Hey, it's back, the one and the only: FrozenRoy's Comment and Set Corner, Inspired by WoMF! Warrior of Many Faces, it's whats for dinner!
So, how does this work? Real simply, actually: I take sets and comments, I link to the set, spoiler the commentso this is isn't ridiculous long, and now bam you can look at this to see all the comments on sets easy! Here's an example!
Set Name Here (w/ Link to Post Included)
by Username413
[collapse="Commenter612"]COMMENT BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH[/collapse]
As a warning, XenForo is sorta messed, so sometimes you might see it duplicating spoilers at random. I think I may have found a way to avoid this, but if not, you'll just have to deal for now. Please also note that I will not be keeping images or text colors, for the most part: I make this by keeping a Notepad I copy it too and adding in images and text colors is a huge amount of time to invest when doing so. Let's get to it!
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[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Alchemy Kong
The preview of Sloth that I got, small as it was, was quite nice, and this set didn't fall short when it was completed, no siree. Sloth's in character need to build up the effort to put in the work, even for the short time he needs, builds a nice basis for a better "This character is super strong" feel than Koala Kong or Kudgel. (Why couldn't you be Ksloth?) His building of slopes seems handled fine, digging them out or bending smaller platforms to his will and the epitomous boulders then make their appearance, rolling down their slopes and whatnot. The addition of making Sloth hurt by his own boulders was a good one, giving more focus to his extreme survivability, making his setups more dangerous but also allowing him to do cool tricks with damaging himself to cancel his ending lag, similiar to characters like Snake and Link. This, of course, plays excellently into his game as a long surviving heavyweight, as he is willing to take a little pain to just get the fight over with quicker and get back to bed.
His game plays well with his physical strikes, as he has options both at close and long range, but tends to prefer an approach that involves more of the opponent approaching, needling them with lazy chain strikes and other such moves and using his strength to crush them close. Of course, Sloth is a bit easy to chain hits on, so he is also inviting the foe into a favorable spot, and he isn't totally unable to approach. His ability to lob boulders allows him to force approaches or create harsh physical play...but at the same time, he has to be careful of his opponent just using the boulder against him just as well, and he can't just sit at the bottom of the pit with a rolling boulder unless he wants to be messed up. This risk and reward helps give Sloth a lot more depth. Sloth's aerials and standards may not look like much, but their simple moves play and flow well into his ebbing and flowing playstyle, and I enjoy their simple effects that add on to the depth of things like chaining to the foe, chaining boulders and the slopes. Down Tilt's hitbox in particular tickled my fancy, a good way to use a simple effect or knockback change and make it a good deal.
The pummel game is probably my biggest sadness, as the grab's animation feels a mite awkward, and the whole game of shoving back and forth seems quite odd on Sloth, even if I know where it is coming from, and the fact the entire pummel game, sans the chain, seems to be devoted to a stale sort of stalling for the effort in this kind of awkward way leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I much prefer his game of waiting for effort outside the pummel than otherwise, the handling of this lumbering, strong and slothful brute with his ways of bringing the foe to and fro. My other disappointment is I would have enjoyed a bit more of the boulder to interrupt your lag, hit you around or stuff like that, but I can understand not putting more in and what is there is quite good. This is definitely my favorite set I've seen from you, as of this time anyway, since I first joined, so MYM12 and on. So amusingly, I would say Sloth has you off to a fast start.
Also, minor note, but I do quite like what you did with the attack names, simple lazy one liners that even repeat. Sloth is just too lazy for those fancy attack names![/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Sloth
This is some of the most simplistic looking organization I've ever seen on a competitive set, but I actually kind of like that aspect of it, given I don't think pretty organization is something that matters to set quality, and the lazy looking of it is fitting for Sloth. Junahulian aspects aside, the set is very enjoyable, taking a lot of aspects of the original Sloth and making them vastly more interesting, with the addition of the admittedly somewhat obvious ability in hindsight to chain oneself to a boulder, as well as removing the stamina mechanic and making him more intent on playing cat and mouse through a more player controlled mechanic. Of course said mechanic is made that much better by the fact that it's not JUST cat and mouse where you run away from Sloth with his buff and attack him when it's down, as even a relatively small amount of damage can stop this otherwise godly ability and make Sloth highly vulnerable, creating an incredibly high risk but high reward dynamic to his playstyle. The pits and chaining mechanics all flow into this pretty naturally, giving Sloth some pretty incredible survivability to help cover up his vulnerability and abuse the effort mechanic for some(and for that matter very well executed thanks to the chain use) heavyweight combos.
Unlike DM and Froy I actually do like the direct stalling mechanism, although more-so because of the dynamic it creates between Sloth and the foe while he pushes them around than just as a direct stalling mechanism, as well as it's use in the throws. The simpler moves are also fine despite not meeting the par of the fantastic Smashes too, although to be their uses often feel a bit niche and redundant, the Nair and Uair feeling like more noticeable cases than most. That's not to say these moves are bad outright, but I wish using the more playstyle relevant parts of their effects felt a little more... natural or diverse from the other moves. This is all understandable though, as the set tries to keep shockingly in smash by Warlordian standards and on top of that was a bit rushed for time given it was meant to be released opening day(better than not releasing a set at all, formal apologies to anyone who actually thought I was competent). To the point though, this set makes exciting new use of a lot of well travelled concepts to create a very well characterized playstyle, something I think we all can admire.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]MYM Work Ethic
Sloth is a set I actually enjoyed, much to my delight. I really liked the original Sloth back from MYM6, so I was definitely excited to see that Warlord had taken a shot at this set again. This set takes a lot of inspiration, surprisingly, from his old MYM7 set Cairne Bloodhoof, primarily with the creation of pits to abuse trapping the opponent in and the creative grab-game of pushing the opponent, but it also makes the great use of the mechanics with chains, which have lost a bit of the simplicity I so appreciated in moves like old Sloth's jab, but does make up for it with raw quantity of interactions and new possibilities. I can't praise the simple yet effective smashes enough... the Forward Smash is such an excellent high-risk, high-reward maneuver, the Up Smash's ability to throw chained opponents into the air and lead into all sorts of follow-ups is exactly the type of thing I love to include in my own movesets.
That said, I do have a few reservations against the set itself as well. It is a bit unnecessarily complicated, and the most egregious offender in this to me is the Neutral Special. Effort itself isn't too complicated, although it does have quite a few rules with its activation, but the waking up rules and lag time and long cooldown times make it a bit more unwieldy than I wish it was. I also worry a bit about the opponent's ability to stall and plank against it, but Sloth fortunately doesn't mind too much, as he'll often be using effort in the beginning of the match to set up, and can always try to hit planking enemies with a long-ranged forward tilt to knock them out of it. The whole manner in which Sloth makes up for his slowness with his long-ranged attack options using his chains is something I like, and you make good use of simple yet effective tactics. One of my personal favorites is the ability to bait dodges with the first use of the Up Special only to whack them again with the second.
Another complaint I have though would have to be against the grab-game. It feels tacked-on, in no small part thanks to the very awkward animation of having the opponent automatically put their hands around Sloth's shoulders as well (I'd love to see Olimar try to do that). On top of that, the three pummels are a bit unnecessary... the B pummel could have easily been fused into the back throw, and the A pummel is just a very complicated... stalling maneuver. One pummel could have been enough for this set, and the opponents really didn't need the ability to push back on Sloth either... normal grab escapes would have been just fine and not really affected the balance of the set too much, I should think. I'm not a big fan of the Nair either... I don't think that it's going to be helpful as often as you suggest it would be to rotate his chain in mid-air bit by bit. Especially since the chain is likely to be moving as he jumps around on the stage anyways. It could have just as easily been thrown up and around by the other aerials, like up aerial and forward aerial to give the chain momentum to move around.
All-in-all though, Sloth is a set that's definitely more than solid and a fine first (third?) set to have in this contest. I'm glad to be able to endorse a Warlord set again.[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Sloth
Starting MYM15 off fresh with an unbanned Warlord's first HMA of the contest. Cool! Before I talk about the moveset itself, I'd like to give a little praise to Sloth's very good characterization, which, while I can't say I've read or seen FMA (I'll get around to it eventually...), Sloth basically captures what I'd think of a giant hulking monster named "Sloth" would be like. So...uh...good job...on that part....
Moving on!
The Effort mechanic is pretty awesome! I think it manages it's job pretty well with enough restrictions on it to keep it from being too broken. The down special seeps to be something right out of a moveset by yourself that was far more maligned than this one is looking to be, Goriath, what with the very natural way you've managed to integrate terraforming without it seeming too OP. And with that terraforming comes the boulder inevitable "rolling stuff down slopes" move, which I think the side special, again does pretty well(i actually quite like this trope, as most of you know I explored it in Appetizer), generally fitting in so far. And getting to thee up special...this is pretty cool! I like the idea of having to create your own weapon and reap both the benefits and downfalls of losing one move for another.
Right off the bat, the grab animation is a bit strange and awkward, but you do make good use of it with the Z pummel, and the A pummel even contributes even more to that lazy characterization of his. I'm pretty much cool with the B pummel too, since it takes such a specific combination of things to happen to be useful anyway. The throws themselves are chaingrab city when paired with slopes, but that seems to be the intention, and again is mostly useful when putting forth effort. Outside of the various pummels, the grab game is a bit unremarkable, but it works with the specials well.
The standard attacks are very, well, standard for a character like this, though I in particular like the Dashing attack. The only one that feels forced in is the Up tilt, with all of the others working well in tandem with the rest of the moveset so far. Forward smash I like a lot, especially with the little touches in how to deal with scrolling stages, but in general a way to give sloth any kind of movement at all. The boulders again work very well with this.Down smash is quite cool too, though maybe a bit too powerful. Even though it has such a slow speed, the absurd range certainly doesn't more than makes up for it. Up smash is cool, also: I especially like the danger element at play here with the boulders supposedly also hurting Sloth on their way down. I give major props on the aerial game here, too: they tie in well and don't seemed forced when they easily could be on a moveset for a character such as sloth.
I liked Sloth a lot, in fact I think it's the strongest opening movesets we've had in years. Seriously awesome job on this one, Warlord!
Geto's Sloth rating: Wario-worthy[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Sloth
It took me a while to get around to Sloth since I tend to read sets in odd patterns, but this was my first priority to get to after the sets I've already given feedback on. Another WL set means another interesting read, as usual. Following off the coattails of Gluttony, Sloth is a piece with just as much quality to it, as well as a slight improvement in characterization and writing style. The defining aspect of the set, at least in my eyes, is the very high-risk, high-reward nature I've come to expect from your sets. At first, Sloth's notable lack of invincibility frames had me intrigued, and as I expected, a satisfactory explanation was given that made it all come together. The multitude of complexities that arise from move conjunctions and their interactions with every imaginable scenario is worth much praise, with some personal favorite pieces being the way effort-induced sleeping interacts with slopes, and the surprising utility of the standard boulder item that a lot of sets try to twist in creative new ways; Sloth largely succeeds in making it interesting, though I am curious as to why further exploration of boulders as projectiles or short-ranged weapons wasn't used. Such application is highly unnecessary, so I don't mind (and am rather glad that boulders don't centralize the set) though I would've expected something more anyway. This lack of excessive boulder use is most surely for the better, and I know that's why it's excluded. It is, after all, a very well-crafted work.
My only problem at all with the set, aside from a few typos, is the mentioning of how sustaining 16% knocks Sloth out of his Effort state much farther into the set than it needs to be. While I understand why this was done, I think that different wording could have catered to both requirements. Regardless, an absolutely fantastic opening set, and one I'm glad I got to comment after seeing some of the other sets, for the sake of perspective.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]What a fitting start to my much delayed comment wall. Sloth is a genuine heavyweight male antagonist. It’s proud of that fact and unashamedly makes use of generic moves that have the character fall over backwards asleep and steal a forward aerial from the King of Evil, to list but two examples of many. It’s to the set’s great benefit to have these seemingly boring moves because the potential you squeeze out of them is anything but a letdown. They are all uniformly simple and effective, fantastically well implemented moves. That paves the way for the boulder mechanic to work seamlessly into the set without leaving moves useless or filler removing the rocks. There are plenty of awesome interactions using them all throughout the set that feel incredibly natural, versatile and have very strong flow.
The effort mechanic is again, simple and effective. It’s the best way to make this character have the traits of a boss and keep it strictly balanced. Ways that it changes other moves feel incredibly straightforward and logical, while allowing for the player to experiment. The only time I found this steam train of well considered moves was not derailing but slightly turbulent was during the grab and multiple pummels. It would actually be an improvement simply to combine the two first pummels and make something else of the chain pummel, maybe a throw. At its core the grab game is not ruined by that grievance, the slow, calculated positioning that leads to the up throw and likewise the down throw is just as smart as the forward or up smash.
This set is the sum of everything I love about heavyweight male antagonist movesets. It has no shame about what it is, it’s clever about what it can let fly and what it has to give extra depth to without letting it get remotely out-of-hand. It’s surprisingly level-headed, the boulder mechanic, the effort and chains as tethers or just an attack, all juggled around and given the appropriate focus.[/collapse]
[collapse="n88_2004"]Sloth
This one's already got a lot of attention, and it's not hard to see why. It's pure Warlord in top form. I do have a few quibbles with it. Some kind of visual indicator when Sloth can use Effort again would be nice, and I would almost prefer a more absolute system for the chain inputs. Tap once for left chain, twice for right chain, or somesuch. But those are, as I said, quibbles. This is a really superb set for the patron saint of MYM, as I'm sure all sorts (a couple of sorts, at least) of people have already told you.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Reimu
As basic as the barriers you introduce on Neutral Special are, I'm surprised by how interesting you manage to make them simply with the addition of the duplex barrier. It lets Reimu overwhelm the foe's defenses in some pretty interesting ways, particularly in conjunction with moves like Up Smash and Back Aerial. It also helps make her close up game more interesting by utilizing barriers on her other attacks, in order to protect herself in conjunction with attacking, making up for her overall weakness in terms of attacking power, as well as giving her resilience against gimps despite her lack of a recovery on Up Special and reliance on a somewhat easier to stop float. I also like the ofudas, particularly in their ability to be magically charged to produce some actually interesting status effects on the throws(in that they don't gimp opponents horribly or create stun).
While the individual concepts are interesting, I can't help but feel there's no really strong connecting point. I mean I guess she's overall strong in the air and defensively with the barriers, but the flow is pretty lacking and some moves just interact with the barriers because they can(the move that shatters barriers for a powerful hitbox comes to mind, ultimately feels kind of pointless playstyle-wise). I also don't feel the ofudas disabling inputs on Side Special really flows into the rest of what she does, and if you're going to disable inputs in a contest where having access to certain inputs at any given time is important, I'd prefer to have actual justification.[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Reimu Hakurei
Jeez, man, even when you're sick you post like 5 movesets on opening day! I've definitely gotta show love for the way that you describe your beloved Touhous. I can feel the love pouring out of these descriptions. Or maybe that's just my leaky ceiling I haven't fixed yet. Either way, I like it.
From the first two moves alone, Reimu is certainly shaping up to be a very "prevent damage" character than an "avoid and deal damage" sort of character. That down special though...oooh boy do I love it, allowing you to turn yoiur defense into an offense. Brilliant stuff. And I respect your decision to hold off on a recovery, though that was probably made easier by having this be a natural fit for the USpec. Reimu isn't lacking in aerial prowess anyway.
I quite like the down Smash's awesome indirect way of attacking, fitting in with that uber-defensive theme you've got going. Up smash is a straight attack, but it's a cool trans-dimensional thing, too, so that's pretty awesome. Forward smash is a nice middle ground, giving her a decent attack while also giving her fair defense.The jab is a nice bullet swarm move, as is the forward tilt. Down tilt is honestly pretty bland, but I like the offensive capabilities of the Up tilt. Dash attack is nice too, of only because it offers similar, more mobile approach than the Up Tilt.
That up throw tho. Awesome. Ultimate passive-aggressive assault at its finest, while not being too broken because of the strict time limit of the ofuda. Lolsuplex. Forward throw is also nice, again being stopped from brokenness because of the ofuda. Down throw feels the tiniest bit forced, but it does have nice playstyle relevance. Aerials are also nice, giving her some nice offensive options, finally.
Reimu is a great opener for you, Froy. Really nice read!
Geto's Reimu Rating : 3 lightweight female protagonists out of 3[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]2HOOS
I finished reading Marisa and Reimu, and I'm afraid neither of them really wowwed me, but I certainly don't dislike either of them. I'm combining this comment into one for both of them, because both of them had a shared problem that sorta held back their sets for me. Reimu was the worse offender of the two, but both of them felt that they suffered from moves that really didn't stick to the set well, and sorta dangled off, tying themselves together with mechanics and debuffs that felt a bit out of place. Combined with some moves that felt surprisingly stale intermixed with those that were really interesting held them back from being really as impressive as I'd hoped they'd be.
To talk about them individual, I'll focus on the good with Reimu first: the key concept of the Neutral Special is one of the most fun moves to imagine I've read in quite a while. Very simple, very intuitive, lots of potential building off of it alone... and when you throw in the duplex barrier too, it gets really interesting. Things that played off of that move simply were the ones I considered the best... things as simple as the dash attack or up special blocking off opponents trying to jump over barriers were fun ideas that created a defensive playstyle that built on itself without feeling forced. Unfortunately, more of it felt forced than I would have liked as I mentioned before, especially the debuffs that Reimu can lay down on opponents like the ones from her throws or down smash. It's incredibly unintuitive and a bit awkward that her trap weakens and nerfs shields, which are pretty sacred to be messing with, for a few seconds.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Reimu
While reading through Reimu, I gradually came to like the set less and less. Each attack was fine on its own, but I kept waiting for more collusion between them, and that never really came in the way I would've liked. "Lack of flow," as FA put it, is my main gripe with Reimu. She has some interesting, balanced effects and some crazy-enough-to-work interactions, even if I find the scrolls to be rather...uninteresting for various reasons; everything having to do with the dimensional barriers is pretty cool and gets my approval. But none of this connects very well, and overall, Reimu ends up coming off as a standard, Melee-like set with a few extra effects on her moves that make her somewhat more complicated than normal, but not awfully deep. I do appreciate the set's simplicity, of course. You know me and how I love that simplicity. While I find it a good character in concept, however, that doesn't mean I necessarily was too impressed with the moveset as it stands alone. Ugh...I don't really know what to say. This set didn't leave me with much of an impression, so I don't really know how to express my thoughts on this one. Not bad, but not my cup of tea, I suppose. Don't let my opinion ruin it for you.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]HR STATUS EFFECTS
I disagree on the lack of the Reimu’s flow from other comments, that’s not that much of an issue. Pressuring the foe with the ofudas flows into the game as simplistic pressure presented by the Down Special of having a box spawn around the foe, and everything about the barriers of course comes from there. This definitely seems how you want her to play, what with how much you believe in her ability to place mass ofudas on the foe in an incredibly short time frame. There are definitely some merits to it and I can see why somebody would like the moveset.
Mechanically it falls apart on two sides. The first issue is the fact that, indeed, the timers on the ofudas are much too short to ever use their effects. The fthrow/uthrow require one already on the foe before she’s allowed to do anything, and only lasts as long as those stay on. The dthrow is the same but is laughably impractical to use without stacking mass ofudas on the foe at once. My understanding of ofudas is placing multiple doesn’t renew their timers or cause their timers to interact in any way, so it seems pretty laughable when the timers are already so short. This is not just limited to the ofudas, but the barriers and the Down Special as well. Now granted, the Down Special is just about the one thing powerful enough in the moveset to be justified to such a short timer. . .But it requires a barrier up in order to do anything, and getting up a barrier is no small feat indeed. Not only does it last for just 5 seconds, the lag is very long to produce it in the first place. These are the same barriers that you somehow expect the player to create enough of in order to mass wallkick with back aerial, when getting more than even two up at once sounds just about impossible. It is already bad if you believe that these short times are enough to do much of anything, but it’s another thing entirely when the vast majority of the moveset’s contexts are already assuming something is up. Reimu is a very predictable character to play against due to having to land certain moves after her first in a short timeframe, and she has to fight like hell to ever be able to play with the cool stuff advertised by the moveset. While if she ever gets the hits off/set-up she needs she can destroy defensive characters, a competent one probably wrecks her and doesn’t allow her to do much of anything, much less a rushdown.
The other issue is the fact that if you ignore the timers and assume they last for a reasonable amount of time, the moveset sounds pretty absurd to play against, so it’s something of a problem of conceptual brokenness. I think you probably realized this and it’s the reason why all of the timers are as incredibly generous to the foe as they are. The stun the barriers provide is already very powerful, along with the methods she has to shoot projectiles around them, but when she gets off a Down Special and can spawn as many hitboxes directly on the foe’s person whenever she wants everything pretty much goes to hell. You do indeed seem to want her to stack absurd amounts of powerful status effects on the foe with heavy pressure, and with the stun of the barriers and the pseudo infinite range she via Down Special things don’t look good.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Next is Reimu, a character centered on counter-type attacks and cancelling out the foe’s offenses but not completely rescinding into a shell of hyper-defence. This moveset is for the most part, good about its use of denying the foe’s moves and keeping them zoned from anywhere on the stage using barriers… but is not the most intuitive nor easy set to play. That mostly stems from the very short duration the barriers, ofudas and other elements stay on-stage. I realize the need for balance, but just one of these could’ve lingered for longer and given Reimu some breathing room. Setting up one barrier that only lasts a few seconds in conjunction with an ofuda on the foe sounds pretty frustrating and easily turtled by a foe.
The set does a decent job creating interesting mix-ups and to give some purpose to simplistic moves through the barriers, the smashes coming up with a few more interesting creative ways to negate the foe’s offence. Altogether, the set makes a good play on Reimu’s established style of whittling down a powerful foe by very simple means. It’s simply not all that interesting or well executed to get far beyond that. There are some weird albeit funny moves that don’t really play into the playstyle, but could be argued as important for the Touhou community to get their dues. The characterisation of the set makes up for many of its shortcomings, but is not engaging beyond the short-lived effects of the barriers and ofudas to make a lasting impact. As far as Reimu and Touhou is concerned though, a very strong start.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Marisa
This set is on the surface a bit more exciting than Reimu with it's big explosive hitboxes and super fast broom with a powerful tail hitbox, and I would say that it actually does manage to have a decent deal of substance in spite of that. The ability to reflect projectiles off the stars is pretty standard for projectile spam sets, but it becomes a bit more interesting when you're bouncing hitboxes between them that you yourself are vulnerable too despite their power. Making these powerful pseudo traps is handy too in executing her massive finisher move, by getting in the way and in the cases of the flasks, being possible to activate during that move's start lag. It's a decent take on projectile manipulation, mostly due to the mechanics of Master Spark as well as the risk of having projectiles bouncing around, which is pretty rare to see in these kinds of projectile based sets.
What I don't personally like is that Blazing Star just doesn't seem terribly relevant to this. I mean the concept of the broom which can fly at ludicrous speeds with the laser shooting out the back that is used for a melee hitbox in some moves isn't bad. And on inputs like Down Aerial and Down Smash you do some neat stuff with Blazing Star, it just... doesn't really work into projectile manipulation in and of itself, especially when Marisa's set isn't exactly based around slow projectiles she's trying to catch up too. I guess it makes for a fun secondary gameplan but it just doesn't really work into the main one that well, and it doesn't have that much flow in and of itself, which is a bit of a shame since the better half of the set is certainly good, but I did enjoy this set.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]When it comes to Marisa, I have a few less complaints. The key complaint I do have has to do with Blazing Star... you set up the strengths and weaknesses of this move early on, then give it an upgraded version that overshadows or outright removes most of the weaknesses it has like turning lag and is pretty easy to throw out. The ability to fire off hit and run attacks, blast enemies with a whopping 20% laser that fires independently of any of her actual attacks... that's kinda terrifying. The rest of the set conceptually I have less problems with... the throw that ties an explosive vial to the opponent being a stand-out sore thumb otherwise. The key idea of charging up the mini-Hakkero, laying down stars with attacks and creating a labyrinth of lasers is fun, I just wish the other moves had a bit more consistency to them, it all feels very haphazard... when stars are hitboxes and when they aren't, etc.
Make no mistake, I actually do like both of the sets, if not particularly strongly. They're a good addition to the contest, and a reminder that I rarely see a set of yours I don't like. That's impressive with as prolific as you are.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Marisa
After being a bit disappointed by Reimu, Marisa quickly turned the tables. That is to say, I quite liked it, and I'm not just saying that because it's similar to Jet. The presentation is top-notch, as is the writing style (a number of typos notwithstanding). From the get-go, Marisa, with her casual broomstick riding and self-hindering bombs, presents herself as a very fun character to play as. The use of stars as reflectors for her plethora of beams and projectiles, while I can't help but feel lacks in freshness, is fun and helps add to her frenzied, stage-dominating game. However, I agree with FA that her lack of emphasis on slow projectiles makes her mobility come off as a tad underutilized. Quite unlike FA, however, I very much enjoy the implementation of the Blazing Star. In fact, I'd say that while it's not necessary, it does add a small amount of depth to the set that makes it that much more interesting. The idea of giving oneself a temporary buff at the cost of control is always welcome in a mobility-based set such as this, and the jet trail acting as a hitbox extension is both cool and adequate besides.
What I love most about Marisa is her approachable functionality; she's unorthodox for a Smash Bros. character, but never runs very far with the gimmicks. She still seems easy for a player to pick up and use, while being fun and not too demanding or complex. Overall, a very fun set and hopefully a sign of more good things to come. A very solid regular vote at least, this early in the contest.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]SONIC REMIX REMIX
I thought the whole way through reading Marisa that the projectile manipulation (Dsmash is a favorite as you bounce your projectiles around in the middle) was cool while the momentum portion of the moveset was dumb and disconnected to the rest of her game. This isn’t like Reimu and Lucemon in having some decent sub branches that don’t flow fully into each other, either, as the momentum really was lacking in terms of any kind of actual use of the fact that she has it, despite you regularly making so many (pointless and/or generic) changes to moves based off whether she is using it or not. If you’re asking me to figure out how it goes with her projectile game, I’d say the best you really can do is running away and hit and run, but going at that speed will not let her get the precision she wants. Using it remotely offensively like you suggest will just get her hit by her own attacks as far as flow in gameplan.
Granted, there is one use of it that is exceedingly broken and has gone unmentioned, and that is just grabbing them with momentum and carrying far off-stage to the blast zone before throwing and casually turning around. The moveset has a strong feeling that it’s trying to be ridiculously flashy, with the just plain weird Neutral Special and over the top momentum mechanic that’s far faster than anyone in Smash Bros has any reason to ever go. It really does feel like it belongs with the terrible momentum sets of 11 with the likes of Rainbow Dash, Grovyle, Boom Boom, and of course the namesake of the comment. It tries to at least compensate for this even slightly with ridiculously long range hitboxes to hit foes regardless of speed, and I admit it probably works though just seems to make it overpowered. The over the top nature of the core of the set (Even with moves that are part of the projectile game, ftilt should really be a special) really makes the simplistic inputs feel very weird too – I don’t know how you expect to still go for that kind of feel after some of what’s pulled in the set.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]The follow up to Reimu is her rival Marisa, and this set is the exact opposite of Reimu in playstyle terms. Where Reimu is defensive with offensive touches, vice versa is true of Marisa and it’s definitely a very good bit of characterisation. The actual set comes down to spamming projectiles a lot, while using other set-up in the specials and smashes to reflect or rebound those projectiles back at the foe, or simply back into play. I felt where the set was at its weakest is in its attempt to try and all at once balance this spam playstyle by forcing in a mechanic here or there. I don’t like the fact she can be damaged by her own projectiles, going against the nature of Brawl projectiles and making the player too cautious about lingering projectiles to really utilize Marisa to her fullest. The whole broomstick aspect of the set is also not very interesting; it ends up just making the filler parts of the set less filler and gives some easy positioning or generic movement to the Marisa player. This one was weaker than Reimu, although still good enough to toss a vote.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Mr. Mime
Okay there is one key thing I actually did enjoy reading this set, and that was the ability to absorb the barriers to buff up your shield. That's a pretty cool mechanic and frankly I was hoping you would go anywhere with it. Well there was the DSmash getting a bigger hitbox which was... okay, though it really felt like a pretty lame utilization of the boosted shield, and then you don't even give him an interesting out of shield game to use with the buffed shield. I mean come on we just had Saber Alter last contest do plenty of fun stuff with that and this isn't a sword wielder who is very limited in what they could abuse a shield for, this is a bloody psychic. Here we make one hitbox bigger. I guess the point was to focus on the barriers, and I'll get to those in just a minute.
You see, taking on "this is invisible" does not automatically make them interesting from a playstyle standpoint, and if anything serves to just make them a lot more bloody annoying to play against since the foe will just forget where they are. It's not like you do anything with the foe not being able to see them, the most the set can think of to do with these walls is just smacking the foe into them for an annoying amount of stun and that horrible, horrible invulnerable 7 second long box from hell. I have no idea where you got the idea that sealing someone in an unbreakable box with an angry projectile was a good idea Turtles, but that is fun for absolutely no-one. And I know you have to Baton Pass to do it, but the part of that which worries me is wouldn't it be possible to just while the foe is in the box create another bloody box, put in a projectile, and switch the foe into that box repeatedly since there's not much they can do in that tiny as hell box. Meanwhile the barriers are just impassable walls if placed below him that can casually gimp people and meanwhile be used for an infinite recovery that the foe could interrupt if there wasn't a 20 stamina wall that it will take multiple aerials to destroy in the way.
It's not even like the stupid box exploit I mentioned is the only way to break this character, you can pretty casually infinite them against the walls via the throws and the set flat out admits that you can, at the very least, chaingrab them to high percents. Even back in MYM6 when we made walls to chaingrab people against they usually had limited stamina that was depleted when you smashed them into the wall. All these exploits though might come up in another set, so I could give this one a pass if it had good execution elsewhere. But when you mirror a luck based projectile onto 3 inputs, 2 of them being smashes and one being arguably the easiest aerial to write, and while improving the luck by reflecting it was actually a half decent idea, the way it's executed is very confusing and I'm not even sure if it's actually possible. There are other mirrored inputs with the panel pushing tilts and the terrible chaingrab throw, one angle-able move could probably handle all of the panel movement just fine and I've gone over why the chaingrab is problematic. It's a bit of a shame because I see decent stuff in here, but it's never capitalized on and buried in a wave of awkward gimps, stun, and wasted inputs.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Mr. ChuChus
Mr. Mime's barrier, and the idea of building a mime box to fight in, are enticing comment, but they come laden with balance problems, some of which you can fix: For example, there needs to be a way to move through them during recovery like a drop down platform, or Mr. Mime is a horrifically powerful gimper with the ability to just put a barrier above the foe and stop their attack and progress. You mention that it isn't infinite recovery because foes can hit him, but that just means it is pretty infinite if he goes to the blast zone edges or is hit there, isn't it? Especially since they stop attacks like that...finally, the idea of fighting in a mime box? Cool and in character. Baton Pass? Also a very cool move. Combining them? Put them in the Mime Box for 7 seconds and that is going to get annoying stun-y fast, as you leave them in a box while they have nothing to do. I'm also not a big fan of the chaingrab against the barriers, given his ease of doing it and how automatic it makes fighting in the mime box while active.
What do I like about this? The barriers are definitely cool as a concept and the ways you use thme here, if you leave aside the balance provblems, are okay. Baton Pass, some of the Recycle tricks, and the fighting to the death in a mime box are also all very cool ideas, and I actually like how the barriers interact with Psywaves luck...but at the same time we really didn't need that input mirrored so much and it feels more egregious in here due to Mr. Mime's fairly good potential and the easy of just making an omnidirectional F-Smash (Or omnidirectional Side Special and switch F-Smnash and SSpec). The bits of pushing around the barriers and such are also nice, though I'd like if they played more into the playstyle. I didn't really get a strong sense of it from the set.
Overall, though, the balance issues and the fact that I feel that the mirror inputs helped prevent a truly excellent playstyle from emerging, along with some poor design descisions to me, make this your first true poor grading from me. Better luck next time, and I look forward to seeing what it ends up being...and I imagine it'll be better than this.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]MIRROR GRABBER
Unlike some other movesets, the flaws with this are very apparent and have already been pointed out. I just don’t get how you are entirely aware and point out that the character has infinite recovery, chaingrabs, and putting foes in a deathbox for 7 seconds (Chained into further deathboxes) with a straight face. I can at least vaguely see how you’d be unaware of using the barriers to gimp, but it’s still not much of an excuse.
The mirrored inputs are of course the larger issue, because you’ve gone on the record as saying these are just fine and dandy. One of the main advantages of specials is for moves you’d want to use both on the ground and air (Fsmash to dair), much less moves you’d want to angle (Fsmash to usmash), which is already a feature of several –tilts- in Smash Bros already and is the obvious route to take. Aside from just eating up input space, it makes your moveset much more predictable when they are robbed of several of their moves, and makes them play in a much more one dimensional manner (Very evident for a character like Mr. Mime who happily abandons most of his set for his broken tricks).[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Lucemon
I actually found this set to be surprisingly enjoyable, mostly due to some of the stuff you do with the planets, particularly sending a laser travelling through them that you can control in some interesting ways by shattering planets and replacing them. That gets a little bit more exciting when you can add the franticness of all the planets collapsing into the sun, becoming very powerful hitboxes when they collide with it, and you can also add on shockwaves orbiting the planets or platform like extensions via the Nair. The ability to infuse the foe with light or darkness is also fun, allowing you to make the planets both more vicious as a KO move or provide yourself with a decent defensive buffer, and the throw that pushes further in either extreme can of course increase the risk-reward aspect of either end of the spectrum. It's a fun read, though there are a fair share of filler moves and the playstyle does end up feeling a little shallow when the aerial game which you play up for a lot of the moveset is as bland as it is. Still, there's definently fun to be had with the set at it's high points and at least with the worse parts of the set they take the planets and his aerial affinity into account, so it's pretty solid overall.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Lucemon...
...Quite honestly surprised me, as the playstyle went somewhere I didn't expect, but I can't complain. Unlike with Reimu, I felt myself becoming more impressed as I read, with some decisions I found questionable coming together surprisingly nicely. Move interactions are solid. The use of the planets and the sun to create unique projectiles is a breath of fresh air in this slew of giant beams and slow-moving bullets. Being able to shatter the planets is neat, and the way that the shockwaves interact with both they and the lances is creative; ditto for the Fsmash lasers interacting with the planets. The lances are probably my favorite part of the set and I wish I could've seen a bit more from them, but it's definitely not needed. The "Dead or Alive" bit of the moveset is pretty neat, trying in well to the playstyle, what with limiting knockback when needed and increasing it appropriately. Switching between light and dark and using appropriate moves is like playing Ikaruga, and it's pretty neat. While I don't feel like it subtracts anything from the playstyle, and indeed does add some depth to it, I can't help but feel that the set could be solid even without it.
Very good set, old sport.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]HEAVYWEIGHT MALE ANGEL
This is definitely my favorite of the movesets posted on opening day, and the game with the planets, hothead-esque projectiles, spears, and even the feathers is all fantastic. The Side Special and the throws that interact off of it, while not quite as connected to the main playstyle as I’d want, still does offer some simplistic flow for a more defensive character like this, and the effects are interesting enough on their own. I think the 3 generic aerials you have are somewhat necessary for the pressuring ability in the air he needs for his playstyle, up where his planets are. By contrast, the worse move are the bthrow and most of the standards, which don’t have as much excuse for being more bland. You have planets and spears to use them on if you’re looking for further context to use them in, and I don’t think the offensive elements are nearly as justified there.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]The planets in Lucemon are fun, sure, but the flow that comes out of that move is generally not all that strong. The neutral special counter (oddly placed when it could easily be switched around to be down special) actually goes against it if the foe gets underneath a planet to rebound back to the stage and it’s unlikely they would stand on a high point of stage in general when near death. The other moves that flow off the planets use them as generic chunks of rock essentially and there is little point to the Sun where it pulls in planets, there’s nothing in the set to play off the planets as these hurtling objects coming towards or away from Lucemon or his opponent. For the most part everything to do with the orbs is mostly surface-level, considering it increases or decreases KO percentages and damage for both parties. Aside from that, the moveset isn’t all that impressive. When it takes advantage of the orb mechanic it gets fairly dull just further buffing the status effect or doing a generic effect that doesn’t result in any interesting change of the match’s dynamics. I don’t hate the set, it would’ve been bordering on good if it had better input placement; a hothead on down tilt and counter on neutral special is a strange choice. The planets as chunks of earth to batter the foe through or fight upon, just using what every character is given in movement, is fun enough anyway to save the set from total mediocrity.[/collapse]
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[collapse="FrozenRoy"]The Joy of PAINting
Bob Ross is a moveset that has some fairly decent concepts in it, but left me wanting more. The painting of trees and clouds in the specials feels natural for Mr. Ross, but I would have enjoyed seeing him play around with these after making them more, like how Villager can chop down his tree but with more painting stuff. What if he had interactions that, for example, painted fruit in the trees, or made the rainstorm a thunderstorm or snowstorm? I dunno, just stuff like that in, say, the Smashes could have made it a lot more fun. The moves could have used a bit more detail, for example Forward Tilt sweetspots but we might like to know more on what the exact difference between the sweetspot and notsweetspot is (IE a new damage % and KO %), and I feel something to consider is how the melee paintbrush moves work into his game of restricting the foes space with his painted objects. I didn't really get a large sense that his moves really did much with his controlling paint-y ness aside from be moves that dealt damage. Still, better than a lot of first efforts, and I look forward to where you go from here PixelPasta.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Bob Ross
Oh welcome to MYM PixelPasta, good to see you with us after you contacted me about the contest. This isn't really a bad place to start either, you do attempt to have some actual interactions on the specials to form something of a playstyle in the use of the rainclouds to allow you to sweep up puddles and place them in more convenient spots, or using the tree to make the raincloud's hitbox harder to escape. It's pretty simple stuff, but it all feels serviceable and you don't have any immediate balance/organizational/writing problems that need working out, which makes it a decently enjoyable read. The main thing I'd like as of right now is the willingness to branch out to moves beyond the specials to support the playstyle, because you've shown you're aware of making inputs work together and interact, but it'd be nice if you could do a few things beyond the specials. Like, for example if the Up Smash shot up a glob yellow paint that would be shot down from the raincloud as a lightning bolt with high power a few seconds later, that could be fun, especially with the tree to limit their escape from that. That said, this is all stuff you can work out in your next set, for now I think this is at least a solid start.
