Mashing: the game mechanic

[Ace55]

This thread is meant to discuss the cons and pros of the mashing mechanic in smash games (but specifically PM). This means both mashing to get out of grabs, stun, etc and the mashing of certain B moves required for additional height. It is not meant to be about the button mashing your little brother does. Since we have a chance to change this, in my opinion, redundant mechanic I would like to hear people's opinion on the matter.

What is mashing? It's simply pressing one (or more) buttons as fast as you can. It's a cheap game mechanic typically used when designers are too lazy to come up with something original. And while I acknowledge some people are better at it than others I truly feel it is a brainless mechanic with very little depth.

As I see it there would be multiple upsides to removing mashing as a mechanic:

Controllers will be spared. Nintendo is kind of throwing us a bone I guess with the WiiU GC controllers but let's face it, we play with old controllers from an old system. Controllers are getting more expensive and if Melee/PM keeps growing eventually a shortage could occur.

It would remove a pointless tech barrier. Why would you have to try to murder your B-button just so Mario/Luigi/MK get a boost from their tornadoes? Why is your proficiency at escaping grabs determined by how good you are at spazzing out on your controller? It could possibly also help reduce RSI caused by the game.

Now bear with me, I'm not proposing just removing it completely and having people jab you 20 times every grab as well as nerfing certain recoveries. Obviously timings have to be adjusted and/or systems have to be changed.

The best proposal I've been able to come up with is simply holding a button whenever you would have had to mash before. For grabs obviously adjust hold duration/growth so that people don't escape grabs instantly and possibly add a mixup risk/reward system. For instance if you're still holding the button while getting thrown you won't DI.

I await your responses, thanks for reading.


TL:DR

Mashing blows, how about we change it?

 

[9bit]

I don't like B-move mashing because I am bad at it and it hurts when I try to do it really fast. I would love for it to be changed or removed.

I approve of this topic

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I think the removal of mashing to get out of grabs would effectively nerf Kirby to some extent (nothing is as satisfying as seeing your opponent escape Kirby's mouth by doing an air dodge upwards or an easily punishable air attack lol),

I really like your idea for the 'nados though. I find Mario's (I'm assuming Luigi's is the same) one way too mash-dependant and I think holding the B button would be a great way to remedy this "barrier" whilst also sparing our collective fingers.

 

[TreK]

I don't mind the act of mashing. I do like not having a single frame in this game when I'm not actually doing something.

I do mind some effects where you have to mash, though. Essentially, I don't like mashing if the situation doesn't give me feedback that I am done mashing. In example, the wake up animation after being put to sleep by Snake's traquilizer, Jigglypuff's sing or Ivysaur's stun seed is interruptible, so you end up doing whatever you were mashing. Same goes for many other effects, including but not limited to the DK headbutt pitfall effect, the GaW judgement 8 freeze effect, and the Kirby/Dedede swallow effect (although if you're quick you could probably react to this last one).
I think all effects where you have to mash should be followed by an animation telling you to stop mashing, like the grab release animation.

 

[ECHOnce]

Concerning its actual implications on gameplay...I'm not completely convinced this is necessary. It's true that people shouldn't be limited by outside influences (e.g. controller's condition) in any universal aspect of a 'balanced' game simply because their main requires something like button mashing - especially recovery. For those individual moves, I would support the removal of button-mashing (or at least support adding the option of holding it down, sorta like button mashing or holding down A for repeating jab combos). Button mashing to escape grabs/stuns/eggs/kirbycides/etc., however, is universal aspect of the game that every character (and therefore every player) has to deal with, and therefore adds a layer of depth to the game's core mechanics.

