listed here with stages to avoid and stages to pick, as well as examples for how to deal with the character in question. Characters are sorted by the order they were completed in for Season 3.​

Spoiler

: 60:40 (Advantage)
Stages to Avoid: Dreamland, BF/Miiverse - Platforms assist him much more than us.
Stages to Pick: Lylat Cruise - Stage messes with fireballs and recovery.
Example - iStudying VS J.Miller
: 55:45 (Slight Advantage)
Stages to Avoid: FD, Town & City - Low ceilings are what ZSS wants; grabs can lead to stocks being lost quite early.
Stages to Pick: Smashville - General format allows for better survival. Ceiling is of a decent size and platforms are not excessive.

: 50:50 (Even)
Stages to Avoid: Duck Hunt/Final Destination - Generally gives him more space to use PK Fire and some other moves.
Stages to Pick: Town & City - Generally unsure of what exactly to pick but we always like having TC.

: 55:45 (Slight Advantage)
Stages to Avoid: Battlefield/Dreamland - Smaller stages that give us a bit less breathing room.
Stages to Pick: Town & City - Ike has more limited tools of dealing with our long range shuriken game here.

: 50:50 (Even)
Stages to Avoid: Battlefield/Dreamland - Benefits heavily from platforms.
Stages to Pick: Town & City/Smashville - Platforms are not overwhelmingly favoring of Mario, gives decent space to work with

: 45:55 (Slight Disadvantage)
Stages to Avoid: Battlefield/Dreamland/Smashville - Low amounts of space can benefit Sonic heavily.
Stages to Pick: Duck Hunt/Final Destination - Gives Greninja a fair amount of space to work with against Spindash shenanigans.

 

[Spirst]

I've been in For Glory for the last two hours. The only real issue I had was versing a Marth who actually knew what he was doing. I'm sure it's more of a character unfamilarity thing though as opposed to matchup, so far.

 

[o-Serin-o]

I'm just gonna let it be known: Big characters get ****ed, easily.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I didn't intend to really play as Greninja going into this game even though I thought he deserved to be included, but I played as him and he is, out of the newcomers I've played, easily the best new character. Powerful attacks that come out quick, unique specials, a pretty decent quick projectile move. None of his moves that I could tell had ridiculous lag on them. He's going to be one of the best characters in the game.

 

[o-Serin-o]

D-air lags, f-air lags, but that's about it.

Setups for days.

Only thing I really dislike is that his shorthop is taller than most characters, so you kinda have to time your aerials a little bit. Other than that, a top notch character, hands down.

HANDS DINE!!

 

[Robiin]

What the hell am I supposed to do against this beast Link player I keep facing? Wrecks me everytime. Spamming his monster projectiles which come out quicker and have further reach than my own. Try to approach him on the ground? Impossible. Stay back? Get hit by bombs and arrows and boomerangs. My jumps are so high that he can prepare for them for days. I thought I had worked him out when I tried to Shadow Sneak to him, but that has so much lag that when he learned what I was doing he just shielded and downsmashed, covering both his sides... I am going crazy.

 

[TTYK]

The servers are becoming a joke and this is pissing me off. They couldn't have invested money in dedicated servers apparently. I hope they fix this ****.

 

[Chiroz]

What the hell am I supposed to do against this beast Link player I keep facing? Wrecks me everytime. Spamming his monster projectiles which come out quicker and have further reach than my own. Try to approach him on the ground? Impossible. Stay back? Get hit by bombs and arrows and boomerangs. My jumps are so high that he can prepare for them for days. I thought I had worked him out when I tried to Shadow Sneak to him, but that has so much lag that when he learned what I was doing he just shielded and downsmashed, covering both his sides... I am going crazy.

Your projectiles are faster than Link's, if he's camping just tap B as quickly as you can, you'll win it. Get him in the air and juggle him, Your aerials are so much better than his. Your back-air has more range than anything he has and your Up-Air can eat through his Down-Air if spaced just right.

When he's out of the stage throw lots of shurikens and try to steal his second jump. One back-air or Up-B gimp (Pump Push) after he's used his second jump should be enough to warrant the stock.



Edit: Some good ways to get him into the air is Up-Throw->Up-Air and Dash Attack-> Forward Air. If he is too high % for either then just follow him in the air and see how he reacts and punish accordingly. If he starts air dodging these combos then wait out his air dodge and punish as soon as it ends.

 

[Kevandre]

Greninja is probably my biggest surprise of this game. I was pretty meh about him but oh my leg do I love him.

So freaking good.

 

[Erionn]

I absolutely love Greninja. I had been interested in him from the day hie was announce, as he is one of if not my favorite Gen 6 Pokemon. Having finally gotten my hands on him, he just feels amazing.

Main issue I face right now is doing Side-B instead of Up-B sometimes when I'm off the ledge, the 3DS Circle Pad likes to register up-right as right quite often it seems.

 

[tebby]

i am going to be the greatest greninja main of all time

 

[Kevandre]

Just because I'm loving Greninja so much. It's something I really didn't anticipate.

