Mario's Metagame thread

[HeroMystic]

Sorry no epically long post this time.

So I'd like to keep this simple. I want this thread to be used to analyze Mario's current metagame. As it stands now, we don't really have anything outside of carried over experience from Brawl and Melee, so this is an ongoing project.

I'll start this off by talking about making a point about Mario's playstyle, specifically, his lack of "respect". No one really has to respect any of Mario's stuff, while Mario has to respect everyone else, but I think the one thing we underestimate is how fast Mario is at reacting to any openings.

Mario's Reactionary playstyle takes advantage of Mario's quick aerials and attempts to take advantage of every single mistake a opponent makes and push it to the limit, then once it's reset to neutral (either through lack of follow-up or getting knocked away), Mario returns to the neutral game in attempt to do it again. The special thing about this style is it benefits Mario's frame data, which is actually one of the quicker ones in the game. B-air should be used as much as possible since it gives the highest damage as an aerial.

When people say Mario is a combo-oriented character, I sometimes feel this is only tell half the story. Typically, what Mario is usually doing is forcing opponents to play safe, because Mario is very capable of racking up damage just purely by opponents leaving themselves open. Every single aerial Mario possesses are capable of punishing, U-tilt and U-Smash can contest aerials, and F-tilt is a pretty decent poke whenever Mario is grounded.

And we can't forget grabs either. D-throw combos into Up-B for quite awhile (in general, we should be using Up-B a lot), but I'm of the opinion that our best option is actually to pummel as much as possible and then use B-throw or F-throw to squeeze in as much damage as possible, and getting the opponent off the stage to set up for B-air/Cape edgeguarding will do more than our standard D-throw.

So in a way, Mario does demand respect. It's just more about utilizing his fundamentals rather than having a scary move.

 

[BoTastic!]

Gonna comment and follow the thread. I'll put in my 2 cents another time, LOL. Good post though, Mystic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've already made a wall of text alluding to this. The short story is Mario is a character who hinges on taking advantage of the sheer speed of his attacks to avoid being in situations where he ends up trading.

We're realistically pretty crappy in midrange. Fast Fireballs and Gust Cape patch it up, though B-air doing 10.5 damage is honestly not too terrible for this game. It's not Falco or Doc's straight up DISGUSTING B-airs, but for a 6 frame move that can be done twice in a short hop, not too bad.

If you watch KirinBlaze's recent Mario videos, he demonstrates that when Mario is able to survive to high percents, he's potentially a great character with Rage. Yes, Rage universally benefits a lot of characters, and most heavy characters generally are better at practically making use of Rage due to raw survivability. But just think for a moment. One of Mario's biggest problems is poor KO options. Rage suddenly turns Mario into a character that actually does kill you after hitting you a bunch of times. In general, anything we can do that helps us avoid situations where we get gimped can be seen as bringing us closer to victory. Mario isn't a character who necessarily struggles to an extreme in finding hits. We more struggle finding meaningful hits, and Rage both benefits Mario by making many more of his moves potential KO moves, but also by improving his combos at very low percents.

Part of the other problem we have I feel is we don't yet have a completely clear idea how Mario's combos work. We know they are percent specific, and inconsistent. This is something I know I personally will invest sweat and blood into once the Wii-U game is in my hands, because knowing exactly how we can maximize our reward with fewer risks is going to be important. In general though, I would agree that F-throw and B-throw for edgeguard opportunities are probably more valuable as a whole. Heck, B-throw does 11-12 damage, which honestly is great for a throw. Not to mention with Rage, the improved KO potential can't be ignored.

 

[HeroMystic]

Here's the thing about Mario's low damage per hit. After playing Mario in multiple matches, I'm inclined to say this weakness is not as bad as originally made out to be. I'll explain.