But regardless of how sound this idea and its general argument are, it's important to remember that a large portion of the P:M community and PMBR are more on the conservative side. Obviously we're not at the far extreme of Melee purists, but I feel it would be fair to say that we generally share an "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" standpoint. Think about it - we may consider our corner of the smash community to be the most accepting of change, but if every copy of the P:M mod were to hypothetically disappear without a trace tomorrow, very few of us wouldn't end up playing more Melee over Brawl. The very idea of avoiding from something new like Brawl - much less changing everything different/new about it - is conservative. Sure, there's also the many who are newer to the community and weren't exposed to the same circumstances, but nonetheless, they likely decided on P:M because they heard it was "better" than Brawl. Because it was more like Melee. Whether they were properly informed or not, the choice was still the same, and there will always be many of those who wouldn't want anything that has traditionally (albeit not unique) been part of the core mechanics of the game to be changed. The thought is just too uncomforting - even if it's the simplest of changes, having to adjust something they've practiced one way for so long is not appealing to pretty much anybody. Not only that, but the alternatives to button-mashing (or at least the few ideas though up in a brief 5 seconds of interest by those unwilling to read further and see our suggestions) would generally be considered 'easier' - whichever carefully-timed button inputs are decided on for these supposed alternatives, m0R F4sT$!!!!!!!1!!!!!!11!!!1!! button inputs will be assumed to be more complex (and therefore more difficult) at a first glance. And to some extent, it'd be true; a new player would surely find it easier to just calmly hold a button down whenever they realize they're been grabbed than having to think about positioning themselves to properly mash for dear life.

I'm personally neutral on this idea and however far it goes outside of affecting individual moves, but I can't realistically see any other changes of this sort (button inputs for universal mechanics) reaching the center of PMBR future discussions anytime soon (if ever) - even with detriments to the button-holder like removing their option to DI. In fact, that would be even less likely, since all that would technically accomplish is providing an alternative way for the game to punish players with bad controllers.

 

[Mera Mera]

I don't have a strong opinion on this matter, but I would probably take out mashing if it were up to me. My only hesitation is that mashing out of grabs can currently cause poor DI, which might be a good thing(?) I'm not sure. That said, the "holding a button not letting you DI" is an interesting idea. If there are any throws that aren't reactable, then it would make said throws very powerful, since it would cause people to be afraid of struggling. That might end up super buffing some character's grabs. Not sure though.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

If luigi's (and marios') mashing b recovery weren't that way in melee they wouldn't be that way in pm and the characters would be marginally better and easier to play

 

[Shoopman]

I don't mind the act of mashing. I do like not having a single frame in this game when I'm not actually doing something.

I do mind some effects where you have to mash, though. Essentially, I don't like mashing if the situation doesn't give me feedback that I am done mashing. In example, the wake up animation after being put to sleep by Snake's traquilizer, Jigglypuff's sing or Ivysaur's stun seed is interruptible, so you end up doing whatever you were mashing. Same goes for many other effects, including but not limited to the DK headbutt pitfall effect, the GaW judgement 8 freeze effect, and the Kirby/Dedede swallow effect (although if you're quick you could probably react to this last one).
I think all effects where you have to mash should be followed by an animation telling you to stop mashing, like the grab release animation.

I agree with this 1000%. Can't tell you how many times I've been mashing, only to break out with an air dodge or some completely unsafe move. Either give feedback telling you to stop, or put a small buffer where button inputs are not read right after you successfully mash out.

 

[Ace55]

I intended to include a poll but it seems non-premium members can't do that?

 

[Empyrean]

I dunno, I kinda feel that mashing is a must for grabs and moves that render you vulnerable for some time. You're not forced to mash the same button, so it's not as harmful.

However, I could get behind replacing b moves that require mashing.

 

[210stuna]

Mash before you're grabbed, and while you're grabbed. Mash all 4 buttons (ABXY) and if you have X or Y set to Z then you're essentially click ABZ for that one X or Y. I grabbed Dakpo at over 100 and he does this crazy button mashing technique and he escaped after one hit before I could even throw him.

What the heck.

 

[chaosscizzors]

why not just slow down that mashing required and make it more rhythmic, like brawl's grab pummels. if you don't do it with the proper rhythm you'll get a much less effective pummel. now just apply that to any other mashing in the game. accurate timing = tech skill.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If luigi's (and marios') mashing b recovery weren't that way in melee they wouldn't be that way in pm and the characters would be marginally better and easier to play

They are already among the easiest characters to play. Adding this would make people more consistent in this regard.

 

[Doser]

why not just slow down that mashing required and make it more rhythmic, like brawl's grab pummels. if you don't do it with the proper rhythm you'll get a much less effective pummel. now just apply that to any other mashing in the game. accurate timing = tech skill.