As a minor aside, yes your set is ranked pretty low. That's mostly due to the fact that we have pretty high standards due to having been around so long, I wouldn't take it as any sort of offense or me being disappointed in your set. Just means that if you want to compete for Top 50 you have a bit further to go.[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Bob Ross
All of my love forever on this character choice.
I'm not going to go super deep into this because it's a fluffy, breezy read, but you've got loads of creativity waiting to be used on other movesets, man. This is some awesome work, even if the playstyle is pretty pretty basic. I'm really hoping you continue to grow and evolve: the main reason I'm not going to give you in-depth improvement points is because there are people far more qualified for that then I. For me, this was simply something extremely entertaining.
Geto's Bob Ross Rating: 5 happy little trees out of 5 ^^^^^[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Bob Ross
Wow, a Bob Ross moveset. Pretty interesting. Like everyone else said, this is a good first effort, but it definitely needs more development. Many moves (aerials especially) don't feel like they have a purpose or contribute much to a cohesive playstyle. The specials actually have some interactions going on, such as having the clouds wash away paint puddles, and really, the fact that they come so late in the moveset is a problem. Specials typically go first in a moveset because they set up the foundation for the character's playstyle. In Bob Ross' case, the specials are the playstyle, as there isn't any real interaction or greater function for his standards, smashes, grabs, and aerials. They really should've been listed first. There's a lack of detail for some moves, particularly aerials again, but it exists elsewhere too. For example, Neutral Special puddles are mentioned as slowing opponents who step into them, but you don't describe to what extent they are slowed, which is a big deal, not only because it helps us understand the playstyle better, but also because speed reduction has to be carefully balanced so as to not cripple the opponent too much, or alternatively, not cripple them enough for the move to be useful. There's a solid foundation here, and I do feel that there were some missed opportunities with move interactions, as the "paint the stage" playstyle could provide for a limitless amount of possibilities. For example, instead of just having Bob stick his brush upward for his Up Aerial, why not have him leave it held as he falls, creating a wall of paint that stays in the air as an actual wall? FA's recommendation for a lightning-based interaction with the clouds is another example of something that could have been done to create something more interesting and unique. There's some excellent presentation here, by the way. You really make the character come alive through the use of quotes and a fitting writing style. Put a little more detail and cohesiveness into your next set, and you'll be sure to make something great with that vividness of yours. Hope to see more of you, PixelPasta.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Kaguya
I was very very impressed by this set when I first saw the preview, and I still really love the final version even if there are a couple areas worth nitpicking which I want to get out of the way. First of all, Nair, while I admit I let it past me in previewing, makes comboing way too easy for Kaguya and has a variety of exploits that can be pulled off in 2v2 or on recovering characters that make the move uncomfortably OP. And while they were plenty interesting, a couple of the throws felt a little odd, mostly the rather inorganic nature of the FThrow status effect, though the actual gameplay of it more than makes up for it.
But that's just getting nitpicks out of the way, the approach to comboing with fields that send things instantly through them or eternally store them feels like a very natural progression from Sakuya's fields and in a good way, Eternity Fields letting you make your attacks into traps while instant fields allow you to instantly warp projectiles through them, used to particularly exciting effect in that awesome DTilt. The Eternity Lock is also really interesting, allowing Kaguya to abuse specific percents to build up damage on the foes, with benefits to them being at various different percents, or release them from the lock to extend a combo or get a KO by stacking KO move knockback. While the inputs rarely do anything extremely interesting past the first 2 specials, this is a set where context is very important and Kaguya's potential for interesting, varied combos is kind of incredible. At the same time, she doesn't really have any way to zero-death people that you'd worry about in sets with all these combo tools normally, as you practice a lot of restraint here barring the Nair. This is very much among your best, and close to Sho in terms of quality.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Kaguya
A visitor from the moon in a traditional Japanese legend? Must be...
I disagree with FA in that I believe much of your work, including Sho, is better than this, so I apologize if this clash in reception makes integrating feedback difficult for you (again, take my input with a grain of salt). There's nothing fundamentally wrong with Kaguya, aside from the Nair I suppose, which has already been pointed out. Personally, I don't think it's too bad of a problem, since it can't stack with other fields, but some number crunching on its duration or something would probably do good to fix its problem. Fundamentally, Kaguya has an intricate and deep, naturally-explorable combo game, which is something I definitely appreciate. I would, however, like to point out that my main gripe is that I feel as if the set tries to overextend itself. You get a little ambitious with the effects in the aerials, but I'd have preferred to have seen them interact with the already established effects just a little more intricately instead. Definitely nothing majorly wrong with this moveset, but overall, I find some of your other Touhou project sets to be a bit more interesting, so this one gets a little overshadowed, and I feel I won't remember it as much. Still a definite B+ at the very least.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]AERIALS
I like the concepts presented by the set in the specials, and it does a good job of following up on them with varied combos throughout most of the moveset and you know it. I will say the dsmash lost most of its point with the relevant quality of it removed for balance without anything to replace it, but the aerials are the main thing preventing this set from achieving greatness.
The nair is just a lot of bizarre exploits waiting to happen, and Uka Uka was publicly flogged in a memeish fashion over a very comparable move. Ignoring these exploits, I still hate the move because it cheapens her gameplay by accomplish too much for her all at once, all very easily. She gets free damage on the foe, positions herself around perfectly to continue her combo. She is able to punish almost any enemy meeting her in the air, and in combination with her other aerials makes her very obnoxious to play against. The dair, uair, and fair are bad on a fillerish level for copying the unique effects of each other and I already disliked them for that, but they’re also very annoyingly powerful. The fair is very comparable to Zoroark’s which I already disliked, but is worse as it lasts for 2.5 seconds and Kaguya has other moves to spam in the way of a recovering foe to create lingering hitboxes at no risk to herself. If the nair can punish anything, it’s a recovering foe, and it makes her very obnoxious at the ledge. Bair and zair aren’t broken, but are very fillerish making my have a distate for this set entirely because of this one section.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I had high hopes for Kaguya. Its main mechanic is fantastic, one of the best in the "bullet hell" genre of sets, possibly the very best. The natural way it works in weaving together both infinitely slowed down and sped up projectiles is awe-inspiring, when I read that during the initial preview my jaw dropped. The characterisation is meaty and palpable from the huge biography section down to the painstaking specials. At this point the set is basically impeccable. The multi-functional use of the time stop and ways to abuse the foe's percentage by keeping it from increasing, it's a brilliant combination that made the foundation for what could have been a great moveset.
The set for a while after the specials plays it relatively safe. The smashes are basic projectile moves to give her uses for her time stop mechanics. The standards were impressively pertinent to the whole combo-time stop dynamic. The depths you plunder with knockback, growth and combos in general is great. However, the set goes off-the-rails very hard in the grab game. The throws here are more manipulative moves instead of taking advantage of the mechanics, she doesn't need a teleporting throw, a healing throw, a damage manipulation throw. These throws are universally overwrought and poor.
The aerals may be worse. The neutral aeral has very questionable balance. Even if it is balanced, this move is very ant-fun; one of the most impressive features of the specials is how non-interfering they are, but here Kaguya freezes the foe in place for several seconds. This is no better than your hated pitfalls. Three of the aerials have mirrored effects; four of the aerials use the same prop. That doesn’t mean they’re inherently bad, but I don’t want to go on and on, needless to say I found them poorly-designed. This and the grab game come close to ruining the set all on their own.
In the end, what I actively dislike in the set is how it puts precedence on the combos over the bullet hell. There are no projectiles that aren’t simply heading in a generic direction, at best in a fan or circular pattern, which is very disappointing. I also wish you’d have gone back and edited the throws I picked apart with you in private, because as is they still have serious balance problems I don’t feel like repeating again in my comment. Nonetheless, I will certainly vote for it, but I was really banking on it being a super vote. I’d recommend you revisit the mechanic.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ProfPeanut"]BIT.TRIP BEATDOWN
CommanderVideo was always going to be a tricky design. For one thing, he's a character from a game where he's not supposed to be making mistakes. Every error kills the progress on your multiplier, and ever obstacle struck in Runner will send you back to the start. But you can't make him nigh-untouchable either in the right hands, because that would be unfair for anyone trying to fight him.
It's an issue that, if ever acknowledged, can't be solved by a simple mechanic. Yet the one provided here isn't even a perfectly-working mechanic, because it only rewards the opponent. Project:M changed Lucario's mechanic because Brawl only rewarded Lucario for not playing better than his opponent, which is kind of reversing how you want to ideally play a character. Your playstyle says, and I quote, "The key to CV is utilizing the Modes system." except that he can't. Only his foes are going to come out stronger, because in the average brawl, you're going to be taking damage in most cases anyway. Heck, shouldn't CV be able to build his meter up? That's his reward for playing well in the games, isn't it?
It's an alright set in composition. The inputs are alright, the colors are well-done without being garish, and the titles fit the theme well too. But his moveset lacks tools to bob and weave, to dodge attacks or throw them back like playing the bit.trip games would. CommanderVideo, at his core, shouldn't be void of tools to flux with the beat, yet in this incarnation, his only strategy is to play the runner.[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]CommanderVideo
Well warm welcomes to you, crazyal02! Commander video is certainly a colorful character! I'd like to start off by saying I quite like the mechanic in place here, the modes that gradually get weaker as the fight goes on. Cool stuff there. The smashes and tilts aren't very interesting, but ooh boy do you have fun with those aerials and a few of the throws, which are based around moving enemies around and taking as little damage as possible. Unfortunately, that interesting mechanic really explored in depth in this set, though you do acknowledge it a few times. While I can't say I "like" this moveset, I CAN say that it has lots of creativity! I'd encourage you to talk to some MYMers and read sets to channel that creativity into something really cool! I'd love to see what you could do with a focused moveset!
GETO'S COMMANDER VIDEO RATING: 1 RAINBOW OUT OF 1 IIIIIII[/collapse]
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[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Doraemon
Welcome to you too, ClubbyBear! I unfortunately haven't heard of this character before, but he certainly looks like something else! With all of those pictures, I can certainly see that you have a love for this character! The moves themselves are all fine, they seem like they fit him, but the problem here is that he has no flow, or central goal behind the moves, besides the obvious doing damage and KOing. When you have a moveset, it's great to really get inside the character's mind and think "what would they do to try to win this match?". For a cowardly character, it might help to have moves designed to help him in attacking and then run away. I'd reccommend the same as I did to crazyal and say that you should read more sets by veterans andtalk to some established MYMers to help get your ideas out, really make something super incredible for all of the characters you love!
GETO'S DORAEMON RATING: GOOD AS A GOOD BASEBALL GAME[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Doraemon
Welcome to MYM ClubbyBear! Doraemon is a character I'm not sure anyone else is really familiar with, but I recognize him at least, and I think a few other MYMers know at least a little bit about the character, if that's something you were worried about. I'd recommend you try using some bbcode and image editing software, even a free website like imgur to scale down images and spruce up your moveset, it's a bit of a mess to read through, and probably part of the reason you haven't gotten much of a response yet from anyone on your set.
As for the set itself, it's got some decent creativity for a first-time set. The Dokodemo door is the most interesting move in the set, as both Doraemon and other players can use it. It would have been nice to expand on how Doraemon could use it to his advantage, if opponents followed him through and he attacked them back for trying to do so. Ideas like that are fun to include in moves... not just what they do, but how they're useful. Some people like to save all that information for a separate playstyle section though, it's up to you. Unfortunately, a lot of the rest of the set falls a bit flat... people aren't generally fans of movesets that pull out random props to attack with, although with Doraemon you didn't have much else of a choice. There could have been some more thought put into each individual move though... the aerials are all the same extender punch, in different directions.
There's also a tragic lack of juicy details in these moves. You neglect to mention, for instance, how much damage many moves do, including the all-important neutral special, or what it means for a player to be 'paralyzed'. Is it identical to Zero Suit Samus's paralyzer? At what charge? Questions like this should be answered by your writing. You also completely missed adding a section for Doraemon's grab and throws... those are considered essential for a moveset to be considered complete, so you might want to add some in for that.
All in all, the best recommendation I have is to read more movesets, emulate what they do successfully, and improve with your next entry. Good luck![/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Tepig
I can tell that you definitely love the character you chose for this set. It's what your name is after all, Tepig. And you definitely spared no effort in finding images for every single attack that Tepig uses, which is impressive in its own way. I'd recommend using smaller images next time if possible though, the images you chose are a bit big. Also, a bit problematically, only one image is actually of Tepig! It becomes a bit problematic, because imagining a Tepig performing Sucker Punch and an Absol performing Sucker Punch are two very different things... or a Lucario using Double-Edge, for that matter. Having images is great and all, but only when they really help understand what your vision of the moveset is.
What I really took away from reading this set though is that you had lots of ideas... creative ideas too. There's plenty of interesting moves and interesting Pokemon attacks being used here... but that came at the cost of really losing the vision of what made this a moveset for Tepig. It looks like you scrolled down a list of moves that Tepig could use, and picked an input and effect for each one... moves like the forward tilt, Round, are pretty egregious examples. It's a very easy, cheep creativity, and it makes it hard to imagine this set as a moveset for Tepig, as opposed to any other Pokemon that can learn these moves. For that reason, it's important, when making a moveset for a Pokemon, to not just use Pokemon moves willy-nilly, but focus on what the Pokemon's personality and characteristics are, and choose moves that emphasize that. Without it, you get a messy set like Tepig, where nothing sticks together into a cohesive fashion. Lots of flashy attacks here, but no playstyle.
All that being said, I think there's definitely potential here for you to improve with your next set if you focus on thinking of a more central idea or playstyle to start with, and avoid using Pokemon moves on every input like you have here. In MYM talk, we sometimes call this 'Pokemon Syndrome' and it is sort of frowned upon. No sweat though, this was your first moveset. I'm looking forward to seeing what you put out next.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Nightmare
Nightmare is pretty admirable for a first effort, with a lot of thought put into it obviously. Something I will say is that while having lots of video references is fun, most of us aren't going to go back and recheck every video, especially when you already do a pretty good job at explaining animations in the moveset proper anyway. That's certainly a strength of your that's apparent: you're good at giving exactly what detail we need to understand what"s going on in a move at any given time. You even have a tangible playstyle at the ready, one that makes sense for the character, and is, while not very complex, obviously a focus point of the set. You've got some seriosu potential here, man, keep it up, read, maybe preview any new movesets to some of the leaders and I think you've got a bright MYMing future ahead of you.
GETO'S NIGHTMARE RATING: AS MANY MOVES WITH THE WORD "SOUL" IN THEM AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Rosalina
Wow, just wow, Nintendotard. For a first moveset, hell for any moveset, this is very good. You've got a very good grip on a number of fundamental setmaking skills, notably your focus on playstyle, your writing, and your presentation. You've got a great voice in this, being at once funny, warm, and good at getting information across. The most you could do from here is refine, refine, refine: I'll give the same advice to you I gave the others: talk to veterans, preview your movesets to leaders, and then read, read, read. You've got a load of potential and I hope you keep writing in this contest!
GETO'S ROSALINA RATING: LUUUUUUUUUMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]@
Nintendotard I did read Rosalina, so I'll give a few thoughts on that set. I felt that the Hungry Luma was a good concept but could've easily been more ambitious. If you consider that Lumas turn into entire galaxies in Mario Galaxy, it's a bit underwhelming that here it's only an explosion. The rest of the set equally had fun ideas but didn't fully deliver on their ambitious potential. However, you obviously put a good deal of effort into the set and I enjoyed some of the core, I just felt it could've had a stronger central playstyle. After the specials, the moves don't - and can't really because of the limited uses of the Luma and other specials - flow into the rest of the set all that strongly. It is very imaginative, I'd just recommend that you read some other sets in the contest to get a better handle on how to better focus that creativity.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Lumatic
One of the biggest things I was looking for in Rosalina is the ability to feed star bits to your Lumas: Considering they eat Star Bits this would have been a logical addition to the moveset and improved some Luma interactions like the explosion and maybe added some more flow to the moves or allowed more design space for the Lumas, for example giving them some different effects during attacks based on how much the Luma has eaten. I also actually like the Star Bit Shower, however there doesn't seem to be a lot with the set that particularly likes it's suppressive abilities aside from the Down Smash Black Hole. Overall, though, Rosalina's problems mostly just come from a lack of experience in moveset making: I feel it is the kind of set one could come back to later in their career and make a good set out of. Particular areas of weakness are the smash attacks, they feel like they deal a low amount of damage for their knockback and could use a bit moore oomph to be smash attacks (Mostly Up Smash on that last one): The throws are generally not working into her game, as I can tell, and have some balance issues.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Commander Keen
This set does seem like a step up from Steve in that it has a couple neat ideas, albeit I don't feel they were fully taken advantage of. The Neutral Special bomb is plenty of fun with how it can increase its knockback each time it's thrown and can also be picked up and thrown again after the initial toss, allowing for plenty of interesting strategies with using this one input. Do you intentionally miss with it to keep it from falling into the foes hands and power it up, or just use it as a straight projectile, where do you place it on the stage, it makes for some fun decision making. Having a very powerful footstool jump isn't a bad idea, although it feels weird when you have the DSpecial use the same item and the effect is different(and were it the same, it'd also be kind of stupid, given having a move redundant with your second jump isn't exactly a good idea).
What I don't like about this set comes down to the fact that, while I could just give you the standard thing about how your attacks don't work off the Neutral Special and mechanic as much as they should(I'd like it if you made attacks which more clearly had those moves in mind), what I mostly dislike about the set is the sheer amount of stuns. The Side Special one isn't terrible, but having a sweetspot that just stuns for a full second on DTilt is kind of objectionable, and it gets worse with Fair and Dair. Fair is extremely broken as a gimping tool, instant killing any foe off the edge of the stage and even when it's not it is another full second stun, and Dair is the absolute worst part of the set in that it requires KEEN to do the job of breaking them out. The foe is literally stuck forever until Keen deals them the requisite 17%, making it a horrid stalling tactic and kind of gamebreaking. For what it's worth if you made the rest of his moves work more directly off that Neutral Special and jump mechanic and removed those stuns, I might have liked this set, but as it has some big issues that need working out.
Also, as far as reference frames for knockback, the same knockback as an attack that deals X% damage is a really bizarre one and I would recommend against it and just using a KO percent, which gives everyone a perfectly fine idea of what's going on. Your numbers could be improved a bit too, as fun as the NSpecial bombs are they really need to be able to KO people to make the mechanic interesting and KOing at 210% is a poor KO move at best, while you reference one of the throws as having the knockback of an attack that deals 65%. There are final smashes that don't do that much damage man.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Junahu"]Zoroark:
You have a talent with Pokemon that no other MYMer posesses, which makes it something of a joy to read your movesets. Of course, it also helps that you put actual effort into the reading experience, as opposed to slapping giant images around run-on sentences and calling it 'presentation'.
I simply must applaud the moveset's introduction, playing on not only Zoroark's ability (relative to your moveset) but also the rivalry that his fans have with Lucario supporters. Your organisation is also clean and well spaced, with the awkwardly indented context up special being the only jarring element (though it seems to be deliberately so, in order to draw the reader's attention)
It takes some reading between the lines to figure out that Illusionary Damage applies to your double teams Zoroarks, but not to an invisible player Zoroark when his initial illusion is still active. Some additional explanation on this front would help a lot.
Gameplay-wise, Zoroark is very tight, and adheres to the way he functions in the Pokemon games. Someone else will probably elucidate on Zoroark's quality as a moveset, and you already know full well how Zoroark works; so I won't bother to talk about it. It's all very clever gameplay, albeit frustrating for the opponent when push comes to shove.
Zoroark is bit of a masterclass on the sheer potential of a handheld Smash Bros game. With a private POV for every player, there'd no need for such archaic concessions as button combos to secretly select the character, or invisibility that isn't announced properly to the player using it.
Invisibility is fun in theory, but grossly impractical otherwise. But having a personal screen with your character clearly shown would aleviate that issue (at the miniscule cost of losing that oh-so tedious meta of the keeping-track-of-your-invisible-self gameplay)
Given that Katapultar JUST gave Flamethrower as an example of a pokemon syndrome-eske move that shouldn't be coming out of the mouth of most Pokemon, it's surprising to see Zoroark embrace that syndrome as a means of expressing character. It's clever, albeit too roundabout for the average player. The players who would care most about characterisation won't be the kinds to observe the language of illusion you use. Invisibility and clones are self evident expressions of illusion, flames that heal off their damage after the fact are much more hazy.?[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]STILL BETTER MASCOT THAN LUCARIO
Zoroark is a pretty fun moveset based off invisbility and duplicates. I find Junahu insulting the difficulty of using the invisibility fairly offensive when it was actually handled here very well in terms of its ease of use, with Zoroark not having to know where he is with moves that home in on the enemy, not being able to walk off ledges, and even bothering to address Junahu’s pet peeve of name tags. It’s something I’ve dabbled in with my most recent moveset and I respect what you did with it. I also thought the way to choose him from the select screen was intuitive enough, what with Z for Zoroark and what-not. The addition of letting him play as any enemy at start, not just his enemy, brings a lot of depth to his game and can give him more interesting options if he, say, plays as another invisibility based character or produces some lingering objects to make use of. The illusion damage I like along with an actual illusion move in the flame breath felt a lot more natural than it could be, I actually think the flavor of the set is very good for the character/abilities.
The moves actually flow a fair bit better than I was expecting after getting past the specials, with the aerials being the only moves I especially want thrown out. Aside from aerials, dsmash and uthrow also feel a bit pointless, and Side Throw could still be selected in another way. Side Throw still serves any purpose and feels good regardless, it’s mainly the aerials that are keeping me from loving the set. Outside of just being filler, I actually actively dislike the fair, as it’s a cloned version of the ftilt and just feels too powerful in the air. Spamming these in the way of a foe’s recovery path off-stage just sounds outright obnoxious, especially if the AI partners help.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Zoroark
This set's been fairly popular as of late and thinking on it I understand why it's so well liked a fair bit better. The use of invisibility and duplicates is very intuitive and in smash, which is usually one of the most prominent problems with invisibility based sets, and it ends up being both easy to pick up and play as well as having a decent bit of depth to it, what with abusing the early disguise for some possible set ups and kills or disguising yourself as one of your AI duplicates. There's some interesting stuff even beyond the specials here, what with the possibility of invisible lingering hitboxes(though the Fair probably shouldn't have one for reasons Warlord pointed out), hit and run with the Up Smash which flows fairly well into the various ways Zoroark has to hide and disguise himself, and the mirrored F/BThrow for the ability to re-disguise yourself.
What I don't like comes down to 2 things. I feel that while a lot of moves are good for utilizing the various mindgames, a lot of them like the Down Smash and most of the aerials/standards barely acknowledge that they exist. I'm not saying I want dense move interactions on this set or anything, that's hardly even possible on a Pokemon set and that's not the kind of appeal it's going for, but I feel like at least having the move be easier to sweetspot if the foe can't see you or have some sort of special trick you can pull in conjunction with the invisibility would be cool. What actually bothers me more than though, is that while you created a very intuitive system for the disguise to work, the fact that Zoroark can potentially capitalize on it to the point of achieving KOs, fully replicating their recovery which in many cases is far better than his, among other things feels very wrong to me, there are some things characters can perform which are outside the bounds of his power and the sheer "realness" of the illusion makes him awkwardly nigh-omnipotent with it, rather than the intended nature of being just a fake. It's a sacrifice for gameplay sure, something I entirely respect, but all the same it makes absolutely no sense, which is a shame when the set is otherwise very solid aesthetically.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]A true Joe set, Zoroark is in-smash and innovative at the same time, being a perfect candidate set for Smash 4. The way the character is selected is one of those ideas in the back of all our minds probably for years, but you finally take it off the shelf and do a wonderful job. Zoroark feels truly mysterious without being awkward; it’s the kind of execution you can see Sakurai going for on a very creative day. The way that duplicates spawn, lead to the great illusionary moves that don’t seem like a shot in the dark for a searching foe, nor do they lead down one alleyway of 0-death move interactions as has been the pitfall of some duplicate sets in the past. It’s all straightforward but leaves room for a creative player to have fun. It’s not the most ambitious set, but nailed what it set out to do in typically able form for your sets.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Zorroark
Zoroark's disguise mechanic is fairly smart, tackling how to allow Zoroark to select a disguise without giving yourself away is done fairly nicely, and the idea is a winner that will probably be revisted at some point by someone because it has some good untapped design space. One thing I feel is that illusionary damage fades a bit too quick: Something like 6-8% per second might be better to allow Zoroark to better take advantage of the illusionary damage. Double Team is a neat move and I personally quite enjoy Pursuit, especially in the context of your illusion clones, I also feel Foul Play is awesome and Night Daze is okay. The standards are okay, but the smashes can feel a bit iffy: Down Smash really feels too similiar to Night Daze and could have been used in a more efficient manner and while I enjoy Flamethrower's effect the use of illusions here feels a bit odd mostly on the basis it really isn't used much this way elsewhere, and it can feel a bit odd to pump out suddenly on a smash, along with the question of if it fits with the rest of the set. Up Smash is good.
The aerials, to me, were one of the most iffy parts of the set: I feel Up Aerial clashes with Flamethrower a good deal and it doesn't feel like a good move, I like FAir/DAir a good deal but the rest of the aerials felt quite stale and not up to the more nice and smooth standards of the...uh...Standards. The throws are a good idea but the Side Throw really should have just been a single throw or used on a different input, say a Command Grab, as sacrificing a throw to it really doesn't feel good to me. The other two are fine but that's around it. Overall, though, Zoroark was an enjoyable and fairly well balanced set with moves and concepts I enjoyed, especially the trickery of the Specials combined with the smooth physical Standards and some of the Smashes/Aerials, a very RV-ish set I feel. It was also a very Zoroark-ish feeling set, aside from Flamethrower and the Up Aerial feeling out of place.[/collapse]
[collapse="Bionichute"]Not Lucario:
I must say that I love the opening fake out, very clever use of the character (And by extension the set's) main gimmick, and his fan's rivalry with Lucario's fans.
I... can't really say I'm fond of his gimmick, however. Well, the fake out select screen is neat, but the Illusion Damage just seems rather pointless to me. I guess I just don't see the point of dealing damage that won't stay, especially when the illusion can be broken so easily, you might as well just make it not do any damage at all, or at least keep all damage done while in the illusion.
Double Team is also another weird move. There's nothing wrong with it conceptually, but it just has a few kinks in it that make it... not that great. The main problem comes down to the clone itself, since it is a 100% identical copy of Zoroark. The first issue comes with the invisibility, as you don't really describe whether or not you can actually see the invisible character, like with a Cloaking Device, but considering Zoroark's play style, I would assume that he is 100% invisible. This can cause a lot of problems, mainly the fact that it's very hard to do something like that in a 4 player match. It'd just be the player trying desperately to keep track of his character and not the copy, and no, naturally stopping at edges doesn't stop this from being a problem, it just stops it from being completely asinine. The second problem is a bit less irritating, with it really coming down to why having an identical clone would be confusing. It has the same problems as the invisible version, but only slightly less bad.
Sorry, but Pursuit is just a really bad move, with absolutely nothing to redeem it aside from the neat visuals and it kinda atleast being a recovery, but even then it's a really bad recovery. The move also seems like it should really be on a different input, maybe a side special or a smash, but not an up special. Faint Attack is also fairly lazy, as it isn't even really an attack, just another way for Zoroark to turn invisible. It probably would have been better to have Zoroark turn invisible after rolling, so it can cause damage and be a means of invisibility. Foul Play seems like a neat idea, but it's equally as useless as the normal one. Having to wait around while a computer does it's thing harkens back to Battleheart, except with a little more control. It's not even a good KO move in anything but stock, as a timed match would take almost the entire match just to get one kill off. Night Daze is a really boring move, but it's by far the best special, mainly because it is rather simple, mainly just being Zoro's main method of KOing, and even shrouding the arena in darkness can be useful, but unfortunately it falls prey to the same problem that Double Team had, in not actually being to able to see where Zoro is while in the darkness.
Fury Swipes is a perfectly acceptable jab, with no real problems among it, other than it just being rather simple but oh well. Shadow Claw tries to have something interesting to it, but raises a certain problem, in that a second REALLY isn't that long of a time, no matter how fast the move is. It really should have probably been boosted to at least 2 seconds iin order to make it a viable trap. The move also doesn't really fit with the rest of Zoro's play style, as it seems to fit a standard trap character more than it does the cerebral Zororark. Scratch, like Fury Swipes, is perfectly acceptable, but just not very interesting, though bringing up Meta Knight at all makes it feel overpowered, even if it really isn't. Shadow Ball is the first move that I can say I mostly liked, seeing how it makes an interesting use of what otherwise could have been a standard projectile, and is just a decent move all around. However, giving the move the wind up and lag of a smash (Even if it is powerful for a tilt) just makes all practicality go out the window. Night Slash is another good move, and is probably the best move so far, as it has no visible problems, and has some real skill required to use it.
Flamethrower is a strange move. While it does manage to break away from the dreaded Pokemon Syndrome and have an interesting use for what could have been fairly generic, the move just doesn't seem very useful at all. Having most of the hitbox dedicated entirely to the already problematic Illusion Damage, and only giving a small bit very close to Zoro actual real damage, which isn't even up to standards with most other smashes, just kinda makes the move pointless for anything but a scare tactic. I honestly don't know what to think of U-Turn. On one hand it's certainly unique for an up smash, but on the other, it feels, like most of Zoro's moves, fairly useless. Having an up smash that doesn't even really attack UP is incredibly problematic, and one that's capable of going off edges (You don't say that it stops at ledges or anything) is just going to be more of a pain than any fun. You say that Dark Pulse is almost like an alternate version of Night Daze, but in reality, it's almost entirely better. It does more damage, is faster, and can KO earlier than it, with it's only real downside is it being entire locked to the ground, which isn't a big enough downside to truly make all the upsides worth less.
Slash Wheel is another good, but uninteresting move, which basically only acts as a neutral air, and really nothing else. Dark Claws mainly suffers from the same problem Shadow Claw has, in that the traps don't last nearly as long as they really should, but otherwise is a perfectly acceptable move. Shadow Slash is also a good move, also having no real problems except for not fitting in with the main aspect of the set. The same can be said for Snarl and Shadow Assault, which suffer from the same problems, as the previous moves: They don't play into the gimmick at all. I ask you, why make something fairly interesting for a set, but then do basically nothing with it? It just seems odd to me.
Punishment is an average pummel, and, unless you're Warlord, it's very hard to make an interesting pummel, though you don't even list the percentage for it, which is... odd. Eviscerate and Slash are also just very generic grabs, though they still manage to be good moves nonetheless. Dark Illusion is... the first move to actually make use of Zoro's main gimmick in awhile, wow! I actually really like this move, as it not only plays into Zoro's main style, but it portray's the trickster nature of the character very well.
Overall, Zoroark is a very mixed character, unfortunately having more for my to complain about than there is for me to like. For the positives, I can give the organization a thumbs up, as it uses the character's colors very well, and has a few gifs to show off some of the moves. There are also some REALLY good ideas in there as well, as the invisibility and copying mechanics COULD work out very well if fleshed out a bit more.
On the negative side, however, there is a lot more. First, most moves are incredibly generic, not really playing into the main idea of the set, and most of them wind up being forgettable because of it. Another problem is the gimmicks themselves, as some of the ideas in them seem fairly problematic if you imagine them in Brawl (Or Project M), and in the end it winds up feeling very rushed, and considering you said that you finished this in one sitting, it very well might be that you rushed it out.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Thrall
Really, absolutely no-one comments the most recent Warlord set? It's a bit of a shame too, because while Thrall is admittedly playing straight camper, the set does a lot of interesting things with that concept. His most clear cut camping projectile in DTilt is actually a little tricky to straight up camp with and has to be used smartly and along with that it goes well with his terraforming, while he has the fun mechanics of utilizing wolves, both visible and invisible, to carry him and raiders around. It is a little disjointed admittedly, what with it trying to focus on wolves, terraforming, camping, and wolf invisibility, it really doesn't go as far with any of them as it could have had the set focused a little more on a smaller number of individual concepts. That said, it's still pretty fun, and the boss mode really improved my opinion of the set, with the options for 3 different kinds of mounts and raiders giving some incredibly varied options, and the Kodo Beasts do some enjoyable things with the concept of being in 3v1. Good work on this one Warlord.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Seeing those revisions of Thrall that I did, it can’t be understated the vast improvements the set went through to the point that, even with a fairly simplistic type of playstyle, individual moves are very balanced. That integral balance is what makes this set a pretty decent generic camper, as if it was anything less than impeccable, it’d quickly sink into being forgettable. Largely the set is full of effects that will temporarily change the paradigm of battle in a heartbeat; swamping the foe with status effects, minions, created walls and many projectiles, but if this was only lazily implemented it’d show. Not only is it a show of dedication to being in-smash, but doing so in spite of a character who loves to spam magic or summons. The actual effects in the set do get rather fun most of the time as well, the minions, the chain lightning, the lightning orbs and so on. This is complimented by the individual melee or barely disjointed hitboxes that give Thrall good coverage or simply allow for a better position in important situations. The third important part is the moves that tend to rip off Pikachu, giving Thrall a bevy of long-range attacks and magic to supplement his camping.
It is basic stuff, but done in a tremendously sleight-handed way. That’s my one overall criticism with the set, it doesn’t flow into itself that well, but more into the idea of being a camper. Thrall is helped out by the great boss mode which adds a whole lot to the character beyond his tutorial character status and truly showcases his leadership of the horde, adding tonnes of very fun interactions. The fact he is a starter character to introduce the player to Warcraft 3 is a good reason for him to employ a straightforward playstyle. It’s not one that is immediately fascinating or ends up getting as much work out of the material as, for example, Sloth, but it’s a legitimately original set that knows what it is, where it’s going and why it exists in a fundamental way that is usually brushed under the rug. People who want to make generic campers, projectile spammers or trap setters would benefit from reading this set to understand how to do that in an appropriate style.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Power of the Horde
My favorite parts of Thrall were the more simple and elegant melee games and lightning shenanigans. I quite enjoy the Chain Lightning Neutral Special, it reminds me of a really old move I had in Zombie Master, though it could probably use a little ending lag. I also quite enjoy the Side Smash's take on Earthshaking, the Spirit Wolf minions are also nice and the raiders feel nice with their nets and more simple moves...but 65 HP is too much when Thrall is a competent fighter in his own right and can summon many minions, terraform and throw out projectiles. Also, terraforming a pillar horizontally above a foe who is recovering seems positively fiendish and possibly not in a good way.
However, to me, the best part of the moveset was the wonderful smashes. The Forward Smash's ability to combine the wolf's pounce with Thrall's aerials is pretty wonderful and the use on your other wolves is enjoyable. I tend to enjoy Thunder-esque attacks when they fit the playstyle and the Up Smash fits the bill when combined with Thrall's terraforming, ability to dual attack with wolves, move while attacking and controllers such as Down Smash. Down Smash is the kind of move that could be a large part of a set via Specials and is one of the reasons I like Thrall so much: The ability to play lightning pool with it and Chain Lightning tickles my fancy, much in the way Doc Scratch's pool balls did but with better execution. The way all of these games are able to work into Thrall's more aggro playstyle, with some control mixed in, is preferrable to me than Thrall's sometimes more bland camping, as Thrall can zoom around with Pounce, constrict space with his lightning while launching assaults and diving in with his wolves, combined with tricks like waiting F-Smash wolf minions. The grab gets more iffy: I don't enjoy the pummel much at all while I very much enjoy the Forward Throw and it's usages as a consistant threat and like how you made it so the foe can outsmart it, but they must be aware of how Thrall can take advantage at the moment. Down Throw is a very cool move, reminds me of one of the few good parts of my Mokou preview, but the B-Throw is only okay and I very much dislike the Up Throw as it not only feels odd but also diminishes your pillar creating special.
The standards are generally all good, solid stuff: I'm very fond of the Forward Tilt and it's take on Thunder Jolt, but I feel Down Tilt much have been much better off as a more direct move rather than the trap-making spike, especially since it opens up potential silliness with hitting them back to you + multiple minions and more annoying shenanigans in the ledge that aren't as enjoyable as, say, Forward Smash off said ledge. The aerials are similiar to the standards with okay mixed with some good and bad: I'm fond of the Up Aerial and Neutral Aerial, but the BAir feels unnecessary and maybe even somewhat playstyle detractive with the psuedo-stun flinch and the Down Aerial is sort of eh. You'll notice I spend a lot of time talking about Thrall's more aggressive uses of his moves: That is because I find this is not only a perfectly valid use of Thrall's moves, which contain some good melee moves mixed in with plenty of agressively-usable projectiles and stuff like Side Smash and many minions that want to be more aggressive, but also because I do find Thrall's actual camping game rather...eh, not bad, but not particularly great, with more iffy flow and less interesting uses of his moves. It also loses many of the cool elements of Thrall being a mounted character in his more campish phases.
special request was asked to talk about Thrall's boss mode. Personally, I feel it did not particularly add nor detract from the set: The amount of work done into it is obvious and I like that, but I also disliked the Kodo Beast (See Don Thousand for how a set can much better work the "attack this thing" and also it's mostly a cage) and the minions felt...not bad, but just okay, probably should have done more on a boss. In addition, I feel a lot more oppourtunity could have been used to explore Thrall riding the new beasts, which I did not feel it was. Finally, the boss mode most heavily emphasizes what to me were the most boring elements of Thrall, which means I wasn't all that excited for what I saw. If it wasn't obvious from the rest of the comment though, I had lots of Thrall I liked.[/collapse]
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[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Profiteur
I noticed that there's been some mixed reactions about Profiteur, which is good. A nice, healthy diversity of opinions is usually something I welcome. I'm personally of the opinion that the set manages to be both highly clever and a bit messy. What I mean by that is this: Profiteur successfully juggles a surplus of ideas and pockets them into a workable playstyle, but at the same time, some of these ideas appear to devalue the characterization just a bit, putting a tax on the overall integrity of it. Generating money while shielding, for example, seems a bit odd, and while I admit I haven't played the game (though I'm interested; how is it anyway?) it just seems to be stretching way too much logic for my tastes. Similarly, I feel that other such oddities hinder the set's effectiveness. The way that shielding adds more cash to a pile for every pg earned feels like a clunky concept that isn't overall too necessary in the long run, and having to pay the Ciggma Knight for something as essential as recovering seems a bit crippling, even for a character who's obviously designed to be rescinded when the opponent plays well/the player plays poorly.
