Mastering and uses for a few basic principles

[Trig417]

Hi everyone, new to the smash boards.

I've been playing super smash brothers melee for 5 months now (i played alot before but never thought about taking off items ). I've been playing with a few of my friends the past few months who are extremley good. All 6 are extremely talented, 4 can wavedash extremely well, and all can (l-cancel?).

I'm having a few problems playing a few of them.

First off as a little background, i'm a total video game junkie. Been playing them since I was 1, my older brother (6 years older) has dominated me at video games my whole life but I always get to play someone better, making me better, so I view it as a plus. I'm very good at observing my enemy, and learning what it is they're doing to beat me.

With Smash i'm having some problems though.

First is a problem with Marth. I have become very proficient at wavedashing, and can do it back and forth fairly well. I can dash in, and out, making him swing and scaring him, but he always seems to get me eventually. I actually do stand a chance on final destination (The plain flat level) but on the levels with platforms (the plain one with just 3 little platforms) I get owned by his sword. He just hits me up and destroys me while i'm on the platform, and can't do anything about it.

Also once he gets me to the edge, its over. Usually i'll go flying, jump, forward b, up b and land on the edge. from there he either charges up a smash (not sure which) and knocks me off, or I press back and fall off, then try and up and kachop him (thats what we call luigi's forward smash). This player does not wavedash.

Second is a problem with Fox. This problem is not as complicated with the marth problem, is I can't, or rarely can, cope with his fluid fast attacks. I realize I have to attack where I think he's going to be, but I always end up standing still, making myself even more vulnerable.

Third, Samus's range on his kicks and smashes always owns me, and his projectiles **** me.

Fourth, i've been shown l-cancelling before, and i'm not exactly sure what its used for. All they ever tell me though, is its one of the most key moves in the game, they even tell me its more critical than wavedashing. In what situations, particularly against these characters above, can I use l-cancelling to farther progress my efficiency with luigi?

I have used the search function for all my questions, these are the ones that remain.

Thanks very much for the help. :-D

 

[angelsandairwaveslee]

1.2 words
C STICK

 

[Lixivium]

First is a problem with Marth. I have become very proficient at wavedashing, and can do it back and forth fairly well. I can dash in, and out, making him swing and scaring him, but he always seems to get me eventually. I actually do stand a chance on final destination (The plain flat level) but on the levels with platforms (the plain one with just 3 little platforms) I get owned by his sword. He just hits me up and destroys me while i'm on the platform, and can't do anything about it.

I'm just going to say it: Marth is one of Luigi's hardest matchups; at your level it's going to be very hard to overcome it. (Nothing personal, but you are a beginner if you don't know what L-cancelling is)

The only concrete advice we can give you right now is to STAY OFF THE PLATFORMS. When you are on a platform and Marth is below you, he can hit you, but you can't hit him. So don't put yourself in that situation. If you end up on a platform and he moves beneath you, shield or jump/wavedash away from him and approach him from the same level.

Also once he gets me to the edge, its over. Usually i'll go flying, jump, forward b, up b and land on the edge. from there he either charges up a smash (not sure which) and knocks me off, or I press back and fall off, then try and up and kachop him (thats what we call luigi's forward smash). This player does not wavedash.

The canonical Luigi recovery is repeated missiles, tornado (if necessary), jump, airdodge/Up-B and sweetspot. At some point you're going to have to learn other ways of getting back on than just ledgehopped chops (which is the F-air, not the F-smash). It may not mean much to you right now, but you can also do the following on the ledge: stalling, ledge attack, ledgedash, rolling, and ledgehopped tornadoes. The more way you have of recovering the harder it will be for him to edgeguard you.

Second is a problem with Fox. This problem is not as complicated with the marth problem, is I can't, or rarely can, cope with his fluid fast attacks. I realize I have to attack where I think he's going to be, but I always end up standing still, making myself even more vulnerable.

Not sure what you're asking for. If you think you're standing still too much, then learn to be more maneuverable with combinations of dashes, wavedashes, and platform wavedashes. Since Fox is such an aggressive character you'll have to learn to play a little defense. Work on your shield game and shieldgrabbing, doing aerials out of the shield, and wavedashes out of the shield.

Third, Samus's range on his kicks and smashes always owns me, and his projectiles **** me.

Samus is a SHE. She is also one of Luigi's toughest matchups and there are no easy strategies for beating her, except for this: don't play on Final Destination or Dreamland 64. You won't be able to kill her. Again, you just have to be smart about getting around the missiles, especially if she's cancelling them. I'm almost certain you can F-tilt or tornado through them. Jump over them if you must, but be prepared to challenge her in the air.

Fourth, i've been shown l-cancelling before, and i'm not exactly sure what its used for. All they ever tell me though, is its one of the most key moves in the game, they even tell me its more critical than wavedashing. In what situations, particularly against these characters above, can I use l-cancelling to farther progress my efficiency with luigi?