I think this is the best solution by far. You would still need to learn a specific timing, yet you are giving your controller and finger a break.

 

[Broasty]

As a Luigi player, I would be quite upset if such a thing was removed. How many times I press and when I press the B Button define my exact height and path I take when doing a Tornado. This is by no means a redundant mechanic that provides no depth, in fact, I believe it to be the opposite. My experience defines a completely different use of the move that many people many think is mostly for recovering or for a predictable approach.

 

[Ace55]

I think this is the best solution by far. You would still need to learn a specific timing, yet you are giving your controller and finger a break.

But how do you convey that timing to players though?

As a Luigi player, I would be quite upset if such a thing was removed. How many times I press and when I press the B Button define my exact height and path I take when doing a Tornado. This is by no means a redundant mechanic that provides no depth, in fact, I believe it to be the opposite. My experience defines a completely different use of the move that many people many think is mostly for recovering or for a predictable approach.

I understand that in certain cases you might want different height/timing/trajectory for tornado. But changing it from mash to hold should still allow that. You wouldn't always have to hold down B for the entire duration, you can still vary it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Great thread I hope it covers a lot. Maybe we need terms to differentiate grab breaking mashing and Tornado B-special mashing. Also need some info on the exact mechanics/techniques/and Brawl/Melee/PM differences (Brawl had a discovered technique to use D-pad while holding C-stick or something to break out super quick)

(Grab break) Mashing is another outlet to always be interacting with the game, going along with DI and stuff that makes Smash great. The biggest problem I have with it is supposedly Control Stick (and C-stick?) have the biggest regard in it, with each direction notch counting as an input. You're basically rotating the stick as fast as possible, while trying to squeeze in as many other button inputs too. It seems decent enough but with gamecube controllers being the way they are the Stick's health is important, and I'm not so sure how damaging rotating the stick (as fast as possible) is. What do you think @Kadano ?

Tornado mashing for Mario/Luigi/MK(who else?) is also kind of annoying. Gallo mentioned he just wanted it made so you hold the button. They were already made easier (especially in regards to Luigi) than Melee, but maybe they could be made even more easier or something. The thing is though at extreme human/maximum input, the tornados can actually go way higher than most people can perform, and you have to restrict/tone down that max distance if you change it to just be holding the button (and with holding the button you can control/lower your height by letting off the button I guess, I wonder if that'd be harder or easier to control).

 

[210stuna]

I understand that in certain cases you might want different height/timing/trajectory for tornado. But changing it from mash to hold should still allow that. You wouldn't always have to hold down B for the entire duration, you can still vary it.

Say he wants to go up, down, and then back up. He can mash from soft to hard and back to soft, but if he has to hold down B then he will be left with a one road recovery either a low, medium, or high vertical recovery. That is because once he let's go of the B that's the end of his recovery, and if you let him able to let go and hold down B for a long time in the same air time Luigi would be able to have an infinite recovery.

The only way the holding down the B for recovery would work with a mix up recovery in mind is if there were different levels of depth in how much you can hold the B button for recovery, but it doesn't work like that. It only counts as a registered B or you didn't press hard enough.

As of now a low recovery is mashing the B button and really hard mashing makes for a higher recovery.

 

[SpiderMad]

Isn't his torando's duration the same regardless of B button inputs? It'd just be like how you play that Copter game by holding space bar to raise, and to slowly raise you'd be holding and letting go. I'm not sure how close to mashing you could get in accuracy though.

@ Broasty Does performing it throughout an entire tournament though get exhausting?

 

[Kink-Link5]

But how do you convey that timing to players though?



I understand that in certain cases you might want different height/timing/trajectory for tornado. But changing it from mash to hold should still allow that. You wouldn't always have to hold down B for the entire duration, you can still vary it.

Reiterating this aspect. Holding vs Mashing provide the same level of potential depth.

You don't need to mash to increase the distance Wario's Up-B travels. You don't need to mash for Blizzard or Firebreaths to last longer. The only thing mashing does is provide an arbitrary skill to boast about where an alternative is available.

