Official Master's Dojo - Greninja Matchup Thread

[Y2Kay]

This thread is used to discuss the matchups of our favorite ninja frog, Greninja! Want to view the previous MU Thread? You can do so by clicking this link.

Spoiler: Archive

Session 1: /&
Session 2: &
Session 3: &
Session 4: /&
Session 5: &
Session 6: &/
Session 7:&/
Session 8: / &
Session 9: &
Session 10: &
Session 11: & /
Session 12: &
Session 13: &
Session 14: & /
Session 15: &
Session 16: &
Session 17: &

Each Session, we go through a rotation of two characters, decided by you guys. Sessions are usually a single week, but can be extended if it is so desired. During these weeks, the topic will be focused upon the characters we decided. Off-topic discussion about unrelated MUs or social-esque discusion will be treated as spam.​

 

[Y2Kay]

Matchup Table
This is a work in progress. The numbers here represent the general opinion of the public and are subject to change.

-Basic Table-

|
||||||||||||

| 55:45* | | |55:45 | |50:50 | |55:45* |55:45 |45:55* | |||||||||||| |55:45 | |45:55* | | |60:40 |55:45 |50:50 | |55:45* |60:40 | 50:50 |||||||||||| | | |60:40 |50:50 |45:55 | |50:50 |55:45 |50:50 | |50:50 | 55:45 ||||||||||| |50:50* |55:45 |50:50 |55:45 | |55:45 | |50:50 |55:45 | |50:50* ||||||||||| |45:55 | | | |50:50 | |55:45 |55:45* |50:50 |50:50 |50:50 |

If you would like to view the previous MU Chart, you can do so by clicking this link.

Spoiler: Ratio Legend

Ratio | Classification | Description

* | Contested | Discussion did not reach a unanimous or near unanimous decision. Varying Opinions on the Match Up 30:70| Countered | A matchup that is virtually unwinnable in most circumstances. Secondaries are required for serious competitors. 35:65 | Severe Disadvantage | A matchup that is incredibly difficult in most scenarios. Secondaries are highly recommended. 40:60 | Disadvantage | A matchup that is hard in most circumstances, but unwinnable. Secondaries are recommended, but not necessarily needed 45:55 | Slight Disadvantage | A matchup with a mild difficulty. Secondary usage is up to personal preference 50:50 | Even | A matchup where both characters are evenly matched in battle. Personal skill is needed to claim victory. 55:45 | Slight Advantage | A matchup where you have an edge over your opponent.
60:40 | Advantage | A matchup where you have a solid advantage over your opponent. 65:35 | Severe Advantage | A matchup that you very rarely will lose in most circumstances. 70:30 | Counter | A matchup that is virtually unlosable with proper experience and knowledge in the match up

 

[Y2Kay]

This post is reserved.​

 

[Gunla]

Session 1 begins with Cloud Strife and Diddy Kong.​

 

[Calvonta]

? ? ?


The Cloud matchup I think goes hand and hand with every other sword fighter char mostly. Minus being uair'd to infinia-bits.

Even then you can just go straight for the ledge (becasue Cloud is somewhat afraid to go offstage). Also only move he can touch you with on the ledge is downtilt.

There's no avoiding getting hit by Cloud in this matchup due to his Nair that touches everything and his retreating fair and dair. Sometimes his uair.

Good news is, if nair touches you in netrual there's not much he can follow up with afterwards so his nair shouldnt be worried about so much.


If Greninja hits Cloud with basically anything first he's fairly easy to follow up on due to his moves not being in front of him instantly meaning he can't hit you out of you folowing up on that move.

I think if done right he either has to jump or airdodge. That's good for us.

 

[Lawliet626]

Diddy kong has bad air mobility mostly relies on monkey flip for recovery and for aerial mobility, you can duck under his fair and dtilt, and jab clashes with his banana, if he has a banana in hand then only expect money flip or a banana throw, so if you see him crawling then hes just baiting you and bluffing really
Also remember that dtilt to grab isnt true, try just going down and inmediately jabbing
If you get down thrown, just DI away from diddy.

 

[Illusion.]

feels 50:50 to me. He has amazing range/disjoints coupled with great frame data and killpower, so he's not someone you should be playing carless against. U-smash and U-air are his best anti-airs that you should watch out for, with U-air having the possibility to combo and keep us juggled. His N-air can keep us out and his D-air helps him get out of juggling situations. Charging Limit forces us to approach because it can lead to different things: Climhazzard makes it harder to edgeguard him since he goes higher and farther, Finishing Touch and Cross Slash leads to early kills, but Blade Beam doesn't really do much.

On the flipside, Shuriken can be used to annoy him and helps with edgeguards. He's very easy to edgeguard in general (assuming he doesn't have his Limit charged) since we have a great offstage game and edgeguarding tools; Hydro Pump especially messes him up, even D-air can work as an edgeguard for an instant kill. There is counterplay to his descending D-air in the form of getting to the side of him and nailing him with a F-air or B-air, it might even get him offstage and put him in an edgeguard situation. We can also juggle him with our own U-air, especially when he has his Limit charged since he becomes a fast faller, but you have to be careful not to overextend because you will more than likely eat a D-air. If you know when he has the opportunity to use it, bait it out and punish with the two aforementioned moves, although B-air would be easier. F-air, just like pretty much every other MU, is a good tool for keeping opponents out and pressuring their shield, so long as you space it.

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Town and City- our best stage, a bit of a double-edged sword, though

Stage(s) to avoid:
Battlefield- platforms help him way more than they help us, and they minimize the area we can use of one our best kill options
Lylat Cruise- tilting messes with our recovery and shuriken, and the platforms prevent us from using Usmash. He'll be able to get away with charging Limit more than he should

I don't think a high level example of this MU exists so I won't be linking one.

is probably 45:55. It's hard to get past his wall of F-airs along with his neutral being amazing. There isn't much that we get off of banana either, at least to my knowledge. Banana ensures consistent grab combos; his dtilt is also something that's very difficult for us to deal with due to it having very low cooldown and being safe on shield (remember that we lack good OoS options). All of these qualities make it to where he has a much easier time racking up damage and coming back from deficits than we do.

An effective strategy is to grab the banana and keep it away from him while also pelting him with Shuriken. When he's offstage, Monkey Flip is easy to intercept, and hitting him while he's charging barrels with a quick Shuriken will ensure he isn't coming back from the stage. Shuriken in general is good in this MU because it forces him to approach.

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Town and City- again, our beat stage. You really can't go wrong in picking this, barring a few MUs
Duck Hunt- more room to annoy him with shuriken and keep the banana away from him

Stage(s) to avoid:
Battlefield- less room to work with, also arguably our worst stage
Lylat Cruise- the Diddys I've played seem to like this stage for whatever reason. It's our second worst stage, so don't let them have it

Spoiler: MU example

iStudying vs. MVD

 

[David Galanos]

I think 50:50 for cloud is fair. I've always felt comfortable against clouds, but I don't feel very comfortable approaching with nair compared to other characters. The neutral seems a bit interesting, it can be hard sometimes to get around his nair and what not. He has better frame data and range, but we have shurikens. I usually opt to shoot shurikens instead of throw out fairs in the neutral.