 

[TTYK]

After playing in For Glory mode for a while, they only character that really made me feel uncomfortable facing is Rosalina. I could never win a single battle against here... ugh.

 

[Iota]

I had the same exact problems against Rosalina, her kit just seems really really good for countering Greninja's. I had to siginificantly outplay the rosalina's I fought to actually win lol.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

For the first few matches I wasn't too impressed by Greninja, but it didn't take too long for me to have tons of fun and success with him. His only drawback is the circle pad, I only now understand why so many people accidentally did Side-B when recovering in videos, it's really hard to get the proper angle with your Up-B.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

^^^Also used Side B instead of Up-B a lot. I have had problems facing Marth, Lucina and Sonic but I always have problems with them. Do they counter Greninja or is it only I who suck?

 

[Jmacz]

So what have been everyones bad matchups so far?

^^^Also used Side B instead of Up-B a lot. I have had problems facing Marth, Lucina and Sonic but I always have problems with them. Do they counter Greninja or is it only I who suck?

Oh thank god it's not just me, I mess up all the time with us up-b I thought I was just really bad. I got beat badly by a Rosalina to, they just started toying with me so I ended up jumping off. It was a bit demoralizing lol.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

^^^Also used Side B instead of Up-B a lot. I have had problems facing Marth, Lucina and Sonic but I always have problems with them. Do they counter Greninja or is it only I who suck?

Marth and Lucina's range is somewhat of a problem for Greninja. Sonic is generally just annoying to play against.

 

[momochuu]

lucario matchup seems super annoying. you cannot gimp this character and they overbuffed his aura mechanic to the point of it being absurd. an aura sphere killed me at 80%

 

[seqquku]

Greninja's down B has pretty long delay/lag if no one hits you.

 

[PadWarrior]

Any tips for dealing with Robin? I fought last night and all he did was run away and shoot stuff. I know part of the problem of getting him was lag but man it was annoying

 

[TTYK]

Any tips for dealing with Robin? I fought last night and all he did was run away and shoot stuff. I know part of the problem of getting him was lag but man it was annoying

Shurikens are your friend, and so is shadow sneak. If they play the spacing game, you can easily play it too. But in terms of up close, you should be fine.

 

[T-block]

^^^Also used Side B instead of Up-B a lot. I have had problems facing Marth, Lucina and Sonic but I always have problems with them. Do they counter Greninja or is it only I who suck?

Marth/Lucina shouldn't be too bad. Shurikens apply nice pressure. If you can threaten enough with projectiles to force them to shield, that opens them up for dash grabs and subsequent juggles. The neutral game is pretty tricky against these characters... you need to play pretty safe, but Greninja does have the speed to get in (f-tilt as a poke can actually compete with some of Marth's spacing btw). Greninja has the advantage in edgeguarding though, so exploit that.

I agree Rosalina seems really hard though x.x I got double eliminated by Rosalinas at the launch tournament in our region.

 

[TTYK]

Marth/Lucina shouldn't be too bad. Shurikens apply nice pressure. If you can threaten enough with projectiles to force them to shield, that opens them up for dash grabs and subsequent juggles. The neutral game is pretty tricky against these characters... you need to play pretty safe, but Greninja does have the speed to get in (f-tilt as a poke can actually compete with some of Marth's spacing btw). Greninja has the advantage in edgeguarding though, so exploit that.

I agree Rosalina seems really hard though x.x I got double eliminated by Rosalinas at the launch tournament in our region.

Yeah, I cant imagine very many characters that can counter Rosalina at all. Her spacing game is fantastic 1v1 on almost all characters. The only time I beat a Rosalina online is when I used Duck Hunt Dog for great spacing game, and the second she used Down B I tore past Luma for a sick combo. Really tough opponent though.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

Another thing I noticed, is that if you hold B while using Side-B you will travel further with it. To be able to do this you need to move slowly across the stage for a little while though since you need to have the Control Pad aimed at one side. But it can be effective for doging and moving around when your opponent do not expect it and also to strike someone further away.

 

[TTYK]

Another thing I noticed, is that if you hold B while using Side-B you will travel further with it. To be able to do this you need to move slowly across the stage for a little while though since you need to have the Control Pad aimed at one side. But it can be effective for doging and moving around when your opponent do not expect it and also to strike someone further away.

that is pretty common knowledge, but yah.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

that is pretty common knowledge, but yah.

Guessed it was, just thought I could say it if it was not :-)

 

[Spirst]

I've had a number of issues with really good Sonic players. Greninja's usual fast pacing gets thrown out of whack and Sonic has all these annoying spin dash shenanigans to make my life a pain in the ass. A quick shuriken cancels out the spin dash at least.

 

[Chiroz]

I've had a number of issues with really good Sonic players. Greninja's usual fast pacing gets thrown out of whack and Sonic has all these annoying spin dash shenanigans to make my life a pain in the ***. A quick shuriken cancels out the spin dash at least.