 

[9bit]

For people worried about the variable height / time thing, how about this:

Holding the B button counts as if the player were mashing as hard as possible, but you can still repeatedly mash the B button if you want to and it will function just like it does currently.

So, if you were doing, say, MK's tornado and you wanted it to go really high for a bit, you hold down B. Then, halfway through, you want to dip down a little, so you let go of B and start mashing at the speed you know you need to use to dip down but still maintain the full time length of the tornado. Etc.

Maximum heights might have to be adjusted, like @ SpiderMad mentioned, so just holding down the button doesn't give you obscene, inhuman height, but I don't see a problem with that being done.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I have my fingers on directional stick, c-stick, A, B, Y, Z, and R (also attack for me). Don't even think about throwing me

 

[chaosscizzors]

But how do you convey that timing to players though?

the sound effects for these moves already have a rhythmic pattern if i'm not mistaken.

EDIT: also i'd like to point out that brawl grab pummels don't actually convey to the player how slow or fast they need to press the button other than the sub-optimal pummel they get when they don't do it correctly. we learned through trial and error and there's nothing wrong with that, especially when you can just google the solution these days.

 

[Azurie]

One thing to say about mashing to get out of grabs is that it's very intuitive. It feels right to mash the controller like crazy to regain control of your character. This is not to say that I think alternatives shouldn't be explored. There are probably other approaches that would be more fun and/or technical, but I think it'll be tough to outdo the intuitive nature of mashing.

Mashing for tornadoes, however, is a different matter that I don't have proper experience with to comment on.

 

[9bit]

For people worried about the variable height / time thing, how about this:

Holding the B button counts as if the player were mashing as hard as possible, but you can still repeatedly mash the B button if you want to and it will function just like it does currently.

So, if you were doing, say, MK's tornado and you wanted it to go really high for a bit, you hold down B. Then, halfway through, you want to dip down a little, so you let go of B and start mashing at the speed you know you need to use to dip down but still maintain the full time length of the tornado. Etc.

Maximum heights might have to be adjusted, like @ SpiderMad mentioned, so just holding down the button doesn't give you obscene, inhuman height, but I don't see a problem with that being done.

To follow up on this: they could even set it so that holding down the B button only gives you like 75% (or something like that) of possible total mashing potential. That way, really good mashers could still out-perform B-holders, but people who are bad at mashing and wouldn't even be able to get that 75% in the first place can save their thumbs and controller livespans. This also solves the problem of having to change the max heights for mashing.

 

[Broasty]

To follow up on this: they could even set it so that holding down the B button only gives you like 75% (or something like that) of possible total mashing potential. That way, really good mashers could still out-perform B-holders, but people who are bad at mashing and wouldn't even be able to get that 75% in the first place can save their thumbs and controller livespans. This also solves the problem of having to change the max heights for mashing.

At that point you might as well just mash..

 

[9bit]

At that point you might as well just mash..

Some people are better at it than others. I struggle to get height most of the time. Even 75% would be an improvement to my average height.

The point is that the easier technique (holding) wouldn't gain as much benefit as the harder technique (mashing), so it balances out.

 

[Ace55]

Say he wants to go up, down, and then back up.

You hold, release, hold during the downB? I don't see the problem.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

I'm all for getting rid of arbitrary difficulty. The PMBR already made Luigi's cyclone easier than it was in Melee, but it's still reliant on your ability to mash the **** out of your controller . . . which makes a weird sort of sense, I guess. But it's not still pretty difficult to learn, as you have to shift your grip in order to do it optimally. It's just not a very smooth transition, I'd say.

But most importantly, mashing, in general, just really puts a lot of wear and tear on controllers.

 

[SpiderMad]

Apparently Mashing for Tornado in Melee Doc's case CAN be done on more of timing; though I'm still not fully comprehending it. And unaware how it varies for Mario,Luigi, and MK in PM.
http://smashboards.com/threads/doc-advanced-tech-frame-data-megathread.378813/

Perfect Tornado Press (PTP) #5

If you mash B during Doc's down-b Tornado, you can gain considerable height. You can use this for recovering, or even killing an opponent off the top. For each seperate press of B, you must release B for at least 1 frame before another press can be read. A PTP is usually considered to be a tornado that when started from the ground on yoshis, will rise enough to land on the top platform. This can be done with as little as 6 presses, but they must be evenly distributed between frame 1 and frame 38. Even distributing is crucial for this tech, even if you mash 12 times frame perfectly in the first 24 frames, as soon as you stop you will lose momentum and start to drop, not reaching yoshis top platform.