We can both juggle eachother well, but we don't have his dair, though Greninja can deal with it pretty well. He can hit from the side with bair/fair but he can also trade with it with up smash. I believe the second hit of upsmash actually beats it out. Im not 100% sure but the last time I played a cloud it seemed to work.

Then there's clouds recovery and before I thought this was 55:45 just because of how easy it was to gimp him with up b but I think better clouds can work around it. If they aren't good at timing their up b though and they go too high above the ledge then they're getting gimp'd hard. But yeah I don't think greninja loses at all and it's most likely an even matchup. Cloud can still do cloud stuff against us but we have the tools to deal with him.

I think 50:50 for cloud is fair


Diddy I've always thought was interesting. I've played so many and have never felt too disadvantaged or anything but sometimes it did feel harder to fight him. Especially with killing, I find diddy escaping my kill set ups a lot more than other characters. Like down tilt to fair and down throw to fair.

I think in the neutral banana is better than shuriken, because shuriken simply pokes at them but banana gives you an advantage when you hit with it by giving you a free follow up. But then again shuriken is an actual zoning move and is easier to hit than banana, but diddy still holds his amazing neutral game in the mu is what I'm saying. I also don't find diddy that hard to combo or anything, and consider him a "normal" character when it comes to that. Like he's not like yoshi or anyone like that where they can nair out, which is always nice.

I think overall his amazing neutral still stands against us like it does for any character, and his frame data is better, but idk if it's enough to be a negative matchup for us. We are quick and still have shurikens, he may be able to rack up damage more reliably but I think we still do alright against diddy.

I can understand us having a slight disadvantage, but personally I think it's 50:50

 

[Galaxeon]

feels 55:45 to me. We have the mobility. We can mess with his recovery pretty easily, even the limit version. Just charging limit isn't an option for him because of our shurikens. It feels like we can juggle him pretty well as well. I know Cloud is good and I may be overrating the frog here but I don't know,. Maybe we go even and it's just that we have more things against him than most characters. But for now I think we have a slight advantage, he can mess with us hard but the better Greninja player should be able to win this.

I thinkis 45:55. He kills more consistantly, isn't that easy to edgeguard at all, wins the neutral, has more guaranteed follow-ups, too many safe options to approach with. We can run and jump and go in circle around him, in the end, he only needs one banana. SSHC is a thing sure, but I feel we just need to work really hard against him so I think we're in disadvantage here, although it's doable.

 

[Gunla]

I've extended this session to end on the 11th to accommodate the holiday.

 

[Lawliet626]

feels like either 50:50 or 55:45 his favor to me
Shurikens do wonders and cant keep him away and annoy him, although don't get too greedy when he has limit charged or he can mess you up with his limit neutral B, try playing around a range where you can punish a moved when whiffed and don't try challenging him in the air so much due to his aerials being so good, neutral feels kinda annoying due to him being able to throw out many moves and being able to get away with it a lot, we can both juggle each other pretty well although he has dair to escape juggles but when baited, our U-tilt get beat his d-air so that's good at least, but he can u-air us for days x.x
When he has limit charged he gets a vast improvement in his mobility and can get away with throwing out moves even more
If he Limit side B's you on your shield, you can roll in on him and punish if done correctly and (although i still don't know how this is pulled off exactly) You can also SSHC out of his limit side B
Edge guarding we take it home, D-smash and dair can be useful at the ledge when done correctly and hydro pump does wonders with his lack of a ledge snap, offstage try going for B-airs, shurikens and hydro pump (Fair can be useful but can make you lose stage control if you miss it).

feels like 50:50 to me
Horrible aerial mobility, needs side B to get anywhere in the air, his grab range is pretty bad, has very limited options and is mostly linear with a banana in hand. Jab can beat banana and monkey flip, His fair can be ducked under, Offstage he is most likely to ALWAYS go for monkey flip, which you can use b-air to beat or ruin with hydro pump and then proceed to further gimp his Up B. Try not to throw shurikens at his monkey flip because Monkey flip beats it if its not fully charged. If he tries to land with any move then we can just U-tilt and U-smash (If not timed right, then it'll just trade)
We are also able to SSHC out of the first hit of his F-smash and hit him back and potentially kill him and same with his U-smash.

 

[Guimartgon]

I think it's around 50:50
We have shurikens and more importantly, we have speed. Since we are faster than Cloud in both air and ground, we can keep him away and shoot from a safe distance, we have our disjoints as well which can mess him up since we outspace him in some instances too (although he tends to reach further than us in the neutral). We have an amazing punish game as well as a great juggling game on him, if Cloud ever commits to those landing Dairs you should be able to get on his side and Fair him offstage which can lead to either an amazing situation for us or him just losing a stock due to our fantastic edgeguard capabilities.
On the other hand Cloud wins the neutral the moment he is in our face cause lol big sword. Limit is scary as heck and we will die at like 70 easily. So he can easily throw safe killing moves while we struggle to land our ko moves if we can't find an edgeguard situation. I do think this MU can swing to 55-45 or 45-55 with ease while considering stage selection. I think we want a big stage here so that we can have an easier time running away so while he really like BF cause he can juggle us to death we also have an utilt that reaches the platform and a lot of ground to cover. FD feels like its in our favor cause we don't rely on platforms to juggle him as much as he does and we can up B and use all the momentum we get when landing to get out of his juggles. Smashville could favor him more since it's tiny(seriously, smashville why you so small) so he gets in our face with ease. Town and City is similar to BF, we both kill from the top, the platforms will help him more than us but it's a really wide stage so we can run away and shoot for days, it might be his favor because of how easily he can camp for limit in the platforms since it's harder to shoot him while he is on them. Lylat is a no brainer I think, we can't afford not having our shurikens for half of the match(Greninjas that like lylat please throw info on why you like this place at me). Duck Hunt feels like its in our favor because the ducks love to mess with limit neutral B and its a really long stage, just don't mess with that tree and Cloud's Uair cause hitboxes. DL64 is clearly on his side since he gets all of the benefits from BF, alongside higher platforms so we die even earlier, our Utilt doesn't reach the platforms and we don't have that many other tools to threaten him while he sits on them and we lose some of our combo game due to said platforms, it is also smaller than BF. So while we get an advantage in FD and DH, we have a neutral state in BF, maybe Smashville and maybe T&C, he wins in DL64 and Lylat(although again, I can see smashville and T&C being great for Cloud).
So yeah, I wanna say we have the tools to make this an even match up, but I can see an argument for why it'd be considered not good for us.

I think this MU is a 45-55 in favor of the monkey.