That being said, Profiteur is surely not bankrupt of good ideas, and of the many things it does well, I believe it does so rather excellently. A very deep psychological game is developed by the grab game, indebtedness, and the cash pick-up mechanic. Forcing enemies to shield as they slow down and become more susceptible to attack makes for an excellent opportunity to grab repeatedly, which is obviously something that Profiteur wants to do in order to pile on massive debt and make the most of his Bthrow. The set is altogether well interconnected, much like any complex and thriving economy, what with a setback or gain in one part of the playstyle affecting everything else in Profiteur's standing during a match, and I find that really cool. Profiteur match-ups in particular are very amusing. 1v1 sees the villain, much like an exploitative boss, trying to compete against his opponent by accumulating enough wealth to stay comfortably in control. Dittos instead play out more like an effort between two businesses to sabotage one another, and free-for-alls capture the spirit of an over-saturated market where the two largest firms try to squeeze out the weaker ones before turning on one another. Based on the playstyle, I imagine a doubles match with two Profiteur on the same side would resemble a massive conglomeration attempting to simply drown out the enemy with absolutely insane amounts of capital. These interactions are the highlight of the set, which goes a long way in demonstrating the brilliant characterization at play here, and the very well thought-out implementation of an economical playstyle into the Smash formula. Despite a few minor gripes with how it's handled, the characterization and intended playstyle really shine through here.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]PAY TO PLAY
This is a very uncomfortable set, there’s a lot to like but it’s a very strange ride through with the raw tackiness. Some of it seems to just be from the character with raw magical manipulation over money, but the weirdest part is how Profiteur has to bring the foe into this mess. Forcing them to subconciously steal money and have that strange mechanic when they shield is where my tolerance for the tacky ends. Beast characters are amongst the weirdest to picture fighting the character, and I agree with Bridges that he’s rather impractical to play for a set made by you. Potentially banning his recovery of all things without the needed capital, needing extensive set-up. . .Sure, he has plenty of hitboxes thrown around throughout his set, but they’re not all that great at getting him the space needed for set-up to get lots of separate piles. If he wants to get money on the stage, he’s going to be very behind in damage percentage. . .But he can kill people with next to no damage with enough set-up, so it kind of works balance wise, if very bizarre for a Junahu set.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on the raw magic and destruction of physics in the set. The more questionable things are just which input does what for gameplay purposes, making him more difficult to play and making him feel less like a Junahu set. Why does only jab make them drop coins? Why do certain moves make coins explode forever and others not? Why do only dtilt and uair knock coins up into the air? The moveset makes a lot of mechanics that make sense, like how coin piles are passively flattened out or built up by how foes walk into them, so it could use a more consistent way for how attacks react to it and just giving him some moves that specifically are designed to work with those mechanics, rather than being the only arbitrary moves that move coins. Regardless of all this, it still flows and has a vaguely interesting playstyle, so I like it, but as said, it’s a very strange set.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Profiteur
The problems with this set have been pretty much told to you over and over again, it's a really really tacky moveset where the moves all operate on extremely selective logic. It's hardly offensive in it's tackyness as it doesn't really mistreat the foe's characterization and the powers all feel like stuff that makes some degree of sense on the character, but at the same time the sheer amount of awkward logic makes him feel like he'd be nigh impossible to pick up and play, especially when using a move without the right set up can flat out destroy his gameplan.
I do think that's a shame because once you get past that, Profiteur does a lot of small things with ammo bank that really add up to it being a very enjoyable set. I actually like the bit where he actively wants his shield broken as it can give him a massive boost to his wealth, and the minion, while simple, can be applied to his set in some very interesting ways. I also like that building up all this cash does feel extremely rewarding, in that the attacks that expend it in large amounts or give it over to the foe do a huge amount of damage and knockback, making the fact that you can lose a lot of it in one go into a fairly high risk, high reward game. What does interfere with my ability to really enjoy the set is that a lot of the time, is that the bit where the attacks can really ruin his set-up if you use them at the wrong time, and should he fall under pressure he may just have to choose between not defending himself properly or having his set up destroyed. Which is a shame, because aside from that the interactions with the coin piles and the way the way you handle ammo bank mechanics is very interesting, but I can't wholeheartedly endorse it due to the issues with tackiness and his difficulty in properly using his set up(though to a degree it does create some good risk-reward, at least).[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]A cool promotional set for Bravely Default, Profiteur is a good set for manipulating the money flow in a match. I don’t think it bears repeating the criticism about the set’s very strange ways of creating the coins, but I will hone in on the aspects of it I didn’t like just to get it out of the way. I didn’t think it was necessary to place so many rules on the creation or flow of coins. It’s an odd blend of zero-sum economics and wealth creation, where Profiteur has a limited sum of money, but not really, if you do these general actions but only if you do them in this way. I’d have preferred if the set dropped all of that for a streamlined version of the money system and I don’t believe it would detract from the playstyle’s focus on managing the money, if anything it may help to doubly focus on the aspects of it that isn't simple micro-management, and define the character of Profiteur.
That’s a large part of the set’s criticism out of the way. The ammo happily abused to create ridiculously strong attacks is the real fun of the set and is a triumph for the set’s characterization. The reward of building up a ‘pg’ stockpile to KO the foe at absurd percentages is given an awesome dichotomy when you weigh it against the constant threat of bankruptcy and the expense needed to auto-win the match. Nonetheless, winning the match purely on gathering together a gigantic swelling of money is possible, that possibility is where the set shines brightest. To wipe the floor with the opponent based on basic camping would be very satisfying. The set also comes up with a tonne of imaginative ways to interact using the pg, which are, for the most part, well done. Some interactions are borderline, such as obsessively sectioning off money into separate piles, or the variety of ways to push it around, although that arguably adds to the set’s charm. And it’s certainly not a set without its fair share of charm. This was a very fun moveset.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Profiteur? I hardly know 'er!
You'be received pretty good feedback on Profiteur already, so I may sound a bit like I am repeating other comments on this set, but one of the chief problems with Profiteur is some scattershot logic in it: The way that Profiteur's coins sometimes act totally different is odd and stuff like his coins magically generating from his shield is...odd, along with the fact that sometimes he seems more like an earth manipulator using money over solid ground. I do like how Pay to Play is an interesting use of the money mechanic: Khint's ability to attack alongside Profiteur is amusing, as that seems to be something cropping up a lot this MYM (Thrall, Profiteur and Youmu off the top of my head all have this ability), but it is annoying that he is on an Up Special, especially since it costs cash to attack with him in addition to keeping him out, and the attacks are quite pricy in addition. Some of the attacks are also on a bit of odd inputs, Up Tilt for example. At the same time, Profiteur's game of managing money with a keep away style is fairly well handled, Forward Smash is pretty good and I do love the Up Smash interaction with Khint and the normal hitbox as well, one of my favorites in the set for that. Profiteur really does not seem the cane pogo type. I like how the grab and Pummel interact in Profiteur vs. Profiteur matches, though the pummel is iffier in non-mirrors but I do enjoy things that make mirrors interesting, the grabs are all okay save for the odd Up Throw. Overall a fairly nice set that I find enjoyment in the mirror match of.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Doopliss
Doopliss is not a very good set I'm afraid. The concepts you've introduced are neat enough, but they aren't executed in an effective way. Doopliss's main draw, the ability to turn himself into the foe while retaining his abilities, is laughably easy to defeat. Since the transformation ability is both telegraphed and shieldable, any mid-level player at least will be able to always dodge or shield the attack and effectively neuter Doopliss. It's even worse with how hard it is to land the move. A thirty second penalty for a missed chance ensures that he'll only get one chance per stock, and with him being knocked out of it at 20% damage he won't stay in the state long at all. Even then, Doopliss's advantages are pretty meager, not enough to really tilt what is essentially a mirror match with a character you're unfamiliar with in your favor.
Doopliss absolutely relies on the opponent's moveset to get KOs, so you'd think that Doopliss would be able to at least rack damage somewhat effectively, but in what I've seen as a pervasive issue in your movesets Geto is that he really deals pitiful damage, and many of his attacks don't deal damage at all. Only one smash that actually deals damage? Pitiful damage on the aerials (for those that even do deal damage) means that for all his aerial prowess he's not effectively getting the opponent to KO range in it. Most characters can deal around 10% damage pretty reliably with a single aerial. Mario for example, hardly a powerhouse, deals 10% damage on his Neutral Aerial, his weakest aerial attack. Even his quick Up Aerial deals 11%, while Doopliss deals no damage on an animation that reasonably could deal damage. Overall, the flaws in Doopliss feel endemic to your body of work, but they are addressable. A better understanding of shielding mechanics and a move away from tricky, difficult maneuvers and adding in more solid damage output could definitely pull this set up. But the main dealbreaker is the awkwardness and difficulty of landing the base mechanic that makes Doopliss unique.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Great to see a Geto set, been a while since I last read one, although I wasn’t a fan of Doopliss. However, it’s nowhere as bad as the original and I liked a couple things about it. The set got the core idea of Doopliss correctly; it just pulls it off in an incredibly simplistic and maybe unintentional way. The set aside from the specials is mostly useless, full of random attacks that lack the basic consistency needed to replicate a space animal’s level of flow in Brawl. If the foe steals this set, Doopliss can’t be all that worse off. The downside to that is there are too many restrictions on how long he can keep the foe’s set that make it untenable. I also find it hard to compliment the set as wilfully stringent when the up special is fairly random, overpowered long-range stun that seems very annoying for the foe. The set ends up an improvement on the original by a wide margin, but still far too flawed and not flawed enough to achieve that hipster brilliance that could give it artsy credit. It’s a shame, as that could’ve lifted it into some vote lists.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]The Obzedat
My main issue with the set is the somewhat weird choice of how to represent the character, I get not wanting to make a multi-character set for them but the only place the other ghosts in the council assist is in the grab, which feels weird. Especially so when you refer to them as Obzedat rather than merely "Ghost Council", as Obzedat has much more distinguished designs than the old card and I feel each of them could have their own unique additions to the moveset. It feels more accurate to the original Ravnica card and even then, I wish you did more with the other ghosts as opposed to some of the random effects you have here. The Fair in particular feels really bizarre, and some of the more random summons could've been handled better if it were another member of the council.
What I actually did like about the set amounts too that it does faithfully represent the Ghost Council once you get past the awkward way of implementing them, with their playstyle essentially being a slow bleed in the opponent's percent while constantly healing themselves, compensating for their rather lacking weight due to being a ghost. The buffs on Up and Down Special are particularly interesting in this regard, and I'm rather fond of how you capitalize on them later in the set with the slightly customizable thrull minion on Down Smash. The constant small ways Obzedat has of healing themselves are also rewarded in a fairly cool way in the execution throw, which I liked although I felt the payoff may be a tad too low given the amount of effort you have to put in to really get it to work, since Obzedat lacks a proper recovery move and has 2/10 weight, and I wish you did more stuff with the healing. Aside from that, while the implementation of Extort is very cool, I feel the ways Obzedat has of defending themselves are rather lackluster if they want to use it, outside maybe the Thrull and FSmash. Maybe you could have given them more lingering hitboxes to get in the way?
It actually is a decent set overall despite how heavily I nitpicked it, mostly because I've wanted to make this character myself for a while and the actual healing/percentage bleed mechanics and characterization are really good stuff, just not supported nearly as well as I'd hope. Hopefully you can take a few lessons from this set and improve from here, as I do believe this is my favorite of yours in spite of it's many flaws.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I was very happy to see Zook back with Ghost Council, or Obzedat. It certainly has that distinctive Zook style – move-to-move flow, interesting effects on individual moves, without anything that would be out of place in Brawl. The Ghost Council largely foregoes any advanced group mechanics by simply using the applicable council member in an understandably simplistic fashion, as the different members aren’t what the card is about. Instead, it focuses on debts to be paid through damage and using elements of the undead befitting of this evil quasi cult. I only disliked the set when it got overly wacky in certain effects on moves that would probably be good just as a more standard type of attack, but these are outshined by the good interactions. The executioner’s axe down throw, the perfunctory way the aerials work, the traps here or there, it’s fun stuff. As is usual in your style, it doesn’t create the most compact, mind-boggling moveset, but it’s a really neat, artistic set that has a lot of creativity. It’s not a set I’ll soon forget, warts and all.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]RANDOM MEMBER OF THE GHOST OBZEDAT
Doing such a lazy job to represent additional members of the obzedat and referring to the singular ghost as “the obzedat” feels fairly insulting to the character. You could at least have it be two as the main character with an Ice Climbers esque deal, and I wish the ghosts were more common throughout the set rather than showing up so rarely. You’d think more would stay out as actual “minion” characters, and the set would come across less proppy if there weren’t as many ghosts as there were that were specifically bound to only popping up for a single input. If the same ghosts popped out for multiple, I could see this set as more feasible. Yes, it’s true that the other obzedat members may not want to show up and would send minions to work for them, but this is a set for them, not their minions, so they get to fight whether they want to or not.
The actual gameplay of the moveset is sound if rather diminutive of their potential as a horde of money grubbing ghosts. Putting the foe in “debt” with damage is actually pretty good characterization, and it’s less tacky than it is on human characters (Yes, it’s unsurprisingly been done, though not terribly focused on) due to them being magical ghosts. The moveset is at its best when playing with this mechanic such as in the grab-game, and when it abandons it can get rather boring. I also think more could have been done with the tether link of the debt you presented, for how much you interact with the actual debt.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Obzedat, Keymaster of Gozer!
Probably my favorite thing in the Obzedat is Extort and Chains of Debt, the NSpec and SSpec, in that I quite like the bleeder style of play that they give Obzedat to start with: Orzhov is ALL about this bleeding style, after all. The idea of giving the opponent buffs to gain advantages while they have said buffs are Orzhov-ian and feel nice, but I feel they would be better placed on the throw inputs: It feels more logically for them to bestow gifts on the foe while the foe is in their grasp, the animations would feel more smooth and it would free up space in the Specials for moves to help with the throws. For example, the Thrull is actually a nice minion, but on the Down Smash and with only having one out it feels like it is on the wrong input and would be troublesome (And also maybe make it, say, you can have 1 + the number of other players in the game). The #1 oddity with the Obzedat is, of course, that despite being a set for the Ghost Council there seems to only be one of them or, at the least, the nature of multiple councilmembers is not at all explored, which feels character-wise very iffy. They also have some strange moves, like the very random up air attack-minion, and some balance issues, like the broken and annoying stunning F-Tilt, and many things feel like they are on the wrong input: The FAir is more like a throw and the Down Throw/Back Throw, two moves I actually like, do not feel much like throws, though those two are more acceptable. It also has some very strange animations for the character, such as the grab. Still, it is a set with some good ideas and juuuust enough execution to be quite enjoyable, and I feel it would bode well for if you made future sets, Zook.[/collapse]
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[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Don Thousand Years To Comment
Something I like about Don Thousand is that he isn't super heavy and doubleplus boss buffed right at the start: Sure, he's a heavyweight, but not even as heavy as Bowser, making it different from super big bosses. Instead, Don Thousand is a strong but not crazy guy who brings in his boss feeling with his moves. The way the Gates are handled seems nice: Given he is a major Yu-Gi-Oh Antagonist, summoning minions is an obvious route, but the way his playstyle developed around the fact you don't want to attack the Gates is great and I feel various uses, from the simple like countering them into it and the crystals to more complex mindgames, of this are nice. The Down THrow in particular, I feel, is a highlight: It is the kind of move that so often ends up executed poorly, but here is executed with precision and in a way designed to not destroy the foe, be it moveset-wise or character-wise, with the corruption. The pummel might be a bit odd on the pummel, but I find it inventive and I can excuse it enough on a boss set. My favorite move is probably the Down Special counter which I feel is a fun and fresh spin on counters and forms an obvious crux of the playstyle.
The Gates in general are pretty good, functioning as attacks both when summoned and staionary while providing bizarre minions, and the fact they all come from the same pool of lag, but can be used with his other attacks, brings to shade a light touch of Grievous styled multiple attacks, a nice little bit that gives more depth to some moves. It's hard to tell if Numerronius is balanced, as it must toe the line between being potent enough to be a big reward when the Gate breaks but not so strong it is an instant win button, or at least not too OP, and I can't decide if it suceeded or not...but the balance seems fine enough that potential OPness seems to be more of a minor than major issue. One slight problem with DT may simply be the number of things he can summon and not make you want to strike and otherwise clogging the screen, which could make DT's playstyle a bit too automatic on smaller stages...but I don't think it is so automatic as to be an issue and that on most stages that are played like FD and such it should be okay enough. I haven't talked much about the standards or aerials, but they're all good stuff: Centerpieces, no, but they all seem to work well with Don Thousand's overall playstyle. I particularly like the Jab, an inventive use of that kind of move, Down Tilt (the interaction with Barian Emperor stuff seels seamless) and Up Aerial, a simple move but I enjoy how it and the Up Smash work with the sweetspot. The moveset isn't perfect, with minor little flaws, the ocassional balance concern and someone could probably argue the Standards/Aerials could flow more, but overall I found it to be an enjoyable and fun set, so kudos ForwardArrow! Who'd have thought it'd be you making our best Yu-Gi-Oh set?
Also, Don Thousand's Final Smash is pretty great.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Don Thousand is a set that goes into a new realm of boss set dynamics, where the boss plays puppeteer directly with his opponents. It’s not the greatest departure from resistances and likely could’ve remained a typical boss, but the mileage that is gotten out of the changes makes it a worthwhile change. The lack of resistances gives way to a great system of counters to make an effectively strong, but unique set that makes up for weakness by stealing away the foe’s own strength. Oh it is great nonetheless to see good melee attacks in this set, some of your best, but as always you excel when thinking up crazy interactions or status effects. That is the core of Don Thousand, but truthfully doesn’t scratch the surface. There is a heck of a lot of depth to this set if you just despoiler the neutral special and it doesn't end there.
Those summons are simply insanely detailed and a tonne of fun to add into the mix of a boss fight against three opponents, mostly for their sheer size, but eventually they’re given a thousand reason other than that. The crystals and counters and that entire intricate system is amazingly tightly wound. Interactions, soft or hard, in the aerials, standards and throws are all very elegantly linked to base of the set. Generally there are few weak moves, outside the obvious up aerial, back throw and dash attack. Almost every other move is fascinating or adds a layer of depth, the former best sighted in the fantastic Kyubey-like throw that transforms the foe into a Barian minion. I kind of wish the final smash was somehow in the main set as it is great too, but it wouldn’t quite as sensible of a set and maybe overbearing, but hey. I can hardly complain when the set is so densely packed. Don Thousand is a strong addition to the library of boss movesets.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]YUGIOH MAFIA
Don Thousand of course has plenty of interesting stuff at his disposal and the flow is quite strong with him, with the main thing he flows into being countering of course. There are other interesting aspects of the moveset, such as the crystals and minions, and they all interact with each other in very extensive ways. The only problem is that, quite frankly, just about everything revolves around the don getting foes to hit things. This would be a more practical idea for a 1v1 match, but when you insisted on making him a boss and making him so underpowered to appease Froy by saying that this moveset could work on its own merits it just doesn’t click. His central moves that aren’t countering are set-up, and if they have hitboxes on them as they set-up they’re largely just there as defensive measures, not something the don would ever have a reason to try to actively hit some poor shmuck with.
To use an extremely negative example, Ninetales demands that enemies grab it no matter what the cost. No matter how much flow was put into it, the point stood that it wanted to be grabbed and anybody fighting it would know that, so it’s a very artificial playstyle element to the point that you have to literally force enemies to grab it. Don Thousand is nowhere near such an extreme case, but with three foes fighting you all at once it will be extremely difficult to just herd them about as the moveset wants like dumb sheep. Three enemy movesets can probably outproduce the don in terms of threats on the stage while ignoring him outside of actual Brawl movesets that this boss would probably never exist alongside of. Even so, with multiple enemies, if the don has to rely so heavily on countering his enemies, what stops the second guy from hitting the don as he finishes countering the first? What actual offense he has on his person is very small and can be quite awkward to use, such as the deliberately difficult uair.
No, I don’t want him to be 1v1, as he’d have to be nerfed for that regardless and just be a very awkward and heavy set-up character in it. I still think this playstyle can work in 3v1, but he just seems too weak for now. He needs more to compensate for the fact that his playstyle can be so directly worked and strategized around, and not just a casual weight buff to make him a more mainline boss. This is obviously a set I want to like, and I liked it a lot more when I finished reading it, but this problem has just festered in my mind a lot after having read it so long ago. It also accounts for my failure to talk about the more likable aspects of the set in remote detail which I apologize for. I obviously need to reread it and am not going to bother ranking it for now, as I admit the problem may be somewhat exaggerated. Regardless, I will be very interested in seeing how you respond to this.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Batman
This set is a massive improvement from Commander Video, and I'm very excited to see it. Arkham Batman has plenty of potential, and you do a good job of exploiting it. There's still a criminal case of underdetail in some of these moves though. What sort of arc do Batman's batarangs fly on? Can they be curved or aimed, or do they fly just straight ahead? How fast do they fly anyways? How much knockback does a move deal, and at what percentage can I usually expect to land a KO on an opponent with it? These are questions that really need to be answered in your barebones move descriptions. You don't have to drown us in details, but more information would be really nice.
There are some clever interactions going on in this moveset as well, I'm especially a fan of the ability to use smoke pellets and aerials to divebomb the foe unexpectedly or the ability to plant explosive gel on someone to detonate later as a useful kill method out of a throw. That's some nice creativity there. There is also a great feeling of Batman's acrobatic stunts with moves like down aerial and dash attack (which I do wish dealt some sort of damage, although I understand it's based on the evade button from Arkham). There are a few other points of awkwardness that I'd like to point out though.: down tilt and down smash really should have been coalesced into a single move rather than having it as an awkward two inputs, so that Batman could have had a normal down tilt. The forward smash is a bit of a sore thumb on the set in my eyes... lots of nice moves like the dash attack, and then a single powerful punch for the FSmash? Why not something more engaging and acrobatic to fit in there, like a flipping kick or something that moves Batman around , and is ultimately more interesting to land? Finally, I think that the forward aerial and back aerial really should be revised, they feel like specials on an aerial input, and their requirement to have walls available makes these two moves completely useless on most stages. I and many other MYMers are not a fan of cloned inputs on forward and backward aerials or forward and backward throws either.
Other than that though, Batman is a solid moveset and a wonderful addition from you. I'm eager to see what you pump out next at this rate of improvement.[/collapse]
[collapse="n88_2004"]Batman
As a life-long Batman fan, I'm more or less obligated to pitch in some thoughts here. This is a really solid early set; there are some creative moves and you do a good job of making this feel not just like any Batman, but specifically a set for Arkham Batman. The acrobatics in the standards even capture a bit of Arkham's rhythmic combat, which is no mean feat.
Echoing some of darth meanie's concerns with the set, I think your biggest issue right now is with getting your attacks to suit your inputs well. Batman's got two tilts that deal no damage. You might be able to get away with that on a less physical character but Batman, especially in the Arkham games, is too much of a hand-to-hand guy for it to work here. A few of the Specials also feel awkward to me; Dive Bomb is a cool attack, but it doesn't feel quite Batman enough to merit a Special. I think you would have been better off using your Explosive Gel or Line Launcher ideas in the Specials. The placement of the Batarangs on Side Special also feels counter-intuitive; their form and function is very typical of Neutral Special attacks, where they might fit better.
You've got some fun ideas and you've done pretty decently at capturing the feel of the Arkham games. I hope we see another set from you sooner rather than later.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Van
I get the impression you actually put a fair amount of effort into this set, very clearly trying to define the characters seemingly passive-agressive nature by making the majority of his set projectiles, and also managed to give him a surprisingly well defined playstyle. He camps and that's so he can keep the opponent out of close range so he can build up his coin mechanic, and then unleash a large attack with that. Admittedly camping based playstyles are very common in Make Your Move but you wouldn't really have known that beforehand, and it's not a badly executed one at that. It's not exactly perfect admittedly, I wish you wouldn't actively specify moves as being "his worst X", because it's not really good design to have moves be purposefully bad. I also feel that you could've done a little more with the coins, as he only really has one move he can expend them on. I'd look to the set I commented just above for some more ways to utilize them, albeit I do appreciate the somewhat more careful approach taken here. Lastly, I'd prefer it if the Uair/Dair and Fair/Bair weren't mirrored, it'd give him a bit more versatility. For all my nitpicks though, it's a very solid first set and you should go make more.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I think FA and others gave feedback on other sets by newer users well enough I don’t think I can make anything but a rehash of his comments, but I felt compelled to comment Van. This set has some problems, but surprisingly not too many fundamental ones. You've got a great organizational style full of colour and images, and a writing style that encourages the reader to continue with a love for the character’s source material that is invaluable. Where the set fails is in simple places that can be easily improved. For one, the main mechanic is just too simplistic for what becomes small pay-off. It buffs two other moves, which are also two of only about four or five KO moves, which leads to the character feeling predictable in my opinion. The set also mirrors two aerials. While aerials aren’t considered the most important section of inputs, it again makes Van more predictable as he loses two significant options in the air.
The set also should’ve been more aware of where to put its creative ideas, as the standards, while they are perfectly valid to be long-range non-melee attacks, shouldn’t use silly props if it can be helped. This awareness would also help to highlight the character’s personality and everything else, which seemed like your focus in this moveset. I did get a sense of the character’s money hoarding, but it simply could’ve been done better, I actually recommend Profiteur as a read to see what I mean. All in all, just go read all the sets around the thread if you want to improve your style, which I think has a lot of potential.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Davidreamcatcha"]WALUIGI REVIEW
The difference between reviews and comments, for those who weren't with us during the days when reviews were commonly posted - is that reviews are very long-form. Comments are more generalized, while a lot of reviews delve into specific issues with the set. Given that you're new, I feel this deserves a review rather than a generalized comment.
Before I start, I'd like to clarify that I'm not gonna draw any comparisons to Smash Daddy's Waluigi moveset here and I think it's for the best that everybody who comments this set not do this either. It's incredibly unfair to have somebody's first moveset compared to a moveset done by a well-established MYMer that placed third just last contest because they're both for the same character (especially when Waluigi is one of the most movesetted characters - probably only behind K. Rool).
Now that that's out of the way, the first thing I want to say is PLEASE CHANGE YOUR ORGANIZATION AND TEXT SIZE. Nobody would be enthusiastic about reading anything this size - especially when you're having us absorb as much information as you do through Waluigi's multiple movesets. Try emulating the organization of another moveset posted in the thread, perhaps?
Right from the beginning of this set, it's obvious you have a lot of passion for this character - which is always appreciated in MYM. And can we talk about how fantastic his double jump/air dash mechanic is? It's absolutely lovely and you have no idea how happy I'd be to see something like that in a playable Smash appearance.
Waluigi has a lot of cool stuff going for him, especially with that damage/moveset mechanic. It's something that's been done plenty of times, but never to the extreme that he has -three- completely unique movesets, even if only two can be used at once. I'd like to see more trickery/mindgames in terms of switching movesets - I made a Dr. House set back in MYM11 that used the same sort of deal in that he switched movesets on a dime and the foe could never tell which one he was using, and given that his moves were relatively similar in terms of animation, confusion was added on immediately. Imagine if when Waluigi used his jab, Waluigi threw a single punch then used either a damaging hook or the extending glove as a second attack - foes would prepare for one attack and Waluigi would smack them with the other! That's a very specific example, but it seems like you were trying to go in that direction but it just sort of veered off.
That being said, while the moveset and concepts offer very strong ideas, they're dragged down a little by some factors. My main issue here are the props - both in what's used and the dropping of said props. Waluigi is a very proppy character, and expecting him not to use most of this stuff is ridiculous - but half of the stuff that's here is obscure as hell (the pliers) and some of the stuff that's here seems to be tacked on for the sake of being creative. Looking at the excavator in particular, which takes no advantage of it's vehicle-based origin and has that awkward spacing which seems very unfitting of an FSmash. Moreover, the dropping of props seems unnecessary, given that he can just switch to a different moveset - the only thing it does is harm the player by removing one of their favorite moves, not Wa himself.
The other thing is the fluctuating amount of detail - in one area you'll go on about one particular move, then provide very little information about another. This also works works with his props - let's take Waluigi's Reign as an example. He throws the hammers he used in the E-Reader Mario Party. Okay. Now how slow are these hammers exactly? Does he throw them in an arc? 27% is a lot of damage for any attack - especially when it only deals 3% less than the Excavation attack, which requires you to fully charge/set it up in a very awkward manner. What's more, can there be more than one out a time? You seem to imply there can't be, given they can just steal the hammer. As a matter of fact, how does it work when they steal the hammer? The one used by Waluigi is very small, but using it just gives him the property of the already existing extremely powerful hammer attack - which is significantly larger. Do they just constantly use that hammer attack forever or does his hammer disappear after the same amount of time used by the normal hammer? And what happens in a Waluigi ditto match - do they use it like the item?
This is only added on to by the confusing taunt properties - keep in mind that in the side taunt, half of Final Destination is actually quite a large distance - and you make no reference to the length of the taunt. Assuming it's as short as it is in the PSA (by the way, might want to explain more about it with stuff like the up taunt - I'm familiar with it but I don't know if everyone in MYM is). Does it affect everyone on the ground as long as they're in that distance? Keep in mind that being dizzy in Brawl lasts a long time and essentially means a free hit - even from a slow attack like the Warlock Punch. He'll have more than enough time to set up that awkward Excavation smash, or just lazily throw a hammer at them.
Overall though, as many nitpicks as I made with this comment, this is a very strong first set. That's why I made this a review and not a comment - you show a lot of promise, and already have quite a bit of strong talent - some concepts and ideas brought up by this set are outright fantastic. It's just that it's bogged down, and if you're going to stick around and make more movesets, I'd like to see them ironed out rather then dwelling for 3 more movesets before you drop them. Like I said, though, you have a lot of promise and I hope you choose to stay beyond this one set.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Waluigi
So this is your first set, and I can actually see that a lot of effort went into it, with the sheer amount of images you put in and the fact that you made 3 entire sets for this character. Dedication to a character is something I'm always happy to see in a set, and you seem to have a lot of it. That said, the set has it's fair share of problems, mostly stemming from the fact that while Waluigi is proppy, you seem to think it's fitting to pull out some really bizarre ones. I don't believe the character ever used a whip for one, which you spend an entire grab game on, and it doesn't even feel fitting to Waluigi regardless of whether or not he actually had one, given the character for the most part is just a cheater at sports, not some kind of sadistic psychopath. Some of the actual props from his game you use are a bit out there too, it's fine to use stuff like his tennis rackets and bomb-ombs, but an excavator he drove once as a cart is kind of pushing it.
This kind of thing happens when you try to make 3 movesets for the same character, even on one who has a fair amount of potential like Waluigi, so to bring up another problem, I'm a bit confused as to how the actual moveset swap works. I assume he can either be in the default set or switching between Angry and Tricky Cheater, which is fine, it's just fairly hard to create any sort of consistent style to a character like this when you have him swap between 3 movesets other than unpredictability. It may have been better to play of Waluigi's tendency to fight using foul play rather than just trying to take this approach where he swaps between 3 movesets for the sake of being unpredictable, as I don't really feel his "Cheater" tendancy actually comes through well enough beyond just using a large number of props.
To put it bluntly I like the effort put into the set, but I really feel it's lacking in polish, and ultimately struggles to represent the character accurately. Next time, I'd advise just trying to refine a smaller number of inputs more thoroughly and keep stuff a bit more in character. As a last note, while it's nice to have reference images in the set, some of them are fanart which when trying to show off the source for a particular move generally isn't the best source to pull from(even if for what it's worth fanart can make for great section headers, see Frozen Roy's Touhou sets for some examples of that), and sometimes on things I actually wanted reference images for there weren't any(the claw from Fly Guy's ending is something I'm fairly sure most people in MYM haven't seen before). Having images in a set is good but your selections are a bit bizarre.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Mach Rider
I get the temptation to make characters like this, as oftentimes proving difficult characters are possible in smash is really satisfying. However, Mach Rider suffers a bit from not really trying to the most of this character, and it particularly shows in the aerials where he has 2 mirrored ones, and the throws where literally every throw functions the same. I could forgive this a little if the mirrored inputs goal was to do anything interesting, but just a flip and a wheel grind... surely you could've at least came up with different animations for each throw right. The rest of the set also feels fairly flawed, with the Side and Up Special having effects that feel very random on the character even if the Up Special one is canonical by a pretty extreme technicality, and there's no reason why running over the foe should pitfall them when Wario's bike just deals straight knockback, rather than stun which is much less fun to play against. At any rate what you should probably focus on with your next set is just a more detailed and complete set, possibly try a character where you don't feel the need to exploit obscure effects and mirror inputs to complete a set for. Sorry to be as harsh on this as I was, but I honestly think you can do a lot better than this.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Pauline
Thanks for changing the text color of the set first of all. It makes things a lot more readable, the previous dark red was nigh impenetrable. You actually start off the set with a surprisingly nice basis too, the randomly generated minions that all feel reasonably effective at their jobs despite being fragile, which all do some reasonably unique things and feel like they would be fun to play around with. It was a very solid choice of a centerpiece for the set, but I kind of wish you did a little more with the minis after the initial move. You had the spring which could've been used to launch them around or the fire later on in the set(questionable as that move is) to potentially scare them off from a particular location on the stage. It would be a lot more worthwhile to have stuff that helps that aspect of the set rather than a self damaging Pikachu's thunder that has nothing to do with it(the Down Special feels incredibly awkward period, especially if Donkey Kong happens to be in the match as is).
Now aside from that my main complaint is, which I guess is unfair in some ways since my first point wanted you to use these to make the minis more effective, but Pauline having a lot of the things she does in her purse just feels absurd. Minis, I can believe. A spring? A bit bizarre but it's not any more bizarre than some of the props we see in Brawl. Fire coming out of her purse or Donkey Kong Jr's arm? That doesn't make any sense, why would she have literally every prop from Donkey Kong stored in her purse? It feels unnatural and would raise a lot of questions for people playing the character. If you did more with the minis and pulled less random things out of her purse I could've seen this set going over pretty well, but as is it still needs some polish. For an effort this early in your career though, even having a solid base is good though.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Swap Force is a great return from you, Bionichute, and though I wouldn't say it's a good set, it shows that you've learned a few important lessons. To start, my problems with the set. The swap mechanic is simply too arbitrary, dividing up the moveset along very perfunctory lines. This is the highlight of the set, but ultimately it's little more than a cliff note. If you had thought through how the moves worked, or given an explanation as to why these moves had to be split on either side, I would've been on-board. I also never felt like the combination of the two sets added up to much of anything that interesting or fun. They're two very simplistic characters and combined, it's fun in concept, but in practice feels very chaotic and not necessarily in a good way.
On the good, the moveset has a good handle on what examples are easy to understand in what may have been otherwise a difficult read. You're able to use a clear understanding of the moves in Brawl to create simple moves that carry across, working on both a written level and a player level, as a set for Skylanders should probably be an easy one to understand for kids. There also were a couple of ideas that didn't go anywhere that were decent, I wish you had taken the two characters to create some form of interactions. Maybe a bubble that is heated becomes a hitbox rather than a grab hitbox? That would've been cool. In all, though, I think the set is a good effort and I'm very happy to have you back. Now just get Skype and we'll be back in business.[/collapse]
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[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Tangela
Tangela is a set that will be very interesting to use for comparison when US' Tangrowth is finalized. I guess I'll just start by saying that I didn't like this very much. There's a lot of potential here, with an overflowing amount of good ideas, all of which are underutilized and many of which do not belong together on this same, single set. The use of Energy Ball as a bumper sticks in my mind as something that really makes no sense, upon not adding much to the playstyle that is attempted to be established. The use of vines as an auto-grab of sorts works just fine, but there's a lot of gimmicky effects on moves that don't play into this well and just feel tacked-on.
Ingrain doesn't make much sense. It's supposed to reduce Tangela's knockback as if he's rooted directly to the ground, but yet he's also able to move "freely within them"? Growth feels out of place as a jab of all things, and I think that this should be either a special or a mechanic not assigned to a particular input. What Tangela has going for it is one of my favorite archetypes, the lightweight survivalist, and it has glimpses of the potential inherent in that playstyle, with elements such as Growth, Ingrain, and Giga Drain increasing survivability. However, Tangela's ability to shine through the darkness of that mess of vines is marred by a myriad of questionably gimmicky inputs, a garden of filler, and a lack of dedication to what could easily be a much simpler, and superior, character. I'm looking forward to seeing that remix you mentioned.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Tangela, well, I've already gone over most of what I think of the set in chat, so not sure what else I can say without rubbing in what you already know is wrong and have said you want to improve. I'll first go over what is good in the set. It's very straightforward how it works and for a pre-evo, that's a must. Although it can get quite elaborate, it's nothing that feels horribly out-of-character. I would disagree on much of the interpretation, but I can see the reasons why.
To re-iterate on a couple of points, though, I don't think the Ingrain works as it should for the actual Pokemon ability and this can be applied to a lot of moves. I think you should try harder to port an ability or move into Smash Bros while keeping its core mechanics intact. I also feel that you need to get a better grip on the internal logic of a set. It's a grass type, I feel that should mean it works fairly naturally, rather than mechanically. Here that rather translates to things like leeching life from enemies on the other end of the stage and an energy blast turning into a bumper. These can work as concepts but not in the places where you put them - a leech life using vines connected to the foe or a smashed bumper attack, rather than on the aerials, could be fantastic if done well.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]LIVING TENTACLES WITH NO THROWS
This is a very unnecessary comment, but I don’t think you should attempt to make a moveset in a day again after this one. No Throws. An infinite in the grab mechanic right off the bat that you had to be informed of with a poorly thought out mechanic. Neutral B, Ftilt, Dair, and Fsmash behave nothing like the Pokemon moves, Uair and fair are bad Pokemon syndrome, and most other moves that aren’t weird for the character are still bizarre for gameplay in some way (Dsmash in general, Jab not being a special and lasting forever) or other. I suppose some simplistic camping trappy playstyle exists and it’s not terribly overpowered anymore.[/collapse]
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[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Barbaracle
Oh, Barbaracle. One of my favorite new Pokémon. Such a fantastic design and basis. And what a fantastic set to go along with it. Barbaracle has a lot of neat ideas at play here. The use of the individual barnacles as a combination of traps and minions plays ingeniously into their sedentary nature, and the interactions offered between the player and the barnacles is extremely well thought-out. The ability of the barnacles to function as actual hands, ranging from independent item use to even ledge interaction is simply brilliant and oozes unique characterization. Ancientpower, which also plays into the barnacles, also fits snugly into the playstyle established here, being useful in conjunction with all of Barbaracle's other specials, and then some.