You can hold left or right to move in each direction and it has no effect on height gain. (Holding up or down will not affect it either)

Here is a visual graph to show the differences in tornado heights. I double jump on frame 80 (first frame possible) to show the true height gain for each variant.

I must stress that these presses are spread out evenly between frames 1 and 38. I found it quite interesting to discover that there is no difference in horizontal distance gained with varying amounts of presses, and also that the difference between 12 and 18 presses is so small.

6 presses that would reach yoshis top platform

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/AdvancedPlushGnat

0 -
1 - Down-B
2 -
3 -
4 -
5 - B (must mash first by frame 5)
6 -
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 - B
12 -
13 -
14 -
15 -
16 -
17 - B
18 -
19 -
20 -
21 -
22 -
23 - B
24 -
25 -
26 -
27 -
28 -
29 - B
30 -
31 -
32 -
33 -
34 -
35 - B
36 -
37 -
38 - Last hitbox (mashing b on this frame or after will do nothing)
39 -
.
.
.
76 -
77 - Can hold Up to buffer a double jump (x/y will not work)
78 -
79 -
80 - Double jump / up-b

Apart from the first mash, the presses can be a little leniant and start a frame or two later or earlier a few times. You can hold each press for as many frames as you need to, as long as there is at least 1 frame before your next press.

18 presses for the maximum height

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/GranularGleefulGrebe

0 -
1 - Down-B
2 -
3 - B
4 -
5 - B
6 -
7 - B
8 -
9 - B
10 -
11 - B
12 -
13 - B
14 -
15 - B
16 -
17 - B
18 -
19 - B
20 -
21 - B
22 -
23 - B
24 -
25 - B
26 -
27 - B
28 -
29 - B
30 -
31 - B
32 -
33 - B
34 -
35 - B
36 -
37 - B
38 - Last hitbox (mashing b on this frame or after will do nothing)
39 -
.
.
.
76 -
77 - Can hold Up to buffer a double jump (x/y will not work)
78 -
79 -
80 - Double jump / up-b

- COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same.
- Wrote a guide for his PTP (it works a bit differently) - http://smashboards.com/threads/rising-cyclone-ptp-frame-data-guide.384946/

Also 9bit's custom control D-pad set to Special (now that multiple input code is in 3.5) technique makes it really easy to get maximum height. I can't tell if that makes me less aggravated at it now that I can do that real effortlessly, or just further proves that the mechanic is dumb.

 

[schmooblidon]

Thanks for quoting me to this thread.

Apparently Mashing for Tornado in Melee Doc's case CAN be done on more of timing; though I'm still not fully comprehending it. And unaware how it varies for Mario,Luigi, and MK in PM.

It's to do with vertical velocity and deceleration (gravity). Each time you press B you gain vertical velocity (there is a maximum) and then start decelerating immediately and without pressing quickly after, start falling. Optimally you would just press B every other frame and be at the maximum velocity until the end of the window, but I bet no-one in the history of smash has ever performed this or even close (at least with legitimate tactics). So instead you can theoretically time a certain amount of presses to gain the most height. The idea of this is waiting as long as you can after each press for the next press to reach maximum (or as close as you can) velocity, therefore having the highest average velocity, never decelerating too much and never letting yourself start falling. For doc, at max velocity it takes 20 frames for you to start dropping, but even if you press B again 15 frames later, you will have lost considerable velocity, and will start falling much quicker afterwards.

Luigi's tornado in Melee at least, works by the same principle, but there is some big differences. I have highlighted them here.

Luigi Rising Cyclone (PTP) Frame Data Guide

Luigi can rise with his Down-B move by mashing B rapidly during the startup. Before he is able to, he must first "charge" his Down-B by performing it once beforehand. You can rise every other cyclone you perform. A rising cyclone is most useful for recovering, but could be used for killing an opponent off the top. A PTP (Perfect Tornado Press) loosely refers to a rising tornado/cyclone that gains enough height to be useful, the minimum for height gain is 6 presses.