If you've ever seen videos of Foxes, Falcos, or Falcons and wondered how they can attack so dang fast, it's because they're L-cancelling every single aerial.

L-cancelling IS more critical than wavedashing to every other character in the game besides Luigi. Luigi's aerials (except for the N-air) are so quick they're over long before he lands, thus you don't need to L-cancel if you aerial at the start of your jump. However, if you're going to use the N-air, or you aerial near the ground, then you need to L-cancel when you land (it's almost always a good idea, just to get into the habit).

 

[Trig417]

I'm just going to say it: Marth is one of Luigi's hardest matchups; at your level it's going to be very hard to overcome it. (Nothing personal, but you are a beginner if you don't know what L-cancelling is)

The only concrete advice we can give you right now is to STAY OFF THE PLATFORMS. When you are on a platform and Marth is below you, he can hit you, but you can't hit him. So don't put yourself in that situation. If you end up on a platform and he moves beneath you, shield or jump/wavedash away from him and approach him from the same level.

The canonical Luigi recovery is repeated missiles, tornado (if necessary), jump, airdodge/Up-B and sweetspot. At some point you're going to have to learn other ways of getting back on than just ledgehopped chops (which is the F-air, not the F-smash). It may not mean much to you right now, but you can also do the following on the ledge: stalling, ledge attack, ledgedash, rolling, and ledgehopped tornadoes. The more way you have of recovering the harder it will be for him to edgeguard you.

Not sure what you're asking for. If you think you're standing still too much, then learn to be more maneuverable with combinations of dashes, wavedashes, and platform wavedashes. Since Fox is such an aggressive character you'll have to learn to play a little defense. Work on your shield game and shieldgrabbing, doing aerials out of the shield, and wavedashes out of the shield.

Samus is a SHE. She is also one of Luigi's toughest matchups and there are no easy strategies for beating her, except for this: don't play on Final Destination or Dreamland 64. You won't be able to kill her. Again, you just have to be smart about getting around the missiles, especially if she's cancelling them. I'm almost certain you can F-tilt or tornado through them. Jump over them if you must, but be prepared to challenge her in the air.

If you've ever seen videos of Foxes, Falcos, or Falcons and wondered how they can attack so dang fast, it's because they're L-cancelling every single aerial.

L-cancelling IS more critical than wavedashing to every other character in the game besides Luigi. Luigi's aerials (except for the N-air) are so quick they're over long before he lands, thus you don't need to L-cancel if you aerial at the start of your jump. However, if you're going to use the N-air, or you aerial near the ground, then you need to L-cancel when you land (it's almost always a good idea, just to get into the habit).

Thanks, i'll try and carry some of that over.

I know samus is a she, but its a dude who plays him, and he's a **** about it

What exactly does L-cancel do? Just not make me as vulnerable?

 

[Lixivium]

What exactly does L-cancel do? Just not make me as vulnerable?

L-cancelling halves the amount of lag from an aerial after you land.

Let's say you jump and try to hit someone with Luigi's N-air. Once Luigi lands, notice he can't do ANYTHING for about half a second. This is the landing lag from the aerial. By L-cancelling it, you're stuck in that lag for only half the amount of time, allowing you to shield (if you missed) or follow up with another attack (if you hit) that you couldn't do otherwise.

Watch some videos of people playing fastfallers (Fox, Falco, Falcon). Now try to play those characters. If you notice other people seem to be moving twice as fast as you, it's because you're not L-cancelling.

 

[TobiasXK]

If you're getting stuck on platforms, you can try jumping, waveland, lightshielding or quartercircle forward-down to drop through.

 

[WeedLuigi]

I found wavelanding and wavedashing out of my shield were the hardest techniques to learn, I dunno if that is the same for u, but if it is u might have to practice those two techniques more than the others, these techniques always look cool when executed.

 

[El HP]

Mindgames are essential if you want to play as luigi try creating your own mindgames so you can avoid being predictable.

 

[full_95]

Mindgames are essential if you want to play as luigi try creating your own mindgames so you can avoid being predictable.

if he doesnt know what L-cancelling is, than this is a pretty useless piece of advice.

just to further the L-cancel description, like Lixivium said, the L cancel allows you to either shield or attack right after you land. in order to attack out of an L cancel you have to press R or L (whichever shield button you use) right before you land, but tap R/L at the same speed that you do for wavedashing so your shield wont come up. this allows you to jump, smash, tilt right after you land. to shield, you just hold the R/L button right after you land and the shield will come up immediately. from this you can either arial (by jumping out of your shield) or shield grab or up B if youre really crazy.