It is mostly due to moves like Ancientpower (glide-tossing is underused as a gameplay mechanic in MYM, from what I've seen), that tie into multiple styles of play, by which Barbaracle succeeds so well at accomplishing its goal of boasting two equally capable playstyles, tying in well with Barbaracle's ability to be both a defensive and offensive fighter in Pokémon. While both styles are fantastic and well-formulated, I will say that the more defensive style comes off as a bit more coherent, as well as more appealing, though the latter point is more opinion than analysis. Rock Polish and Shell Smash, both "buffering" abilities of sorts, are clever adaptations of the original moves that also stand out as premier examples of well-done buffs (features that I tend to not enjoy in movesets), and Tough Claws is incorporating smartly in its use in aiding move linkage. Barbaracle's sacrificing of its own shield, linear and gimp-worthy recovery, and punishable moves (especially when lacking arms) also keep this set realistic in terms of extravagance, as it allows Barbaracle to remain in the realm of balance, despite his often showy intricacies.
Sadly, returning to my comment on Tough Claws, for all of the set's excellence, Barbaracle's key and only true problem in my eyes is the way combos and move linking works. The rotation of Barbaracle's limbs does not do much at all for me, I'm afraid. I find it unnecessary, too complicated to manage without enough reward to be all that fun, and almost nonsensical. Why would Barbaracle switch out the role of its limbs after every move? I don't think there's much point to the rotation mechanic, quite bluntly, and I think that it comes off as more forced than successfully utilized, as a result of having to manage Barbaracle's attacks in some sort of forced way when its arms have been removed with Neutral Special. I think it could have been handled differently, or even excluded with some alternations to some moves, because as I see it, the set shines with its already established mechanics of Shell Smash, Rock Polish, barnacles, and Ancientpower. The arm rotation, sort of the idée fixe of the set, doesn't really come off as necessary when all of these other mechanics are pulled off so well already, and on their own. While I spent a lot of time on my problem with this aspect of the set, it's not necessarily a bad mechanic, just one I believe to be highly unnecessary. With or without the mechanic, I'd vote for the set the same way.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Onto Barbaracle, this set takes some nitty-gritty criticism to get to its heart. It's a set that almost takes inspiration from Pinsir in its use of multi-functional moves that have several different forms, mostly for the sake of genuine versatility as Barbaracle switches around its attacking claws. That is done exceptionally well for the most part. I agree it's a little awkward to imagine in action, but you can't deny how creative it is and how deep the character would be on a competitive level. Players would find new strategies, mix-ups and techniques all the time just playing around. It's balanced by the way you abandon the Binacles, Barbaracle has to play defensive. It reminds me a bit of ROB's gyro, only it has a thousand different uses.
The set manages to have a tonne of good mix-up that isn't the same old layers upon layers of rushdown. The command grab and ability to move in either direction adds some obvious potential to the combos, but not without its setbacks. The set is very good about setting up these dynamics for Barbaracle to swiftly change from one playstyle to a completely new one, every time creating an obvious advantage but also a disadvantage. It's the basic, stalwart aggressor that is not often seen in Make Your Move because it's not exciting and fairly difficult to pull off, but you did it. It's a perfect fit for the Pokemon too, a predator that is in fact several individual minds working as a collective. Although nothing I can see making it into Smash, it has that typical Joe philosophy that makes it creative while not abandoning the basic principles of in-smash.
I really hope that you put as much effort into the rest of your planned Pokemon sets for this contest as Barbaracle, that would be extremely impressive. Very solid moveset.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]BEST BAIT AND SWITCH SINCE MAGIKARP
To start with the good, the Helping Hand mechanic and the swapping of the hands with each tilt is very interesting and more potential than anybody else ever rip out of the Pokemon. I don’t know if him rotating his arms around and ripping them off is the best characterization, but when the rest of the moveset is so brutish it’s hard to complain about that. The versatility with positioning and larger imagination throughout is enough to make me like the set more than Pinsir. The only thing that Pinsir has that this set doesn’t is that Pinsir seems a fair bit more fun to play, as Barbaracle quite honestly seems more difficult to play than the average trap filled MYM set with his supreme versatility, though he wouldn’t be especially difficult to play casually, so it’s a rather poor complaint.
What I dislike about the moveset is how combo heavy it is. He has about twice as many moves as the average Smash Bros character that he can position in so many different places, can set up lingering hitboxes around the stage, move while using these attacks, and even enter a berserker rage mode by voluntarily breaking his shield, where essentially he either instantly dies or the foe does. He seems far too good at what he does to me, and most of the moveset is dedicated to this more boring playstyle of overwhelming Barbaracle’s enemies. Shell Smash makes matches end in a flash one way or the other and just makes the game too fast paced for my taste, and the part of the tilts I’m personally not a fan of is the part where they can be canceled into other moves. So I have issue with the tilts like everyone else, but for very different reasons. I don’t hate the set by any stretch, and it very clearly has much more effort put into it than just about any other set you’ve made, but I think it would play in a rather linear fashion in competitive play with just how much combo power you’ve given him, whether or not how balanced it is. You do offer a more positioning and defensive as an alternative playstyle and I’d probably vote for that one as the flow does exist for it, but it seems to be very outclassed by his comboing if you ask me in terms of competitive practicality.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Smash Daddy"]The Lich is pretty interesting, though I have one minor balance complaint first - having to stand in the well for 40 seconds is too long, and having to re-create every ten seconds is too much of a nuisance. If it's two SBUs in width, that's actually not all that big to "stand near." I can see it being a problem getting to level 2. This is a problem when he has no recovery at level 1. The mechanic is decent, although I wish there was a consistency between the specials and their upgraded forms - levels 2 and 3 share many similarities, but level 1's summons go away completely. I see why, once you're powerful enough you don't need them, however the moves that replace the skeletons aren't fitting replacements.
As for the rest of the set, it is again a very easily understood and simple fare that for the most part, carries across the character well, although I don't think there is enough substance to it. The level ups basically just make the moves stronger rather than playing into a particular playstyle. That and the fact he largely fights from a distance means his playstyle inevitably revolves around camping in or near his well, and if he gets level 3 I don't know what he really does. There isn't much of a playstyle at all. The reason why it would help is not only to make the set deeper on a mechanical level, but because it'd showcase The Lich's personality. If he obsesses over the well, why not expand his use of minions? I thought it would've been fun if, for example, he used up the skeletons to alter or power up his bone cage smash. If he could manipulate the well into attacks, that'd make his campy playstyle a bit more unique too. You definitely have the basics down, though, which is damned impressive after over a year out of the community.[/collapse]
[collapse="ChaosKiwi"]And now, I'd like to comment on the Lich. While this set has a good concept, with stages that have to manually progressed through and completely different playstyles for each. However, what it lacks is a sense of timing. The progression from one stage to the next takes far too long. Over a minute and half to get to three is a long time, man. Coupled with the pool needing to be remade every ten or so seconds, it'd be less work to just whittle away the opponent's health with stage one.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Ratchet & Clank deserve a set and this is the best one I have seen for the character, good job on that. The missile side special is immediately very overpowered though, as KOing at 90%, ignoring 75% on an upgrade, is insane for a spammable projectile. Imagine if the NIKITA KO'd that early. I really love the Mr. Zurkon summon's attention to detail, the dialogue is just an excellent little extra. Already in the specials you set out exactly the right playstyle too - that R&C are all about overuse of their crazy weapons, only feeding the drive for further upgrades and destruction. It's a totally mindless, totally fitting playstyle. My problem is that there isn't much to the set besides that. The rest of the moves are loyal interpretations of the weapons from R&C into Smash Bros, but there isn't much to the playstyle beyond simply spamming moves to upgrade them and landing your attacks.
I like the basic premise a whole lot, I just wish that maybe Mr. Zurkon added something to the set to take it to a deeper level, or that the specials had more interesting weapons to give the set a fittingly wacky base to work from later. There are also some moves that feel a bit out-of-place - the down smash simply being another gun that shoots forward, the down tilt only working if a Zurkon exists and reuse of weapons on aerials come to mind. If you had shuffled things around - maybe took some inspiration from Snake and moved missile moves to smashes, then you may have found room for the most fascinating R&C moves (in my opinion the shark or disco ball) to be used in a very creative way on the specials. However, for what it is, this is the definitive R&C set as it stands.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Ratchet & Clank
@
crazyal02
As has been said, Ratchet really needed a good set, and this is the best so far, and likely will be for the time being. It's a great early effort, and your characterization is great and reflective of the playstyle that you obviously understood and wanted to portray. However, I feel as if some of it got lost in translation to the actual moveset. Ratchet suffers slightly from somewhat of a stale playstyle, I think, in that some of his moves are very similar, often mirrored inputs (which normally I'm not too critical of) or projectiles with overly similar functionality. Some parts are also a little vague. For example, Ratchet has no stats given. They may not seem that important, but stats are one of the best ways to make your character come alive, and it tells us a lot about balance. For example, as Smady pointed out, the side special is ridiculously OP, but if Ratchet were slow, for example, it wouldn't be quite as bad. But we're not told how fast Ratchet is. Another area in which things are vague is the weapons system, which we're not told the entire functionality of. For example, does Ratchet keep his upgrades after being KO'd? It's an easy sort of thing to overlook, but has huge ramifications for his playstyle. One final vague area includes the stun gun not giving us any indication of how long it stuns (if it does so at all). On another subject, the Down Tilt only working as a detonation of the Zurkons really feels like a misplaced input. It's great to include standards that interact with specials, but directly controlling them is a different story. The ability to detonate the Zurkons seems much better suited to being part of the special's input itself.
I'm sorry if that all comes off as really harsh, because I actually really do like this moveset for what it is. You've got a great idea going on here, and your love of the character really shines through. It's obvious that you've given the set a lot of thought and got creative with translating the character into the Smash environment. There are just a few overlooked things that I think most of us can agree could use some fine-tuning. You're always welcome to ask some of the more active and seasoned members for advice on working out the kinks of your moveset.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]DM TERRAFORMING HUGO
This is a pretty lovable set you’ve brought here, it’s a pretty good personification of the basic archetype of the characters (Small/average female, giant male team). Moreso, you do a good job of making this moveset feel like an earth elementalist, it’s nice to see you finally attempt to actually make a moveset for such a powerset after all of your talk about them. The boulders and rocks are very well used, and I particularly like the exploits you came up with in the powerset by forming and reforming the golem, pretty brilliant. As you point out in the playstyle summary, the moveset speaks for itself for the most part.
I remembered the aerials were a bit more awkward in the first version, but they seem a fair bit better here. They still have function, but you still definitely capture the feeling that she’s a weaker in there, which she should be as an earth elementalist regardless of not being a heavyweight male herself. It’s hard to even fault you for the occasional redundant input (Most blatant is Special Up Smash with Down Grab) when you have so many moves, and I’m quite proud of you for giving Sherry her own personal full grab-game in addition to Ellis when it’d be so easy to cheat. The aerials and grab-game give Sherry plenty to work with, and while the standards interact with her game heavily are still very functional melee attacks that would actually be used for the hitboxes they posses, rather than just having hitboxes thrown onto the moves as an afterthought.
I don’t think the moveset is quite as versatile as it claims, and it’s more just in denial about the extent of how wacky it is by having the clean cut writing style most of the way though. Outright destroying a portion of the stage, if temporarily, is pretty shocking to see from you and the epitome of “Warlordian”. Aside from that, the balance is questionable and the heavy amount of grabs may simplify how the character would play. You have two characters that can grab in all sorts of ways (Sherry too has an alternate grab in her uair), trip and pitfall characters, as well as moves that are confirmed true combos on prone/pitfalled characters. It’s pretty blunt, but it seems like there might just be too much stun floating around here to be ideal, though I have the decency to not try and look for some infinite that you’d just fix anyway.
One thing that I like that you’ve done balance wise, whether or not it was intentional, was giving Ellis such low HP. He will always be getting summoned and unsummoned to heal, make pits, and actually try to hit people with his suction grab, and it forces the Sherry player to actually move Ellis around somewhat making Ellis’ role in the fight far more active than a big dumb minion just throwing out hitboxes. It’s also a decent balancing mechanic that doesn’t seem too tacked on, as she seems generally quite powerful with Ellis out.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Sherry Cromwell's a break from the norm for you, DM, but I don't think you went as far here as you did in some past sets. For example, DarkMega and VideoMan.EXE had far wackier concepts. The true difference in Sherry is that the execution is fairly tight, compared to those two - every move is an attack, anything else is simply layered on top. There's a very cool symbiotic playstyle between Sherry's lag-filled summoning and the low HP of the Golem, Ellis. She has to fall back on her own, thankfully full moveset of inputs in defense. That set isn't lacking in ideas either, she can terraform walls (this is a DM set?) and cause shockwaves. There are a few neat interactions connecting Sherry and Ellis, though they're few in number and not too elaborate.
My problem reading the set was that it was too brisk in telling all the details. There's no lag described for any of the Golem's smashes, only vaguely saying they're "laggy." The boulders, part of a good few interactions like the multifaceted grab game, don't go into any depth about their mechanics, not even a note that they work the same as barrels or something. I also found a few things a bit unsavory - the Golem is already a wall, as noted in the first move, so to use his arms as a wall and in other places is almost redundant. Add to that a few too many things that result in "explosions of rubble." However, I can safely say I lean to the positive on this set, as though it's not the most sophisticated moveset of its kind, it's nonetheless one of the smarter pair-ups in recent contests. I'd be truly sold if it was as ambitious as DarkMega or VME.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Sherry Cromwell
@
darth meanie
You've got a pretty nifty set here, DM. I'm really just echoing WL's comments here, as I basically have the same thoughts, right down to the stage-destruction being sort of out of character for you. To reiterate/put the praise into my own words, I love what you did here with the small/big dynamic of the Sherry/Ellis duo, and the set itself comes off as this crazy hybrid between a boss set and a minion set; it strikes all the right chords in doing so, and never feels clumsy in its effort to accomplish this marriage. As a side note, I also really like the overall flavor of this character and playstyle. I'm a fan of Hebrew lore, and I found myself amused every time I caught something about the character that derives from golem mythology, so it was a pretty fun read for me. The language here is very appealing. Easy to read, terse, and descriptions never overstay their welcome. The interaction between rubble-creating moves and Ellis' self-recovery are pretty nifty, and I applaud the playstyle that the ground-based moves encourage. Pressuring opponents on the ground and in the air alike in order to make them prime targets for the notably well-balanced Ellis is quite an agreeable approach to this character's playstyle, and I can't say you really ignored any ideas that could've given the set more potential, nor did you step into territory that made anything seem out of place. Kudos for a solid vote from me.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]A Certain Magical Comment
Sherry is a good set, but I feel it could have perhaps been made better by pushing the envelope a bit more: For example, if the Up Tilt allowed you to place spikes on Ellis or you could make stuff on Ellis rock form. Ellis could also perhaps use a bit more to it in the smashes and less pitfalling: Ellis smash attacks are basically "this is a big, dumb, slow brute", which is fine but not particularly exciting and doesn't necessarily work well on it's own. It might have been fun if Ellis had some more moves like the Up Special Smash that allowed Ellis a little ground manipulation of her own: Perhaps throwing bigger rubble chunks or something? Ellis grab game is fairly good, the use of many different grabs is very un-DM but I like it and enjoy seeing you stretch into new places, the grab game is also fairly fine but the BThrow is a large dissapointment as even it's basic kill move properties are not worth the spot given U-Throw and F-Throw: Perhaps a more complex throw could have been used here to go with more grab options. Something I quite enjoyed in this set were the tiny pebbles in it, a small subtheme of moves that helped glue together Sherry's larger playstyle and provided fun and simple gameplay chances to combine with the less in-smash options and probably allowed you to push the envelope a bit more. A straightforward set that is clear in it's ambitious and does them fairly well, but leaves little room for commentary.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Sherry
I feel pretty guilty for not commenting the DM set this contest that I actually did like until now, though this is hardly traditional DM. Heavy stage control abounds with the use of a minion that can cover a huge portion of most stages and his and Sherry's various traps and projectiles, even having a whole elaborate throw game he can use on boulders he creates. It's very cool stuff honestly, largely due to the sheer size and low stamina of the minion, meaning Sherry actually has to keep on top of making sure it can maintain itself, while all the same it provides a lot of reward if she can keep it going. For that matter the whole rubble game is pretty fun as set up for Ellis' massive slow attacks, funny enough I actually used this for inspiration in Lizard back when you previewed the set to me long ago.
Obviously the set has a few problems, and probably the most obvious one is that Ellis pitfalls people way more than is really fair. I doubt there are true infinites here but the amount of stun is annoying to deal with, I think the most egregious case being a boulder falling on people when Ellis can do as much with boulders as he can. The other problem is I feel that the set ultimately sacrifices some of the subtle depth I feel your sets usually have, with once you get past the complexities of keeping Ellis alive, he's honestly rather straightforward, just trying to abuse his massive size and Sherry's large amounts of lingering hitboxes to land big hits. There's enough here to keep it interesting mind you, but I feel you should've either gone further with interaction crazyness, or tried to make implications with the simpler moves deeper than they ended up being. I still like the set though, and like with Chao whether or not it's the best thing you've made it IS good to change your style up with sets like this every once in a while.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]BIZARRO KANG
I will agree with FA that the mechanic is a little bit overhyped, but it still produces enough material for me to get some mileage out of these more boring moves. From what you were telling me, I didn’t expect this moveset to have as much as it did for comboing fodder, but a lot of it is given over to it. That said, the moves are still going into any gameplan, as they have a pretty huge context to work off of with a recorded duplicate of her doing a string of attacks. It’s a bit weird from an in-universe perspective that she can’t see where the foe will be in 3 seconds when she travels into the future, but it’s obviously needed to make the idea remotely feasible and fun. The laser pods from Up B were a nice feature to try and add some spice to the moveset, but the fact that they only fire and have behavior on some very random moves makes them feel like they were directly added in for said spice, and unintuitive in practice.
One of the main things that the moveset doesn’t think about due to being so concerned with combos is gimping. She has enough simplistic melee moves that can be used in the standard way to simply get the foe off-stage, and she could potentially do some interesting tricks with the future duplicate to gimp them, though this is largely unexplored. If nothing else, you can make a duplicate on the stage to greet them as they return, though this will probably just result in some ledge humping on the foe’s part.
The timer option on Down B is an annoying feature introduced that doesn’t really flow into anything and just makes her generically better with the ability to slow foes on demand. The time bullets are bad, but are easier to number crunch down when the foe is invulnerable during that “stun” anyway. The timer effect on the other hand I just want removed. Ignoring the timer, I think she’s fairly balanced regardless simply because she is wrecked by projectiles. Your beloved Falco probably has a more favorable match-up against her than Meta Knight.
The boss mode doesn’t do much with the moveset itself but it’s still pretty fun regardless and a very unique take on one. What changes do happen to her moveset make her a pretty unique boss, if maybe a bit –too- frustrating and strong to play against, as her army of minions can cover her from foes and her hated projectiles during her vulnerable portions. You shouldn’t give foes thirty seconds before she spawns, though. Aside from giving characters time to set-up with only AI minions in the way, not allowing the Chao player to play for 30 seconds is an unnecessary design choice. Aside from that, I feel there is some wasted potential when you have an entire stage and minions to interact off of, that could’ve been a more subtle way to have extremely simplistic moves by having them do something in the boss mode. I still like it as is regardless, but I can see why you’re getting some of the reactions you’ve been getting.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Chao
I feel a little bad saying my problems with the set when I didn't address them very well in the preview before, and I know how it feels to really feel proud of a set and then get it shot down by the public. However, an opponent playing against this set does not get much time to actually play, although for what it's worth that aspect is improved with the removal of the timer. The problem simply is that Chao's time travel move disables anyone from playing while she goes through the 3 seconds of motions, and she can immediately use it again once the duplicate disappears. Is the duplicate itself overpowered? No, but the fact is up to 50% of the game can be just watching Chao go through the motions of using the duplicate while the foe can't do anything. The problem is worsened by that Neutral Special, which while not truly a 3 second stun, it comes fairly close in terms of potency and forcing the foe to put down the controller. Between the two, Chao can pretty much prevent the foe from playing much at all, and this isn't even an ineffective strategy, since it gives enormous time to prepare for and abuse the foe with the duplicate and anti-gravity mines. She's not horrifically OP due to the way you set things up so she can't really have infinites and in the brief window they have control the foe can do a lot to ruin her gameplan, but I'd rather she was extremely strong than capable of ceasing the flow of the match to the degree she is. At the very least you removed the timer effect, a fact I am grateful for as it contributed basically nothing to her gameplan while making it even harder for the foes to actually play the game.
I sort of wish this wasn't the case, as my issues with the mechanic aside it creates some really interesting combos, and the anti-gravity mines and laser pods add to the potential for fun even if they are simple. The set's not overloading the player with combo options outside the specials so the duplicate doesn't become too strong or obsolete. I guess my other problem with the set comes from the fact that the melee game isn't as well written as yours usually are in recent times, you don't really see nearly as much subtle depth in how the moves work, with the only real ones that have it being the Jab/Dash Attack/Up Smash. The grab game in particular feels really lazy and a bit broken due to the fact that you can time travel during it, and given Chao's time travel mechanics and how you specify they work with the grab it creates what ultimately amounts to even more stun.
I like the flashy nature of the boss mode for all it's worth, it gives the fight a certain sense of atmosphere that I feel is good to have on a 3v1 boss. The reason I can't approve of it though is just that it emphasizes the set's problems even more, by allowing her to spend three times as long just preparing to fight the foes while they're forced to do nothing, and having the pseudo-3 second stun upgraded to a horrifying 10 second one. Even on a boss that's pretty much inexcusable, especially when the minions get access to it too(though I don't know if they have the regular version or the boss version. I hope and pray it's the regular version).
So what I'm trying to say about the set is that I can entirely see why you'd be excited about the concept and like the set, hell, I'm rather glad Warlord does after all the effort it's clear you put into it from the boss mode. The problem is, to turn something you've said yourself against you, you got too caught up in the concept to really notice the problems in the execution, which is just that the foe can't DO anything for far too much of the time Chao is in the match. It wouldn't be a bad set to remake in the future though, small additions to the melee game to make it a bit more interesting and a reworked time travel mechanic plus removal or a massive nerf to the bullets would be more than enough for me to like the set. As it stands, it unfortunately breaks the trend of me liking all your sets for the past few contests.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Another DM set next, Chao. I wanted to like the set after it went out of its way to outdo some of the most outlandish concepts you've ever done, in the duplicate and time travel concept. Despite the fact that it was already quite broken, I was going to give it a thumbs up if it just did some good combo stuff later, as it was quite a refreshing approach. But eventually the set gets so burdened by its own balance and very sedentary combos - juggling and a laser-firing 'minion' that automatically follows up. There's little that flows into the original time manipulation concept, honestly there's not much that works into an interesting combo set in general. Unlike Barbaracle, I felt the way this set approached combos was very easily abused and didn't really attempt to balance itself. I was also left sour by your boss mode - I hate when a boss's playstyle revolves around stunning (or in this case, banishing) members of the enemy team, and Chao can do that to every other player at once. It's a shame, as I would have loved if I could support this set, which goes out of its way to have a great collection of extras, steps way out of your comfort zone and has plenty of interesting concepts.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Shoot the Rabbit
You improved the set a lot since the first preview, what with the removal of the awkward goals and the fact that the Smashes are no longer literally copy-pasted from Fox. Given that, I think it makes much better use of the soccer balls as the Smashes are a lot more specialized towards using them, and some of the added aerials like Fair actually feel very good for the set too. The mechanics aside from the soccer balls themselves, namely the grab and the ability to turn Shoot himself into a soccer ball, are also well done, though I feel that the momentum mechanics of Shoot himself as a soccer ball may be hard to use properly when you only have two fairly small stage objects to reflect off of. The standards aren't really up to par with the rest of the set IMO, mostly serving as fairly basic ways to just kick around a soccer ball that are mildly specialized, though Jab and FTilt are decent. DTilt sticks out to me a bit as I'm not sure how natural a dodge with a soccerball really feels on that input, especially when the hitbox is at best an afterthought. Aside from that while it's better than the other of the original Smashes, I still feel the DSmash could have easily been replaced with something better. This is ultimately just nitpicking though, for the most part it's a fun way to play with one of the more interesting Brawl items.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Not much to say on Shoot the Rabbit. It takes the concept of "soccer" and footballs, crafting this into a legitimately sport-like moveset. It tends to avoid the awkwardness inherent to this concept by going for in-smash moves, at times outright copying from Fox. This was toned down considerably from the preview, where it was far too prevalent and the replacements you found do help make Shoot feel more of his own character. I still don't like where he entirely copies, but it's on suitable, filler inputs and it does flow into the footballs. Obviously the turtle's the best part of the set, it along with the down special mean the rest of the set isn't too burdened by Shoot's lack of potential. In all the rest of the set is nothing to write home about, but it's an impressive quality given the character. You take the "soccer" concept about as far as it could ever go, and that alone's worth a vote.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Shoot the Iron Tail
I actually remember Dr. Mario 64! It was a fun game, though it was basically just what it said, Dr. Mario...on the Nintendo 64! But anyway, Shoot the Rabbit.
Shoot himself is a tough character to tackle, but this attempt is pretty good, with some dissapointment in that I feel Shoot did not really take much advantage of the actual soccer balls that were his core idea: He seems much more to play around with reflecting items than anything, especially since he summons his own Soccer Balls so you could give him some special effects on how they get knocked around by moves, like maybe a move that loops it up some or something. The soccer balls are still fine enough here, though, and the item reflection looks okay and it forms a fairly nice and simple playstyle, though at times some things feel a bit too complex and/or obtuse, like the way the turtles work and the exact way of momentum gain on Down Special and the like. Turning the foe into a soccer ball is perfectly in character for Shoot, even if it takes a moment to get over how it feels, but I feel that the problem is that this doesn't lead to accomplish much, aside from perhaps some weird grab gimping, likely due to the fact that turning the foe into a soccer ball is something that just doesn't offer a lot of options without feeling very tacky or against what the set is doing. The Forward Throw in particular is a move that feels odd and I would argue Shoot turning himself into a ball, while interesting as a move, also feels quite bizarre as turning into a ball is how Shoot is defeated, not how he accomplishes much, though perhaps this is more forgivable due to Shoot's limited character appearances. I felt the smashes were actually pretty good, though, generally being simple yet effective moves that played into Shoot's playstyle and took advantage of the use of soccer balls. It's still ultimately a set that is above average, though, so you can put away the shotgun and let the rabbit live.[/collapse]
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[collapse="crazyal02"]Blaziken has just one main trouble: lack of detail. Most moves merely compare it to a move from Super Smash Bros. and have a damage value, and throws and pummels don't even have that. It's important to at least mention what percentage you could expect to KO at. Apart from that, various parts of the moveset seem to assume knowledge of the source material; no matter how familiar you think people are with Blaziken, it's still important to write your set assuming the reader doesn't know who the character is. In particular, it's not at all clear what the Down Special actually does; only the arbitrary method of activating it (why does the opponent have to be using their Down Special?), and the Final Smash has no description whatsoever. Most of the other moves are explicitly clones of Smash character's moves ("Just like Fox does in Super Smash Bros"), which makes the set feel more generic and less like a set specifically for Blaziken. This problem is magnified by the lack of a playstyle section; there isn't really much more than some generic moves that don't really tie together in a meaningful way.[/collapse]
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[collapse="crazyal02"]he King of All Cosmos's Katamari is certainly interesting, but it doesn't really do much. Rolling up enemies with the Katamari sounds like a great deal of fun, but the King is relatively defenseless when using it, and the payoff is a small explosion that won't even deal much damage in no-item matches. Aside from using the Katamari, he again doesn't have a clearly defined playstyle. The playstyle section claims that he focuses on changing the stage, but the only move capable of doing this is Kingly Boundaries, and only three of those can exist at any one time. The Katamari can easily be gotten around by appraching from above, and so the King is left to generic moves that are OK at best. Regardless, I really like the Katamari concept (even if it could have been implemented better), and the presentation of the set is great; I could easily picture the King himself reading it aloud.
EDIT: It has come to my attention that the King of All Cosmos's Up Special can also change the stage (not just Kingly Boundaries). Despite that, this aspect of the set still isn't taken very far.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]King of All Cosmos
@
ChaosKiwi
No worries about me having to go easy on you, ChaosKiwi, as this set isn't that bad, especially for a newcomer one, and doesn't deserve much criticism. Like a lot of newcomer sets, it suffers more from lack of realized potential and refinement than broken inputs or nonsensical ideas. You have a solid grasp on a playstyle here. The King has a focus on stage control and gimping, but you don't take it very far. Most of his standard inputs and throws are pretty generic, oddly so for such an eccentric character, while his aerials and smashes have a lot of character but don't do much. It surprises me that the rainbow bridge is intangible for enemy players. Why not, for example, make it solid so that the King can use it as a barrier? Imagine using Up Aerial to push the bridge upward to block an aerial attacker or shove someone to the top blast zone for a KO. You already have a vertical barrier with the hand, so adding a horizontal one would add a lot more depth to the playstyle with just one simple change. It makes sense within the context of the set, and fits the character as well. This is just one example of ways in which you can flesh out the playstyle more.
The katamari is a bit underutilized, but functions pretty decently for a Smash move, odd as it may be, and I think it's pretty balanced. I like how you really considered the implications of the move's odd characteristics and formulated a workable functionality for it and how it changes the character's controls. The meteor move has its place, but it could use some more moveset interaction. I'd suggest getting crazier on the inputs next time, and thinking of ways in which every move has some sort of contribution to the desired playstyle. Hope to see some more from you.[/collapse]
[collapse="Katapultar"]What an interesting character choice. I never thought anyone would make a set for such a huge guy when his small son got a rather popular set made for him all the way back in MYM9. Like that set, the King reads charmingly - even despite the few spelling errors - and shows good promise, the former of which I am somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned before. Your writing is entertaining, fitting for the character, and the Specials are pretty solid, original stuff for your first set (I only have a hard time imagining imagining how the King is able to stand on his rainbow after firing it from his mouth unless he uses a jump). Even the Standard attacks are a nice read with their trivial animation-descriptions, and though I don't disapprove of "generic attacks", I only simply wish a use of each of them and how they work with the playstyle you established was described, which in itself is a tad vague. Even just giving a use for the simple attacks would grab more people's attention and make the set phenomenally better. An idea way to start on this could either be to read up on some of the sets written by some more experienced MYM'ers, or even checking up on the Brawl Character Discussion threads to see how others describe the various uses of simple Brawl attacks and how they come to form a cohesive playstyle. Regardless, nice going, and I look forward to seeing you put your writing style to more use on future sets[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]The King of All Cosmos has a good base, the specials are their own little galaxy of interaction on their own. You use the meteor debris to roll up in the katamari, and can roll it up the rainbow or make use of your walls. There is a problem in the katamari, in that it's annoying to have it limit your moveset to only the specials. It could honestly be fun to have either access to your moveset or an entirely different one based on using the katamari. When he has to roll up all the items at once, then hit, it's very telegraphed. Past the specials, the set unfortunately doesn't really play into what the specials had set up very well, but the moves at least carry the same humorous writing style. Not a bad set, but I think it could have been great if the standards, aerials, smashes and grab played into the specials. The first part of the set is very entertaining and has some depth to it, if you can manage to translate that to other sets of inputs, you'll be in a great position.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Smash Daddy"]We've not had a good all-encompassing K. Rool set ever, or an attempt at one in many, many years. What I like about this set is its excessive approach to throwing in everything but the kitchen sink in service of the character. It's accurate to how it should work based on his appearances plus put on actually fitting inputs. Generally when a set gets made for K. Rool taking this approach, it ends up a complete disaster as the poster has only a limited understanding of input placement past the obvious specials, but you manage to hold it together remarkably well. Not to say it's not unconventional, like the down smash Playing Dead or how the grab works, but I mostly came to enjoy the quirks of these moves as they further pay homage to the character.
Playstyle-wise, K. Rool here is a bit of everything and that's inevitable when you throw in aspects of all his personalities. That's good for the most part, truly representing K. Rool's intricate split personalities, but it means the playstyle is very loose and open-ended when it doesn't need to be. It's a set based around camping behind minions and projectiles; while not inaccurate for K. Rool's characterisation, it's not the boldest playstyle you could have envisioned. It does get a handful of amazing interactions out of the grab, minions and projectiles - plus you could say getting any consistent playstyle from all the personas is an achievement. Where it gains all its points is being slicker and well-executed, which does emphasize the set's approach. A scattershot but intelligent Frankenstein monster of K. Rool's entire history. It's fitting and albeit the set wouldn't use minions or projectiles to the same degree, but I can see a resemblance of this set making it into Smash too.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]King K Rool
I know I surprised you by liking this set Warlord, but overall, I think it's a pretty nifty moveset you've made here. The ability to suck up and rearrange projectiles is the kind of simple yet deep mechanic that I love, so it shouldn't be too surprising, actually. I do think though that the throws feel a little awkward on their inputs, and since you've already made a different control scheme to actually perform the throws, it may have been better to create new inputs entirely for throwing rather than cramming them awkwardly into up, down, forward and backward.
In the end, King K Rool is hardly revolutionary, it's a projectile spam character, and those practically write themselves, but you practiced restraint in this set and kept it from getting out of hand, and I like that. There's plenty of room for user creativity rather than having a move for every specific situation, and playstyle without a flowchart to victory.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Royal Sticker Star Bowser
K. Rool is a moveset I've been going back and forth on a lot and even now I'm honestly not sure how much I like it, with rereading done earlier today for good measure, and frankly I am sure I will reread it again before voting period to try and figure it all out. Part of the problem is that a lot of K. Rool does is actually things he uses to fight in the various Donkey Kong games, however just throwing them all onto one moveset can feel very odd and create a somewhat disjointed feel. No more do I feel this is more apparent than the three or so Baron Roolenstein moves on the set. Yes, K. Rool using Roolenstein stuff is something he can do since K. Rool IS Roolenstein, but it feels totally at odds with the feel of the set, which is entirely K. Rool and Kaptain material, and adds very little to the moveset: Up Aerial's effect could be replicated with the blunderbuss, the Down Tilt's effect is fairly good but nothing to shed tears over losing and it isn't worth the oddity of it's feel in the moveset, and Up Special being replaced by Up Smash would probably be preferred anyway. I think a lot of my problem with this set, though I am not a Donkey Kong affeciando, is that it feels this is less a well characterized set of K. Rool and more a collection of things K. Rool does to fight in a moveset, and I did not feel I had a better understanding of K. Rool as someone who is not hugely into DK as much as I felt it was pulling from every possible thing. Some things like the Dash Attack feel like this too: K. Rool turning invisible IS something he can do...but SHOULD he do so? Should he be doing so on a Dash Attack of all inputs and does it really add anything to his playstyle? I don't really think it contributed much.
I'm not a big fan of the klouds, or rather, I am not a big fan of the effects on most of the klouds: The middle one is okay, but the other two are just...ugh, why? Control reversal mostly serves as a way to let a chip gimp or whatnot at the foe, nobody likes getting control reversed with Palkia and nor will they this, and in all other situations it feels like it's flow is minimal and when it does happen is mostly just sorta cheap, I think it would legitimately be better if it was just a projectile with the same flight path but it just did damage and knockback or even just the poison effect without the control reversing. The last projectile is just very generic and long stun that does not feel like it works with anything interestingly and is extremely frightening on a projectile that travels the entire width of Final Destination. Especially since it takes only half a second of charge on such a long range projectile. The Down Special is a decently good effect, but I do somewhat worry about it's animation, I know that is just how it is in the fight but maybe if he shot them out of his blunderbuss here? The Side Special is quite nice, at least, the minions do their job without being intrusive too much given K. Rool isn't really a minion character, what they do is interesting and generally fun and they work into the playstyle and so on. Oh, and the Up Special allowing grabs is a bit scary, especially since K. Rool has throws that feel like they can gimp (Up Throw), similiarly this is problematic moreso for not feeling fitting to the K. Rool playstyle, though it also might be a bit imbalanced.
I also actually enjoy Forward Smash, good projectile that lands as a trap, very fitting for K. Rool and a good move, though the fully charged version is a bit absurd to imagine, just travelling so absurdly fast and stupidly far (Same problem Falco's laser has on the length, really). Up Smash feels a lot like just D3's Up Special, which admittedly isn't bad, but it feels like making this a chargable Up Special, axing the current Up Special and making a new Up Smash would be better anyway. Down Smash being a counter feels somewhat odd on K. Rool and while I understand this move comes from the game, it can also feel at times odd, especially the bit about K. Rool's bloodshot eye pulsing, something me and Smady both agreed felt an odd touch, though the move itself is at least fine for the most part. The grab game is an odd beast and while I do not dislike the idea, it reminds me of what I planned (and still plan) for Roy Koopa, it feels extremely complex when it could be very simplified in terms of text at no loss and the absence of a pummel is simply inexcusable when it would be so easy to add one...also, three of K. Rool's throws send the foe in the opposite direction of their input (Back Throw shoots forward, Up Throw shoots the foe into the ground, Down Throw shoots the foe up). I actually quite love the Forward Throw, though, the range being perhaps a bit absurd but it feels very fitting and gives K. Rool just the kind of move he wants. One issue it and the Back Throw have is that no effort is expended on the throw when actually using it to grab foes at all, not even a token mention of how they might fit into the playstyle, just kind of plopped at the end of the projectile grabbing part of the throw, making them feel very useless. The Up Throw's effect on foes also feels like something is off on it, the view of the foe bouncing and all feeling odd, but I will say that I also enjoy this throw's use on the projectiles, the Down Throw and Back Throw feel much more iffy, the Down Throw's effect in particular feels like something K. Rool can do but which feels kind of tacky on a throw all the same, I honestly feel a throw without an added effect and with a bigger focus on what it does with the foe instead of the projectiles would have really enhanced this grab game.