So I just recently started playing this match up a lot as CO decided that Diddy was the latest trend and people picked him up non stop. I want to summon @Ludiloco here since I feel like he knows more about the monkey than I do.
Anyways diddy, he has an amazing neutral game that can beat us fairly hard, SH Fair is godlike and if he is ever in our face that single move can pressure us enough to want to run away. He has solid frame data, a kill throw that could be considered stronger than ours unless we are in T&C, a good number of kill set ups that come from mostly safe options in the neutral e.t.c. So essentially we can't commit to anything at all, most of our options will get beaten by his leaving us shooting water as we run away looking for him to mess up. The moment he messes up though we can punish him big time, Diddy is very easy to combo, and I think that we can very easily combo him offstage or corner him. We can then edgeguard him with something like our fast fall bair which will force him to recover low which we can very easily punish by messing up his barrels with Up B and kill him from there. If he pulls out a banana that we can react to we can A) let him grab the banana if he commits to the jump and Fair him for it or B) abuse our much better air mobility to get it. Greninja with a banana is scary, you can literally shoot and run away and whenever you think you can commit to it, DACIT or just JCIT the banana into an Fsmash. Be careful since a crouching Diddy will get under your banana(and I do not think we can crouch under his banana since the crouch nerf).

So while we have options I feel like he overall controls the pace of the game in most situations leaving it at a 55-45 for him.

 

[Y2Kay]

is incredibly powerful with the banana in hand, but isn't when he loses access to it. In order to take advantage of diddy players, you must get him to separate himself from the banana, and to take advantage of any moment when he doesn't have a banana.

When a player goes for down B, immediately begin to close the gap between the both of you. Banana toss is a commitment, he temporarily gives up stage control by getting out the banana. You probably won't get damage, but gaining better footing is important.

When has a banana, you must respect his space. Don't just run into his zone. Learn the distance of his throw and all of it's variations. You have to bait him into giving the banana up, but on terms where you can react to it. Stay barely within his throw range, enticing him with walking and crawling. You should definitely throw shurikens during this phase too. Just don't charge them, and be aware of monkey flip and the banana toss. His mobility is poor so Diddy really can't approach you. Diddy is most like waiting for you to come dangerously close and pounce on u with banana. You must stay wary of this trap. Also know that bananas decay very quickly in this game. They clank with many moves, most notably Greninja's grab. Jumping over diddy could also work, considering how low banana hit stun is on aerial targets and how Diddy loses access to fair when banana is in hand.

Once you've enticed banana out of him, and grab it, don't immediately throw it. You having control of the banana can be pivotal in the match if you play it well, so don't "throw" this opportunity away. Once you have the banana now you can turn the tables and force him to approach. And as I already stated, his aproaches aren't good.

The main moves you need to look out for are: Monkey Flip Kick, Forward Air, and Down Tilt. MFK should be self explanatory in terms of how to punish it.Fair whiffs if greninja is on the ground, so u can run up under him and punish if he attempts to wall you out with the move. Down tilt has incredibly low hit stun at low percents. If you are hit with down tilt at low and mid percents, mash jab and it should come out fast enough to stuff certain follow ups.

His recovery is also a good time to exploit his recovery. Back Air can knock off Barrel packs, and Greninja has the speed + anti airs to catch monkey flips, just be wary of popgun cancels and b reverse mix ups if the monkey flips especially high. The timing is weird, so practice makes perfect.

You should know some follow ups from banana as greninja. His throw is strangely high, so adjust ur aim and timing accordingly. At the very least, learn how to grab confirm with it.


This MU requires a radical change in play-style, but if you can manage it, I believe it is even.

 

[Gunla]

Apologies on being a bit late with this. We'll instead take a shorter session with two of the more definitive MUs for Greninja.

- 50:50
- 45:55

Session 2 begins with Mewtwo and Sonic.​

 

[SEXYGOAT]

I think Sonic vs Greninja is 50:50. Shurikens can beat spindash, but don't let him get too close while using them. if he does, I think that fast move such as jab and Dtilt are the best thing to go for since the Sonic will probably try to either spindash or grab. Also I find that against campy sonics or sonics that like to spindash shield a lot, grab is pretty good. I say its 50:50 because while shurikens are good for spindash, they don't have the best start up, so gren cant really spam them and get away with it. Also because sonic can condition shielding because spindash, he can go for grabs, and greninja doesn't have fast oos options (at least when facing the opponent, fastest being jab oos which takes 10 frames). I think to win this mu we should try to get a grab or dash attack and not let him land at all since his landing options are pretty bad

 

[Galaxeon]

is 45:55. Despite all of our buffs, I think we still lose this one. He's basically the only character in the game who can, practically, outspeed Greninja. We can't move around him as we do in almost all other match-ups. Spin dash is a pain to deal with. He doesn't have many other advantages over us though. Offensive Sonic players can be countered with precision, and defensive Sonic players have to deal with Shurikens so can just sit there waiting for us to approach, that help a bit. We must try to punish him every time he lands, while being careful not to get outplayed at the same time. With time, I feel match-up experience will really help us Greninja mains and it might shift towards even. For now, I think he shut down our usual Greninja stuffs too much, so we must admit that we're in slight disadvantage here.

I feel is 50:50. It's a pretty fair and even match-up. He has a good projectile, is hard to gimp, is fast on the ground, has great aerials, a good combo game. We're fast too, I feel our combos work pretty well with his size and weight, especially after Nairs or Dtilt. We should get him into high percents more quickly than he should, but then that's scary, because he gets rage and has Up throw, and overall more kill power than us. But we're good at avoiding grabs and we can punish his attemps. And our Up smash is very scary too. Our own Up throw and Fair are great for killing as well. Both characters have great tools, so yeah, I think this is even.

 

[David Galanos]

The more I play the more manageable it becomes. I've been grinding the matchup for a little while against aggressive and campy sonics and I think it's still 45:55. Aggressive sonic is a bit easier to deal with but having a character who is actually faster than us isn't fun. Side b can be interrupted with shuriken spam and beaten out with nair, but I wouldn't suggest trying to stop a side b with a nair unless you're timing is perfection. The matchup requires a lot of patience and precision, it can be done but it'll take all you've got against a good sonic who knows what he's doing, especially if they know the greninja matchup. I think abusing shuriken, punishing sonics landings, and juggling him can help out a lot. Making sure we get the most out of our combos is very important because the opportunities might not come as often compared to other characters (But depends who the sonic is). Greninja can definitely spar up with sonic, it's just tough. He has to play his game (like most characters) and can't really do the best in it. Just play this matchup a lot and it will become clearer what to do and more manageable.


I'm still learning but as of now I think it is 50:50. Nair can be annoying to deal with but we can SSHC it, although it is random and not reliable. I have gotten kills with it and broken combos with it but then other times I get punished hard. I like to use it and hope that they get scared of nairing as much. I think Shuriken is better than his shadow ball in the neutral considering shuriken is much faster, but against the mewtwos I've played they don't try to zone with it much or anything. We can both combo eachother pretty well, sometimes though Mewtwos air dodge can be annoying. It's hard to bait it out and punish it, you kinda have to read the DI afterwards too. But yeah I would just be wary of nair in the neutral because it is a strong tool of his. You can out space with fair, maybe beat out with nair I'm not sure, and just pester with shuriken. Still need to play this more but I don't see greninja having a disadvantage.