as far as mindgames go, it's hard to explain them cuz its kind of an abstract technique. think about it this way, you want to use misdirection and fake your opponent into thinking your going to be in one place, but then end up somewhere else so they whiff an attack. a real world example of this is a runningback in football, the jukes and **** they use are real world mindgames, so think of that if you are having trouble understanding what they are. a smash example of mindgames (a misdirection i use against my buddy's marth) you WD in so your within tipper range, (my buddy always uses Fsmash) and then immediately WD backwards. for me, the dude always uses Fsmash so after i WD out of range he Fsmashes and leaves himself wide open for a WD-->Dsmash approach, or any other approach (which is generally another WD toward him with an attack/grab).

in general, i highly recommend learning as many approaches as you can and implement them all into your game so you dont become predictable (this is especially true against a competent smasher, unlike the saps i play with who fall for the same **** over and over again). the WD-->Dsmash approach, in particular, is phenominal (WD, and tap the Cstick down as you get within range) and should definitely be a mainstay in your game. also a really good approach when at higher percents (~60% and up) is WD-->Ftilt cuz its very fast and you can cover huge distance with luigis WD making it very tough to predict. and another good approach is shield WD (hold the R/L button after you WD so your shield is up as you slide toward them)-->shield grab. after you grab, the Dthrow is prolly your best bet against floaty chars and a lot of the time you can get a SH Dair in at lower percents.

I also recommend (if you dont know already) learning how to short hop, and then learn how to do multiple arials within one short hop. you can do almost all of luigis arials twice in one short hop (Bair, Fair, Uair, Dair if your fast enough). this really messes with people cuz he has so much flexibility in the air. as you get more comfortable with the time that each arial is out, you can also implement SH arials into a waveland to stay close to your opponent or retreat after an arial.

Watch Ka-master's combo vid, The Green-ish Machine, it's freakin awsome and will really help you understand some of the stuff i attempted to explain here.

i know i didnt answer all your questions, but i hope some of that helps.

 

[Micheloxx]

man vs marth, u got problems because of marths recuperation and range man, for second place, u dont have good long ranges attk, try to shield grab..

For fox, try to start hitting him with a d-smash so u start a combo or chain grab., that works pretty well with fast fallers like fox..

for samus, dam, sex kick or b-air..

mmmm, l canceling is good in situations like when ur getting combo, u have to l cancel to the place that he dont even imagine ull roll, so.. or maybe to press it and dont be in the floor after falco`s d-air..

 

[Trig417]

Ahh with the advice you guys have given me i have now taken my smash game to a whole new level, I now have wavedashing down to a science, I dominate all my marth friends (i can aproach them several different ways) and while they get the ocasional noob luck, I generally always win (95% of the time).

But now i'm faced with a new problem. I do not have any comptent people to smash with anymore, so i'm preparing to hit up a few local tournaments (i'm sure theres gotta be tons in Los angeles)

My problems with fox samus and marth are solved but i have a few questions.

1. What exactly is wavelanding?

2.

learn how to do multiple arials within one short hop. you can do almost all of luigis arials twice in one short hop (Bair, Fair, Uair, Dair if your fast enough). this really messes with people cuz he has so much flexibility in the air

-This sounds like a really sick technique, but how to pull it off?

3. While I can deal with fox and falco, i'm having a bit of trouble vs pikachu (pesky little rodent). Although i am getting better, i only win about 50-60% of the time, which to me is a problem, what strats/techinques work well against pikachu?

4. Can anyone link me to some videos of very talented pro luigi players? I searched youtube and the video forums, but nothing really caught my eye. Any videos that are out of this world spectacular and a must watch for any luigi player?

Oh and ty guys very much for the help :-D

EDIT:i didn't catch this before while reading too quickly.

It may not mean much to you right now, but you can also do the following on the ledge: stalling, ledge attack, ledgedash, rolling, and ledgehopped tornadoes. The more way you have of recovering the harder it will be for him to edgeguard you.

Could I get an explanation?

 

[Lixivium]

Ahh with the advice you guys have given me i have now taken my smash game to a whole new level, I now have wavedashing down to a science, I dominate all my marth friends (i can aproach them several different ways) and while they get the ocasional noob luck, I generally always win (95% of the time).

Good to hear it.

First of all, watch ppa0's Luigi guide video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK4K556f4TI

It will answer a lot of your questions. At the end of the video he does platform wavedashing, which isn't included in the actual tutorial. It's just jumping through a platform from underneath and wavelanding as you're right above the platform.

3. While I can deal with fox and falco, i'm having a bit of trouble vs pikachu (pesky little rodent). Although i am getting better, i only win about 50-60% of the time, which to me is a problem, what strats/techinques work well against pikachu?