The standards, to me, felt a bit crisper overall and a nice part of the set: The crown boomerang feels odd, but the effect is fairly nice on K. Rool and I do feel that it's use of being a boomerang fits into the playstyle. On the other hand, I quite dislike the Dash Attack, it feels extremely awkward on the input and K. Rool simply does not have invisibility flow into his game in any appreciable manner. But on the other OTHER hand, Forward Tilt is actually one of my favorite inputs in the set, an attack that feels perfectly fitting to K. Rool, flows into his playstyle nicely, has a pretty nice effect and overall fits it's purpose perfectly. Is it the most creative move ever? No, but it is an extremely well executed move that fits what K. Rool needs perfectly. The Up Tilt is also a very fitting use of K. Rool's in game talents done in a way for K. Rool as a character to use, provides a useful effect to the character that fits into the playstyle, and overall is well executed, while the Down Tilt...well, the effect is something I don't mind, but I dislike the fact that Baron just has like 3 moves here, it really either needed to be more (Which IMO would have been a poor descisions) or just cut. Neutral Aerial is a fine and fitting move that does it's job well...and who can resist that hypnotic dancing of King K. Rool? The Forward Aerial is an okay move, but K. Rool gaining superarmor on the move is a bit odd, considering it makes his whole body apparently gain knockback resistance but he is only holding it in front of him, why not just make it block attacks from the front and give it some more weaknesses, fit more naturally and would still work well with the original intention? Back Aerial isn't necessarily a bad move, but from what I know K. Rool basically NEVER uses his tail for actual combat, so this mostly serves to give him a bit more of a generic lizard feel I guess? The effect isn't anything you couldn't accomplish with the blunderbuss, after all. The Up Aerial similiarly can have it's effect just on the blunderbuss, I mean he alright inhaled with it earlier so why not have it inhale/suction here, and again just has the Baron theme randomly crop up, the Down Aerial is good with perhaps slightly weak playstyle relevance, but the Bowser butt bomb with shockwaves works well enough into the playstyle that I'd hardly complain.
AAAAANYWAY, this comment is getting ABSURDLY long, so to summarize my thoughts...honestly, I am not even sure if I like K. Rool or not, but I have ultimately put him as liked for now because I ultimately enjoy the playstyle it has a fair deal and I do feel it had a deal of good moves, like Forward TIlt, Forward Smash, Forward Throw (Keep up those forward inputs, apparently), Up Tilt and the like. However, I feel the Baron parts of the moveset were extremely out of place and that a lot of times instead of having K. Rool shine as a character, everything he did was just thrown in there for the sake of character, and ironically this hurt the characterization overall. In addition, many effects I did not like really dragged down my enjoyment of the set, and overall I could see it slip into unlikeability, for now it hits the likeable range...and of course, all of me spewing stuff over it there is because of 2 (I think I actually started to half-read it again before today, so 2.5) readings that really served to highlight what I felt about it more clearly and is, of course, only one man's opinion: A lot of people enjoy this set, after all.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Youmu's in a genre of set I don't tend to like all that greatly, but manages to hit a chord on execution that makes it enjoyable. The Luma wannabe minion is used in simplistic, but interesting ways in the context of a rushdown-focused set. Simply positioning a minion around in these carefully constructed combos and chases does add some depth, as well as the after image effect. It's nothing exciting, but every move does succeed in giving a genuine new option. Some don't have an interesting new addition: down aerial mostly gets you to the stage faster, there are a few sweetspot moves. But the set makes up for it when it has pseudo-counters, versatile tech chases and unique combos thrown into the mix. It's extremely competent at what it does and it's rarely just dull, but not revolutionary for the genre. For a standard set of this kind, it is about as good as it gets, without throwing in a true game changer.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Youmu
I already mentioned to you that I love this set, but let me get into really why I love it here. The concepts you introduce are perfectly simple enough to pick up, but leave a great amount of depth behind it. You have your character, an extra hurtbox, and an extra hitbox. You've written these mechanics in such a way though that you're able to create a depth of playstyle out of simple moves. Her approaching reflector becomes fascinating with the ability to have a second version of her coming from behind.
One thing though that I'm not sure about with the moveset is the inability of her to turn around effectively. It really limits the ability to be creative with her doppelganger, and doesn't feel like it really fits the character and feels unnatural mechanically. The intention of forcing her to commit to approaches is laudable, but I feel like you could have done this just as easily with changes to her moves and approaching tools rather than a ham-handed one-way street as it is.
Still, altogether the moveset is tightly wound and every mechanic fits together well, making for a moveset that I imagine would be fun to play and play against, which is really the gold standard to be shooting for. Well done Froy, you've made what is possibly my favorite set this contest thusfar.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Youmu
@
FrozenRoy
I think this set is one of your most solid this contest, and I applaud your ability to convince me of that, because before I got to the standards, it felt a little weak. Youmu is a little extreme in her lack of moveset interactions with her specials, something that is scarce but usually present in some way with these sets. Instead, Youmu has two unique mechanics that make both specials and standards (and smashes, and aerials, etc.) completely viable on their own, and it works in a lovely fashion. It's rare, I think, to see a set that successfully marries two gimmicks/mechanics so masterfully, but I think Youmu is a good example of success in that area.
Every of Youmu's moves has some sort of overall application in her playstyle, and can be amplified in effectiveness because of Myon and/or her afterimage. These uses range from simple in nature (such as the 5-hit jab), to the more technical (such as Dtilt's disjointed hitbox coupled with Myon's range and the mindgame utility in Dash Attack and Fsmash), but never does the set feel too difficult for the average player to get a hold of. The decision to have Youmu move so quickly in exchange for a lack of control is an interesting one that I believe works well in making her stand out from her compatriot movesets. I'd say that my only real gripe with the set would be the mentioning of her dodge mechanics in the grab section...kinda weird. But that's also kind of your thing; it's an issue of personal taste, for me. I would've liked to know that information earlier on.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Smash Daddy"]After Lich and Swap Force, Shy Guy makes some breakthroughs for you, but at the same time hits some obvious pitfalls. However, number one, and why I wanted to see this set finished regardless, is it brings with it a lot of movesetting lessons. This set is pretty funny and it's not a bad idea for a Shy Guy set. The most obvious way to immediately improve the set is to promote the up tilt to a special and allow for the fleeing Shy Guys to briefly use the weapons. The specials only feel vaguely special anyway - they aren't more central to the set than any of the other moves.
An example of how I'd cut down on the set's flack is to replace any other weapon moves with the spear. It's established as practically his signature weapon, so it sticks out when he decides to randomly use another, like the scythe on an aerial. Just things like that should be kept in mind, as well as trying to find a central playstyle that fits the moves. This doesn't mean you can'd do fun sets or characters, on the contrary, you can very easily have a playstyle that works into spawning random items on the stage. Here it's basically just a playstyle of individual moves that happen to be in the same set, without a strong playstyle to hold them together. Nonetheless, you're getting closer to making a good one, and I can't say I didn't enjoy reading this set. As usual, it has a great writing style and it's definitely amusing - it's impressively good for how long you've been back in MYM.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Shy Guy
The main thing I really wish Shy Guy did, when it comes down to it, is find a way to acknowledge all the items he drops on the ground. He has moves which drop a ton of things all over the stage, and that's a perfectly good set up but you never actually do anything with the items you just leave everywhere, which becomes rather crippling when the foe can just start picking them up and using Shy Guy's own set against him. I guess it is possible to just leave a large number of them around and then just chuck them at the foe in mass to utilize them for a fast stream of damage, but really it's a shame you used the concept only as something of a gimmick rather than trying to make items that work off each other a bit. The Shy Guy tower, as Smady mentioned, is a fairly obvious place to start, and the mere existence of them grabbing items rather than being items, which is really inconsistent with the way the playable Shy Guy works, would improve the set enormously. As is, it does show a great increase in effort from you and I can tell you put effort into this, I think when it comes down to it the set just needed a strong centerpiece as the components for a fun moveset are here.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Shy Guy
@
Bionichute
That Bullet Bill move is a bit ironic, given the thing is now revealed to be an actual item in Smash 4, isn't it?
Anyway, I agree with Smady in that Shy Guy feels more like a collection of disparate moves than a cohesive moveset. Shy Guy's emphasis on spawning random items is unique, but doesn't lend itself to any sort of flow between any of his moves. Actually, I'd say it probably detracts from that if anything. I too would recommend having the spear be used in place of things such as the scythe, etc. Another problem that I see is the inherent randomness for the sake on randomness on some of his moves, such as the recovery, which can randomly fully heal everyone instead of exploding and dealing damage. That's pretty darn overpowered there, I think. A full heal in the midst of battle completely resets any flow either player has going. My biggest problem with the set derives from the charging of moves. Usually, charged moves allow both uncharged and charged application within battle, but for moves like Up Special, Side Special, and Down Special, aside from very situational scenarios, I can't imagine why there'd be any incentive to use the uncharged versions. Up Special, especially, is so risky to use due to it putting Shy Guy into special fall when hit, that it'd almost always be preferable to use the superior version of the move.
The one thing I actually really enjoy about the set is the Utilt Shy Guy tower, which, while I think could have been implemented in a better fashion, is still pretty interesting. The ability to extend the height and range of certain moves by stacking more Shy Guys is a pretty cool idea. You know, I think this set would've been a lot more interesting if this move/feature was the core focus of the character.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Shy Guy
Everyone's told you about how the Shy Stack should have been a special and should have used the Shy Guys to pick up his dropped items, but I figured another thing I'd mention about that move is they really shouldn't become throwing items. Making them minions with stamina is fine, but even then they should have a visual distinction from the main Shy Guy, as it creates a very strange discrepancy to have some things that look exactly the same as your player character just be items.
Aside from that, I feel some of the props are a bit poorly handled, random chances of flying further on an aerial, rather than a special(and even then I'd advise against it) are frustrating to deal with as nobody wants their character to accidentally suicide. Also while it's good to have him drop stuff on the Smashes/Specials/maybe Standards, the gimmick stretches a bit thin when you use it on aerials/grabs. Not to say those inputs can't be creative, but it's not the best place to put item producing moves. Playing with items like the set does IS fun though, we've had some good item manipulation sets in the past with Putata and Luke Atmey, but they never had enough items to be as good as they could be. This has all the equipment you'd ever need, it just doesn't do anything with it, but I think branching out to do something more creative like this was good for you Bio, especially looking at your more recent Whiteboard previews which feel like you're making huge strides in learning playstyle.
Edit: wow I accidentally commented this set twice go me[/collapse]
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[collapse="Junahu"]Jet Jaguar
Much of what I could say of this moveset has already been pointed out by darthmeanie in his comment for Clockwork.
Jet Jaguar has a strong concept at his core: the ability to alter his size at will. Giving a tool like this to the player is inherently interesting, because it allows them to alter the knockback their attacks deal in an intuitively analogue fashion. It's a huge idea, and it characterises Jaguar as a man who adapts and changes himself to meet the different challenges he faces. He never gives up, there is always another angle that the problem can be approached from.
It's a wonderful concept, is what I'm saying here.
Beyond this central idea however, Jet Jaguar does very little, if anything, to capitalise on it. The regular attacks feel interchangeable; as we could replace them with captain falcon's moveset and nothing would really change to the reader. While this ostensibly points to your attacks not "flowing", it speaks of a much more pressing concern: you don't seem very interested in writing these attacks.
It's understandable. Regular attacks are not as fun to write. But they are even less fun to read when the moveset just wants to get them out of the way. You started this moveset with a certain passion, and that passion shone through in the way your introduction and specials are written. But this enthusiasm, this love for the character, vanishes the moment you started writing the other attacks. Just look;
Up Special said:
Jet Jaguar leaps into the air, arms outstretched like a beautiful Japanese robot falcon
Click to expand...
Side Tilt said:
Jet Jaguar does a Judo chop in front of him
Click to expand...
The net result of this problem is that it becomes very easy to miss the ideas presented in the regular attacks. For example, the fact you can move a small Jet Jaguar around in midair with his aerials is an inspired way to further differentiate the different sizes of Jet Jaguar. But it's hard to notice that because you don't give the reader any incentive to pay attention or engage with the moveset's ideas. So it becomes easy for the reader to write off those attacks as being (for want of a better term) 'generic filler'.
Something you may want to look into, is using Case Examples to describe situations where an attack would be most useful. Here's an example from MasterWarlord's recent King K.Rool moveset;
Because this is a b-air, this is the aerial you’ll most naturally use when fleeing from the foe. What this aerial does for you is knock the foe in the way you were retreating, while setting you up to flee back where the foe was coming from...
Click to expand...
Writing a case example for an attack will get both the reader, and yourself, to think more deeply about why the attack is important and what it adds to the player experience.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Jet Jaguar
Jet Jaguar is actually one of your strongest sets conceptually Kiwi, and I'm a little surprised you're not more fond of it. There's a decent balance between being giant and small in this set, with giant jaguar's increased power and range while the smaller version gains speed, but you frequently go beyond just that and add little variations in moves to make the set feel more interesting beyond just that. How hilariously cheesy the animations are honestly helps the set, given how hilariously campy the old Godzilla movies were. I wish the size change was taken advantage of better though, maybe let him do things while big that he can subsequently abuse once he turns small again? For that matter, I think that maybe you could've included a wider size range, as he's a Godzilla character, so there's nothing wrong with him being absolutely huge, and frankly it could've been more interesting for providing a wider dynamic on how his moves work. At the same time, that is a bit ambitious so I can see why you wouldn't do that so early in your set making career. All the same, I do feel this is one of your better sets, it may be worth using something similar to the size shifting in the future with more movesetting knowledge.[/collapse]
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[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Snorlax
@
Rychu
I came into Snorlax expecting something simple. What I got was...something simple, but surprisingly deep. Can I just say it? I love this set. While it lacks the extreme creativity and flow needed for me to super vote it, I love the set anyway. It's simple, it's sweet, and it's terse. It never commits to any one thing for too long, and reading it was over before it started. It's the ultimate personification of Snorlax itself. I really like the writing style in particular, here. It's goofy and doesn't take itself seriously at all, and it's a nice little charming touch that really "works" for this Pokémon.
Now, about the moves themselves. As I said, what I love about Snorlax is that it's simple. You have one real mechanic that you've committed to, and everything Snorlax does is based upon that one thing. Snorlax tanks some hits, sleeps off damage, and tries to keep enemies from disturbing its slumber. The way you've managed to make sleeping a viable combat strategy is actually pretty darn praise-worthy. Essentially, Snorlax is about timing and playing a guessing game. You're going to want to wake up and attack at just the right time to ambush opponents, and try to fit in a snooze at other opportune moments. There are some pretty long incapacitation times on moves like Yawn and Dizzy Punch, but I don't mind that much because Snorlax is so ridiculously slow, so I think that's passable here. Generally, Snorlax's ground attacks serve some variety of purpose that contributes to the playstyle as a whole. Snore deters approaching opponents from disrupting Snorlax's sleep, for example, while Belly Drum wards off foes and stalls for time before Yawn puts their lights out. The grabs get their jobs done and are in-character, while the aerials are mostly phoned in but work because it's Snorlax. Really, I don't have much to complain about. This is a Snorlax set, through and through. It's in-character, it's fitting, it's entertaining, and I quite enjoyed it.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]97% COMBO
Snorlax can move around while asleep, even if a bit awkwardly, taking away his only disadvantage, and on top of his healing and weight can forget to take knockback Slowbro Amnesia style. While it hasn’t been brought up directly, we’ve realized over time just how bad and OP Slowbro’s mechanic is – it’s not a good thing to bring back, and neither is Espeon’s Future Sight.
Snorlax’s power is doubled while he is asleep, and he gains access to a horrifically powerful snore. If he manages to grab the foe while asleep, he can headbutt them for double damage at 48%, pummel them for a doubled 14%, then snore for 35% for a true combo insta kill. No, Snorlax doesn’t body slam them or anything, headbutting and snoring at foes are Snorlax’s truly most powerful techniques. There’s not much to talk about with the rest of the moveset, it’s largely just kind of there.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Clockwork
You've been pumping out movesets with aplomb lately, so it's about time someone gave you a comment on one. I read through Lion-O as well, but Clockwork seemed to be the moveset much more deserving of a comment than Lion-O. Conceptually, what you have here is perfectly strong enough to hold its own even among the highest echelons of movesets. Stealing projectiles and freezing them in the air as traps, or letting them go as you like? It's a great concept you have here.
What Clockwork lacks that keeps it from being a great set in my mind is a sense of flow and playstyle that comes out of it. Too many moves fail to capitalize on the interesting base you have of time manipulation and projectile freezing, and where they do occasionally it's more of an interesting side note, like in the back aerial, than as a real meaty bit of playstyle. I would have loved to see more projectiles with different properties to work with, buffs and debuffs to use with Fast Forward, ways to abuse Rewind than what you've established already.
Also, as a side-note, the Final Smash is utterly broken, you need to rethink your timing on some of these things. Thirty seconds is a long time, especially in a fast-paced game like smash brothers. Even eight seconds would seem like plenty of time to set up a wall of projectiles or flurry of attacks to me. It's a very broken final smash as it is.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Scarlet Freshbrew
This is definitely an unusual choice of character, but after Tommy Wiseau we can't expect any less of you, now can we? The oversexualized nature of the moveset is a little uncomfortable, but I got Top 5 on a moveset with a character who has a sex scene in the original source material, so there's little room for me to complain.
Overall, you have a nice feel for how moves and attacks feel in Smash Brothers, which is a nice trait to have. Attacks feel like they were ripped straight from the game itself, with a few exceptions (randomly summoning a stripper pole comes to mind).
I felt you didn't capitalize on the character's potential though. After mentioning that she could separate her top and bottom halves, I read through the entire moveset expecting a special that used that to separate her into two separate parts to attack, but I came up empty. There's also a bit of a criminal case of underdetail here... moves should generally have damage percentages and kill percentages explained, at the minimum.
Overall, this set shows much more potential than Tommy Wiseau's half-joking nature was, but it still lacks a sense of coherency and playstyle. There's no central concept or idea that the set revolves around, just a string of generic kicking attacks that fit the style of Smash but little else.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Borth-Majar
Man how many sets does Kiwi have to post before someone comments them? Not that I'm not guilty of skipping over them too, but this has a fair bit more effort put into it than the previous ones I feel, lacking any mirrored inputs and having a decent mechanic on the standards of having them both attack separately, which potentially allows for some interesting combo set ups. I don't feel it's really used all that well here though, as while the desync is fun you never really let them do anything like, oh say throwing Borth across the stage and letting him use another attack you can choose before returning to Majar. The one thing I do like that you did though was the special where Borth goes off to prepare something else to let Majar work solo until he's done and then gives them a free counter. That's fun, and I wish you did more little things like that to play off their duality mechanic. The specials would be a good place for stuff like that, rather than just more bland things like a roll. Regardless, I don't feel this set is bad, as the characters come across nicely and the ideas at work here are fairly fun, I just wish there was a bit more substance.[/collapse]
[collapse="n88_2004"]Borth-Majar
Man, you've really been cranking out the sets, Kiwi. And if Borth-Majar is any indication, you're doing a pretty darn solid job. Borth-Majar doesn't quite capitalize on its concepts as much as it could. I understand from chat discussion that it was intended to be more mechanically complex with a focus on separating Borth and Majar, but you reined it in for characterization reasons. While it would have been nice to see the set build a little more in that direction, the restraint is more impressive to me. The attack animations are very fun here; you do a good job mixing up the visuals and there's a great sense of character.
Normally I end my newcomer-comments by encouraging the writer to keep at it, but frankly I doubt there's anything that could stop you from writing movesets. Keep dishin' 'em out and I'll try and keep up with the comments.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Broth Major
Borth-Majar is definitely your best set, Kiwi, and a good sign that you can throw in quality to go with your quantity. Much of what I like from Borth-Majar can be found in the Specials: The idea of a delayed counter like that, with a vulnearable channeling time, is not only an appealing and good concept but works well into the fact Borth-Majar is a "two in one" type of character. The Side Special's ability to send half of yourself forward, almost like a charging wall, offers up interesting, desync-style options to appear from there and works fairly well into it all. The Up Special is a nice move, I feel, and it adds good functionality with the core concept, while Neutral Special is a bit bland, but effective none-the-less. The standards and smashes method of alternating strikes may outlive it's welcome at time, but it still ends up fairly nice, and they tend to work well into the core concept, though it is lightly so. The aerials and grab game are largely the worst part of this set: The duality theme running throughout the moveset is least pronounced in gameplay here and the effects generally tie most loosely into how Borth-Majar plays. At the same time, they are less particularly bad moves and more moves that sit very well into the realm of not being good enough or "average", which combined with a strong enough start allows Borth-Majar to definitely be an enjoyable experience, and the writing in the moveset is very pleasant. If you can make more sets that capture the magic in Borth-Majar, Kiwi, then I think you have some good potential in you.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]EASIEST CHARACTER
This moveset is definitely your most flowing to date by a mile, though I would largely attribute it to the raw potential of the chosen character(s). Regardless, this has the most understanding of a playstyle, and the brief instance where Majar is split up by being sent out to charge presents a lot of interesting things to do. The moveset is actually quite decent up through the standards and smashes, but by the time you’ve reached the aerials, it descends back into the quality of your usual movesets. Regardless, I would suggest you do more high potential characters if possible to learn based off your trend of movesets so far, as Quick Man certainly didn’t cut it.
This moveset could really use some more detail to elaborate on how the tag teaming dynamic works, and it’s more interesting than it’s really given credit for. The standards and smashes also have a rather weird mechanic with alternating between two different moves every time they’re used. It would be awkward to remember which move you’re on for all of these moves, and the “splitting up” aspect of the moveset isn’t utilized enough for me to really care that Borth and Majar have their own separate attacks anyway. Combination attacks are how you really squeeze the potential out of a great duo like this.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ChaosKiwi"]Very few men, nay, people could capture Donkey Kong with such incredible skill as you have, Bionichute. He's an all around powerhouse, which fits the character considering he's a gorilla. It seems as though he's perfect for keeping enemies at close range, what with specials like his Coconut Cream Pie and Bongo Dongo. In fact, I'd even say he's overpowered, what with that super scope jab of his and other such moves. Although, I'd say that Final Smash is a bit weak.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Cartoon Donkey Kong
I'd honestly say making a good jokeset may be just as hard as making a real set, because humor is a difficult art to pull off. I say this because I sadly did not find the set funny, as while the source material you reference is humorous due to how bizarre it is, that's all you do, reference it. Usually just copying something exactly from a source doesn't make it good, a moveset that was entirely just direct ports of how a character attacked in another game on every input would be pretty bad at best and absolutely awful at worst. The same goes for humor, you can't just copy the humor of a source material and expect it to work when it's just being casually retold on paper, without the delivery of the source. As a serious set, there isn't really any substance here, and for whatever reason you copy moves directly from the actual DK set in Brawl. I know they're the same character, but it adds nothing to the humor or actual quality of the set. Anyway, it wasn't a waste of time to experiment on something like this, like with Shy Guy, but unlike Shy Guy I don't think there's any real merit here.[/collapse]
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[collapse="n88_2004"]Holly Summers
As a small note, you don't seem big on introducing the source material for your characters. Borth-Majar didn't explain where they were from either and I'm guessing Holly is a No More Heroes thing (the art style/assassin ranking seems about right?) but I don't really know. That might be a good inclusion, especially if you're trying to share an interest.
Holly actually has a very strong set-up, with a handful of projectiles and her pitfall trap. The moveset tapers off a bit as it goes on, though, losing quite a bit of momentum in the aerials. Like Borth-Majar, Holly doesn't entirely live up to her initial concepts, but I think she does a better job playing off of them, and feels a little tighter in terms of playstyle. Even if this is just intended to be a quick set as a hold-over until your next "big" project, I think it shows a lot of promise. You're coming along pretty darn fast.[/collapse]
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[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Pie, mon
This comment will be short, in part because I have advice that more pertains to help in my Isabelle comment below, but suffice to say I did not find Piedmon very good. However, Piedmon actually has a fairly solid set of Specials, with the Neutral and Side Specials being good, NSpec a bit moreso, while the Down Special actually opens up many possibilities and is a fresh take on portals. the Up Special is a bit dissapointing, though, since it doesn't do much. The real issue with this set is past the Specials. The Specials are good because they set up a lot of things for the rest of the set to play off of: You have a lot of different angles to hit the foe off of with Side Special, allowing Piedmon powerful long ranged projectiles at the cost of being without use of it and possibly other moves on the Neutral Special creates an interesting scenario of mixing it in without becoming helpless and when to use it, and the portal path for projectiles opens up a new dimension for Piedmon to play with what projectiles he does have. It's not that the attacks do horrible things or even, necessarily, that they are "generic", but that they do not feel like they enhance the playstyle nor have clearly defined uses. For example, how do different uses of the Jab, Up Tilt and Trump Sword projectiles work into how he plays? Are they more offensive, for close ranged strikes, or does he prefer to attack at long range with things such as portals and Trump Sword's long range? How does the F-Tilt work into things, for example: Perhaps it is good at spacing the foe away from Piedmon for follow-ups, or maybe it keeps them close for other strikes, or maybe it sends them away from Piedmon that is advantageous to him? I feel the playstyle section truly shows this up: Everything that it suggests working into each other is in the Specials. I am not saying that they need to combo or anything, just that they work towards a goal. Even something simple, non-flashy and "generic" can become good when used like this. For example, Ike's variety of moves gives him a cohesive feel of being a strong bruiser, who wants to use his jab and other moves to best space and poke foes, before smashing them right off the edge with one of his stronger moves and using Down Special to become a fairly dominant close range fighter while approaching projectile characters with Side Special. Ike isn't the strongest example, per se, but one that is a bit self-evident to see. The problem with Piedmon is it does not feel like his attacks truly connect to his Specials or to an overall feel of his moveset: Aside from characterization, everything past the Standards feels like it could be replaced with Captain Falcon's moveset and not feel much different. In my opinion, this stems from something I will get to more in Isabelle: I feel that you should take more time on your sets.[/collapse]
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[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Et Tu, Geto?
The rest of this contest has gone...less than stellar-y for your sets, Geto, but I feel proud to say that Centurion has broken that MYM15 chain. The choice of a roman Centurion for a moveset is not the most obvious, and it isn't a very "high potential" set as it may be, but it is executed admirably here, creating a simple and effective moveset. The differences between the Gladius, Pilum and Scrutum are good and the fact a weapon change mechanic is not used here is appreciated, as it would have felt odd on the Centurion. The mechanics at the start of Centurion are simple and effective ones which give a good idea of the playstyle right away, leading into some fairly nice Specials, moreso now that the Side Special's grab hitbox has been removed, though the Down Special can at times feel redundant within the set and perhaps could have had something new onto it. Up Tilt was a nice variant on the Lexaeus' Forward Tilt I so enjoy and while the moves are unexciting, their functionality and working into the Centurion's advancing wall style of play is appealing. The immovable object, as you say.
Where this set falls into problems generally occurs in the aerials and grab game: While the aerials are not strictly bad, they feel the least connected to the rest of Centurion's game plan, mostly in the BAir/FAir, while the grab game feels a bit more connected but feels like it adds little, though the Forward Throw seems suitably fitting. The Centurion is not exactly someone who would be able to go crazy on these inputs, but a bit more of them working into the Centurion would have been welcome. The smashes also sit on a precarious point of balance, needing much damage and the like to remain usable with the lighter Pilum involved, which while handled okay does create a delicate and easily fractured balance and there could be issues. The attacks themselves are fairly good, though, and overall the Centurion is certainly more enjoyable than not. Personally, I look forward to the possibility of seeing more history sets from you Geto, as this set had a fairly nice quality to it and it's status as a historical set felt enjoyable. Perhaps that could be a special niche for you.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Roman Centurion
Okay so in a first for you this contest Geto, this set is actually pretty decent. The use of the shield is the main thing, it gives him a very distinct melee style of being a close range monster... but only under very specific conditions, a bit of a slow moving wall that wants the match to stay his way. It works fine for the most part, occasionally doing some legitamately fun things like the Up Tilt, and it does manage to capture the feel of the Centurion quite nicely.
As for criticisms, I feel a set like this, with a melee game that only works in one context of smash(he falls apart a lot in the air, especially with his nigh non-existant recovery), it'd ultimately end up rather shallow since he can't fully explore the aerial heavy nature of the game, being very limited to ground comment in a manner that ultimately probably would get rather repetitive. His playstyle does feel a bit automatic too, and honestly a large portion of the set, while functional, is so bland it gives nothing to really talk about. It's probably a step you had to take because it manages to be functional unlike Doopliss or your pokesets, but I still don't find it terribly enjoyable. Still, it's a step in the right direction for you to not try concepts that you haven't really prepared yourself to work with yet, and for how low potential character Centurion is the fact that you make it interesting at all is a good sign.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]GOOD GETO SET
The flow in this moveset is quite simple, but doing a very simple character like this appears to be what you needed to get back in the swing of things. While the links aren’t the strongest in this set, the playstyle goal is simple enough that it’s a lot easier for you to design moves that fit the gameplan – and what else can you really expect of such a character? I suppose he could have a horse in the moveset given he’s a centurion rather than a lowly foot soldier, though if that was in this would largely be a different set entirely.
I assume it’s a tribute to Joe’s Spartan from the now ancient times of MYM 8, but I can’t say I’m a fan of the organization. The randomly green highlighted portions of the moveset are just about as numerous as the regular text, and in tandem with the red damage percentages make the text of the moveset Christmas colored. When so much text is colored, it basically just becomes distracting to the eyes.[/collapse]
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[collapse="crazyal02"]"Dewgong largely explains itself", you say, before launching into an epic essay-sized playstyle section. This alone shows that you put a great deal of care and time into this set. Dewgong is that guy who's crazy powerful in great players, but a bit ineffectual otherwise. This is very competitively appealing; players would keep unlocking endless tactics (hence the aforementioned epic playstyle section). He has a playstyle involving mindgames, carefully planning the match. Although that isn't a bold concept, the execution is masterful; every move ties into his game.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Dewgonging Intensifies
Dewgong may not be up to the same standard as Whiscash, Turtles, but it is still a fine moveset all it's own. Indeed, Dewgong feels in some ways similiar to the mudfish, but instead of creating a muddied and watery stage, it focuses on the chilling depths with water. I was pleased to see you take to heart what other people thought of the set and fix some things like the FAir and Ice Beam's length. As for the moveset itself, it is a nice thing and fitting for Dewgong: He creates water and ice from that water and by doing so he can create rings like a circus seal, slopes to fly off of and land on and generally turn the world into an icy wonderland, then use his size, strength and superior speed on ice to bully the foe to their destruction. It could be said that Dewgong using ice in such a manner is slightly odd, but the way that the ice creation flows into the general characterization keeps it from being intrusive or particularly negative. Aqua Ring was a particular favorite for me: The desicison between setting up healing and damaging rings is a good one and the way it is presented mixes it into Dewgong and Dewgong's playstyle nicely. Further moves make sure to use the seeds set up in the Specials in simple yet fairly deep ways: The smashes are a particular highlight, perhaps Surf being slightly weak, but Waterfall was a nice gem in the moveset that really helped bring everything all together, and I enjoyed moves like Forward Tilt and Down Aerial in their simplicity working into the playstyle...though using Kongo Jungle 64 as a unit of measurement was quite an odd thing.
Problems in this set largely extend to the fact that while what does fit into Dewgong nice and easily is good, there is a fair deal that seems a bit odd, pointless or not particularly connected to the rest of the moveset. This largely shines through in the grab game, which has some good character moments inside it, but feels like it largely plays little into the rest of Dewgong's game, though perhaps this is understandable given how hard a Dewgong grab game is to make. Dash Attack is also a bit of an example of this: While Dewgong can keep pressure up, he does not feel much like a "combo" character, so the use of it as a combo finisher can feel a bit puzzling, and it is perhaps a bit difficult to see how it fits into the style even afterwards. Overall, though, I would say more works into what Dewgong does than doesn't, and it ends up being a moveset that will be said to be good, even if it will not be remembered for MYMs to come.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Dewgong
Dewgong doesn't reinvent the wheel, ultimately just being a set based around sliding around on ice, of which we've seen a fair few before, and generally they aren't well recieved. I feel Dewgong's a fair bit more interesting though, mostly because the ice is created by freezing water in Dewgong's attacks, which can be set up in some fairly creative ways via the Smashes. I also rather like the idea of the rings that boosting yourself through consecutively provides healing with, it's a nice extra incentive to keep moving and you can do some neat tricks with freezing them and the slow projectile in the set already.
Aside from the high points though the set is a bit on the dull side, as the standards/aerials/grab game honestly don't feel terribly inspired. What they do is provide little bits of extra substance though, they all at least acknowledge the mechanics and add a small amount of depth that ultimately does add up to something that's probably more interesting than it at first sounds. Admittedly though, I wish there was a little more to the set that was apparent sometimes, while those moves play off the stuff established in Dewgong in a half decent manner maybe a little something to expand his game on the those inputs would have been appreciated. Regardless, it is a solid set for the Pokemon, feeling very in character and at least somewhat enjoyable to play.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Ridley
This set's gone over pretty well compared to your others actually, from what I've observed, while it's admittedly very simple it doesn't have your usual issue of placing interactions on the wrong inputs and there's a bit more substance to his playstyle in that it feels less spammy than something like Ratchet and Clank. You did clearly try to put in more effort on the grab too, which while kind of interesting was also a bit hard to understand because of the writing. That said, I actually do think your ambition with stuff like Ratchet and Clank or Batman isn't a bad idea, the thing is that inputs that interact that are placed on standards/smashes/aerials/throws should at least serve as attacks as well. If you can manage that, you'll easily be able to outdo this set and your others, though I don't mind this one for what it is, a fairly realistic implementation of Ridley into SSB4.[/collapse]
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[collapse="crazyal02"]First off, I love the presentation used for Anna. The symbols are a neat way to express the technical properties of a move without trying to awkwardly work it into the description. As for the moveset itself: Although I can't be certain of this as I'm not familiar with the Fire Emblem series, an item-centric moveset seems fitting for a merchant. Impressively, you've created one that doesn't fall apart when items are disabled; she creates her own with Treasure Hunt instead! I like how the Nspecial merely equips the item rather than instantly using it; I always found it annoying that Brawl Dedede's minions all had different properties, and yet you couldn't properly plan approaches with it as you didn't know who your next minion was. In this way, Treasure Hunt reminds me of Luigi-M's misfires. Her Side and Down Specials are simple yet unique concepts that tie into strange usage of items. As with most sets, however, the real depth is in her A moves. Anna has woven a web of feints and tricks, and having an item only adds to the fun. Nearly every move has a way to branch into an alternate attack, allowing players to keep opponents on their toes. I especially like her jab, which can have as much lag as you want! Despite this, perhaps my favorite attack isn't an attack at all: her Side Taunt. The idea of starting a random attack animation even though you aren't using it is a cool one, and I chuckle at the thought of foes running away from what appears to be Anna using her Side Special while carrying the Berserk Staff! The main troubles are a few oversights; it seems to be possible to get infinite recovery with her Up-B, and I'm not sure how she can reach out with her free hand to grab if she's dual wielding an item and her sword. Regardless, it's a very solid set![/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Annabomination
I apologize profously, Conren, for not responding to Anna's Whiteboard preview and helping with the moveset. Problem #1 from Anna stems from her unconvential organization: While the idea is not necessarily bad, what it mostly does is confuse the reader and make figuring out the information more difficult. I had to read the legend spoiler at the top about 3 times to fully comprehend what it meant and then had to check the little squares before each move, which felt intrusive to the reading experience and made things more difficult rather than easier. Anna's item generation isn't exactly a bad idea, but the problem is that many of the items Anna can spawn are horrifying: The light rune is particularly horrifying, as you can throw one out, and then dig for many items until you get a light rune or one of your other potent items, particularly the worst one, the Berserker Staff. Even worse than stun is losing total control of your character and then watching the AI flip out over the light rune well and it combined with the sleep staff form a truly horrifying combination, especially with light rune protection, while the other items do not feel like they do much, though the landmine is not bad. Side Special is also a bit poor: Since it only steals items, it is a totally wasted special in itemless enviroments or if you have control over your weapons or have no more room to hold weapons, in addition to feeling slightly awkward, perhaps Anna swiping the foe for some damage and quickly nabbing the item would be superior? Past that, sadly, is not much else to it, as the rest of the moveset largely does not flow or take advantage of it's weapons. I am sure it is dissapointing to hear this after Vespiquen last contest, Conren, but I am confident in you. Just need to chin up, move on to the next moveset and I'm sure it will be better.[/collapse]
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[collapse="crazyal02"]What!? A challenger approaches and his set is ignored? Let's take on Puck. First off, the cooldown system is a simple yet effective way to prevent spamming spells without immobilizing the character for crazy amounts of time. However, it'd be nice if there was some kind of visual cue to signify that a spell is available for use. Also, his Fthrow is better than Waning Rift in basically every way; longer duration, no cooldown, plus it buffs all of Puck's specials? That's quite OP in a set that was already teetering over the edge. Even considering Project M's more stringent hitstun, Puck is also crazy good at recovery; he can stopp all momentum with Phase Shift, then teleport to his Illusionary Orb or simply use Blink to travel 2 Battlefield platforms. Also, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping players from using Phase Shift, hitting A to exit, then reentering Phase Shift, allowing near-infinite stalling. It's important to look out for mechanics exploits like this. Despite these flaws, however, this is a very solid set! Welcome to MYM, powergoat![/collapse]
[collapse="JOE!"]
@
powergoat :
Puck has some really cool concepts in there, but unfortunately suffers from a bit of redundancy as well as some conceptually broken attributes.
The specials do have neat ideas to them, I'm especially a fan of the projectile that you can teleport to at will (a very clever concept for zoning!) as well as Silence. However, Silence by itself is kind of overpowered as an AoE that stops special use. Just go offstage and shoot it out and you can kill anyone not named Kirby or Jigglypuff. The Up B teleport is fine as-is, given he also has Side B to work with for some greatly varied movement (though you could have pushed it far more). The Down B however I feel doesn't really belong as he has no benefit for doing it other than a second Up B, and anything he does merely ends the move. His Down Dilt would have made a much better Down B in my opinion, as not only is a damage field a unique ability, but having that move on a tilt of all things just seems like a special move you couldn't fit in. To keep in the phasing, you could have made it a unique dodge animation or even dodge mechanic, so you wouldn't lose it from his character
Speaking of the character, you do create a decent sense of his character (or rather her?) throughout the various magic items and general magic energy... but we never even get a full picture of Puck! It's tough to imagine what Puck looks like performing moves without a solid pic to go off of, and is generally a running issue with the set. You have a good bunch of solid ideas (like the rising tornado uthrow), but the way it's written is hard for the reader to get a grasp on. The throws also take away some of the special's uniqueness, being kind of copies of them.
All in all, it is a good first set as you definitely have the imagination to do clever moves and mechanics. However, just a little more TLC and polish is needed here and there to really let the set shine.