 

[Gunla]

- 45:55
- 50:50

Session 3 begins with Mario and Mega Man.​

 

[SEXYGOAT]

Not sure about MM, but is 55:45 imo. We can abuse his lack of range with shurikens and Fair and have better mobility overall meaning We're able to camp him. We can also get out of his Dthrow Utilt combos at low % because fastfall and punish with jab (Though most marios will Uthrow at those % or Dthrow up B). I think we should also avoid shielding fireballs since Mario can grab right after if he follows it and greninja doesnt have the fastest OOS options. Also avoid fully charged shurikens because cape. If we can take his 2nd jump when hes recovering it can put us in a good position or lead to death. And if it doesn't, hydro pump can still possibly kill him. I think jumping away is the best option for getting out of Mario combos since we have a much higher jump height and a pretty fast jump too. Watch out for Usmash tho ofc

 

[Lawliet626]

is 50/50 IMO and COULD go to our favor depending on the stage
Fair does wonders in this match up, as he cant really do much about them, so abuse of any disjoints as you can with him
Shurikens are great against him as long as you know when to use them and dont become predictable with them
He can try and pressure our shield and due to his frame data and our OoS options, we cant really do much other than try and get him away, id say to try and fight at mid range
We juggle each other pretty nice but id say wins at juggling due mario having issues landing, due to our disjoints to catch his landings such as uptilt and Usmash (our up air should beat out his dair), and also due to having much more options to get back on the ground, especially with hydro pump.
Bait nairs and punish accordingly and do your combo game as usual.
He has cape and fire balls but we have a faster proyectile and we can also duck/crawl under (if done correctly) and jump easily over his fire balls.
When you get down throw'd, either try to fast fall down and shield/jab/just get away or SSHC out of his down throw in which you can get out of till 54-55% (no rage, rage is a factor in these percentages)
Off stage should NEVER be gimped by his FLUDD and if it happens (just stall yourself and wait till uses it), the player must've done something wrong. other than that you can Hydro Pump his recovery if done correctly and edge guarding feels even due to him having decent tools offstage (Bair and dair come to mind and he could go crazy with a Fair sometimes) and us having some good tools offstage too (shurikens, hydro pump, bair and other crazy offstage options that are as crazy as mario Fair like Shadow sneak and fair)

has to fish for a kill so whatever you do don't land on him with nair or dair at Usmash kill range because he will definitely be fishing for those, he has to get a read to kill or have you really high in percentage range with a good stage position to get a back throw while we have kill set ups and a kill throw that kills earlier than his. ALWAYS DI his dthrow away since that way dthrow to fair should never hit you.

Avoid stages such as Battlefield and Dreamland that extend his combos / shorten ours a bit / and give him more landing options and try to have stages in which you can catch his landings better and abuse your combo game like Final Destination or Duck hunt (T&C is good but i think it helps both characters alike).

TL;DR Pick flat stages if possible, abuse your range, catch his landings, fight him at mid range and avoid having him pressure you and/or your shield / Dont let him fight you so up close in which he can abuse of his frame data and Greninja's lack luster OoS options.

I would love to see inputs of the mario boards if possible

 

[Guimartgon]

I believe we lose slightly to but I could see it being even if we datamine and analyze the MU more, I did hear a MM from my region say it was very good for MM and said that scatt thought so too.

The reason for this is that MM can outcamp us in a lot of situations, metal blade is annoying and will lead into confirms at high enough %s and when paired with the lemon wall greninja can't do much, sniping through his lemons is pretty rough so even though we can run away, we struggle to chip % off on him. Approaching MM as Greninja is also pretty hard since all of our best combo moves come out super slow and we get hit by lemons before our hitboxes come out(Nair and Fair most notably) or they just have poor range (Jab and Dtilt). Of course megaman is heavy and a fast faller so comboing him once you land the combo starter is super easy, which I think is the best thing going for us in this MU so he gets hit by all kinds of stuff like Nair dtilt perfect pivot Utilt Usmash at very low %s [deals 41%], Utilt to Uair spike strings are fairly consistent on him as well e.t.c. But I feel like getting that hit on him is very hard and we need to comit to reading what option he'll do after his third lemon(either lemon some more, shield or retreat. Also since he is very heavy killing him at very low %s off of an Usmash confirm can be hard, but since we are super fast and can avoid metal blades like crazy he struggles to kill us off too. When comboing Megaman try to always leave him on top of you, Greninja's juggle game is super good on Megaman because lacks air speed and landing options so you can utilt him forever.

So yeah since we combo him super hard but we struggle a lot to win the neutral, I feel like MM can have a slight edge over us, making this a 45-55 at worst.

As far as goes, Lawliet summed up my thoughts on the MU much better than I could've, I think it's a 50-50.

 

[Y2Kay]

is honestly not that bad; it should be an even match up. People need to stop taking him to battlefield, because that's the only stage where it becomes bad for Greninja.

 

[Illusion.]

Aw shoot, I just realized I missed last week's discussion; had a lot to say too. Anyways, I'm gonna briefly contribute something that nobody else did:

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Battlefield- while this is one of our worst stages, this gives less room to camp and is considered one of his weaker stages
Dreamland- same principle applies here, just avoid the top platform because you will die EARLY to uthrow > spring uair

Stage(s) to avoid:
Final Destination- one of Sonic's best stages, just don't take him here
Duck Hunt- while we normally like this stage, it's not good against Sonic as he can very easily outcamp us here and it is very hard to get the lead back if we lose it

Spoiler: MU example

Some vs KEN (old, but there isn't any recent footage of a Greninja beating a Sonic because it's rarely happened...)

Spoiler: stages

Stage(s) to pick:
This is tough, basically everything we like, also likes and is a double-edged sword. Be careful, play smart.

Stage(s) to avoid:
Battlefield- platforms benefit him more than they do us, plus it helps him live longer and accumulate rage to kill us earlier along with it being among our worst stages

Spoiler: MU example

Some vs. Abadango

 

[Galaxeon]

I think we beat 55:45. We have fair to approach and apply pressure. We can deal with fireballs in multiple ways (shurikens, duck, jump... hell, even substitute can be a safe mix-up). Cape and Fludd don't do much to us (you can shield a reflected fully charged surikens, and it's really difficult for him to reflect a quick shuriken if he doesn't predict it). We can SSHC out of dthrow or utilt/uair strings, which limits his early combo games, while he gets combo'ed pretty well I feel. He still has Nair, Bair and Usmash of course, and he isn't super easy to edgeguard (on duck hunt though H-pump before his Up B is efficient - I think the match-up is largely stage-dependant, it's most likely in his favour on BF, and good for us anywhere else). So we're not really too comfortable I think, but we have a small advantage overall.

is probably even. Despite his flashy kill set-ups he still has trouble getting a stock besides Bair and Z drop metal blade. He's heavy, has a good recovery, and likes plateforms way more than us (like pretty much everyone). But I think fully charged shurikens go through everything he has. Also he likes to jump while shooting lemons, and we can catch that with our speed.
Both characters are so uncommon and have such a high learning curve coupled with hidden potential that I don't see it being anything else than even right now. Not enough experience and match-up knowledge. We can't know fore sure who's got the edge, if someone even has an advantage. Time will tell.

 

[JesusMorpheus]

Mega Man main here to provide some input. Now i don't have too much experience in this MU as I've only fought one good Greninja before. But I'll try to see what i can input that is helpful.