You can also hold left or right to move horizontally whilst rising, it has no effect on height gain. Holding up or down will do nothing. For each seperate press of B, you must release B for at least 1 frame before another press can be read. Distributing presses between frames 6-43 is crucial. If you do not mash for ~7 frames at the start or ~11 frames near the end, you will lose too much momentum and will lose height.

Luigi's PTP is very similar to Doc and Mario's but there are some key differences besides charging.

* Mashing from frame 1-5 will do nothing, and you move a little downward (cancelling any upward momentum).
Frame 6-43 is your window to mash.

* Because of the initial downward movement, the sooner you start mashing from frame 6, the sooner you cancel it, thus gaining more height. 19 Presses from frame 6 will give the maximum possible height.

* Due to Luigi's floatiness it is better to mash faster at the beginning as to cancel the downward momentum as quickly as possible.

So there are three variables that change height with his. When you start mashing, how many presses and how you distribute the presses.

You can do a 5 press and start on frame 6, that will get you to where you started. 6 presses is when you start gaining height.

Here is a visual gfy to show the differences in cyclone heights. I started mashing on frame 6 every time. I double jump on frame 80 (first frame possible) to show the true height gain for each variant.

http://gfycat.com/InformalZestyDove

Because of the initial downward movement, I first fullhop and start the cyclone on frame 4. This is only for the purpose of the gifs, you will most likely be using this far enough away from a surface to land.

Optimal - 19 Presses with Horizontal DI

http://gfycat.com/TotalFastJanenschia

0 - Airbourne
1 - Down + B
2 - Hold Right (Can start DI'ing horizontally)
.
.
6 - B (Can start mashing now)
7 -
8 - B
9 -
10 - B
11 -
12 - B
13 -
14 - B
15 -
16 - B
17 -
18 - B
19 -
20 - B
21 -
22 - B
23 -
24 - B
25 -
26 - B
27 -
28 - B
29 -
30 - B
31 -
32 - B
33 -
34 - B
35 -
36 - B
37 -
38 - B
39 -
40 - B
41 -
42 - B
43 - (last hitbox)
44 - DIing and Mashing no longer works
.
.
77 - Can buffer a DoubleJump with Up
80 - Can now drift/dj/up-b/whatever

Best 6 Press with Horizontal DI

http://gfycat.com/FluffyFlawedAttwatersprairiechicken

0 - Airbourne
1 - Down + B
2 - Hold Right (Can start DI'ing horizontally)
.
.
6 - B (Can start mashing now)
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 - B
12 -
13 -
14 -
15 -
16 -
17 - B
18 -
19 -
20 -
21 -
22 -
23 - B
24 -
25 -
26 -
27 -
28 -
29 -
30 -
31 - B
32 -
33 -
34 -
35 -
36 -
37 -
38 -
39 -
40 -
41 - B
42 -
43 - (last hitbox)
44 - DIing and Mashing no longer works
.
.
77 - Can buffer a DoubleJump with Up
80 - Can now drift/dj/up-b/whatever


Other useful information:


When doing a charged cyclone in the air, being interrupted between frames 1-43 will still keep the charge. If it is interrupted on frames 44+, you will lose the charge.

I haven't tested how they work in PM yet, though it's likely it's the same mechanics. I'll look into that.

Back more on topic

I am 100% for changing tornados, it's such an absurdly difficult tech, and doesn't reflect your skill like timing and precision oriented tech does. There are a number of ways you could change it. The holding mechanic is nice because it's very flexible and has good mixup potential. Timed inputs like shortened illusions would be cool, higher tech ceiling, great reward and decent mixup potential. The opposite of shortened illusions, where lets say pressing B 4 times in specific intervals grants the max height, and pressing just once gives the shortest. Same benefits as the previous, but likely a greater reward for better skilled players.

In terms of universal applications, I'm on the fence. I'm open to the idea but I'd like to test play it before I say it's a better option. It's a lot easier to visualize the effects of changing tornados, and therefore easier to get behind.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ schmooblidon How or would you change Mashing to break out of grabs at all?