Personally speaking, it would have been neat to really emphasize Puck's teleportation and move canceling seeing as you gave it a cool side B teleport and a general-use Up B teleport, along with the unique ability to lock out abilities. It could lead to very cool stage control![/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Ruby
I'm not sure this set will go over as well with others as it did with me, but regardless I do find despite the set's simplicity it approaches in smash in a way we haven't truly seen before. Rather than trying to create combos with slow projectiles or just straight movement tricks, it actually uses a projectile for propulsion, which gets played off in some fairly interesting ways, such as the Up Smash and Dash Attack allowing for some fairly ridiculous ranged approaches or spacial control at the cost of possible suicides and tons of end lag. The variations between the regular, normal clipped, and cross clipped variations of the moves are fun in that they all have separate uses that never directly outclass other variations of the move, and while I have my doubts the set has nearly the capacity for huge combos of for example, Kaguya, the ones she does have are made a fair bit more interesting by the risk associated in using the clips to potentially go further with them.
As for complaints, the fairly obvious one is that the set has an ammo bank, and I'm pretty strongly opposed to those as a rule, but given reloading doesn't seem that terrible and it's nothing you emphasize too terribly much, it's nothing offensive. And while there is some flow to the set, it doesn't amount to much more than follow-ups done in some fairly unique ways and the Dash Attack set ups, which are fun but while the set has depth I wonder if maybe more could have been done to make the set feel more cohesive. It's nothing bad, it plays in a fairly unique way and there's some fun risk-reward stuff in here, but I wonder if I like it more than I should.[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Ruby Rose
Alright, starting with another, less tiny complaint: even though it's not the reddest red SWF has, the block of red still makes the set slightly annoying to read, as the combination of red and gray really wears on the eyes and all that. Quickly glancing, it looks like this is the only one of the four that has this problem, though. Onto the actual moveset, though!
Alright, so right away, we have another seemingly bullet hell character from Froy, which is fine by me, you do this genre really well. I like the neutral special's use of rounds, it's quite simple and effective. The Down Special is pretty interesting, as a pseudo-counter and as a way to bounce projectiles back. I don't know if that'll come into play much, but you've got me intrigued. The Up Special is pretty nice, too, not only does it give her a great comboing option, it makes her feel just as speedy as she is, what with it not putting her into helpless. The side special is an awesome piece of in-smash creativity on your part, utilizing the freeze-frames is kind of brilliant, especially when paired with the Neutral Special.
The Standard attacks feel suitably speedy for what you've introduced, with the FTilt playing off of the SSpecial pretty well, and the DTilt adding another way to rack damage with the scythe (I feel as though I was wrong about this being a Bullet Hell) and the Utilt being a pretty great combo starter and the Dash adding in another pretty awesome mobile move, making her into some pretty heavy high-risk, high-reward type of situation. Just the standards and specials alone flow together very well, I'm interested to see where this gets taken.
The Forward Smash does not disappoint, on top of being pretty visually appealing, it's a pretty potent killer and definitely playing up the high risk factor of the character. The following two also work pretty decently well, with the Down Smash again utilizing those freeze-frames fairly well and the Up Smash being another good combo/launcher.
The Grab Game s rather unexciting, as aside from the Back Throw and maybe the Forward Throw don't add a particularly large amount to the game that you've set up. That said, the Back Throw itself adds a lot of incentive to keep on a constant attack with the rose petal wound, and Ruby certainly has a ton of options to follow up on it. That said, the rest of the grab game feels weak compared to the rest of the set, but it does do a fairly decent job at at least starting combos and such.
The aerials are fairly simple what with comboing and all that, but with the Neutral Special mechanic present it makes it more varied and deep than it would be otherwise. Not too much to say here, other than it all working nicely together.
So, yeah, overall Ruby is a lot of fun to be had, with the Neutral Special in particular adding a lot to the depth of the character, as well as some fun use of freeze-frames, a mechanic not seen too often adding a lot to the playstyle and pushoing it beyond simple comboing. Ruby is a real gem, is what I'm saying.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]GARY’S MOD FAN VIDEO CHARACTERS
I have very little constructive to say about most of RWBY. All of them are incredibly wordy and are chock full of filler, and there really seems to be no reason for the moves to go into so much detail when they’re so simplistic (Especially Ruby and Blake). Heat Man was refreshing to read after these when he used your old writing style, and he also knew what the return key was.
Ruby and Yang I have just about nothing to say period specifically about them. Ruby’s playstyle is something vague with combos at best, and I don’t even really see that. The mechanic of having to press Neutral Special during other moves also feels weird and unintuitive, especially during a throw. Yang is filler most of the way through and her “playstyle” is an ammo bank and traps with filler. . .But honestly, I can see more playstyle in it than Ruby, which has just about nothing.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Ruby
I've already told you that I like Ruby, and it's a fun little set you've got here. The control scheme is a bit overwhelming, what with the constant use of Neutral Special in the middle of other attacks, and I wish that you'd come up with a more simple way to execute these moves. Maybe a simple double tap of the A button? The two varieties of ammo types are my biggest problem with the way the set works, with how neither of her two 'styles' feel really intuitive to me and a lot of the changes to her moveset seem a bit unpreditable, with some moves becoming faster, others slower, etc. Still though, the combination of mobility and offensiveness of the set is fun, and something that I always enjoy seeing from you.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Weiss
The appeal in this set is a lot more apparent than Ruby, as while they're similar in being rushdown-ish sets, Weiss does it in a much more immediately exciting way, setting up massive customizable ice structures she can wall run on and rebound between, as well as setting up projectiles and traps that all lead in really nicely to her melee game. I particularly like the counter projectile, it's pretty fun in conjunction with the Black Ice and Weiss' movement stuff to constantly dart around it for protection during assaults. The projectiles on their own are pretty fun too, between being able to make ones that drill holes in or sculpt your ice, or better yet the boomerang one on Up Smash, which can be frozen at all sorts of weird angles thanks to black ice gives the set an incredible amount of versatility in setting up it's combos.
This is compounded a bit by the air step stuff, which admittedly is a bit bland on the surface as it's "just a movement tool". It gives her a pretty insane aerial presense though, which is great for rebounding off your own ice structures or utilizing her anti-gravity glyphs. Because of this Weiss does have some occasional admittedly simple melee, but the depth in her other options that actually flow into simple melee makes it worth it, and some of the melee does a very good job of taking it into account, like the Fair. If I have one complaint with this set, it actually doesn't have to do with said melee, but rather I'm not a big fan of how Weiss uses the ice for actual ice purposes in FSmash and FThrow, the former of which feels fairly annoying due to it's interaction with the counter projectile as Weiss can easily stay out of their grab range, and the later feels very very fillerish. It's only a small number of moves though(and even with FSmash you have some fun using it with ice structures, I only wish the actual hitbox felt good), and I think the set makes very good use of it's potential. Perhaps this is due to my rather low opinion of this contest's set quality, but this is my favorite set posted thus far.[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Weiss Schnee
This moveset is infinitely more readable thanks to the color scheme used.
Right off the bat with the first two specials you create an interesting dynamic with the fire and ice. The Neutral special itself is incredibly diverse in a very good way, allowing for a variety of options with the walls and slopes and such, and the fire definitely in intriguing, basically allowing you to create tiny holes through which to fire projectiles, particularly low-to-the=ground projectiles, whcih you specifically mention, and is pretty intriguing. The down special is pretty freaking awesome, I don't think we've seen many fire-able counters, and the concept alone is something that I'll probably end up stealing for myself incredibly useful in a variety of situations, and I'm actually very pumped for the rest of the set to see how you play off of it. The Up Special adds a lot of mobility to the set, and with all of the ice she's likely to have created is definitely a fun move to be used.
The forward smash plays extremely well off of the Neutral Special and the side special, allowing for an incredibly versatile and useful attack in a wide variety of situations, not to mention the usefulness of an impaling attack for a character with a move-able counter. The Down Smash is again a fun move made even better by the Neutral Special, again being best described as being incredibly versatile, which can also be said about the Up Smash. The Smashes in general lend themselves to a lot of fun and interesting combinations with the walls she can so easily scale.
The Jab and Forward Tilt seem fairly standard (hehe) at first, though the puncturing effect of the FTilt make it significantly more interesting and useful. The Down Tilt is especially cool (hehe) what with the projectile freezing and such, especially what it means in conjunction with your Up Smash and Down Special, and especially when it's paired with the Neutral Special's ice structures. Up Tilt is exactly how you describe it, simple and fitting, and made much more diverse by the fact that it can come out an any angle. The Dash Attack is simple yet effective, and works well with the Up Special and generally the rest of her attacks, allowing for interesting combos and variations thanks to her ice structures. Good stuff all around.
Right off the bat, the Forward Throw is quite interesting, though potentially somewhat broken, though the relatively low knockback and the fact that the stage should be littered with ice structures makes up for that. The down throw is an interesting aerial combat starter, so I'm interested to see how you follow up with that. The Up Throw is definitely an interesting move when paired with the ice structures and black glyphs, and easily sets up for follow-ups. The back throw is easily the weakest of the bunch, but it at least has usefulness to it, what with throwing opponents into frozen projectiles and such, it just adds the least to the the overall game.
The aerials have a simple quality to them, but each have their own usefulness, such with the NAir's recovery options and the KO potential of the Fair, though I was hoping for more projectiles and such, the physical attacks work well with the rest of the lasid out game and it ties it together nicely, if just not in an incredibly unique way.
So, yeah, I kind of love Weiss. It's got tons of awesome potential just radiating off of it, though I think there may have been some missed potential to further play off of that moving counter, and maybe a few more projectile options would have been nice, but as is, I overall really love this set and am looking forward to reading the rest of RWBY.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]WALL HUMPING
Weiss’ ice walls are where most of her flow comes from, but they don’t really accomplish much outside of more campy purposes. She can make a hole too small for characters taller than her to go through as she shoots projectiles out through it, which is largely the most well thought out use of it. It can help with mobility, but your Up Special can go in any direction anyway, it does not have to be angled off of a wall. You can use it to angle your various attacks, but this is largely just a hassle and the purpose could exist if the moves could just be angled where you want them in the first place. If I want to use my otherwise useless usmash projectile that goes up and hits nothing to actually hit people in front of me, I have to arbitrarily stand on a wall to do so. The best use that it has into flowing into the more generic stuff is probably just destroying foes horribly against walls, and I’m surprised as little was done to prevent that as there was, coming from you. I also don’t see this character having the luxury of setting up many of these walls either, frail as they are, and even the fans of this moveset would admit it’s incredibly boring without those. They could be made more durable, but then her camping becomes too powerful and largely takes over the moveset.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Weiss
It's not hard to see why this set is getting the most attention of all your RWBY movesets; it has by far the most imaginative ideas in mind. A little bit of it feels tacky to me, the down tilt flusters my scruples in more than a few ways, but with some of the changes you've made to the set I can wholeheartedly endorse it as a good job on your part. The set is imaginative, has plenty of potential for user innovation yet remains relatively straightforward and easy to understand, which is a duality that I enjoy especially.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Blake
I've been really sick of mindgames based duplicates sets for a while now, so obviously I'm all for a duplicates set that doesn't remotely bother to try to make illusions out of it(mind you, this doesn't change the fact that I like Reisen, but I feel that was the only set that really did it right). What helps is of course the idea of using a multi-tether similar to Don Thousand's FThrow, or of course the various mix-up you can perform by putting a duplicate in Blake's place, whether to take hits or set up combos. The grab game actually feels very inspired, especially in the context of duplicates who can be set up to be thrown as a projectile and simulataneously perform an attack, or you can just leave a foe in their grip. It also makes moves like her FSmash, which either have a hard to land sweet spot or tons of lag, more useable by delegating them to a duplicate and then striking yourself, or using their tethers to keep the opponent in an ideal position. The use of the gun on the weapon is also fun, just for the extra spacing incentives.
While the set is good, I do feel the filler here is more pronounced than in Ruby or Weiss, because unlike Ruby the moves aren't all designed with the mechanic in mind and unlike Weiss you don't have quite as many ways to make interesting combos out of them. It's not necessarily a bad thing, as the set is conceptually strong, but I feel there's less of a general sense of flow past the specials. Not that it isn't there, but it's mostly confined to the grab game, and some moves just do general useful things like the Jab/Ftilt's blocking ability, which is fine but it feels like something any character would want and only gets slightly better with the duplicates. Certainly a fun set though.[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Blake Belladonna
So right off the bat here we start with an incredibly simple projectile, which I can only assume means we're about to get into some crazy s*** to play off of it, which is incredibly fine by me. Also, my black cat image seems to fit even more what with the spider-man like up special, though the later applications of the move move away from that, making a very cool tether attack that's quite different from the kind we're used to seeing. This combined with the Noob Saibot-y Down Special has some fun options to it, ones that you specifically mention yourself, and the variety of ways to summon these shadows makes for a few cool uses, each with their own applications at different times. The Side special is pretty awesome tethering move, especially in conjunction with the shadow clones.
The Jab is actually a pretty interesting attack, a moving deflector that can be pulled out extremely fast is obviously going to be useful in quite a number of situations, and the ability to make the shadow clone a living wall of deflection is a pretty nice touch too. The tilts in general are very defensive, each seeming to have some defensive properties, though down and up tilt obviously have their offensive properties too. The dash attack, though, is a very nice, purely offensive move, and one that opens up a variety of options right off the bat.
The grab game, particularly the tether grab, is really cool, as well is the fact that you can grab your shadows. The Down Throw is cool mostly for it's effects on the shadows or it's usefulness in FFAs, which, other than that, lead it mostly into a fairly standard throw. The ability to turn it into literally a human shield with the shadows is pretty devious though,and obviously allows Blake to fire off quite a few shots in a short amount of time without having to worry about getting hit. The rest of the throws play nicely with the shadows, but on their own, don't really seem to add too much to the overall gameplan.
The smash attacks on their own aren't very exciting, actually being very standard, but they have quite a few ways to work off of the specials, which make them more interesting and fun. Going back and talking about the specials for a bit, in particular, the Up special seems to be the one that really ties the moveset together, with the down special adding in more interesting options, naturally playing off of the attacks, which is obviously the very nature of the shadows.
Overall, the aerials, outside of the Down Aerials quickness should it be landed during, are kind of bland and don't seem to do much besides add a few extra move to be comboed into, which is fine, that's all they really need to be and, hey, they function, but it still leaves me wanting a bit more.
Wanting a bit more is my overall feeling of Blake as a whole actually, as the shadows and tether bring rise to quite a bit of potential that I don't think was fully realized. Its got its good stuff, and it functions a a set and plays exactly the way it's supposed to, but I just feel like it's missing a bit of substance that could have made it great like Weiss. As it stands, it's merely a pretty solid set.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]NEGATIVE POWER CREEP
Blake is a moveset based around summoning a 13 HP duplicate that lasts for 2.5 seconds. I know we’ve become a lot more number conscious and it seems leaning towards UP is generally more acceptable, but going in that direction eventually gets us stuff like this. Yes, the moveset is geared towards only using the duplicate for a brief amount of time. . .Or it’s supposed to be, anyway. When the moveset isn’t talking about the duplicate, it’s about as boring and lifeless as Ruby. The bthrow also entirely invalidates the normal summoning of the duplicate, as it summons the duplicate for free –and- has them grab the foe. Meanwhile, the fsmash’s only purpose is to land the sweetspot on restrained foes from bthrow or Up Special instead of actually spacing it. There is also an entirely pointless mechanic based around using the sheath vs the katana that contributes nothing to the moveset but a small aesthetic, in exchange for forcing us to read cliffnotes at the end of just about every move when it’s already wordy as hell. At this point, I’d also recommend you start putting your long intros for these characters in collapse tags bar the first paragraph that actually says who the character is, as at this point it’s coming off as little more than fan gushing.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Blake
Blake confused me when I first read through it, the way her weapon works is by far the most complicated of all the characters. What you've got here is more than solid though; I like how her duplicates are used offensively, it's an idea that I've been toying around with myself for quite a while but never put into a set the way I meant to. I feel that Blake especially suffers from the lack of a real playstyle section though; I'd like to see more in depth how you envision her working.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Yang
Unlike the other RWBY sets I'm not much of a fan of Yang, and part of the reason for that really just comes down to it relying a lot on ammo bank. I never thought ammo bank was a compelling concept as it doesn't provide real flow and just interrupts the flow of the match to require you to reload. Which is a shame, as Yang actually does feel kind of fun to play otherwise, with the concept of creating mines all over the stage and having attacks that allow you to reasonably play off them, by preventing her from suiciding into the them while still having effective attacking capability, or being able to set them off on odd parts of the stage using Yang's shockwaves. I feel through the specials and smashes the set at least does try to emphasize the mines in a decent way, it's just there's only so far you can go with that, and it falls off for most of the rest of the set barring one cool throw. I think if you exclusively focused on the mines, I could've liked this set, but ammo bank stuff is too dull and lacking in depth to be emphasized as much as it is.[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Yang Xiao Long
Yang's Neutral Special is a nice variant on the Neutral Special present in Ruby, a nice touch considering the sisterly relationship between the two characters, and certainly retains it's usefulness. The Down Special is pretty cool as well, fully taking advantage of the weapon and improving on an existing Brawl attack at the same time. The Up Special is a nice, quick move that allows for some quick movements, and Side Special is kind of a surprising Ganon clone that works really well in regards to what you have thus far.
The first two smashes offer some nice timed attacks, playing off of the mines rather well, giving her a sort of trappy feel, or at least necceccitating a technically skilled player to pull of well. The Up Smash is nothing special to be completely honest, and kind of feels a bit like a wasted input, or something that could have been put on a tilt, but it at least offers an interesting follow up option with the Up Special or mines.
The jab I actually find to be a pretty neat damage racker, which plays off of the weapon she uses pretty nicely, while the forward tilt is a nice quasi-counter. The down tilt is a decent enough combo starter, allowing Yang to, as you put it, "pop" opponents into awkward positions. The dash attack plays well with the mines, and the Up Tilt, well, the up tilt seems a bit filler-ish to be completely honest.
Outside of the forward throw, the throws don't really seem to do much to advance her playstyle, though the FThrow is actually really cool wha with it halping the foe unintentionally set off mines. The back throw, while not glorious, at least serves a purpose and is pretty useful in the context of the rest of the set.
I feel much the same about Yang's aerials as I do about most of the ether RWBY's aerials, in that they don't really add much to the playstyle outside of offering up decent combo fodder, which is a bit of a shame considering the potential with the weapon and projectile.
Soo, yeah, after a strong start Yang kind of wears itself out fairly quickly, which is unfortunate because I think that the specials offer a very strong and potentially interesting base. Overall, I like all of the RWBY sets you posted, but one (Weiss) definitely stands head and shoulders above the other three.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Yang
This set has gotten some flak for many of the reasons that I like it. It's a relatively simple, aggressive moveset with a lot of potential in how its ideas are used. The use of triggered land mines is very interesting in all the ways it can affect the spacing game, and I like when simple ideas are expanded on in movesets like this. Again, I feel like you overpower the throws in movesets like Sho did, and Yang feels like a very powerful grappler on a character where that doesn't seem to be the focus.[/collapse]
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[collapse="crazyal02"]Isabelle, overall, feels rushed. First off, it's not stated how quickly charging her specials depletes her Bell count, which is vital to understanding the set's balance and mechanics. You have some neat concepts in the specials here, but it's difficult to tell whether they're OP or UP. It'd also be neat if some of her A-button moves depleted Bells: I mean, the Dair was asking for it! There are a couple of other neat moves; I like her unique pummel, but overall the rest of the moveset is basically generic moves hastily covered up with props. Perhaps the biggest sign of lack of effort, however, is the playstyle section, which encompasses a grand total of 4 words. You stated back at the top of the post that "I must retain my throne", but it's better from every perspective to spend time on just a few sets rather than farting them out at the speed of sound.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Isabelle of Spain
Isabelle has a lot of problems inside of it: While Isabelle may herself not be a fighter, the Villager isn't either really, but the Villager still actually uses his items as intentional attacks, while Isabelle trips and flops her away across the moveset, with very awkward things such as summoning minions, sometimes on bizarre inputs. But first I want to tackle a key line in this moveset, though I am pretty sure it was intended to be humorous: "Nair- Isabelle delivers swift air jab that deals 7%! Although some of you may say this attack is "uninspired", "generic", and "I hate you, Kiwi", what more do you expect from a poor puppy like Isabelle, who's never been trained in fighting?"
I will use this to transition into some general discussion from reading your movesets. It isn't that the moves are "generic" or "uninspired", it is that they don't tend to work towards anything. You don't necessarily need to work towards one unified goal, as a character does not always have one, however most good sets have a playstyle, which is how they play, and how it works into it, be a strength or a weakness. Ike's playstyle is that of a heavy, swordsmanship laden bruiser, who uses strength and range to muscle through other characters and moves like counters as a dominator at close ranges and Side Special to close in on far away foes, but with a distinct weakness in lag he must compensate with moves like jab, playing for the right moment, and to projectiles. Fox is a fast, fragile speedster who hits hard, and the like. The problem with a large amount of your sets, Borth-Majar the most major exception, is that they lack this playstyle. The attacks are often described as such that, even if there is something to be seen, it is very hard to do so, and rarely do many moves work into the playstyle or even really attempt to. Borth-Majar's Specials and the attempt, and sometimes success, of the Tilts and Smashes was a great step forward in this department, even if the grabs and aerials were lackluster for not following through. Isabelle has a mechanic, sure, but how does she best want to use it? It feels like a collection of random attacks with sometimes tacky effects without cohesion. Does Isabelle prefer to play at a range? How does she spend her bells and what are the choices here, does she want to change up how she sets up depending on the type of opposing character, what are ideal setups for Isabelle and what counters her setups and how does she react to these counters? And how do Isabelle's attacks work into this, even in the simplest of ways, and further enhance how she plays?
It isn't that they're generic: A punch, a kick, a slash, they can all be interesting if utilized properly, if you use it not as a collection of attacks but instead as working towards one playstyle, perhaps instead of just saying they slash forward and they deal a damage % and knockback, it tells us more, say talking about how the Forward Tilt is ideal for getting a foe into a midrange for some other moves or for attacking/retreating, but that in turn this knockback is not great at truly getting breathing space, and so on, and those are just very simple applications. In my opinion, this in part stems from the fact that you write your movesets fast: I am a fast movesetter and my movesets usually take 1-3 days, and usually unless it is a quickie one day set it will not just be a few hours of work, or if I do it will be a fair deal of intense thought.
I also feel that you are harmed by your lack of commenting: Commenting is not just a tool to help the skill of others, but to help your own. By understanding and articulating the reasons you enjoy other sets, you can further apply the knowledge to your own sets, to better understand what you enjoy in a moveset and ergo what you can make in a moveset for yourself and others to enjoy. I would recommend taking a handful, 5 or so, of sets that you have a strong opinion on, be it liking ot disliking, and sitting down and making a comment on it, maybe even reread the moveset. Consider what you enjoyed and did not enjoy about the moveset, even what you may have enjoyed in a moveset you found bad and vice versa, and articulate it into a comment, post it in the thread and whatnot. Consider how their playstyle worked, how their moves worked into each other, and apply this knowledge to a set you will make. Take more time on the next set, take longer sessions and think for a longer amount of time than you may find usual on the moves, close your eyes and perhaps imagine how it would play out in a game, preview it out to people as you complete it and even as it is completed and try to get the best feedback you can. You won't become an amazing movesetter overnight, nobody does, but I sincerely believe you have the talent to at least make quality sets: Borth-Majar may not be a set that blows people away, but it got pretty consistant 5+ stars, it shows that you have potential inside of you, it just needs to grow. Don't get discourage, take heed of advice and do not be afraid to ask other people for help. If you do not do so already, you may also find it enlightening to read other peoples comments on sets that are not yours often: By understanding the mind of people and how they perceive sets, including in how they do so differently from you and what they look for in a set (Note that you do not have to look for the same things, people are not carbon copies of each other, but even just gaining knowledge of this helps you) and consider such things in your own sets and what you think of it and whatnot.
I hope this advice has been sincerely helpful to you, ChaosKiwi, and I look forward to perhaps seeing that set, if you take my advice.[/collapse]
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[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Three's a Crowd
So it's ForwardArrow's third moveset, aptly named...er...Three. I look forward to more direct titles like this, such as "Non-Humanoid Antagonist". Getting past some jokes, though, Three is one fine moveset, and something I think is truly great here. The start of Three with her minions is exquisite, and might I add I do love the coloring of the headers here, as the minions are wide and varied and all have apparent playstyle uses, things like Imp as a basic but somewhat poor minion who nonetheless has some point, Ogres and Gigas as big damage soakers and dealers, the Almlsael dolls as ranged components, and finally the Cerberus as the big, bad wolf of the minions, all with varied uses and take pains to be used in different ways as to be parts of Three's playstyle excellently. I especially enjoy how much that, aside from perhaps the Ogre and Gigas, it feels like every minion serves a purpose and you do not just want to automatically jump to the next tier of minion just because it is stronger. The additions of buffing them on Side Special and other utilizations of them with your scissors, from movement to shedding blood for your Intoner Mode for comboing or even comboing them with your enemies, is handled in a lovely and flowing way, though perhaps the shrinking effect is arguably a bit poor. I liked the restraint shown here: While some may say that Three needed more minion manipulation, I feel that she has plenty, especially when combined with the fact she needs a combo game and the like, not to mention that with a good deal of complexity and depth in what she can do already and how redundant much would be that adding more to this part of the set would just be making it more soupy. Intoner Mode might not revolutionize the world, but it is a very well executed buff, and the idea of utilizing minion "super attacks" like that seems like something rarely seen and appealing, especially when combined with the fact you much assess using it against more time in Intoner Mode and such, and the fact that Intoner Mode encourages a more offensive onslaught works well with Three wanting to get much more up close and personal like this. It also feels fitting character-wise: Three goes from being a bit more lazy and laid back to more motivation and striking. Even the Up Special, with it's many similiarities to Marth's, adds it's own flair that works into the playstyle, while remaining un-intrusive. The Shield Special also offers a fun choice between power and control that works doubly well with Intoner Mode and which I further feel plays off of Three's minion selections: What the minions can do takes on a whole new meaning when you consider how they will strike Three on the Human Hybrids and how the minion's moves work when they fight against Three as well. It is an effective way to add a new dimension to them and almost feels like a fitting extension of one of Sho's throws, the one that let the opponent somewhat have Taboo control.
The Standards don't let up this high quality as they continue: Simple little things like how the Jab works are nice and the Up Tilt is an especially nice move, Three having to react to the opponent DIing or not and how her scissors affect that, while giving the foe a fine descision even when being hit, a snap action to make, with Three having a variety of options to follow-through. The DACUS usage in the Dash Attack is nice, especially when you consider that Three's Up Smash seems nicely built with it, considering it's multi-hit nature, just how the last hit works (Such as allowing her to approach afoe and try to ONLY hit with enough to set into it), and my favorite of DACUSing right into an energy projectile to absorb it into Three's scissors and strike right back at the foe. The Forward Tilt is a nice tool for Three that works into both her minions and her combos, making one of a few nice bridges between the two, while being a fine yet simple move in it's own right, adding depth to it in the context of all others, such as the larger and sweeping attacks of the Ogres and Gigas, to produce a projectile opposite of the Cerberus fireball and such, in addition to some general nice stuff with the sweetspot, and the Down Tilt while nothing especially special works excellently into the playstyle, a tool in Three's arsenal that gets the job of turning about minions, flowing with human hybrids and being a useful attack on foes and wraps them all into one nice, neat strike.
Three's Forward Smash and Down Smash may take an extra read to fully understand, but both are pretty nice: Forward Smash is a good tool in her combo melee game, or even just a general melee game, and feels like a miniature but appropriate take on Dancing Blade almost, with a variety of follow-ups that while not differing as much in direction allows Three a great deal of choice and the foe a good deal to keep aware of when dodging, not to mention a fairly decent blood generator and the flow it has with the minions. Down Smash's defensive abilities are logical and fit a nice part of Three's moveset, giving her a much needed option to defend against enemies, yet making it fit into the playstyle as a more niche defensive move and not be overwhelming as to remain a bit of a weak spot for Three. The good use of turning it into an interesting risk/reward hitbox in addition to that is grand and the Up Smash in general is a fine move that I already talked about some earlier. The aerials are also largely good, with the notable exception of the Back Aerial, perhaps the only move in the set I would say is truly bad, though moreso because it does not feel that it fits into the set more than anything the move itself does. Up Aerial is perhaps slightly bland, but the trap left behind it is fairly interesting (Reminds me of Yang's UAir, for that matter) and Three frankly needed a nice and simple juggler like this. Indeed, it is the gentle touches on the grab game and aerials that pushed this set truly over the edge for me: Neutral Aerial's semi-blocking nature, Forward Aerial's perfectly fitting into it's necessary role and good move properties on it's own, Down Aerial's working into playing with big minions and the way it interacts with air and ground, it is all very solid stuff on the aerials, and the grab game itself also forms a solid part of the moveset that fits exactly what it needs to, with perhaps a bit more flair. The Up Throw is a move again sme may deride as a bit "bland", but I feel it is exactly what Three needed, as she lacks a "true" launcher but aerial play is still a good part of her moveset and it helps fit a simple use of it that is also not particularly amazing and thus helps keep Three grounded. I actually quite enjoy the effects of the pummel and Forward Throw, though I expect this to be a slightly descisive topic, and the character in it combined with things like the damage over time (essentially) potential combined with close ranged striking or minion play and the way the Forward Throw asks for Three to work extra for some more blood is great. Down Throw is probably the iffiest overall, but I did enjoy the effect: I am perhaps unsure of the exact numbering, but this seems...about okay and it helps give Three a throw that truly rewards proper setup.
So overall, yeah, I REALLY liked Three. Her combo playstyle mixed with minions, the interplay of the normal minions with the Human Hybrids, the characterization and the way everything fits, and truly the use of simple yet deep moves in the last 1/3rd of the moveset or so spoke to me, it gave Three room to breathe and kept her from being too stuffed with irrelevancies or with frivolities and made both of her playstyles stronger in their presence. If I am to have complains, I am guessing there are some numbers in here I didn't really fully notice but could use tweaking, perhaps on the Down Throw or in the number of hits on a move or two, and I am sure that an argument could be made that Three did not "go far enough", though I heavily disagree with this, and the Back Aerial, are my only true overall complains. And that is why I am proud to award this moveset my first 10 star rankings of the contest and ForwardArrow's first offical 10 Star ranking on my rankings (Urabrask is 10 stars, but I was not around in MYM11!).[/collapse]
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Intoner Three
Obligatory TL;DR joke here, FA wrote a novel, blah blah blah, onto the actual moveset itself.
First, a very tiny complaint: I think the Neutral Special could have benefited from having pictures of the summoned minions, especially on the dolls and on the Gigas, just to help with visualization. That said, I really like the method of summoning present in the attack, a charged summon flows so well into a natural battle. The effects of the side special serve these minions even work really well with such a wide variety of minions that can be summoned, and the down special blood mechanic works even better. The shield special also plays off rather brilliantly from the Neutral Special, creating minions that are stronger but way less loyal? Good stuff.
Aside from the Down Tilt's slight minion controlling and the Forward Tilt's Intoner mode projectiles, the standards are, almost thankfully, quite standard. I approve of the choice to not try to stack too many special mechanics on the tilts: the spilling blood mechanic works perfectly well within these inputs, and there are even a few soft interactions hidden within here, mostly with the minions occupying the foe for you while you position yourself perfectly for the attack. Again, good stuff.
The Forward Smash is a deceptively simple attack that I actually enjoyed a lot, as there's a ton of strategy coming out of just one input and three hits, rather brilliant stuff here. The Down Smash is equally brilliant for the exact opposite reason, it's a bit complex but it flows very well with what the rest of the set is doing. The Up Smash is, like the FSmash, pretty simple but a very effective way to do what you're doing. The amount of detail you go into on these attacks is bordering on insane, but it's most definitely appreciated and it really makes the set work.
The aerials are again fairly simple but have lots of nice added effects that don't seem too out of place, with exception of maybe the power storing on the Neutral Aerial, which, while not bad, doesn't really seem to add much besides an added effect on an aerial. I feel like maybe could have worked better on a Jab or tilt, but as is it's not -bad- by any means. As they are, the aerials are the weakest part of the moveset, but they're not offensive or bad by any means, just not very interesting and don't seem to offer too too much to the set, outside of a nice Juggle on the Up Aerial which, what with her blood spilling mechanic, could most definitely come in quite handy. But that Bair sucks, shame on you.
That pummel is really awesome, that's a pretty incredible way of crippling the for...maybe a little bit too much time, to be honest, but it forces an opponent to play extremely defensively or even chicken, running away for that amount of time. Hell, that gives Three much more time to summon a Cerberus if she hasn't already. The FThrow is also pretty great for basically the same reason. The rest of the throws are pretty great too, in particular the Back Throw.
So, yeah, overall Three is pretty great, there isn't much to complain about, honestly. The charged minion summon takes what would have made the character OP and makes it viable and easily countered if Three is playing a smart foe, and the blood mechanic and intoner mode offer depth to the character, and the incredibly wise decision on your part to make the moveset mostly simple yet deep combo gaming makes it all the better to take in. It's one of my favorites so far this contest, looking forward to your next, FA![/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]OFFENSIVE JARAD
This moveset is how you do minions that are hostile to the player – giving the summoner actual benefits for fighting them rather than the foe, so there’s point to it. Regardless, while reaping blood from your own minions is an element in the set, the moveset is first and foremost concerned with the foe, as opposed to garbage like Lucio Fulci that gets his inputs too caught up by fighting his own constructs.
While moves can get a little bit boring at times when the minions aren’t involved in the context of them, the blood mechanic and atoner mode is almost universally present as something to spice things up. This moveset is one of your best for the sheer dedication it has to trying to give everything a purpose, and despite some of the more simplistic moves actually does warrant the long move descriptions. This moveset is meaty, rather than just being filled with fluff.
Of course, you do really have to wonder just how much Three is going to be able to set-up, but in the least, unlike other movesets that assume set-up context, a chunk of it is obtained by actually fighting the foe normally, which is nice. Regardless, with how offensive she wants to be, it’s worrisome if she will actually get much more than imps, ogres, and the rare doll as minions, and if she can actually reach that ridiculously high 200% mark. In the least, that is one of the easier things to number crunch, and I think the moveset is plenty balanced regardless at this point, doing a very good job of holding together. I am more just worried that she won’t be able to do the more actually interesting parts of her moveset very much at this point that make this moveset as likable as it is.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Iku Nagae
The charge concept rewarding prediction is pretty fun to start with, we haven't actually seen a set based around charge like this since Sheep Man, and it's done a lot more appealingly here without a bunch of tacky crap based around storing it in batteries or whatever, and the actual method of acquiring it being fun. Aside from that, the playstyle seems to be spacial control with slow projectiles, which is pretty fun, and gets really interesting when you try to use them to get the foe on the move specifically so that awesome Down Special can hit them. Not that the spacial control doesn't have it's own highlights, the Down Aerial and Down Tilt being fairly awesome moves in their own right.
I do feel the prediction element flows fairly well into the controlling space bit, as it gives Iku a reasonable way to protect herself and actually allows her to create a powerful spacial control game if the opponent doesn't provide proper pressure, though if she reads them properly she can benefit more than if they didn't attack her in the first place. I do feel some of the later inputs, while they perform spacial control functions, don't really add so much as make it generically easier, while there are a couple good ones the ones that just let you choose knockback direction to trap the foe in slow projectiles makes me feel she won't be needing the prediction element as much as I wish she did. Ah well, it's nitpicking and I really enjoy the playstyle at work here even if it runs into a few weak spots, so good job Froy.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Iku
Who do you think you are with this coy electrical charge mechanic, Junahu? I'm immediately worried about how viable the character's core concept actually is... you're requiring that you first off land a counter, then that you grab the opponent within fifteen seconds and pummel them in order to actually get any charge whatsoever. It especially seems troubling that since Iku has such a strong incentive to land a counter that it would be easy for opponents to bait her into countering and grab her instead. I suppose she doesn't need a charge to be able to do anything, but that seems like an awful waste of a good idea. WIth that concern out of the way though, I feel rather neutral about the set, not liking it or disliking it particularly strongly. There's a tad too much creativity with moves like the airflow turning projectiles into traps, on a down tilt and all the different ways moves use, expend, or trade charges, without a clear rhyme or reason to why. Still though, it's a solid addition to your impressive repertoire of movesets.[/collapse]
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Goodra
by darth_meanie and JOE!
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Goodra
So, yay, a new dragon type moveset, mixed with the gloopey-goo kind of mechanic of which I'm very much a fan of. Sweet!
Right off the bat, I'm a fan of the way you make use of his special mechanic with Acid Armor, and with the Sap Sipper ability that makes it actually useful, making this seem like a decently effective approaching tool, what with the way it allows you to tank hits immediately following the approach. That's all good, natural-feeling stuff. Rain dance provides a nice counter to it, allowing a Goodra a choice between tanky and mobile, which I like quite a bit. Dragon Breath adds a nice interaction to both the natural mechanic and Rain Dance, as well as giving Goodra his first real offensive option. Draco Meteor is another very nice attack with a plethora of options, which you very neatly laid out, though personally I think the best option is forcibly putting your opponent into the path of a flaming space-rock, because that's metal as hell.
The Jab and Forward Tilt play off of both Goodra's natural physiology and each other, the jab in particular being a nice combo starter. The Up Tilt, while not particularly exciting, is at least incredibly useful and seemingly a good follow-up to the thunder clouds or the Jab (or both!), as well a decent kill move, and the Down Tilt is a pretty awesomely simple way to manipulate the puddles you have down. The Dash attack is pretty much exactly what I expected from the previous attacks, because it just fits so well. So, yeah, I'm enjoying this immensely so far.
Muddy Water is another attack that plays very naturally off of the mechanic, and while the Up Smash isn't exactly inspired or incredibly creative, it gets the job done and seems to make an excellent DACUS, especially out of the Dash Attack Goodra has. Forward Smash is fairly standard stuff, but it works decently well as a Forward Smash.
Goodra's aerials aren't nearly as exciting as his tilts or specials, which is honestly kind of disappointing considering he's a dragon and all. I guess he's not a flying dragon, so it's mildly understandable, I suppose. They work about as well as aerials can, though, as they're functional, though I like the Neutral Aerial's falling hitbox, as well as enjoying it's goofy-sounding animation.
The throws are much the same, though they have some interesting properties, such as the forward and back throws adding quite a bit on what you've already got. Unfortunately, I think that Goodra, much like Yang above, kinda fizzles out past the first two move sections.