Jab 1: 1%
Jab 2: 1%
Jab 3: 2%
Jab Flurry: 4 hits minimum, 1% each, final hit is 3%.
Dash Attack: 7%

Ftilt - 10%
Dtilt - 6%
Utilt - 6%

Nair - 6%
Fair - 12%
Uair - 8%
Dair - 13%
Bair - 9%

F-Smash - 16%
D-Smash - 12%/15% (Front/Back)
U-Smash - 11%

Pummel - 2%
F-Throw - 9%
U-throw - 10%
D-throw - 7%
B-throw - 12%

Net Total: 182%


Jab 1 - 2.5%
Jab 2 - 1.5%
Jab 3 - 4%
Dash Attack - 8%

F-tilt - 7%
U-tilt - 5.5%
D-Tilt - 7%

F-Smash - 17%
U-Smash - 14%
D-Smash - 10%/12% (Front/Back)

N-air - 8%
F-air - 14%
U-Air - 7%
D-air - 1% * 5, 5% (6 hits total); Grounded D-air deals 2%
B-air - 10.5%

Pummel: 3.3%
F-throw: 8%
B-Throw: 11%
U-Throw: 7%
D-Throw: 5%

Net Total: 172.3%

As you can see, Diddy has a 10% lead on us when comparing the basic moveset. If we add on specials, we're actually pretty comparable to Diddy since Mario's Up-B is actually pretty good(12%), and Fireballs(5%) are stronger than Diddy's peanuts(3-8%) and bananas(4%). Diddy has increased trickery with his Side-B(12% minimum) thanks to it being an aerial grab. That Cape(7%) tho.

If we just wanted to compare aerials, Mario comes out on top (49.5% for Mario; 48% for Diddy).

So when all is said and done, Mario has comparable damage output to Diddy, a character that is currently the undisputed champion of Smash 4. I'm sure if we compared with Shiek, we'd find similar results.

What makes Diddy stronger than Mario isn't his damage, but his setups. Between Bananas, D-throw, U-air, and his grabs, Diddy is able to keep constant pressure on his opponent and the victim is forced to play at his pace if they're stuck in an disavantageous state. Diddy has a powerful neutral game.

So even though we've been harping on Mario's low damage per hit, I don't believe that is his main problem, nor even a real crippling issue (more like a character trait). Mario's problem at the moment is his lack of setups. Therefore, our focus right now should be on pushing Mario's ability to press his advantageous state as far as it can go.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, if you look at the practicality of moves, Diddy's superior damage output is pretty noticeable.

Diddy's throws for straight damage are better than Mario's, in ADDITION to the superior setup potential.

Diddy's F-air is an insane spacing tool that's fast, and does 12%. Mario's B-air is just an okay spacing tool that does 10.5%.

Diddy's U-air juggles about as, if not more reliably than Mario's at low percents, and does more damage (aside from the fact it kills...)

Mario's D-tilt does 5% at the range you should be spacing it. Diddy's 6% D-tilt has greater range AND speed than Mario's. Both are okay for setups, but Diddy likely has it better when you consider the frame data and the setup into F-air.

So Diddy not only has better setups, the moves he actually wants to use do great damage, while Mario's preferred moves are overall really low damage. The few moves Mario has that do great damage often require significant reads.

Mario does 18% with D-throw -> U-airx2 which only works at very specific percents. Diddy does 19% with D-throw F-air, which works at a very large percent range. Yeah...low damage per hit is a very serious problem for Mario.

Yeah like, we can sorta get comparable reward with D-throw U-smash and D-throw F-air also at very specific percent ranges. I mean yeah, having lame setups is a problem for Mario, but really. Just the damage we do with moves we want to use is not very good.

 

[Karaoke Man]

It's just more about utilizing his fundamentals rather than having a scary move.

^ This. Mario is a versatile character, but I'll elaborate on that a little later

 

[HeroMystic]

I dunno, if you look at the practicality of moves, Diddy's superior damage output is pretty noticeable.

You'd be right. Diddy's is noticable because his moveset synergizes like a well-oiled machine. His D-throw leads into everything(hyperbole), and his speed allows him to punish quickly enough and follow up even further.