I'll just say this now to get it out of the way. I think this MU is pretty even. It's the same story of us trying to keep you out while you get in. Being able to combo us to hell and have fast movement on the ground to catch our landings is super advantageous as our only real answer for landing without Rush is with Leaf Shield. But we have a lot of tools to keep you at bay. Plus it is very hard for us to set up anything that isn't a lemon wall as Metal Blade and Crash Bomber have enough lag for you to chase us down and prevent us from setting up (unless you're quite literally across the stage from us). There really isn't much else to say about this MU. You have the speed to break our zone and lay on the damage really quickly while we have projectiles to keep you out and a kill confirm off of Metal Blade as well. Once you get in, it's very hard for us to regain our control over the match but that's the norm for Mega Man fighting fast characters. Hope i was able to help despite my little knowledge on the MU!

 

[Illusion.]

I honestly do think we lose 45:55 to , but the majority of his mains say the MU is even and so do the majority of you. So, the safest and smartest thing to do is conclude, for now at least, that this MU is 50:50. The reason I say we lose this MU is because Mario is actually hard to keep out. He has cape to deflect shuriken, the mobility to somewhat keep up with us and avoid our hitboxes, and safe moves with little to no endlag. We also get combo'd really easily due to us being a fast faller and it can be hard to kill him since the majority of his moves are really safe and lagless. His recovery having invincibility and aerials that easily contest us in the air make it hard to edgeguard him, even with Hydro Pump since he has the air speed to airdodge and still make it close enough to the ledge to use Super Jump Punch. He does not struggle to get in anymore than we struggle to keep him out... and when he inevitably gets in, he has a field day and there's hardly anything we can do. SSHC is practically useless in this MU.

If it wasn't obvious from what I said already, what you want to do in this MU is to keep Mario out: spacing F-air is arguably the best tool to do. Us having some of the best mobility in the game is what you want to use to your advantage, run away from him and punish his mistakes. Our punish game on him is quite solid in the sense that we can get a long footstool combo starting at 0% from a N-air, just don't spam N-air hoping to hit him because it's a punishable move when blocked; use N-air as a way to punish rather than approach. Use Shuriken once in a while to get a few potshots, just don't use it too much because he can easily reflect it with cape.

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Duck Hunt- probably our best stage to go against him on since it gives us more than enough room to run away from him and keep him out
Final Destination- flat ground, gives us room (not as much of course) to do the same plan as on Duck Hunt

Stage(s) to avoid:
Battlefield- he lives forever on this stage and benefits much more from platforms than we do, also doesn't give us that much room to run away from him
Dreamland 64- same principle applies except with a smaller blastzone

Spoiler: MU example

aMSa vs. Ally (old, but it's the best we got)

I don't know much about the MU since the only good Mega Man I've ever played is Peabnut (top 4 on the PR in South Carolina). Along with him and the 2 other Mega Man mains I know, they all have said that this MU is 50:50. Like I said, I don't know very much about this MU, so I'm just going to contribute theoretical stage picks/avoidance (high level MU example couldn't be found).

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Town and City- our best stage, gives us the opportunity to kill Mega Man earlier than usual and overall gives us room to move around

Stage(s) to avoid:
Battlefield- Mega Man is fat and this is one of our worst stages, don't let him take you here

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

So the MM matchup is probably the matchup I know best as in my region a megaman main I have been going back and fourth as #1 and #2 for months.

Lemons are a pain. you can land a shorthop fair if their zoning patterns are predictable. Short hop nair is hard as it can get countered by fair/rar bair/up smash/shorthop upair. Plus you will usually get hit by a lemon before you land the hit. Greninjas standing grab is too slow but you can perfect sheild to jab (difficult but possible to do). If they short hop towards you and nair you can duck under it. If you have a lot of space (on Duck hunt/FD) you can short hop and fire a shuriken right at his head. This is difficult because he's short but it will hit him whether short hopping or standing if you avoid hitting his pellets. Also fully charged water shuriken cuts through lemons but it's difficult to land without gettinf interrupted.

Also shifting shuriken makes the matchup so one sided in greninja's favor it's not even funny

 

[Funkermonster]

I am a Co-player of both the Frog and the Robot , so I'll give my rundown of the MU: While I think this is a mostly fair match for the most part, I believe Mega will have a slightly easier time here than Gren will. This is gonna be quite a long writeup though, I warn you.

Spoiler: Mega Man's advantages

On paper, it seems like Greninja should have the advantage: It takes a fast character to break through good walls, and Greninja has just enough mobility to do that by being the 5th fastest runner, having the 8th highest air speed, and 2nd highest jump. But in spite of all this, his actual attack speed has some of the worst startup in the game which allows Mega Man to challenge a good number of his critical neutral game tools: Greninja usually wants others to approach him via his shurikens, but as they are eaten by lemons if uncharged he is unable to play his normal game and is forced to do the opposite. His Fair, Nair, and Bair are all anti-aired by MM's Fair and Bair, they have similar range but outspeed them. His bad frame data seeps into his OoS options as well, allowing MM to basically dance around him with lemons (Ftilt to Nair is particularly good for him against Greninja) and make his zoning even better than it normally is.

To truly counter lemon pressure, Greninja must commit to a charged shuriken or Fair approaches in hopes of keeping up with MM, and he takes quite a risk in doing so with how they leave him open. Greninja's normally excellent recovery is harassed in this matchup by a simple Metal Blade + Leaf Shield setup to ensure he can't come back onstage without taking bits of damage while in reverse, Gren himself can't really do much to challenge Mega's recovery: Hydro Pump usually only pushes Rush Coil upwards (you could maybe still punish his landings with a smash attack sometimes, but this shouldn't happen more than 3 times out of 10 when he can still mix it up by saving his jump after his UpB), and his air speed and acceleration are too high for shurikens to gimp his distance. Finally, while MM's raw kill moves are pretty poor all around, he does have effective kill confirms with the Metal Blade, and I personally feel they work more easily on Greninja than most, again due to his aforementioned OoS problems. We have Diagonal MB to Up Tilt, MB toss to RAR Bair, and the Kamemushi footstool combo. Even if you manage to catch his MB, you put yourself at a disadvantage by losing access to your normal attacks and you can't really do much with it against MM (as he can simply shoot it out of the air).

Spoiler: Greninja's Advantages

But as said before, I still consider this near-even so Greninja does have his strengths to keep a winning chance. For one, Greninja's got many ways of converting into his various combos for huge damage, including his famous footstools whereas Mega Man's damage output is pathetic around, needing to get a hard read from zdrop MBs or an Uair to get any real significant damage going. Both characters are fast fallers, but this is a bigger issue for MM considering how his combos aren't nearly as great to begin with, his above average weight, and not having a combo breaker like you do with SS hitstun cancelling (which btw, lets you get out of and punish his Dash Attack and renders it near useless in this matchup, though it isn't that good or important of a move for us to start with). Nothing on earth is as annoying in this game as getting pressured to death with lemons and getting 22% off of them, but if you can find your way in past them you could simply surpass or equal all of that with a simple Dtilt > Fsmash or Uthrow > Uair. If Mega Man is in the air, that's great because his landing options aren't particularly safe from his aerials having high landing lag except Nair, which has low priority. A lot of MMs will try to land with Leaf Shield, but even that doesn't get a hitbox until frame 50 and is still beaten by your Uair, Utilt, or Usmash with its puny priority.