That's unfortunately kind of my overall opinion on Goodra, guys, a very strong and fun base, but nothing new is really done with it outside of the specials and tilts. I really wanted to give this an extremely positive comment, especially after reading the specials, but as it stands, I think Goodra's just kind of alright. So you could say that I think that Goodra is decently good...ra.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"](Goo)dra
A JOE and DM joint? Two great tastes that taste great together! Haven't had one since Toxicroak, have we? Perhaps we should have more...
Goodra's Up Special was, I felt, a very odd animation, perhaps consistant with how it might work in the game itself but quite odd to imagine. I point this out before anything else because I felt some of the other animations in this set were odd and while that is not a huge deal I still noticed it. I actually like Goodra's gooeyness and what it can do, though preventing sidestepping might be a bit too strong, and Sap Sipper/Hydration are pretty interesting, perhaps slightly anti-synergy but in a way that is doing it for choice. Draco Meteor coming from the top of the screen is a bit odd and the fact you don't mention how platforms would play into using this move seems like an uncharacteristic oversight.
However while I feel the Specials form a solid base, the moveset itself seems to play little with them and I did not get a very strong sense of playstyle or flow here, though there is just enough to please me. The Jab and F-Tilt in particular feel like quite nice moves to work into everything, though it's reappearance on the FAir is not welcome because it adds little to Goodra plays positively, down tilt is also fine. Dash Attack is a good move, but it honestly did not feel like it fit the set much, so it ended up just being a good move by itself without much to work with. The smashes overall are...okay, I liked Muddy Water but Outrage felt irrelevant and Power Whip was a good move, but Goodra has little to work with his sweetspot I feel and the unique properties of the move don't play well with the set. The aerials are also okay, though I am not a fan of the BAir (It seems to exist just to be there). The grab game I felt was this set's low point, as it only in general rehashes parts of the set that do not need to be rehashed again, it doesn't particularly flow into the set, it just sorta...exists.
But on the plus side, the concepts are good, the Specials are largely fairly good and moves like Jab, F-Tilt, D-Tilt and D-Smash and such help elavate the set to being better than average, but there was a lot more to do with the Goo.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]MEMEDRA
This one was better than I expected, and I actually like what it’s doing a lot when it’s playing with the goops with the first 3 specials, dash attack, usmash, dsmash, and fthrow. I think that with the two different types of goop that the moves that combine goop (dsmash, fthrow) should’ve probably had some sort of effect by directly combining them. The goop could also use more elaboration in places, as for some reason the moveset regularly skimps on numbers despite being a JOE/DM joint.
I like the melee game in the jab and ftilt, and could’ve seen the moveset go places, but there’s too many moves that are unsatisfactory in relevance to me to say that I like it, especially when one of them (Draco Meteor) is a special. The I will say that this set (quite literally) is oozing with characterization even when it’s not flowing, and moves like the dair and grab-game are well thought out animations if nothing else. Still, I will say that Whiscash accomplished most of what this set does better (Particularly with combining goop types) with a similar mission statement and style, and we all know that I’m far from Whiscash’s biggest fan.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Polygon Man
I applaud you for trying to jump in and try to make a boss set so quickly in your career. That said, you clearly don't know what exactly bosses, especially 1v1 bosses should be balanced like. There's a move in this set that can deal 200%-600% and a move that can create a hitbox that covers most of the stage and stuns for multiple seconds. He doesn't really need that much else, but on top of that he has reasonably competent minions as a distraction(with ridiculous amounts of health), other attacks that, while not quite as powerful, are still insanely strong and give him a necessary variety of ways to kill the opponent in seconds, and based on how characters in Brawl are, he's just invincible while he's in the background. Is he? Well you never clarify, the whole set is ridiculously underdetailed and honestly even after reading it I have no idea how Polygon Man works. He very clearly plays differently from a normal character when he abides by stamina and goes into the background, so I'd like a little more detail on if he's resistant to hitstun/can be grabbed/is he possible to damage while in the background/etc.
As an additional thing, while I'm aware he actually does the polygon duplicates thing in PSABR, but translating their movesets directly would probably end in some form of disaster(hell for all we know, they port all the PSABR mechanics with their attacks, again a severe case of underdetail). Moreso than that though, I do vaguely remember seeing this boss fight before, and having him turn into random stage hazards from the game is completely ridiculous. I guess he's supposed to represent playstation on a whole, but it's still incredibly jarring for him to turn into Patapon especially. For what's supposed to be a super powerful boss that's rather undignified. I'd recommend looking at Armored Ventus Nightmare or even Nicholas1024's Master Hand as a reference point if you ever want to make a set like this again.
Edit: apparently he actually does turn into Patapons in his boss fight what the hell[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]METAL GEAR RAY
When you asked how much stamina to give a boss, I assumed you were talking about a 3v1 boss. It’s very difficult to balance a giant character for 1v1, and this moveset’s balance and the character in general seems to be more geared towards a 3v1 fight anyway, especially when he can summon the PSABR cast as minions on a whim. I don’t know why you decided to give him a fsmash that does 200-600% or the ability to stay in the background forever as invulnerable, and he has several stuns that last for a “few seconds”. As FA mentioned in his comment, the detail is heavily lacking in this moveset, and a lot of these are things you only gloss over.
He turns into hazards in his boss fight and does summon the PSABR cast, but they’re polygon form in the game. No such luck here, unless you just expect us to assume they’re the same as the game without us playing PSABR. While not everybody has played PSABR, most people do in fact know what Metal Gear Ray is, and that’s extremely jarring to us. I also don’t know how you couldn’t do anything interesting when this guy can turn into just about literally anything or summon anyone.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Pompy
I won't deny this is a big improvement for you Bionichute, the Specials actually feel very flowing and, while they ultimately just amount to bouncing around the fish, they do it in fairly fun and unique ways that make the set stand out from your previous efforts. Unfortunately, I don't feel this standard of quality is kept once you get past the Specials, there are a few decent effects where you make it have a little more substance than hitting the fish in X direction, but that's really about it. It's kind of shallow as an approach, I think a lot more could be done with the fish than just that. Particularly, the grab game where he gets a great deal more of potential control over the fish, is extremely generic and some throws(the throw where he slams into the foe and stuns them in particular) are not even aware he's carrying a fish some of the time. It's not a bad set, in all honesty I wanted to like it, but really there's more to playstyle than just launching something in a particular direction. That said, kudos to you for figuring out flow, which this set actually does have.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]FISH SNOWMAD
Pompy is your first and currently still only moveset that has a semblance of flow. If you have to do redundant things like this to flow, keep doing it, because this moveset was aware of the playstyle it was going for, unlike Armored Toad. Slapping around fish is a decent idea as a basis for this rather difficult character, although I would’ve still liked to see him sliding around (His main boss attack) play a bigger role in the moveset somehow. Yes, slapping around a fish does unfortunately get redundant, and could be covered by a handful of moves rather than slapping it in every possible direction and angle (Often multiple times) over this many inputs. The grab-game has nothing to do with anything and was already covered fine by the jab, and is without a doubt the worst part of the set.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Pompy
Pompy is a fairly shallow moveset, and struggles with the fact that its central gimmick seems tacked on to every move. Each move is structured in nearly the same way: here's how this move works, here's how this move interacts with a fish. I would have preferred if the fish took more organic knockback from Pompy's attacks rather than being affected differently for each attack, and that each move had a bit more thought put out into how Pompy can have some more depth to him besides just fish slapping. Overall though, this is one of your better sets, BIonichute. The core idea isn't bad at all, it just feels a bit flat.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Bat the Fish the moveset
Pompey has one central theme that it hits again, again and again: Take a fish and bounce it around. For the standards and smashes this was good, but it did start to wear out it's welcome around the aerials and the grab game was not very good at all. Part of why it works in the standards and smashes is the fact they tend to do different things to the fish, so they manage to feel fresh enough, though the moves themselves tend to feel like they don't work amazingly together, perhaps if we had any idea what they were working for outside the fish it'd help. I'm pretty sure he wants the opponent either quite close or qutie far, but little attention is paid to getting foes in one way or another or how, say, he deals with midranges and so on.
The grab game in particular drags this sets down: None of the throws really seem to do anything aside from throw a foe in a direction and any potential cool stuff with the fish on the throw is lost to just throwing it like on the specials. I do also wonder if, even with them being his minions, he should have been able to eat the fish. It also may have been interesting of his penguins became minions or perhaps done some with the fact they seem to be projectiles that last quite a while, perhaps even just some stuff like a Mario cape effect? I dunno, it feels like some more penguin stuff could have been done.
Still, though, I think Pompey had enough between batting the fish around and reading between the lines for some flow to become a set above average and is probably your best Bionichute. While it is heavily brought down by redundancy and bad aerials/grab game, it certainly represents a step up.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Skowl Review
I felt that honestly, given that this is the first set you've posted in a long time Kupa and my initial commentary about balance came across as very annoying(I know what it's like to have your set attacked for balance and literally nothing else, and frankly I let things that are overpowered slide all the time). Let me make it clear that, despite my ranking of the set, it doesn't mean I think you didn't contribute to the movement, it doesn't mean I think you're incompetent as a moveset maker, and it doesn't mean I think Skowl was a rush job, on the contrary I can see the effort put in and I respect it.
So why am I going out of my way to make a full review? Well the set makes a few mistakes that are entirely signs that you've been out of the community for a long time. You weren't really involved in set discussions that occured during MYM13 barring a couple, and through MYM14 and a good chunk of 15 you were absent. A lot of sets in MYMX-12 that were popular at the time look worse now, for reasons we didn't give much heed too at the time, but it has become increasingly clear due to the comments of certain MYMers are actually issues in regards to playability. Skowl demonstrates a very clear knowledge of playstyle, hell it has a decent idea of depth too, but the issues of balance and implementation, which have become much more refined in recent contests, are where it falls apart.
So let's go over the set move by move, since I think trying to give an overview won't really help explain the issues all that well, and there are a bunch of positives I want to go over so you don't think you entirely screwed up here. Starting on the Neutral Special, the egg is actually a pretty great concept. The idea of an easily moveable construct which when destroyed becomes a minion based on it's lifespan IS exciting. Admittedly, the timing on the hatching is a little wonky, but Skowl actually does have a reasonable number of ways to defend the eggs regardless of their low stamina. My problem is that the end result doesn't really feel rewarding enough. The first 2 minions are just slightly more advanced projectiles, which honestly are hardly much of a reward for preserving them for 3-6 seconds, especially in the case of the latter one as at least with Wind Hitboxes the way the Hatchlings attack is a bit unconventional. The final minion actually is somewhat compelling because it flows into Skowl's aerial based gameplan, but after keeping a 20 HP egg alive for 9 seconds I would hope for something that feels a bit more satisfyingly powerful than that. I'll give you though, the minions Skowl has in the fight aren't exactly amazing fodder, so I can see why they are as weak/bland as they are.
Side Special is largely a decent move on it's own, actually don't feel it is worth complaining about outside the context of the Smashes. Down Special is where we run into more issues, albeit I will say that in concept, I don't think the move is that bad. It's a big projectile that can be used to store up Skowl's minions. The problem with the move really just comes down to the fact that it is a grab. Projectile grabs are damn scary for gimping, and that aside this is an object which can fairly easily grab the same foe over and over again and is also potentially colossal in size, honestly I'd be more afraid of this move than the Forward Smash. 50 HP will feel like a lot more on an object that's moving, controllable, and attaches itself to you on contact. Again, I like using it to store up minions, as an incubator of sorts(too cold to be a real incubator, but this is a tribe that literally has snow in their name), it's just a very overwhelming gimping tool when it can easily become colossal and grabs on contact.
Up Special isn't terribly imbalanced, though one thing I will say is it doesn't seem terribly worth it to drop the opponent in a cluster of minions when the hitbox on the move upon landing is as strong as it is. Occasionally I suppose it may be worth it to drop them a huge mess of minions(which won't happen that often because he won't be reliably getting that many given the low stamina on the eggs) or in the most hellish possible location in your wind hitboxes, but it's just kind of bizarre that you mention the option on foes when the move is as powerful as it is. A big hit like that is usually more worth your time than set ups. The actual playstyle function of the move, while I suppose it's a bit annoying to criticize an Up Special, seems to be as a grab to move around eggs/minions, and an egg breaker. That'd be fine except A. we already have an egg breaking move on Jab that is more specialized to that purpose anyway B. there are several moves for carrying eggs/minions in the set. I'll get to that on Dash Attack in particular.
Now with Jab, again, actually good move as an egg breaker, and thankfully the pitfall is only on the sweetspot of the move. However, this is a much faster move than DK's Side B from what I can tell, or at least potentially faster. A single stunning move isn't so bad either, but the problem is when FTilt comes in. FTilt is another stun move, with a secondary application on minions(and for some reason eggs, though that may have just been a writing mistake based on our earlier discussion). The application of stopping minions in their tracks at least is somewhat useful in this set, though with how many ways he has to grab minions in the middle of what they're doing he may as well just do that. Forward Tilt stuns for 1.5 seconds at maximum, only terribly relevant if Skowl is overlapping the foe, but the minimum is a respectable but not overpowered 0.5 seconds... that happens a full battlefield platform away. A battlefield platform has more range than Dedede's FTilt, so using this as a melee move is going to stun the foe for a full second(AKA upper bound of Falcon Punch/lower bound of Warlock Punch duration). Skowl doesn't have a follow up to this with a super powerful Smash, but the fact is these two stuns can be used together, to get the charge/sweetspotting on the other, keeping the foe in a loop of stuns, and the scary part is it doesn't even end there when you consider that Skowl also has the Down Smash tornado, which while not a true stun and it gives the foe an immunity period, it gets fairly close in combination with Down Tilt and even without it the foe is going to have trouble hitting Skowl during that. Nevermind the Down Special being a massive mobile grab hitbox that can snare a foe in the midst of all this, in case there was a chance someone out there was having fun.
Now to talk about the problem I had with Up Special, Dash Attack is another grab that repositions eggs/minions/foes. Again, one of those is fine, though putting yet another grab hitbox on Jab is making the set feel like there's going to be way too many grab escapes involved when fighting it(no Smash Brothers set has nearly that much to escape from, at most having one stun in their set, two that can't play off each other well in Zamus). The problem is though, this set has four, once you factor in the Neutral Aerial and the Grab. Skowl does not need that many ways to place an egg/foe, especially when he already has a fair share of ways to control them with the snowballs/wind hitboxes, if anything a grab to place minions in different locations may not be necessary in the set. The set has four, which is way too much redundancy and really kills a lot of Skowl's versatility. At the very least, you did make each grab have it's strengths and weaknesses, but honestly the set would have been better off playing off the strengths and weaknesses of one version rather than trying to cover absolutely every possible base in terms of "grabbing things and moving them around".
Down Tilt is a way to make the massive wind hitboxes on Smashes into actual flinching hitboxes, and the problem with that is that you put in a wind hitbox that takes a full second to DI out of in the set, nevermind that it just prevents the foe from acting against projectiles and minions flying at them in the stream, such as the almighty snowball, even in the case of lesser ones like the Forward Smash. Stacking this many ways to make wind hitboxes powerful would've actually been cool with just the Side Special alone, as then it'd just be fun ways to capitalize off the big wind you can briefly make in that move. With the Smashes though, it's just far too overwhelming to deal with. Up Tilt isn't actually bad from a playstyle standpoint and doesn't feel horribly wrong... but it is awkward that it's power is based on how fast of a faller the opponent is. Might have been better to make the move just deal set extra damage if the foe is fastfalling, to make it less character specific. It's a nitpick though, nothing criminally wrong with that move, but it doesn't leave a very positive impression because of said nitpick.
The Smashes are a fairly easy point to bring up against the set, but on some level I see where you were thinking with regards to balancing them. The pushing hitbox is not that terribly strong, twice Dedede's inhale is not all that much power and that's with charge. The problem is of course, when said stream is pushing along dirt, which suddenly makes it a lot harder to resist that push, and Skowl can then throw in eggs which the foe has so much more trouble dodging because of DIing out of the dirt. More terrifying, that stream is pushing the snowball to the foe while they're given so few options to avoid it, and he can stack multiple of the FSmash windstream together AND with Side Special, which suddenly makes Side Special into a horrific gimping tool when he can place these in the air. And unlike the Side B, where you have to kind of commit to it which balances it, this is just something that sticks around for the stage for quite a long time. The Down Smash isn't so much a gimping tool as another stun, and while it's not a true stun it may as well be when you need to DI out to avoid it... and DI is the only way to avoid the Down Tilt from earlier. Up Smash IMO isn't anything criminal, the main problem it has is that it's basically just the same move as Forward Smash but rotated upwards, mostly just there for consistency with the other Smashes being wind hitboxes. Though perhaps you should've done something different on FSmash instead, given how scary it is for gimping.
Just as an aside on Down Smash, you actually did realize how scary due to it's size and power and gave the foe 3 second immunity to it after they escape. I can respect that. The problem is of course that the opponent passing over a whirlwind and randomly being immune to it during the three second grace period feels very awkward. An immunity period WOULD be useful on something like the snowball at least, and on the DSmash it does at least balance the move.
Already went over my problem with Nair in that it's very similar to several other moves in the set. It feels like the most intuitive of the lot and is probably the one I would pick to keep, but regardless the problem remains. By contrast, while FAir and BAir don't feel as conceptually inspired as say, Neutral or Down Special, what they do have going for them is that there's no fundamental problem with them like with most other moves in the set, and I guess it is fitting that a set for an owl has most of it's more enjoyable moves on the aerials. Uair is straight up filler, though again that's not what I'm here to talk about in the comment, filler is rarely a huge problem in your sets and it certainly isn't here. Dair is legitimately scary though, when Skowl is already so strong a gimper having something that can powerfully force foes down in a wind steam that is also a projectile(albeit one not affected by wind, for better or worse), and it aside from that just feels like another spacer, which a character with 4 grabs that move the opponent, several wind hitboxes, and a few decent spacers otherwise doesn't terribly need.
Grab I've discussed to death the problems with, and FThrow, while I get the utility here(not damaging minions) feels like a very weak throw on foes, but dealing no damage and requiring charge. BThrow suffers a bit though from just being another spacer in a moveset with too many of them to begin with, though to a degree it is forgivable when there's not that much a bird can really do to throw someone. While DThrow is kind of interesting actually as a means of suspending foes in the air, it's yet another move that gets obsoleted by an earlier move in the set, in this case the much more powerful Up Smash, and due to utilizing fall speed it has very poor synergy with UTilt. Aside from that, there's a pretty huge writing error here with parts of the Back Throw getting spliced in, not anything that effects the set's quality but it does get confusing, and frankly it could use some kind of damaging hitbox on the throw. UThrow is fine, definently overpowered on brain dead monkeys(or Level 1 CPUs) but aside from that I don't have much in the way of issues with the move, though really he doesn't need yet another way to push them into the air when he has the Up Smash for a stronger option and the DThrow and Up Tilt for more interesting options.
Having finished all that, the set's flaws really come down to a couple things that we've figured out in more recent times that in all honesty you probably weren't aware of, the fact that having multiple stuns is really unpleasant because they can easily stack on each other, and just that redundancy to the degree the set has, in general, prevents a set from really functioning as well as a playground as it wants too. It's not a set that isn't aware of playstyle, it just is rather broken in some regards and in other simply makes things too easy to really warrant a lot of the more interesting things it can do. I honestly was a bit too harsh on the set when it came out with my ranking of it and am moving it up a bit, honestly I just really liked the concepts you told me about a while back and was disappointed when it didn't deliver, but for all it's worth, it does show that you're a very competent set maker in spite of it's weaknesses. I look forward to seeing what you make from here, and it's good to have you back.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]TRUE SNOWMAD LEADER
FA’s Skowl review is very good for picking apart the balance of the moveset. I saw a lot of the problems when I previewed it, and I apologize for not talking about them more, but I didn’t think you would care all that much at the time and I didn’t want to just tell you to outright get rid of the smashes. I do hope your understanding of the Smash Bros engine will continue to improve and you can grace us with more of your brilliant ideas.
Ignoring the balance entirely, the eggs are a neat concept, and bouncing them up high to keep their frail stamina away from the foe is an intriguing way to overcome their shortcomings. I like moving them around with wind hitboxes, and the snowball is also a fairly cool concept, especially when used on minions. The issue is more that the vast majority of the moveset is all about spacing the foe and minions when you already have several ways to do that – direct filler is rare, but the redundancy gets to a point it basically becomes filler. Most of the moveset is wind or grab hitboxes to pick up and drag things somewhere else. I also think that the moveset might’ve been better if it more closely followed the boss fight, as several of his attacks in the boss are more minor here in favor of original material he doesn’t actually do.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Skowl
Skowl is a moveset from another time period, in a way. There's plenty of playstyle and flow here, that's never been your problem Kupa. It's lacking in balance and playability though. You don't need me to break down every bad point in this set, Arrow's already done that for you. I'm really concerned about how easy it is for Skowl to simply gimp opponents with combinations of the Forward Smash and Side Special, not to mention the Down Special. There's also a plethora of stun in the moveset, an easy trap to fall into that even I've occasionally made the mistake of doing. It creates a moveset that isn't nearly as fun to play against as it is to play as, and a moveset that isn't interesting to fight ultimately isn't interesting to play as either. It becomes boring and monotonous. Surprisingly, I don't hate this set overall, I just feel that it's broken but has good core ideas besides of minion manipulation.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Fowl
This comment might be a bit shorter or more redundant than expected since ForwardArrow wrote a full-on REVIEW of Skowl and we already had a fairly long Skype discussion, but I would like to add that I do enjoy you making a set Kupa and hope to see more from ya, even if I did not enjoy Skowl. As mentioned, the smashes are all horrifically strong, with the F-Smash a terrifying gimping tool that can easily cover entire stages, double D3's Inhale might not be absurdly strong but it is still enough to essentially make ground combat impossible as you get blown away if you even attempt to stop moving and utterly destroy many recoveries, Down Smash doesn't add much and is very potent as a psuedo-stun, especially if you add in Down Tilt dust, not to mention throwing F-Tilt stunners into it, Up Smash is frightening because it can easily go up or over the ceiling on many stages, or Skowl can use it to either infinite stall or even stall + projectile like a mofo for a looooong time since he can use his Smashes in the air. On the flipside, the minions are incredibly UP, and from a standpoint of non-balance the amount of effort put into the minions leads into something very underwhelming given the minions are not that great. Even aside from balancing it, it is an extreme dissapointment when you put a lot of effort and get very little in return, and the eggs DO require a good deal of effort (Even Up Special shenanigans are a fair deal of it compared to your reward). I will say that the idea of minions who you have to keep alive before they turn into actual minions and can use as a lingering projectile is relatively interesting, but I am a guy big on execution and it fails badly in that regard.
Down Specials adds to the horrific power of the smashes with a projectile grab that can just utterly make the foe helpless as they get blown off stage: It requires some damage, since grab difficulty, but not that much and reminds me all too much of Willy Wonka's horrible ballooning throw. Plus, what use does it have in the playstyle that is good? Storing minions and stuff is good, but that is about it, and it could have been done in a better way. F-Tilt + Jab is pretty horrific as both are fairly fast, one has decent range (1/3rd of Battlefield essentially) for a non-true projectile, F-Tilt leads into your Jab at anything resembling close range (IE in hammer range), this combo does a good deal of damage and the foe is pitfalled at the end for more follow-ups, or even just using the time to set up your extremely powerful wind/Down Tilt dust/etc. More to the point, these moves simply do not add anything to Skowl's playstyle aside from a very boring "the foe cannot move, set up" kind of deal, which is probably one of the worst ways to acquire setup time, as it is much more fun and interesting for both you and the opponent to have to actually play around for you to setup. The Up Tilt is fine, at least. Another problem is encountered on the Dash Attack, NAir and the like, which is that combined with the wind hitboxes, a LOT of this moveset is really just pushing your stuff around, except that none of it is really so different in effect, even if it may be different in starting point, that any of it really matters, especially because the rewards tend to be rather lame. Far too much of this moveset is dedicated to repositioning and far too little is dedicated to actually using the repositioning, so it gives this "illusion" of depth, where the actual gameplay is quite shallow with far less options than you'd think because many of your options just lead to the exact same thing with little to differentiate the various moves. The fact this moveset has so many grab hitboxes is a similiar deal: Positioning with wind, by grabbing your eggs/whatnot and grabbing the foe takes up almost the entire moveset...meaning you have very little to actually do once anything is positioned and that many of your moves just don't matter because they are redundant.
Forward Aerial and Back Aerial are probably the most enjoyable parts of the moveset, if anything Forward Aerial's idea could have better been used as a special, as relatively basic but fun playstyle relevant moves that are balanced, fit the character and so on. Down Aerial is pretty strong as a gimper and stuff, but aside from that it doesn't feel like it works into the moveset, it can't even be used with the main repositioning theme (Not that that'd help) and aside from that feels like I guess spacing? It just doesn't do much with the moveset. The grab game is generally pretty bad, the Forward Throw being a no damage move kinda sucks (And it feels very weird he has so few moves that do no damage or 1-3% damage, kinda like Wonka again), the minion making move is actively anti-synergy with his playstyle and he will probably never enough minions out to use it well anyway and so on, plus an amusing accidental text splice.
Overall, Skowl had some concepts that could have gone far, though I will admit that few...ahem...blew me away, but it is largely undone by extremely poor execution on most fronts, including very large redundancy that ends up creating a very shallow playstyle. Still, this could have been a lot worse, and you might just need some time to get acclimated to MYM again, or catch up on execution developements. If nothing else, I feel glad that you made this moveset, even if I disliked it.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Fugu
Fugu's good aspect is how he takes advantage of his size shifting, having several moves that get some fairly interesting benefits from being large, while on top of that he has the bubbles as incentive to not be constantly large, as he can make them and fill them with water or urchins for various benefits, or get inside one alongside a foe for some potentially impressive damage racking. It does create a decent balance between both wanting to be huge and wanting bubbles, but to a degree I think maybe he benefits too much from being huge, given how ridiculous his attack power becomes at max size. I have my doubts the benefits that bubbles can provide really match the raw power of the max sized Down Smash. It's ultimately balance nitpicking, but I do wish the set had a little bit stronger of a balance between the two aspects. Aside from that, some moves feel like they just generically are useful because he can use them while huge, which makes the flow a bit less than it could be. That said I can hardly blame you when it's a set for a pufferfish that has to function on land, and it's still pretty interesting.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Fugu
This is one of those characters where you have to be credited for taking on such an imposing, challenging design and trying to successfully make a moveset for. While the way you manage to convey the character to Smash is impressive, it's also largely underpowered; his rolling nature is going to be completely uncontrollable in a fast paced game of Smash where opponents will be knocking him about and sending him facing which-way. You try to mitigate this overall, but the fact that he can't turn without moving, or move without turning is a serious weakness. Consider that in order to roll to get in front of an opponent, he may have to end up facing the opposite way. Not a good situation to be in. You've got some decent mechanics with the bubble interactions, but pulling them off in a match is a luxury Fugu doesn't really have.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Fatty Puffer
Ah, so this is what happens when you strike Fatty Puffer with the Stand arrow...
Fugu is the first of two MasterWarlord sets for the Tropical Freeze movement. Fugu's size changing and bubbles provide a nice base for the moveset and the oddness of rolling around to redirect where your hitbox comes from is good enough and it tends to be worked on in nice, simple but fairly deep and effective ways. I did enjoy the use of Fugu's melee game here, a more basic but nonetheless effective approach overall, and the bubbles are not overused which is a plus, especially considering how Fugu is a pretty difficult character to create. One problem I had with them that I noticed largely upon reading it all again at once, instead of over multiple previews, is that it does not feel like a true playstyle necessarily shines through with them, as at times it feels as though there are moves that are good in a vacuum but not necessarily good overall, I feel Up Smash might be a good example of this, as I actually quite like the move and it certainly has some uses, but I am not sure how it necessarily plays well into Fugu's overall game. This is probably odd to bring up, but to me the playstyle summary did not help this: While it accurately explained uses of moves, it did not feel like it helped give me an understanding of how Fugu plays overall, instead being more of, as you said, a strategy guide, except in this case it was more explaining things you could do with Fugu and not how he plays overall. The playstyle section did not actively hurt this set, but I felt like it tied into my previous point and thus I felt I should bring it up. One move I did like that felt like it actively worked into what Fugu did was the Forward Smash, which is a very fun variation on Jigglypuff's rollout and plays very nicely with Fugu's momentum abilities and setup.
In terms of balance, Fugu seems fairly balanced, though I will say that I am slightly iffy on the strength of his puffed upness, buuuuut it isn't something that seems blatantly brokeo or anything, especially since Fugu's moves are not too absurd, so it limits the abuse a lot: I could see Fugu getting way too strong if he got some really crazy stuff, but keeping him grounded (seabound?) keeps him much more balanced and is a definite plus. One thing I do wish I had seen, however, was some more moves that took advantage of being small: There are a lot of moves in the set that take advantage of getting larger, but very few that take advantage of not being large and thus give you more reason not to be large, mostly the dash attack. It makes it feel like there isn't much of a reason not to just blow yourself up in general unless the foe has some super killer combo they can pull on you or something. And to bring up specific moves again, in retrospect the Down Aerial feels very filler-y without actually aiding what Fugu can do, something I wish I could have pointed out...just kinda feels there.
Still, Fugu is a pretty good set overall, with enough playstyle and flow combined with some fairly good concepts and fairly good balance to make it a fairly good set, but it feels like it could have definitely had a stronger, tighter style of play, perhaps some moves mixed around and maybe slightly tighten up the use of the concepts more without going crazy, stuff needed to make it truly great...but I definitely wouldn't mind RVing this set, so that tells ya it is pretty quality.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Bashmaster
This is the Tropical Freeze boss set everyone was looking forward too, and I believe it honestly does deliver. The hammer charge was a pretty cool reference to Donkey Kong's own signature move while being made far more logical in terms of animation and far deeper in terms of playstyle implication, I'm kind of shocked at how much mileage you get out of that small Freezie effect at max charge. There's also the use of the ice blocks, which are used in some fairly unique ways, from crushing towers of them into waves that coat the stage in ice or riding them as an approach to make better use of simple but still exciting inputs like Fair and Down Smash.
The set honestly feels a lot more in smash than your usual too, with several moves like Jab and the Forward Throw being fully self-aware of their relative simplicity but still having plenty of useful implications in the playstyle. I can't say all of the set's like this, there are a couple inputs(the ones that stick out to me are the upwards based ground ones) that feel a bit shallow in their use and just acknowledge the existence of the hammer charge rather than trying to go in an interesting direction with it, though to a degree I can't fault you too much for that when there's only so much you can do with a generic buff like that before it gets too gimmicky.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Bashmaster
Overall, I do like Bashmaster. It's a set that takes a simple central core mechanic and expands on it without feeling too tacky and mostly making sense in how it expands off of it. It still keeps the core concept of a Smash heavyweight antagonist at the fore-front, using weak fast moves in conjunction with high-risk, high-reward moves. The Neutral Special is a very interesting move to add in, a charge-up to all of his hammer attacks that feels unique and surprisingly natural. Combined with the ice block mechanics, it's a set that has plenty of depth to play around with without going off the deep end in any area and stays very playable and viable, without overspecializing his moves. For that reason, I can wholeheartedly say I enjoyed this set.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Coca Cola Polar Bear
And the second Warlord set for this movement, Bashmaster, is a pretty appropriate for him, a nice big fat bear with a spiked hammer to crush all who oppose him. And is introduced eating.
Right off the bat, the Down Special shows growth from Koala Kong, removing some of the issues that set had by making them more compact, more able to be destroyed and overall less overpowered. In turn, this opens up more space to actually do interesting things with it, and the ice blocks become a nice centerpiece of the set, though I am also quite fond of the Neutral Special, it's a fun take on the Donkey Punch and honestly I am surprised that we have not had more movesets where a higher charge on a Donkey Kong Punch does stuff with the moveset. I do slightly worry if him losing it all on hit is a bit not balanced right, but it didn't feel right to have him only lose a % in this case and I felt it ended up balanced enough. One thing I did dislike and continue to dislike is the Up Special homing when used in the air: It makes recovery this very awkward thing where you can only use your Up Special if they are not trying to actually stop you from getting back to the stage, because otherwise you will just target them off stage (and thus fall to your death unless they are close enough for you to cancel and DI) or target them on the ledge and thus have to cancel or be edgehogged. It's especially awkward because the grounded version does not do this, when you would probably prefer it from the ground and not in the air, and because it honestly doesn't add anything gameplay-wise but instead actively subtracts from it. I can understand wanting the aesthetic, since he homes in during the boss fight, but I feel that in this case it hurt the gameplay some.
The standards are all nice things, generally simple but effective moves and I feel it was correct to keep Bashmaster from overstepping too much in some cases, but one thing I did notice some upon reading the entire set is that perhaps the melee games, here and in the aerials, could have worked a bit better into an overall gameplan, as right now they feel a bit like good melee moves but not necessarily ones that work too much together, though ultimately there is enough there and enough little interactions and bonuses that it all comes together to be actively pleasing. I particularly like the differences that can be done with Forward Tilt and Down Tilt and how Down Tilt works with the playstyle, and to go into the aerials for a moment I also enjoy the Forward Aerial, Neutral Aerial (Lots of Mach Tornado-esque aerials lately) and I found the Down Aerial both fairly good and with an amusing and appropriate animation. While minor, the Jab not being a hammer move was a good idea.
I did not talk about the Smashes there because I feel they were enough of a highlight on the set to talk about on their own. Up Smash is pretty cool, I feel it's melee uses are quite nice and the way the freezie works more if you can keep them in there longer is interesting, especially when you consider this would mean it works a bit better in that regard at lower %s, while it also uses the Neutral Special in inventive ways like bypassing starting lag and being able to cancel into it, which helps keep the Neutral Special from being too one note. Likewise, the Down Smash is a fine move on it's own with proper superarmor to work into the Neutral Special and utilizes the ice in an interesting manner that is different for the set: I like how, if Bashmaster sets up, he is able to use that setup to do stuff like reduce lag on the Down Smash and Up Smash and the like. Forward Smash feels like the weakest smash to me, though I still find it nice and I do like it's interactions with the ice blocks. It feels the weakest outside of it's interaction though.
The grab game is probably the weakest part of the set overall: I'm actually quite fond of the Up Throw, it's more cool use of the hammer and what it can do, and I also thought the Back Throw was both a good move and helped keep Bashmaster viable. The Skiing Down Throw feels a bit odd to imagine and the effect is only okay, though it isn't overall a negative. The Forward Throw is filler, but it's not especially bad filler, the only problem is just that it probably doesn't KO much faster than the Up Throw and the Back Throw also KOs at a decent percentage, so thinking about it it was kind of redundant: Maybe a more setup-y throw would have been better?
But either way, Bashmaster was probably my favorite Tropical Freeze set and is a valuable entry into MYM15. It's solid use of nice concepts which are explored in fun ways without ever going overboard and thus rendering itself redundant or too reliant on his setup when the character should be fairly melee based and it flows pretty nicely with it's concepts. Certainly it could improve, but as it is it is a very good thing to put into your hallowed hall of movesets. Plus, it got Ba-boom in![/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Lord Fredrik
As a start, I rather enjoy the joke-y of this set, given how lacking in dignity and goofy he feels during his boss fight. It doesn't so much show he's outright incompetent, just very reliant on the one all powerful tool he's been given in the horn to be a serious threat. As for the actual set, it's a bit of a change of pace to see Waddle Dee-style minions as a focus, as usually if someone tries to make minions based on a smash character's, they pick Olimar's. They're not amazingly interesting by themselves, though the way they're launched as a projectile is at least decent. The key thing is the brilliant grab game, which brings back K. Rool's to a degree, but while having less elements to work with focuses more on what elements it has to create very interesting throws, even just in their uses on the foe. I particularly love the Forward Throw, in how open ended it is for projectile comboing, though all 4 throws are excellent in their own ways. The Smashes play off what's been established earlier in the set rather nicely too, mostly just being a bunch of fun little interactions, but it does give plenty of additional depth to Fredrik's existing tools.
I wish I could say the same of the standards and aerials. While they do get across Fred's goofy characterization nicely, their implications on the minions are a bit more blunt and uninteresting. There's nothing really outright bad here, but it pretty much amounts to filler barring a couple corner cases, like Dash Attack/Nair/Up Tilt, and even those are just decent, not nearly as good as the rest of the set. It's hardly a deal breaker though, the set is quite fun regardless of that and you avoided actively hurting the set's high points, which can frequently happen during filler segments of a set.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]DIET K. ROOL
Fredrik’s Specials are decent, but they’re most just specials to set the context for the rest of the set rather than much of anything amazing in of themselves. The moveset really hits its stride during the grab-game, and while it doesn’t reach those levels of greatness again it stays at a fairly good quality throughout. It is good that you actually took the time to improve this moveset, as while the concepts aren’t the grandest it’s still a pretty fun set most of the way through that doesn’t disappoint. While the moveset got more redundant with the penguins in the original version, the moveset takes a break from it in the standards to play some with the fsmash pillars, which is nice.
Fredrik has the potential to do more with his ridiculous powerset, but he had potential to do more in the actual boss fight as well. Having this guy do much of anything more would largely be giving this fat fart too much credit. I’m a fan of the moveset’s characterization, as it really does make him out to be a horrible ruler. He’s fairly incompetent physically throughout the set and plays somewhat cowardly, and despite it horribly abuses his penguin minions.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Lord Fredrik
I'm not usually a big fan of your sets Smady, but Fredrik is a set that I actually reasonably enjoyed. The key mechanic of firing projectiles and sucking them back up along with the opponent is implemented here, like it was in King K Rool, and I have to say that I like this implementation better. Creating a gauntlet of penguins to dodge as the opponent recovers or firing projectiles at them after shooting them out is interesting and unique, to say the least. There are a few moments of awkward writing through the set and moves that feel a bit off to me, and there's a bit too many interactions for my taste, like in the Down Smash for example, which introduces new mechanics pretty late into the set, like the jagged ice puddles. The forward tilt throwing ice pillars too felt like a bit too much. Overall though, he's a fine moveset with fun projectile manipulation that I don't regret reading.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Superior SSB4 Candidate
And for the end of Tropical Freeze, we have the big (and we do mean big!) bad leader of the Snomads, Lord Fredrik!