Mario doesn't have the luxury of his best moves for combos (U-tilt, U-air) having high damage, despite having a similar if not exact playstyle to Diddy (which is why I was amused when Shaya said Mario is Diddy 0.75). This is why I'm finding that treating Mario less of a combo character and more of a balanced/reactionary character allows more utility out of his moveset. Weaving in, doing what he can, then weaving out once he feels his momentum dying out seems to be the most optimal route.

Did I mention Mario's aerials, particular N-air, beats a lot of other aerials this time around? It even stops the majority of Sonic's stuff.

 

[BSP]

It eats a lot of projectiles too.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This thread is malnourished. Let's fix that with a low quality yet informative video!

5:46 and onwards is more general advice and should be applied liberally.

Of note, I will summarize my thoughts on Mario's biggest weaknesses.

- Low % game (in theory)
- Lack of "flexible" kill options

I think Mario can convert into legitimately 75% of his kit in the mid percentage ranges, that's where he really shines. A lot of his stuff starts to string/combo, and followups are simple, flexible, and easy. Kill setups are difficult and I think Mario is going to rely on USmash/FSmash reads, Rage helps as well.

D-Throw into Fair works on Pikachu as a tru combo at 90%, you can do it near the ledge for an instant KO.

Let's keep the discussion rolling, Throw options vs. Heavies, since Mario's D-Throw is no longer a big bounce.

We also need to get around our lack of flexible fast kill options. Mario has great ways to kill off of reads, arguably his best kills are from USmash and FSmash. Rage can help add flexible kill options by proxy, and FLUDD is a great gimping and disruption tool especially with its increased effectiveness, but I think these two weaknesses are the only hurdles that stand in Mario's way.

 

[TMario]

I miss stutter step F-Smash. The extra range made it a great "surprise" kill move.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario can get U-Throw > U-Smash (true combo) on Captain Falcon and ZSS at 0 - 4% (one fireball). Mario can get U-Throw > U-air (true combo) for the large majority of the cast at 0%, though it's frame tight.

D-Throw > Fair (true combo) works on the entire cast at varying percents (mainly 90% to 110%).

U-throw should be used on characters that can shield/N-air U-tilt from a D-throw.

 

[TTTTTsd]

U-Throw should also be used against fastfallers because it sets up into true combo/easy string Dair. As demonstrated vs. Fox. I imagine anyone who falls around that speed would probably get wrecked by it or they'd have to commit to an airdodge and lag.

 

[BSP]

So what about Dtilt vs Utilt when it comes to strings?

Edit: Yoshi and Mac can definitely Nair out of Utilt strings.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dtilt vs. Utilt? I imagine DTilt is advised against those who can break out of Utilt strings or if you want a regrab mix up.

Dtilt's weakness is it can be jumped out of, Utilt's is that it can be Naired out of. You can also use Dtilt if you wanna dashgrab right after thanks to good frame data.

Also lol @ Mac's nair, that's disappointing. I'll eventually try and test it with everyone if nobody else has the free time to. Probably over the holidays.

 

[b2jammer]

Fireball definitely helps Mario's approach game. He can jump forward and use one to block in front of him, forcing the opponent to react and giving Mario enough time to jab combo or grab. I have a very aggressive playstyle and this helped me reduce my damage %.

 

[HeroMystic]

If Mario didn't have so many cooldown frames after his fireball was out, it'd serve it's role excellently. It's honestly infuriating how long it takes to act out of it.

 

[b2jammer]

I always full jump when using it, so the cooldown doesn't really bother me that much (especially on FD or near the middle of BF). IIRC, it's landing lag isn't as long if timed right.

 

[HeroMystic]

Unfortunately, Mario's recovery on fireball is the same regardless of how you use it. Full Hopping is worse since characters are capable of running under it.

 

[b2jammer]

Very true. I guess I've gotten away with it more than I probably should because my only good access to local Smash is through school, and only about three or four people other than myself are at a relatively high level of play. E.g, During a small tourney I shielded Greninja's Side-B multiple times in a row, either grabbing OoS or Fsmashing right after.