Many novice Mega Men might also try to spam rolls with Leaf Shield to get a grab: if they do that, simply anticipate the roll, do a neutral shorthop and Nair in place to beat the leaves outright and hit him. Exasperating his already low damage output, Mega Man has kill confirms but needs a MB to get them, outside of his Bair his raw kill moves are hard to land and just aren't safe at all. Meanwhile, Greninja can setup 50/50s with Shadow Sneak & Smash Attack Baits from his throws and can confirm into his kills in more varied ways (Nair, Dtilt, Full Charge Shuriken, Dair) and as a result, he has more mixup options to keep MM guessing with a less linear advantage state. To fight your way through lemons, Fully Charged Shuriken, Fair, Bair, and onstage Hydro Pumps are commitments but are your friends: Fair can cut through lemons if timed and read well (beware of our own Fair though, as mentioned before), and full charged shurikens are crucial for gaining breathing room and opening a hole in his lemon wall. In the end, fighting through the neutral here is agonizing, but the reward is worth it if you can break through it. As annoying as he is, he simply just doesn't do enough damage to stay all that far ahead.

Overall, I feel this MU is balanced for the most part, but leans a tad closer to Mega Man. Greninja's raw speed alone would seemingly help him bypass MM's zoning, and once he gets inside he could go wild with his combo game and get a far greater reward, but his lackluster OoS options and frame data make it difficult to make effective use of it and enable The Blue Bomber to challenge his normal gameplan and BnB neutral game tools. Since this place uses the :: ratio I'm forced to give it a 45:55 in MM's favor, but I personally prefer the +1/-1 etc. system since 45:55 is basically still even and doesn't really mean a lot. Otherwise I'd give it a 0. Just don't take him to battlefield or play above him (lest you be juggled to hell with his Air Shooter/Up Air) on platforms, and this should be a tough but doable battle.

45:55 or 0 is my vote

Some (who's been making good results in Japan lately iirc) also lists Mega Man as a -1 MU for Gren on his Twitter MU chartand the 2nd best MM, ScAtt puts Greninja at 55:45 in MM's favor too, so make what you will of that.

On a side note:

Also shifting shuriken makes the matchup so one sided in greninja's favor it's not even funny

With all due respect, I will heavily disagree with this because..

Spoiler

If anything, I would say shifting actually makes it worse: Because now with shifting's transcendent priority, it will go through MM's projectiles but it does not stop them. Sure it can go through lemons and punish a MM who always does the standing 3 (which is easily the worst use of the move), but now that means he can freely use Metal Blade as much as he likes to. Not to mention the endlag on this thing is MASSIVE. As long as MM has a metal blade in hand or alternates between 1-2 lemons at a time, he should have little to no problems punishing you for it. Shifting S. properties want to make it an offensive tool but its horrendous lag doesn't make it possible, its just not safe at all. Also, Mega Man himself gets a much better custom than that in Danger Wrap: which gives him a much loved boost in kill power + damage output while acting as a projectile that can anti-air, punish high recoveries, and cover your air dodges, it's great. We also good other good customs in Plant Barrier, Tornado Hold, and pretty much everything except Shadow Blade (though each one is debatable), where Gren's customs in general do very little to change his gameplan.

But above all, even if that was true, customs have long since been dead for a year now and aren't coming back anytime soon, if ever at all. And so they are therefore irrelevant.

Will put my thoughts on soon, but for now today's gonna be a busy day so I gotta get through it all first and come back later.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yoo heads up, Kameme changed greninja to a +1 for Megaman to an even match up, just sayin'

 

[Y2Kay]

Well guys, Sensei Libz has handed the job of running this thread to me for a little while, just so you know.

Session 4 begins with Robin and Fox
​

I plan to begin Session 5 by next Monday, so start posting! ◥θ┴θ◤

 

[Lawliet626]

Alright so , oh dear robin...
Let me start off saying right off the bat the most greninjas (including myself) think wins this match up 55:45 and lots of robin mains think the same (except the EXTREMELY optimistic ones) who say they win cuz of jab (lol)
Alright so back to discussion, Greninja has to obviously approach in this match up in which he has no trouble at all due to his amazing speed, and robin can play his/her game walling out
Robin has the tools to wall out greninja, and greninja has no trouble getting in, Robin can stop our approaches with his proyectiles and his fair and jab, greninja can use his mobility to create some nice opening and get some nice combos in
Once the frog gets on robin, its pretty tough for the tactician since we can get a lot of reward off it, his disadvantage stage is pretty bad, and he also has a lot of trouble landing, and is kinda eh offstage, Robin can use his aerial to catch you off guard by the ledge and can also catch off guard with elwind if you get kinda greedy juggling and aren't careful.
To my knowledge, Robin will only use thoron to catch your landings from afar.
Speaking of which, He can't micro charge his thunder spells (This basically means he cant charge his spells bit by bit like lucario or samus do), he NEEDS to charge like 2-3 seconds uninterrupted to go from one thunder spell into its upgraded version ( Thunder, elthunder, arcthunder, thoron) so you can harass with shurikens to prevent him from charging it. I think you can shadow sneak cancel out of arcfire but don't get too predictable or he might punish you for it, and iirc, we can also duck all of his thunder spells. Be wary of his item play, since that dropped tomes/ swords can deal 8%-13%. Although his grab range isn't great avoid shielding and getting grabbed around 110%-130% cause that'll be a checkmate for him. If you get a read and know hes gonna throw out arcfire, you can shadow sneak through it and punish his endlag.
Edgeguarding wise, Robin has arcfire for the ledge and for offstage and his thunder spells which are pretty good, Levin sword moves to cover get up options, We have shuriken, hydro pump and back air, plus we can mix up our recovery much better than he/she can plus we can also just play the offstage game till robin runs out of elwind. So i'd say we win at edgeguarding by a small margin.
Stagewise......Please avoid battlefield, I can't stretch this enough, Robin controls space better there, has aerials that can cover an entire platform, and has much more options to land there.....i'm not entirely sure about dreamland though.