I play a very good Pikachu (Zig-Zag) and here are some of tips off the top of my head:

- If you're getting D-smashed a lot, remember to DI upwards.
- Respect the Up-smash; don't jump into his face from the front unless he's lagging.
- Pikachus like to do lots of Up-air chains -> Thunder (Down-B). Mix up your DI and jump or airdodge sideways, if possible, when you see him do the Thunder animation.
- If you get tailspiked off the edge, don't panic. If you're above the edge, try to just grab it. What you don't want to do is recklessly jump into an easy edgeguard.
- In general, avoid being above Pikachu. Up-air pretty much goes through all your aerials if he spaces it right.

If you listed some specific tactics the Pikachu used against you, that would help us help you.

4. Can anyone link me to some videos of very talented pro luigi players? I searched youtube and the video forums, but nothing really caught my eye. Any videos that are out of this world spectacular and a must watch for any luigi player?

Go to the Luigi video omnibus topic and look for videos of
Azen, Ka-Master, ppa0, Ultra Luigi, ROFL, Drephen, TobiasXK
You can look at other videos of course, but these guys know what they're doing. You can clearly see some different styles of playing and see if you can learn a thing or two.

Could I get an explanation?

Stalling - letting go of the edge, dropping down, then jumping back up to grab the ledge again to regain your invincibility. The important thing is to drop to the right height so that a second jump just reaches the edge. (Don't poke your head above the edge while doing this.

Ledge attack - pushing A on the ledge. Don't do it above 100%.

Ledgedash - letting go of the ledge, jumping onstage, then wavelanding immediately. A relatively safe way of getting back on.

Rolling - pushing L/R on the ledge. Don't do it above 100%.

Ledgehopped tornadoes - letting go of the ledge, jumping onstage, then tornadoing immediately. Be sure your feet are actually above ground or you will plummet to your doom.


These are just terms; you will have learn to when to use these tactics.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I don't even need to be posting here. The Luigi boards are so amazingly helpful that I think you already know all you need to know. Just thought I'd share this tidbit of information anyways.

Wavelanding+platforms=infinitely useful. Use it to confuse your opponents, land aerials, camp, etc. Okay, I'm done. Good luck!

LUIGI FTW

 

[Trig417]

I'm finding wavelanding on the platforms is confusing the crap out of a bunch of my friends, who are usually looking for me to drop straight down off of them and wavedash in circles around them, i've found yet another way to confuse them.

I've been wondering about effective approaches? I use the wavedash downsmash a bit too often, and also the wavedash upsmash, any other I should know of?

I'm going to be getting my capture card back from my friend this weekend, and i will post some videos of my matches.

 

[NES n00b]

Wavedash to jab to (put grab, downsmash, upsmash, down air, or even down b here) is a good approach. Also, you can use ftilt for long distance poking. Another solid approach is wavedashing to short hopped fair or bair (depending on which way you are facing). If the fair or bair missed or was sheilded, you can do another arial or you can waveland.

My most favorite approach besides down smash is using down b. Note that it should only be used as a random approach from the usual downsmash/jab approaches. Down b has uses for comboing, is fast, and has pretty good priority (I think so).

Use a mixture of these approaches along with empty short hopped arials, wavelands, wave dash trixies like pulse walking and foxtroting, you will be able to keep your friends guessing pretty good.

Edit because wall of text >.<

 

[Trig417]

Today I just got rocked by a marth player who said he frequents and wins tournaments (I don't know if he was telling the truth) but he was very good.

I lost 2/3 (although it felt like he was not out of my league, and i should have won the last game but got hit by the lasers on Croneria which sealed it for him)

How do I control the DI of luigi? Also I still find myself being (for lack of a better word) screwed once he can get me off the level, as it feels like i'm nothing but an oversized baseball for his sword.

And what exactly is DI? I understand its directional influence and the direction your character goes in after he gets hit and blah blah blah.....but I never really understood the concept of controlling it?

TY very much for the help guys.

 

[Lixivium]

Guide to DI:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

As far as Marth goes, if he's already standing by the ledge waiting for you, don't recover from above the stage unless you're planning to airdodge somehow. Missile below the stage, tornado if necessary, and try to sweetspot the ledge. While you're Up-B'ing, hold the control stick diagonally up and towards the stage, and hold L/R to tech in case you get hit.

It's a lot of work, but it's what you have to do to recover against Marth.

 

[Impact009]

I find it really funny that the players who you originally said played "extremely well and talented" became cake for you after a few weeks. Glad to see that you're getting a lot better.

 

[Gea]

If you're getting stuck on platforms, you can try jumping, waveland, lightshielding or quartercircle forward-down to drop through.

Hush up you. You don't even play anymore.

Edit: Oh, nevermind, we see tomorrow if he does.

 

[nublet06]

Hush up you. You don't even play anymore.

Edit: Oh, nevermind, we see tomorrow if he does.

go back to the doc specific.

 

[Gea]

go back to the doc specific.

Whatever man, I play Luigi as well. And Tobias got his *** handed to him today.

Oh yeah, and reverse pings are apparently possible.