Sonic does to us what we do to others. He disrupts our normal gameplay (at least for me and apparently you too, don't know if Greninja's in general). Greninja normally has a lot of control of the battle with his speed, range and projectiles but Sonic throws out control away with his mobility.

Keep your head cool and just counter what he does. No, not down-B, I mean counter his usual approaches. Learn how he likes to approach in certain situations and then use your tools to punish him for it. Greninja always has something to deal with any approach from Sonic assuming you can predict his approach and that you have correct spacing and timing (which sometimes is hard).

 

[Spirst]

Sonic does to us what we do to others. He disrupts our normal gameplay (at least for me and apparently you too, don't know if Greninja's in general). Greninja normally has a lot of control of the battle with his speed, range and projectiles but Sonic throws out control away with his mobility.

Keep your head cool and just counter what he does. No, not down-B, I mean counter his usual approaches. Learn how he likes to approach in certain situations and then use your tools to punish him for it. Greninja always has something to deal with any approach from Sonic assuming you can predict his approach and that you have correct spacing and timing (which sometimes is hard).

Yeah, the spacing can be pretty tedious considering you can't really shield grab his spin dash as he'll be behind you by then. Or at least, that's how I'm remembering it. I feel like Greninja vs Sonic is an incredibly "think on your feet" kind of match-up as opposed to the control Greninja usually has. Usually, after the initial spin dash, Sonics usually seem to jump up at which point you can try a shorthopped uair provided the shield stun isn't too great. I really need a lot more practice in this matchup.

 

[Chiroz]

Yeah, the spacing can be pretty tedious considering you can't really shield grab his spin dash as he'll be behind you by then. Or at least, that's how I'm remembering it. I feel like Greninja vs Sonic is an incredibly "think on your feet" kind of match-up as opposed to the control Greninja usually has. Usually, after the initial spin dash, Sonics usually seem to jump up at which point you can try a shorthopped uair provided the shield stun isn't too great. I really need a lot more practice in this matchup.

Yea, the most important thing I found is learning the timing and spacing to F-Smashing his spin dash. It's hard to learn but once you do he won't be spin dashing side to side like an idiot.

If he dash attacks just check his spacing, if he will end behind you then shield all hits but the last one and then turn around to jab/grab, if he'll end up in front you then just shield all and grab obviously.

Everything else is all about seeing how he reacts at each point and countering what he does. As you said most Sonic's love to jump when spin dash hits you and then follow with an aerial. Check which way he jumps (forwards, backward?) and then just jump out of shield and aerial in that way (or U-Air) as soon as he hits you with spin dash (on your shield).

You can spam shurikens if he is just mindlessly charging spin dash as you said.

 

[Fastblade5035]

In my experience, Greninja absolutely neuters Samus hard.
projectiles are all easily avoidable if you know what you're doing, and the you can punish spam by playing mind games with Hydro Pump.
I just aorta wavedash around, baiting the spam,then approach quickly with HP or Shadow Sneak. Sneak is great for stopping Charge Shots from fully charging.

Greninja can gimp well with Fair, which usually just kills in my experience. Hydro Pump is once a gain a great option here too.
In fact I should add that HP can push spammers off-stage by wavedashing, neutering their spam and giving you time to punish the recovery.

Mac is dangerous, but I haven't lost a single match against him. Just use vectoring hard, and punish his endlag with Shadow Sneak. Greninja's godly aerials also mean that Mac gets gimped laughably easy.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

When speaking of Hydro Pump, is not that kind of worthless outside of moving around/recovering?

 

[Chiroz]

When speaking of Hydro Pump, is not that kind of worthless outside of moving around/recovering?

Hydro Pump is probably Greninja's best move, and I ain't kidding. According to my online stats about 20-25% of my kills are just from Up-B and that's without counting all the times I use Up-B to set up for a kill which is a lot. Plus you can throw off your opponents game completely by just messing with him with this move.



Also, guys, please don't call moving back and forth wavedashing, that's not what wavedashing is. Just say weaving in and out with Hydro Pumps.

 

[Fastblade5035]

Also, guys, please don't call moving back and forth wavedashing, that's not what wavedashing is. Just say weaving in and out with Hydro Pumps.

I only refer to it as wavedashing for the pun.

Yknow. Wave... Dashing. Waves. I'm hoping it catches on.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

Hydro Pump is probably Greninja's best move, and I ain't kidding. According to my online stats about 20-25% of my kills are just from Up-B and that's without counting all the times I use Up-B to set up for a kill which is a lot. Plus you can throw off your opponents game completely by just messing with him with this move.



Also, guys, please don't call moving back and forth wavedashing, that's not what wavedashing is. Just say weaving in and out with Hydro Pumps.

So how do you use it?

 

[Chiroz]

I only refer to it as wavedashing for the pun.

Yknow. Wave... Dashing. Waves. I'm hoping it catches on.

Hehehe, that's kind of funny actually.

So how do you use it?

Read my thread on it for opinions and tips. It's on the Greninja character boards.

 

[momochuu]

this character and this game is hard