Overall impressions, Robin can wall out pretty well, but greninja has the speed and can capitalize very well on all of Robin's weaknesses (Landing, disadvantage and offstage), plus opportunities that can open up due to robins limited move usage.
Pick stages that give robin the least amount of space to land, wall out and breath (*cough* battlefield *cough*)
Again, 55:45 's favor

 

[SEXYGOAT]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On the vs MU, i think that it's 45:55 for us. Both can combo each other well and rack up damage easily, but fox has an easier time doing it and has even better ground speed and fastfall so he can juggle us better. I dont find shurikens to be as effective on fast characters like fox since they have a decent amount of lag and if he gets in and powershields one, he can get a dash attack or something. We can SSHC out of Utilts but i wouldn't recommend it unless the is a platform above the frog that might make him SS onto it. If we just SS out and land on the main se he can just catch us with more Utilts or dash attack and then get Uairs too. Also Nair > footstool combos wont work until around 15-20% with no rage

Fox is most vulnerable offstage. If we get him offstage we can get his side b with hydro pump if timed well and then we can hydro his firefox even easier. going off for Bairs is pretty gud too. The frog should focus on getting fox offstage mostly imo

Although T&C is very good for fox, i sometimes like to go to it in this MU because Uthrow Uair can become a true kill setup for us at around 80%. Battlefield and dreamland are probs the worst stage to go to vs fox due to his amazing juggle game and Uair. Duck hunt is alright since there is a lot of space for both chars to move around. Same with FD. Smashville is a bit smaller so both characters can have an easier time getting in and we can SSHC onto the moving platform if it comes

I think 45:55 for us because although we both have quick combos and ways to rack up damage, fox has an easier time doing it due to better speed and fastfall. Shurikens aren't as useful in the MU either

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hi. I've played FullMoon and Gibus quite a bit, the latter of whom I have yet to drop a set to. So I think I can say I have knowledge on how things go in this MU.

Robin's Jab is not the end-all be-all that some would say, but it still is very useful, because it forces Greninja to come in with just one attack: a max spaced Fair. Near anything else loses to the Jab.
Nair? Jab.
Bair? Jab.
A Shadow Sneak off a Jab? Jab 2 it.

Because of that, Greninja's approach options can be a bit constrained. If the Greninja tries to to space the Fair by using a full hop fastfall, Robin has acknowledged it and has his shield up and ready, if not already jumped up and Levin Fair'd you for it. So be very mindful on how you approach Robin.

Good thing for Greninja, then, that Fire Jab is absolutely useless on him. He can SSHC straight out of it. If Robin wants to get meaningful damage off Jab conversions he will have to use his rapid Jab Wind variant and use up a bit of Elwind recovery. "Can't Greninja SSHC out of that one for free though?", I hear you ask. Well, in previous patches, yes he could. Now, however, the Jab 2 knockback buff made it so that Greninja pops too high for an immediate SS counter; if Greninja SS's now, he'll end up too high, and fall right back into the rapid Jab to take more damage. Your best bet is to DI out and away as other characters would.

Robin has a prolonged advantage state, but his means of getting there have commitment to them. While your moves will lose to Jab, your shield doesn't. Jab 1's got a heavy 25+ endlag commitment if he doesn't segue into Jab 2, and that's plenty of time for Greninja to rush up, shield Jab 1, and poke with Dtilt (which Usmash combos into unless Robin's DI game is super on point!) or Jab and get things started. Neutral just becomes a series of 50/50 guessing games on what the Robin and Greninja decide to do. Stay grounded, use your shield well, and pick your battles.

Robin's main spacing tool is definitely Levin Fair, and I don't think Greninja has anything that outranges it. Always respect this tool, from SH, from the ground, from landing, everywhere. 13% fresh and combos into itself, the damage will start to rack up fast if you get complacent. And that's especially troubling with Robin's grab kill confirm. Greninja falls so fast that the % ranges for Checkmate span quite a ways; I've gotten it to work at 90, and work just as well at 120. Arcthunder will guarantee a grab for this, which Greninja can duck under (don't crawl though!), but it doesn't help when Greninja's trying to land, or approach, or come from the ledge, which a well placed Arcfire will force you to act and get off that ledge. If Greninja can keep himself safe from 125 and up, the grab confirm no longer works, but at that point, many other things in Robin's kit will seal it up. Problem there is that the moves are all gonna require a read. Bthrow is an acceptable stock cap at 160 with no rage, Fire Jab would be an incredible stock cap if SSHC didn't nullify it (so don't be afraid of this move close up at high percents!). All of the Levin hits will easily kill at high percents, but with no setups into them, it's gonna be all on the Greninja to mess up with his high mobility to get a hit to connect.

And really, that mobility is what keeps Greninja threatening in this matchup. Robin doesn't really care for Shuriken potshot damage- anything to get Levin Fair roided up and ready to kill fresh at 95 at high rage off a bad misspace is fine by me (Robin can short hop over a high-max charge Shuriken and smack Greninja with Levin Fair in the endlag at anywhere less than max range, btw), but Greninja's pure speed keeps the pressure up while also keeping himself safe from Robin's kit. Just dancing around at mid range with a steady shield propping can make anything Robin does feel like a marital engagement. And again, a max space Fair will outrange Robin on the ground, so Greninja does get rewarded for using his speed and getting his shots aligned correctly. I find Greninja tomahawking to be especially problematic: if he comes in with a move, I'll likely win, but if he just drops down right in front of Jab and blocks, then this is gonna hurt, especially if Greninja successfully grabs from it and unleashes KO grab combos of his own.




Robin has the defense necessary to make Greninja struggle to find himself in, and the kill power needed to make the number of successful blocks and turnarounds needed to KO minimal, but Greninja's speed and mixups can make his own conversions hurt just as hard, provided his shield game is potent and he respects Levin Fair. This is a matchup where Greninja needs to find ways to wallbreak as well as he plays footsies.

50:50

 

[FullMoon]

Hi. I've played FullMoon and Gibus quite a bit, the latter of whom I have yet to drop a set to. So I think I can say I have knowledge on how things go in this MU.

Robin's Jab is not the end-all be-all that some would say, but it still is very useful, because it forces Greninja to come in with just one attack: a max spaced Fair. Near anything else loses to the Jab.
Nair? Jab.
Bair? Jab.
A Shadow Sneak off a Jab? Jab 2 it.

Because of that, Greninja's approach options can be a bit constrained. If the Greninja tries to to space the Fair by using a full hop fastfall, Robin has acknowledged it and has his shield up and ready, if not already jumped up and Levin Fair'd you for it. So be very mindful on how you approach Robin.

Good thing for Greninja, then, that Fire Jab is absolutely useless on him. He can SSHC straight out of it. If Robin wants to get meaningful damage off Jab conversions he will have to use his rapid Jab Wind variant and use up a bit of Elwind recovery. "Can't Greninja SSHC out of that one for free though?", I hear you ask. Well, in previous patches, yes he could. Now, however, the Jab 2 knockback buff made it so that Greninja pops too high for an immediate SS counter; if Greninja SS's now, he'll end up too high, and fall right back into the rapid Jab to take more damage. Your best bet is to DI out and away as other characters would.

Robin has a prolonged advantage state, but his means of getting there have commitment to them. While your moves will lose to Jab, your shield doesn't. Jab 1's got a heavy 25+ endlag commitment if he doesn't segue into Jab 2, and that's plenty of time for Greninja to rush up, shield Jab 1, and poke with Dtilt (which Usmash combos into unless Robin's DI game is super on point!) or Jab and get things started. Neutral just becomes a series of 50/50 guessing games on what the Robin and Greninja decide to do. Stay grounded, use your shield well, and pick your battles.

Robin's main spacing tool is definitely Levin Fair, and I don't think Greninja has anything that outranges it. Always respect this tool, from SH, from the ground, from landing, everywhere. 13% fresh and combos into itself, the damage will start to rack up fast if you get complacent. And that's especially troubling with Robin's grab kill confirm. Greninja falls so fast that the % ranges for Checkmate span quite a ways; I've gotten it to work at 90, and work just as well at 120. Arcthunder will guarantee a grab for this, which Greninja can duck under (don't crawl though!), but it doesn't help when Greninja's trying to land, or approach, or come from the ledge, which a well placed Arcfire will force you to act and get off that ledge. If Greninja can keep himself safe from 125 and up, the grab confirm no longer works, but at that point, many other things in Robin's kit will seal it up. Problem there is that the moves are all gonna require a read. Bthrow is an acceptable stock cap at 160 with no rage, Fire Jab would be an incredible stock cap if SSHC didn't nullify it (so don't be afraid of this move close up at high percents!). All of the Levin hits will easily kill at high percents, but with no setups into them, it's gonna be all on the Greninja to mess up with his high mobility to get a hit to connect.

And really, that mobility is what keeps Greninja threatening in this matchup. Robin doesn't really care for Shuriken potshot damage- anything to get Levin Fair roided up and ready to kill fresh at 95 at high rage off a bad misspace is fine by me (Robin can short hop over a high-max charge Shuriken and smack Greninja with Levin Fair in the endlag at anywhere less than max range, btw), but Greninja's pure speed keeps the pressure up while also keeping himself safe from Robin's kit. Just dancing around at mid range with a steady shield propping can make anything Robin does feel like a marital engagement. And again, a max space Fair will outrange Robin on the ground, so Greninja does get rewarded for using his speed and getting his shots aligned correctly. I find Greninja tomahawking to be especially problematic: if he comes in with a move, I'll likely win, but if he just drops down right in front of Jab and blocks, then this is gonna hurt, especially if Greninja successfully grabs from it and unleashes KO grab combos of his own.




Robin has the defense necessary to make Greninja struggle to find himself in, and the kill power needed to make the number of successful blocks and turnarounds needed to KO minimal, but Greninja's speed and mixups can make his own conversions hurt just as hard, provided his shield game is potent and he respects Levin Fair. This is a matchup where Greninja needs to find ways to wallbreak, not play footsies in.

50:50

Boy it has been a long time since we last tried playing each other lol

I think most of what you said is right from what I remember. Greninja/Robin isn't a MU that is seen very often so it's hard to get good data on it, but everything you said seems to be accurate.

Robin's kill power is really strong on indivual moves while Greninja usually kills at higher percentages with a combo into F-Air or Smashes so the MU is a real damage race between the two of them and can be really volatile.

I find it odd that you didn't mention edgeguarding at all though, Hydro Pump can mess Elwind really badly if it connects because even if Robin doesn't fall to his death, he's probably gonna rocket upwards and leave himself as easy prey for a Smash while I don't think Robin can do much to edgeguard Greninja other than trying to snipe him with Thoron or Elthunder.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I didn't mention Hydro Pump edgeguarding because I can't even recall the last time a Greninja's done that to me, so I can't really comment as much on where Robin goes depending on Hydro Pump angles. I toss out a Thunder spell in front of me as I come in close to force Greninja to move a certain way, go in low, and then Elwind right up, and I typically come out fine.

As for Robin edgeguarding Greninja, it's less "what can Robin do to make him getting to the ledge an issue" and more "where can Robin direct his Fair for maximum profit." Robin's not absolutely starving for ways to kill Greninja, so any damage given while the frog's offstage is a time not wasted.

 

[Illusion.]

I think everyone can agree that this MU is 45:55 so I won't really be going into too much detail like every other MU. He combos us extremely hard due to our fast-falling nature and poor disadvantaged state, his infamous Uair chain is especially damaging to us. He has numerous kill confirms that we have to look out for such as weak Nair > Usmash, Dair > Usmash, Utilt > Uair/Bair, and Dash attack > Uair (correct me if I'm wrong about this being true or not). His ground mobility is superior to ours, though not by much. His offstage game is relatively bad, and it's a saving grace for us when we put him in an edgeguard situation, but you have to be careful about falling Fair > footstool since our recovery lacks a hitbox. Something else we have to look out for is that his Utilt can 2-frame us, and it will lead to a Bair that can kill if our % percent is high enough.

He suffers the same issue as us in being a fast-faller, but he's really light while we're medium weight, so he will die sooner. If you can get him in the air, try to juggle him for as long as possible, but keep in mind that he can use his side special to find a different place to land. Unfortunately, strong Nair > footstool is not practical on him at all, so don't even bother going for it. The usual confirms (Dtilt > JC Usmash, Utilt > Uair, and weak Nair > Usmash) will work on him, though the third one will be harder to hit since it's frame 14-16 and only very few of his moves have enough endlag to punish with that. The best part about his character structure (light and fast-faller) is that he's vulnerable to rare kill setups from Uthrow such as this and this with the assistance of platforms (though I think you need rage for this one to be true, and you need to time your landing after the Uair correctly so that you don't suffer any landing lag). When he gets offstage, capitalize on it as much as you possibly can because getting early stocks from an edgeguard can be crucial. Use Hydro Pump to mess up both of his movement specials, or Dair his Fire Fox if you're feeling ballsy.

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Smashville- we kill earlier off the sides than he does and has enough room for us to play footsies

Stage(s) to avoid:
Battlefield- not only do we dislike this stage, but this is one of Fox's best stages and helps him extend his Uair chains

Spoiler: MU example

iStudying vs. C.R.Z.

After having played Jerm a few times and even extensively talking about this MU with Johan on Discord, I can see this MU being 50:50. Johan basically said what I was going to, so I'll only be talking about stages (MU example does not exist... yeah, I know).

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Duck Hunt- gives us the option of playing really lame against them since their mobility is really poor

Stage(s) to avoid:
Battlefield- while it gives them less room to zone us, it bigger blastzones means they can potentially live longer and rage Robin is not what you want

 

[Y2Kay]

Good turn out for the Robin match up guys! I'd like to hear a few more thoughts on the Fox match up before we move on to the next week.

 

[Y2Kay]

Make sure to like posts with view point's that you agree with guys. If the match up is heavily disputed, I'll look at those to decide which one gets put on the Match up Chart.

45:55

50:50

Session 5: &
​

 

[Flamegeyser]

Bayo probably goes even with Greninja or wins slightly. Greninja has a solid grab game, a low profile, fast movement speed, strong combos, and the ability to escape her combos with shadow sneak, but can get spaced pretty hard, gimped with not much trouble, and punished for making an incorrect read, on top of Bayo being practically ungimpable herself.

 

[Luco]

Dunno if you guys have had any high level Grens vs high level Bayos in the US, but just a week back we had our major in Australia and Waveguider's Greninja had at least a game or two vs Ghost's Bayo so if you're interested I'll dig that up.

I also played Wave recently using Ness, and I'm waiting on uploads there before giving my full input. Both of these characters mess each other up hard offstage, and both wreak a level of havok in advantage generally vs one another. Neutral is slow going but Greninja forces the approach so Ness has to try and find a way in without getting grabbed or Faired. Fun MU, will give more input soon. <3