Fred's specials are perhaps not the most blow-you-away specials around, but I feel that they set up a pretty strong base for the rest of the set to work off of. The idea of minions and what they come in being used as projectiles is much more better handled here than in Skowl, as is wind with the Down Special and later Jab. The Ice Dragons are pretty nice, maybe some number fixing to do there but it'd be hard to figure out exactly what and it's minor, and the Up Special is okay. I felt the biggest problems with the set came in the aerials and standards, though the addition of moves like Forward Tilt helped alleviate it, but I still don't like the Up Aerial much, the addition of knockback choosing helps add some flow but without a melee game that helps support it like in some other sets it doesn't add as much as it could. The rest of the aerials tend to be okay moves, but they do not often work into what Fred is actually doing, with some exceptions: Forward Tilt is probably the biggest highlight of this game for it's fun interaction and Jab is pretty good, I'd say that Down Tilt works well into it too and Forward Aerial is a bit fine, but the Up Aerial as mentioned only has some base flow and I didn't find moves like the Up Aerial, Neutral Aerial and Down Aerial to play well with him THAT much, even if they were not necessarily bad individual moves...though I still do not understand how Fred is supposed to "stage spike" with the down aerial without dying.
But the coup de grace of goodness in the moveset comes from the grab game which feels similiar to K. Rool's but better. The pummel is not amazing to me, but is good enough, but I particularly like the Forward Throw here: Not only are the options that are presented all different and good enough to have reason to exist, but the Dancing Blade-esque choice on the move is a real stroke of goodness here, reminiscant of Pinsir's command throws in a way, and it + the grab game overall feels like the primary reason people will remember this set. Back Throw is also quite nice and I like the risk-reward this can have, plus it interacts well on foes, and Up Throw may be the most direct throw but the way it is direct plays into Fred's game well and is still pretty fun to see, so it's good. And the Down Throw once again is something similiar to Skowl but better, as it does not put the foe into new grab difficulty but just continues the one you have which they can already be button mashing out of, not to mention as a throw it isn't an imbalanced projectile grab. Definitely one of the stronger, if not strongest, grab games this contest.
The Smashes are overall pretty good here, the pillars are probably the best smash here and add a lot to the playstyle and the Down Smash is a good but not great kind of deal, where it fits well into the gameplan and adds to the set and makes it better but it isn't the centerpoint or anything, the addition of letting Fred get big with it was a small buff. The Up Smash is...okay, a good move but it doesn't seem to work into what Fred does outside of getting big for the pillars, some of the sound wave interactions are cool but it can be a bit awkward on the move and the strength of the icy explosion is perhaps a bit much. I'm also going to bring up a bit of an odd point here and say I felt the writing/presentation/something for this set felt a bit...off, obviously you don't like Fred and like K. Rool but this got to be a bit weird in writing, and it felt like you were trying too hard to make Fredrik silly and rather than adding to his characterization it felt more like it was put into situations where it just made things sort of awkward. This is also true because at times in the moveset Fredrik felt more imposing or menacing or whatnot, so it created this odd disconnect between the two styles, plus honestly from what I have seen and read Fredrik is not, or at least does not feel, as silly as he can in this moveset. It's a bit of an odd complaint, but it was definitely something I felt came up in the moveset.
But ultimately, Fred was still a good moveset that took a solid base and did some pretty nice stuff with it, even if there were some places where perhaps it could not have specifically improved individually but improved overall, and it was good to see you get a set out Smady...let's not wait 71 movesets before the next one, yes?[/collapse]
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[collapse="ChaosKiwi"]CHESTER BENNINGTON
Well I'm only a fan of the one Linkin Park song so I can't really say how true to character this set is. However, there's not much going on here. For one, you didn't list damage percentages for any moves, which is not exactly a good thing to do. Second, you only seem to have put any real effort into the specials, and the throws. Pro-tip, mirroring inputs, as you did for the smashes, standards and aerials, is not generally looked upon well. Each move should be different, in more ways than just the direction you're using it. That's really all there is to say here, I guess.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]ENDLESS MIRRORS
Chester Bennington, AKA the Linkin Park set, suffers from a lack of detail (Damage, what percentages moves KO at, lag) and greater purpose in the playstyle like most newcomer sets, and I can’t suggest you do too much more than read some other sets to get an idea of how to improve. The reason I’m commenting your set specifically over any of the other newcomer sets is because you have a big problem they don’t – you have mirrored the bthrow, the tilts, the smashes, and the aerials, leaving a moveset with very little depth and little versatility to respond to enemies due to how predictable it is. We try to put a lot of thought into individual moves in our movesetting, so seeing so many just mirrored just looks like laziness. Discounting the mirrored inputs, you are left with 14 out of 23 inputs, counting each mirrored input as just one.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Chester Bennington
Welcome to Make Your Move! I'm happy to provide some constructive criticism on your set. You picked a definite oddball of a character to put into this contest, but that's perfectly alright, there have been odder still this contest alone. There's definitely a lack of detail here... what does these projectiles he shoots look like, how much damage or knockback do they do? What's their range? These kinds of questions need to be answered to really judge a moveset.
I'd also recommend describing each tilt and smash individually instead of all as a group. Smash characters all have unique, different smash attacks, so Chester should too. Look at how different each of Snake's Smashes are foe example. One's a close range blast, another a projectile, and a third a trap! You've got a decent start to this character's playstyle by describing him as a defensive character using his long-range normals, but there needs to be more depth to each individual move to really make it in Make Your Move. Regardless, I'm excited to see what you make next.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ChaosKiwi"]CHOZO WARRIOR
Well your main issue is largely the same as the previous set, in that you neglected to include damage percentages for any of the moves. Your other main issue is the fact that most of your moves are fairly generic, and none of them get any descriptions that I can actually critique. Your throws are the worst of the worst offenders here. They're just throws in a certain direction. No flair. No enthusiasm!
So, seeing as these both seem to be you guys's first sets, I'll leave you some friendly advice (though you may want to seek the help of others as well, seeing as I'm still technically a newbie myself!): Description matters. Your moves need to all be something special, something that makes me think "Yeah, that's something that character would do." If you have a generic punch, or kick, or sword swing in there, that's fine, as long as it fits. If you just give the blandest possible descriptors of your moves or use the same attack but in different direction, then it's not a good idea. Go back, take more time with your sets, and show us all what you're really capable of.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Chozo Warrior
This set really suffers from a criminal case of underdetail. There's not enough information about damage, knockback, and follow-up opportunities and the like to really compare it to an actual moveset in smash brothers. I'd also recommend against cloning inputs, the Side Special is completely pointless when the Up Special can already do the exact same thing, and with less limits at that. There's a pattern here in him being able to counter projectiles, which is interesting, but not strong enough to base an entire moveset around... such a strategy is useless against a character like Meta Knight who has no projectiles. There's also a bit of laziness when we get to moves like the aerials and throws. A typical sex kick? Opponents are slammed into the ground? You can write more detail than this. Smash has interesting animations and follow-ups from throws, like Bowser's Down Throw or King Dedede's Down Throw, just as examples of both.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]COMBO MAN
Quick Man is a very simplistic and quick read, with little to offer in terms of playstyle as most of your earlier works. The moveset passively talks about the ability to combo once or twice, but it doesn’t say what it can or can’t combo into, just that it does. When it’s said in such a cliffnote sort of way, I have a hard time believing he works as much of a comboer, so you would probably need to talk about that more and tell me how it even combos. Aside from the “comboing” and momentum aspects of the set, there’s really nothing of substance here.
The writing style is probably the most memorable aspect of the set, as it is very witty, conversational, and filled with puns. It gets a bit awkward when it’s basically masking how little actual content some of the moves have, just but a sentence in some moves. Making a quick quip can be a supplement to a move, but the point of it can’t be the writing, as the guy playing the moveset won’t get to see said writing. It doesn’t really matter here, but if the moveset was longer it could also potentially get annoying eventually as something for you to keep in mind for the future.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Quick Comment
Quick Man gets a Quick Comment here as a set I liked...but only just barely and it has a very large amount of room for improvement. A lot of my like for the set comes from the Neutral Special, as the ability to cancel moves into a jump-projectile throw is going to have a lot of uses, and the Specials even plays off it some, mostly the Fox Illusion-esque Side Special. I also actually like the Up Special, as the boomerang that drags foes to Quick Man is a pretty cool idea. The Down Special is really the weak link here: Counters aren't bad, but this one just didn't have any relevance to what Quick Man was doing in general and it could have been replaced with a better move. The rest of the moveset in general is better than most of your sets, but it still has room to improve, but it has some nice stuff in there: Forward Tilt is fine, Up Tilt is actually pretty interesting when you remember he can cancel it at the apex of his jump into the Quick Boomerang and maybe even short hop with it to stay in the air and open up some new avenues of attack and the Jab is vaguely interesting due to it's differences from his normal boomerangs, most notably the fact he has more control over where it returns. The Smashes in particularly make me feel sad, as only the Up Smash really fits well into playstyle or any sense of flow when you would think the smashes would be important on this kind of set.
The aerials are largely kinda filler-y, though not too especially BAD, with the exception of the Neutral Aerial which actually does fit decently well into the set, especially as a shorthop. The throws are pretty much all filler and could all be improved even just by having them work with what is here in an appreciable way, though maybe I am missing something, and this could have been a prime spot to set the foe up for a Quick Boomerang, Illusion or some kind of thing like that. I will also agree with MasterWarlord in that the writing in this set can at time just be used to disguise one line attacks, though I will say I did actually enjoy the way the set was written...it just could have used some more meat on the bones, so to speak. A set with a fairly neat basis and just enough taken advantage of to be better than average, that's what Quick Man is to me.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Quick Man
There's definitely improvement to be seen here, Kiwi. The Quick Boomerang is an interesting, versatile projectile that you capitalize on well with its ability to cancel into other moves easily, and moves like the Up Special are interesting. The Down Special is a bit... lacking though. There's nothing it does that a roll wouldn't do better. It feels a bit like you designed the moves one by one as you came to them... instead, I'd recommend thinking up a few key moves, like smashes, tilts or aerials that will be important, and building around them. As it is, the moves kind of fall short without really fitting altogether nicely. That said, it still has a certain amount of flow as a quick combo-focused character whose fast hits rack up damage with projectiles and close range attacks. Overall, this is one of my favorite sets from you so far Kiwi.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Crash Man
Two Robot Masters in a row, huh? Crash Man struggles a bit from underdetail and a bit of a poor sense of balance. I dislike that the Crash Bombs explode immediately, as they have a delayed explosion in MM:2, if I recall correctly. It feels less authentic. The drill run attack also seems a little too powerful... up to 30% damage, and you can combo after it? That's a lot of damage off of one attack. The Down Special is interesting, but thirty seconds is a little long for an explosive, a shorter time limit would be more frantic. Unfortunately, the rest of the moves struggle under a criminal case of underdetail and lack of information to really go off of... they look like you put some thought into them, but not enough to really compare them to actual smash characters. You also forgot to include two moves: a dash attack and an up aerial.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Rain
I'm not too familiar with the Mortal Kombat universe to say how accurate this moveset is to the original game, but it seems like you did a good job of adapting the character's ability to the smash universe with moves like the Up Special and such. I would have liked to seen some interactions, such as getting opponents wet with water attacks and then electrocuting them with the Down Special. As it is, the move is just a weaker version of Pikachu's move. The move sort of loses steam once it gets to the aerials, and you completely neglect to include a grab-game to the set at all, which is a shame as I imagine Mortal Kombat characters to have quite, er, colorful grab-games.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Shadow Naoto
Ah, back into Froy sets. You made a couple on this page, let's see how many I comment in this comment block. Immediately though, I'm not a huge fan of the direction the set goes. I'm not a huge fan of status effects, especially complex, elaborate effects like the ones you introduce in this set. I'm especially not a fan of moves like the Down Smash, where Naoto's fire randomly burns hotter or longer than any other character's fire. Having said that, the Neutral Special is an interesting twist on the usual status effect mechanic, but ultimately it just adds another layer of debuffs to put onto the foe. In the end, I rather dislike this set I'm afraid, which makes it an outlier for your sets as far as I'm concerned.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]LGBT ACTIVIST BOT
Shadow Naoto has some weird specials with long cooldowns and applying status effects. They don’t feel especially special and I could see maybe one or two just being restricted to a throw in favor of giving her something more functional on her specials, but it does give the moveset a very unique feel. The elements are one of the more played upon mechanics of the moveset, most obviously with dtilt and uair, and I wonder if there should’ve been a more universal mechanic for these present in one of the Specials. Granted, the mechanic would probably run dry quickly as you have to arbitrarily mention effects on each and every move, so I don’t mind taking the approach you did. . .If there wasn’t so much generally weird stuff going on, anyway. Despite being straightforward, the moveset feels rather unintuitive and difficult to play.
I do like the theme of stacking status effects, even potentially on yourself. The Up Special is probably the highlight, as you have to transition between play with it both on and off, and I could picture her transitioning from offensive to campy while waiting for it to recharge for a fairly fun playstyle. Beyond just that, though, the risks prevented by both it and weakened your own shield along with the foe’s are interesting , letting her really go all out, probably using ice, before just going back to being campy with electricity and status effects when it wears off. The status effects provide her with a decent way to set up the foe to be vulnerable to Up Special, potentially waiting for the foe to be at their weakest rather than just spamming Up Special whenever possible. Of course, there’s plenty of filler and the pummel is bad, characterization reasons or not, but this one was surprisingly entertaining.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]ARMORED SLIPPY NIGHTMARE
Armored Toad really has no discernible traits other than he’s giant. He gets lighter as he takes damage as an entirely negative mechanic, and he has no resistance to hitstun or grabs and is easily infinite’d by any character. These are problems you have to address with a character this big, and of the few 1v1 sets that attempt it I would direct you to Zodick. The moveset can try to defend itself due to the Up and Down Specials giving him 10 seconds of flight and 5 of invulnerability, but throughout most of the set the moveset constantly forgets that it’s 20/10 size. It is never taken advantage of in any moves, and the toad feels much weaker than he should for something this stupidly large despite being so slow.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Armored Toad
Aw geez, this set. First of all, I think you need to understand what a liability his weight changing mechanic is. Weight is bad at low percentages, and good at high percentages, because you're combo fodder at first, but you can survive longer later in the game. Armored Toad is more combo fodder than any other character in smash by a long shot, but he doesn't even get the advantage of longer survival later in the game. Second of all, becoming weaker as the match goes on is a strictly un-fun mechanic. Imagine if Lucario started off at full strength, and then got weaker and weaker every time he took damage. It takes away the comeback factor. Beyond that mechanic, the moveset doesn't have much of a flow or playstyle to it either. It's a pretty unfun set to read, and that's quite unfortunate.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]JEANNE D’ARC
I was pretty into Leviathan through the Specials and standards, but I quickly realized that it became one of those movesets that just has an interaction on every move with the same substance. Yes, all of her interaction moves have a melee hitbox tacked on independent of the interaction, but the melee hitbox doesn’t actually do much. It’s just there to ensure she has hitboxes to throw out when a foe comes to her face, so she isn’t some prehistoric MYM character who just does nothing but interact on every move. It’s good you have these melee moves to –not- be Lemmy Koopa, but the playstyle doesn’t care about them. The actual melee portions of the moves need to be directly integrated into the attacks (Usmash, dsmash), or to have an actual reason within the context of the playstyle to hit with them. The purposes given are more general and have little to do with her gameplan. The other aspect crippling these melee moves is when you do want to use them as what they are, generic melee moves, you will inadvertently move around your water as you use attacks to mess yourself up. If you don’t want that, you have to arbitrarily not stand on/near water.
I do enjoy the meat of the moveset’s playstyle and interactions, no doubt about it. The amount of interactions just gets a bit redundant at points, and the grab is also so powerful that it outclasses the other options. The aerials interacting with the water that’s usually on the ground is weird in general – they should probably lose their interactions and be made into some actual direct attacks. So basically, the aerials should all be the bair, but with actual purpose. This moveset was definitely a very good effort, and there’s still a lot to like about it.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Barely Tea
Kat, it's so good to see you movesetting again! Always a treat.
The first thing I want to point out is minor, but it happens so consistantly I must ask if it is something in the show I do not know about or if it is a typo: I am pretty sure that you are spelling it as "Barely Tea" when the type of tea is "Barley Tea". I wouldn't point this out usually, except the tea is very prevelant and so you say it a lot and it is spelled this way every time, so I couldn't help but laugh. The move itself is actually pretty nice though: Using tea this way is a bit odd, but only because of character reasons and she seems to actually use tea like this, so it ultimately ends up fairly fine, and the mechanics behind it are interesting. This is especially true when combined with the other specials: The Down Special's tea interaction is nice with putting the Geyser on your shield, Side Special works well to split it around and is fun anyway with it's water interactions and Up Special letting you bend the geysers leads to all kinds of fun stuff, especially when you consider for example that you can bend a geyser and then have it become part of your water barrier, which now has the geyser flowing about at this new angle. The Down Special is pretty interesting and fun too, protecting Leviathan at the cost of movement speed is fun and could have some interesting applications with Up Special and Neutral Special and the application of water physics here is something we haven't seen in a while: Having it merely a short ranged is something most water physics sets have not done and offers a new dimension to her playstyle when you consider she can drag players and projectile through or throw tea canteens in there to rise and whatnot.
The Standards are overall pretty nice. Jab is only okay, with some requisite puddle moving that is sorta necessary in the set, but I actually quite love the Dash Attack, it's a fairly simple interaction but it works a lot with her playstyle, being an effective closer to the foe, which fits her fairly mid to long range playstyle, but having a lot of fun with the fact you can simply propel the foe forward and serving as one of Leviathan's bread and butter melee moves over water, with the non-interaction attack also being okay and fitting well into the game with it's weaknesses. The Forward Tilt interactions are fun and again work into her mid to long range playstyle, an arcing and very controllable kind of projectile, which considering stuff like her geysers and Down Special is of fair importance, but it also has interesting applications if a foe is nearby due to the ability to cancel it with no problems (Or as the move says, Leviathan suffering no!). I will say though that unlike most of the standards, the actual melee move on the Forward Tilt is rather lacking, which is dissapointing. Up Tilt's actual hitbox is a nice little upwards juggler, very useful given her Up Special properties, and I quite like the water effect as well, a sort of either minor or super Snake Up Smash-ish effect that works well into spacial control and has quite interesting applications and descision making in it. Is it worth it to send such a powerful move up at the cost of so much water when it takes 7 seconds? She can play off it quite well and given how she tries to range foes in from a distance or reign them in with her water, it creates exquisite gameplay. I also quite enjoy how with the water barrier up, Leviathan has to sort of knock them out of it and keep them from using it as a shield themselves, it's a good tension point. Finally ending with the Down Tilt, the effect on the water is strong enough I can forgive the more meh melee move, as seperating all the water is very interesting despite being so simple on the surface. Seperating water barriers is insanely interesting with the idea of water physic-esque "traps" from it, plus Leviathan being able to fill them and keep them going, or to even just have half of a water barrier around her, not to mention the fact you can pull geysers into positions, say something like an upside down U, then split it down the middle to create some fairly fun effects which work well with some later moves, even if only for as long as you hold down A...which lets Leviathan also suddenly crash them into foes if they don't stay on their toes and adds a good close range option, which is necessary on these kind of sets. Oh, and you can chop up puddles nicely.
The Smashes also tend to be pretty good, though I am somewhat worried about the Up and Down Smash's balance, moreso Up Smash because I feel what can be done shielding-wise with the Down Smash keeps it in check easily. Forward Smash isn't the best move in the set, but I do enjoy that her best kill move is a close range strike when a lot of her other stuff with the water is more long ranged control with aerial elements, because it creates this fun tension where Leviathan wants to find time to sneak into a hurt foe and finish them off with Forward Smash, but that leaves her more open than usual, especially since she'll be sending water out...she can go for other options to kill later, but of course everyone has more than one KO move and Leviathan has to decide if her defense is not strong enough then to just wait it out or whatnot, it's a fun thing. Down Smash is the true big point of the smashes though, I don't mind the fact the move needs water myself (I did something like that with Alice and her dolls, after all) and the effects are fun. The powershielding to remove it and shield to bounce it around create good situations with the foe where they want to get close to remove it, but they have to beware the fact Leviathan might be there to smack them or, more dangerously, has properly set up watery defenses around there, though prioritizing/clashing with the tornado is generally a good backup option. The reflection on this move may not be the most innovative thing here, but usage-wise it is pretty amazing, especially when you bend geysers around and then reflect them around, creating these awesome striking paths and having some nice freeform creativity...not to mention adding onto that the fact that the geyser will be able to fire lasers out from it's new orientation, which can then be adjusted with the tornado itself, so you have a lot of options in where to shoot in very unique and bounce-y ways that the foe has to keep track of...oh, also, you can bend the TORNADO itself if you want, then you split them in half and well I've talked about Down Smash enough. The Up Smash is okay, I will admit I might want the pull to be a bit weaker, but I do like the idea of just puking out this big inward dragging whirlpool with a sweetspot at the center and firing off lasers from the whirlpool is good, but thinking about it this is probably a bit weaker than the Forward Smash.
The aerials are where this set starts to get iffier: Up until this point I was extremely hype for this set, but I will admit that I was also getting a bit tired of the water interactions, or at least thinking they should be toned down, especially since Leviathan certainly wants moves that do NOT manipulate the water. Unsurprisingly, Back Aerial was an aerial I really liked, being the simple and long ranged spacer she needed on the aerials to tie herself together, but the water manipulation on the aerials is generally not as exciting as on the standards/smashes and sometimes just feels needlessly bizarre (The UAir water tower). What saves the aerials is that the actual attacks on them are fairly decent. Forward Aerial's wall of pain properties with range are pretty nice with an enjoyable little sex kick property on it and it probably has the best water interaction of the aerials and maybe the only one I'd keep, with the exception of the weird water spike thing at the end. Down Aerial is a fairly standard spike, but that's okay here since you can do stuff with Geysers and Whirlpools with a normal spike and so it has some above average uses here, but it's water effect is superflous. Up Aerial is basically just a juggler, but as someone who can pop foes in the air nicely, has good aerial stats and that Up Special of hers a fairly normal juggler is the kind of move she needs, and it has some added elements to it when you pop foes around with your Down Special out. NAir is probably the aerial with the least importance, but I felt that the effects on the water were not something that played well and felt horribly out of place on a Neutral Aerial, though it's usage as a shorthopped moved into the lack of landing lag is okay, but it is still not that interesting.
The grab game, however, is really by far the worst part of the set and the biggest thing that keeps me from placing it higher personally. It is horrifically powerful when she can spread water around like this to have a grab with that mechanic, even if it is laggy, especially considering the ways she can manipulate it. The Special Pummel is just not that necessary or interesting with her other water options. And most of the water interactions on the throws feel very out of place or do not flow into her playstyle well: I honestly can't say there is a single throw here I liked. The best way you could improve this set, if you wish to edit it, would be to scrap the grab game and put in even a generic one in (as long as it flowed). To pile on more criticalness this paragraph, the water interactions as mentioned did get to be a bit too much by the aerials and there were definitely some moves that could have improved melee hitboxes and there's probably some balance tweaks to be had on the Up Smash and perhaps some other areas as well. And Leviathan reeeeeally does not look or feel like a 1.5 weight character, more like a 3 or something.
But overall, Leviathan was a set I felt was a big surprise and in a good way. The flow can require a bit of looking, but her playstyle of more ranged play with some aerial play is fairly obvious. What Leviathan can do with her water and tea is very cool overall and while it does go a bit too far after a while the parrs where it doesn't get too far tend to be pretty awesome in my opinion and this has a lot of concepts to it that are overall executed in a fairly good way. This set could have been a true great if it had a grab game that was not entirely negative, I feel, and less aerial interactions with maybe some more expansion on normal stuff there. But, to me, that merely keeps it from being at the top echelons and being merely the upper echelons. I hope to see more from you! Maybe a certain very Funny set?[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Leviathan
It's been a while since I really sank my teeth into a Kat set. There's something about the way you make sets that's so in love with the character you choose that's really compelling. Anyways, on to the set itself. The neutral special is a decent move, though I dislike that she randomly takes more knockback as an extra punishment for getting hit, getting hit should be punishment enough alone, and it doesn't make terribly much sense on its own. I dislike the feeling that her moves feel like two moves in one... an attack and an interaction both together, especially since there's no real rhyme or reason to why one move has an interaction that the other doesn't. I also don't much like that the Up and Down smashes need water nearby to activate, instead of generating water for themselves. There's certainly some interesting depth to this set, and it is one of the few sets that I really feel like I'd enjoy playing with and having in my hands, so that's a credit to it.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Leviathan
Fixing the grab game really was a godsend to this moveset, as I honestly couldn't enjoy it with the awareness in the back of my mind that the previous grab game was pretty much all the player would ever use. The new one has a couple throws that are actually kind of fun too, I rather like the water tether/portal throws. Now that aside, the set still has a fair share of problems. The obvious one is that the Up and Down Smashes have no hitbox without water around, which really shouldn't be the case, Smashes should have hitboxes as a general rule, and the actual hitboxes in the set are rarely utilized. There are a couple cases where there's actually any attempt at flow with them, so its a step up from Tabitha. Regardless, the water effects are certainly decent, occasionally pretty great actually in the case of the Down Tilt/Dash Attack and while the stuff on Smashes/Throws didn't wow me, its still decent stuff for utilizing the water/tea projectiles. Though truth be told, I do feel you may have chosen something rather hard to play off in the tea, it's a fun little turret but the most you can do with it is put it in odd locations and reflect the projectiles, which ultimately gets a bit old after you've mentioned the third or fourth way to suspend it. Aside from that, while not all the aerials are bad, the Up Air sticks out as a really jarring input, I don't think I even fully understand how the water tower works, let alone what the point of it really is in the moveset. Regardless, certainly not a bad effort on your part, and I applaud you for going back and fixing the grab.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]RECYCLED MAN
I can’t tell if Heat Man is over or underpowered at times. The biggest problem to think about is just him flooding the stage with traps and using Neutral Special on them to just cover the vast majority of the ground in a hitbox. Even if Heat Man is just barely tall enough to be hit from above with a jointed attack while sitting in a fire trap, it’s very difficult to picture playing against. We’re talking about a character with few to no disjointed hitboxes or projectiles and likes the ground/dislikes the air. It mainly only works because it lasts so briefly, and because if Heat Man wants to abuse it in a really obnoxious fashion he has to not absorb it, which gives him too many benefits to really pass up. I could maybe see a buff for the timer if Neutral Special didn’t cover the ground in fire with a fire trap out, it’s a bit awkward to think about balance on this set.
He does appear to be a bit of a textbook campy kind of guy, but I like the dynamic with renewing regularly expiring traps and the actual melee parts of the moveset feel organic with hopping from flame trap to flame trap without being overly defensive in nature. Regardless, the absorption and the flame trap placing probably should be very fast, faster than they are, considering just how constantly he has to be using the moves. While I see what the melee moves are going for, they can also still get quite filler-based at times, and the grab-game’s focus on FFA is the obvious sour spot of the moveset. It seems like you just added filler to get the set out, and most of the good parts of the set already existed – I imagine this one would’ve been better if finished back when you were in the right mindset for it.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Heat Man
Heat Man I found to be a very meh set to be completely honest. Healing is always something that you have to be careful getting into, although he can't heal too much and has other aspects that sort of balance that. I do worry a little bit about the ease at which he can cover the stage with hitboxes, especially on smaller stages, but then there are platforms to consider as well which helps things. The main complaint I have to level at this set though is how there's such a generic, "makes everything you do better" mechanic that doesn't have the focus or interesting possibilities that one might expect from it. There's no downside to not being at blue flames all the time, except maybe taking more self-damage from his recovery move. The fact that so many of the moves have super special one-off bonuses for being at blue flames hurts as well, making it feel almost tacky.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Heat Man
I do admit the grab game in this set is kind of bad, but there's fairly little else to complain about here from where I'm standing. The set plays off fire traps in some surprisingly interesting ways with how his various interactions/buffs play off expending them and using them for spacing. It doesn't get particularly redundant, although occasionally the buffs feel like he may be a bit too strong with them active, as its not like he needs this terribly extensive set up to acquire them, especially when with all 3 he can keep it around for a full 15 seconds. He's not really particularly weak without them considering his giant range either. Regardless, being a bit overpowered isn't too big a strike against the set when it both has plenty of interesting ways to play around with the fire traps, as well as a pretty strong awareness of Smash, so the simpler aspects of said moves are also utilized well. Solid job on this one Froy.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Tenshi
Tenshi immediately rings some warning bells with the mechanic, which brings back Dr. House's mechanic and it's very awkward vaguely defined concepts of offense and defense and "adapting". Tenshi does it in a more appealing way, just applying a straight buff rather than arbitrarily changing the entire set. I still feel its existance is very awkward, as frankly it doesn't work into the earthquakes playstyle at all, aside from providing some minor buffs for the tech chase aspect of it. The set definently does have fun in parts though, the earthshaking and pillars are fairly interesting, as is how you get the earthquakes in the first place with those keystones, and of course you have some standard fun stuff with reflecting them or terraforming the pillars to create weird earthshaking patterns... my problem being that after a while, it ultimately just starts to amount to more and more angling, it honestly gets a bit dull, and a lot of inputs are used redundantly or wasted on stuff dealing with Scarlet Perception, which ends up amounting to very little in the set. On the plus side, the boss mode is pretty fun, and it's not like the earthshaking aspect is at all bad, it's standard fun projectile play except utilizing the fact that it always remains grounded. I just came away feeling like there wasn't much to the set, and perhaps I'm having trouble explaining exactly why here, but it's definitely not a bad effort from you Froy.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]RETURN OF DR. HOUSE
I don’t think my comment will be all that much more helpful than FA’s, but I did like this set a fair bit better than him. The concepts introduced, while nothing groundbreaking, are enough to keep my interested, and there’s really not much more to complain about with the removal of the Shield Special. I am glad you didn’t try to shoehorn comboing into this moveset like the majority of your recent ones, as I doubt it would’ve worked especially well here. The remaining moves do actually attempt to play with the established mechanics in some way. While there’s little execution that’s bad, it’s still not perfect, so while I certainly like the set it’s not something I’m especially enthusiastic about. These comments largely also apply to the boss mode, though it was nice you attempted to do anything with how it handled itself mechanically.
I agree that reviving Dr. House’s mechanic doesn’t seem to have much purpose and does little for the moveset, but I can forgive it because it doesn’t take up a Special and appears to have been done largely for characterization reasons. The two throws that play off of it directly give it some vague flow and it’s good the moveset doesn’t entirely ignore it, though the main place where I actually like it right now is in the 3v1 mode. Also, a nitpick is that when you destroy a portion of a slanted pillar with nair, the upper half will ignore gravity and be magnetically attracted to the lower half. Making the rest fall would be mechanically awkward, yes, but as is it’s a weird aesthetic.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Tenshi
Tenshi is a set that I enjoyed, much to your surprise. There were a few things here and there that I did not like... the throw game particularly urked me, what with the almost useless forward throw with how often you'd have to regrab to make use of it, or the other throws that placed severe limitations on opponents that seem outright unfun. The key mechanics of earthshaking and collapsing pillars onto foes has a lot of fun to it though, and plenty of potential for user-end creativity, which I particularly appreciate. The mechanic of changing based on the opponent's playstyle is a bit awkward, and I feel it could have been implemented better if it was less granular... there are a lot of uses of percentages and generic, marginal increases, but it's impossible to tell just how it would work in a real match when we can't even really say what a likely percentage any one opponent would accumulate, which makes it really feel more like an easter egg to the set. I also don't really like that it has nothing but positive changes, which makes her just plain stronger over time with no drawback. [/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]The Great Dusknoir
You know I probably should've mentioned this before you just dove right into the set, but I'm not a fan of Fly mechanics at this point. While it certainly can give them options for things to do inside the Fly, it makes their set a lot flatter outside of it because it causes everything to bottleneck into "force the foe into the Fly". If it's anything less than that, it starts to feel really tacked on instead, and it's very hard to find a proper middle ground. I will say that Great Dusknoir, at the very least, attempts to find the middle point, but it honestly leans a bit towards the later because when you include something as big as another stage and then he doesn't entirely revolve around it, being perfectly functional outside of it to a degree that he probably can win matches entirely fine without it. This is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but making something as big as an entirely different stage into "just another cool feature" is pretty... tacky, I suppose that's how it could be put.
I spent an entire paragraph rambling about something the set doesn't even do that badly, onto the good, you play off the alternate stage in a fairly cool way, there's a fair amount of strategy to how he utilizes the Spear Pillar layout, as well as Primal Dialga. Aside from that, he has the fairly cool mechanic of being able to freeze projectiles as traps, and his can at least all be reflected around or destroyed by anyone to keep things fair. The projectile tennis aspect to the set is pretty interesting on a whole, and there are lots of little details in both the specials and later moves to give depth to it, such as the lack of landing lag on the Fair/Bair or the ability to smash boulders in a Rock Smash-like way, or of course using the Down Tilt/Down Special to avoid the projectiles the foe is throwing back at you. I feel to a degree the Sableye are underutilized as minions, mostly just serving as worse boulders when used as projectiles and while you do some fun stuff with DThrow/FTilt to utilize them better as minions, there isn't as much depth to them as I wish there was. This comment was overly nitpicky I will admit though, actually talking about the set made me like it quite a bit more, I would say this is definently one of your better sets.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]RETURN OF THE FLY
FA made a very good case for why a fly is awkward when it’s barely utilized – it just comes across as tacky when the moveset goes in such a very boring and mundane direction. I never would have expected Dusknoir to do so much punching going into the moveset, and the most you really attempt to interact with the fly most of the time just consists of mentioning how a move is slightly better at demolishing boulders even though all attacks can do that. Aside from tackiness, it’s just really weird when you have an entire other stage and a bunch of minions, and they’re barely played off of. It’s not like a simpler fly set couldn’t work, but this isn’t it, and the character and presence of the fly just makes me expect something much wackier from the outset. I wouldn’t bother to reference the set if you hadn’t responded remotely positively to it, but I would cite Manfred Von Karma as an example of what I would want if you were really going to try to play this concept as more “in-smash”.
The fthrow is the Neutral Special, and the utilt and the uthrow are the dtilt. That’s already bad, but this has some more relevance in that the dtilt says you can go around the edge of a stage to reach the underside. Uthrow is directly stated to use these mechanics, meaning you can pull a guy under there at Captain Falcon’s dashing speed and stagespike them. Dusknoir may then recover back to the main stage either by portal recovery Up Special, or by phasing through the stage via uair. In order to use this throw, all he has to do is land a "fast grab with range better than Ivysaur's." With this combo in mind, his pocket dimension alternate stage is actually worse than a regular stage due to it not having a bottom.
Dusknoir decimates and invalidates enemies who use projectiles. While his Down Special is an improvement over Mewtwo’s against projectiles, certainly, just having the Up Special portal out will passively absorb enemy projectiles for Dusknoir. While it’s a bit of a loss for Dusknoir to not use his own as easily, he’s not especially reliant on them given his moveset most heavily consists of punching. The Down Special for some reason lasts forever, meaning if a minion is not in the middle of an attack it will effectively kill the minion by freezing them uselessly forever.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Chill Man
Now that you've made your edits, I actually do like that Chill Man displays some awareness of playstyle, with the way the various ice objects work off each other in the glaciers, frozen ground, and spikes. I don't feel there's nearly as much depth to these aspects as there could be, the spikes basically being Snake's mine but worse and allowing more of them and we've seen icy ground used more successfully in Fredrik and Bashmaster last page. That said, I'm pleased that you actually put some effort into the Standards and improved the Smashes somewhat, but the aerials/throws are pretty horrible by comparison, just being redundant with the Smashes/Standards or worse, what sticks out in my mind being that one of the throws is just a superior version of a special. Either way, you clearly have the idea of how to handle flow, but I'd like it if you tried to be a bit less redundant in future sets, and try to keep the quality going into the aerials/grab game at all. That bit is hard, but I think you can do it.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]RETURN OF THE SLIP’N’SLIDE
Chill Man’s flow mostly comes from turning the ground to ice, moving around a glacier along the ice, and sliding a frozen foe along the ice, most obviously during dthrow. This is a very basic direction to take an ice set and has been done many times before, building most of the moveset’s flow. While I could recommend far better sets than Hockey Man (MYM 12, UserShadow), I would suggest looking at him because it’s still very down to earth, the same aesthetic, and you could very feasibly have reached that level of quality with this set.
When the moveset isn’t about simply sliding things around, it’s about slowing the foe down. Slowing a foe down already is a pretty useless effect, when it’s only by 1/10 it becomes almost trivial. If it was buffed a bit I could see it flowing into a simplistic camping game, but Chill Man would need a better projectile to do that rather than awkwardly kicking the glacier around everywhere. The dsmash also is tacky in that it is the only move that stacks the slowing up to 3/10 rather than just the usual timer.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Chill Man
There's definite improvement to be seen here, although there's still a ways to go. You do a good job overall of keeping in the theme of the character, using abilities that play off of what his powers are and keeping animations consistent rather than just giving him magical ice powers that I feared such a character might succumb to. There are some balance concerns... 1/10 movement speed reduction for one second is the very epitome of a trivial debuff to place on an opponent. There is playstyle here, simple as it may be, but simple can be good too. Overall, easily the set I've enjoyed the most out of you yet.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Chill Man’s a simple moveset and hasn’t got all that many flaws, but when the set isn’t that explorative, a few mistakes can pile up. There’s a degree of redundancy even in the specials, as it feels as though Chill Man could easily do all of this stuff - creating glaciers, ice puddles and trying to freeze the opponent – on one or two inputs, plus the recovery isn’t particularly inspired. The problem later in the set comes from “ten different ways to do x”. You stack stun or slow, or throw in an ice projectile… but none of it especially works into what is set up in the specials. Saying that, the game set up in the specials with the glacier and ice puddles had the potential to be good, and you get a little bit of fun out of it. It’s a decent idea and once you get over the hump of fairly short and rudimentary later inputs, I think your movesets will greatly improve. The writing style here was also really amusing, although I’m generally pro-pun.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]SLAKING
This is definitely much better than any other efforts that I know you’ve done this quickly. The speed it’s made at shows with a lack of detail, slightly underpowered balance, and some filler, but it’s still better than plenty of other sets posted this contest. The moveset is mostly just some basic projectile manipulation, and while it doesn’t flow perfectly I like some of the more creative individual move ideas such as Down Special, bair, and Neutral Special. Rather than just having the guy take damage for using his attacks or just have to work up a mechanic, having healing double as both actually is really interesting, especially when you can “overheal” just to store up more “ammo”. While some interesting melee moves are present in the set, mostly the ones that use this ammo or his passive shadow behind him, I think you could’ve still done a much better job at making it flow into his shadow orb projectile game, though. This is still a solid effort, and I would be happy to see you perhaps build upon it now that the pressure for time is off if you don’t have any immediate moveset plans.[/collapse]
[collapse="Kholdstare"]Seems it takes some MtG to make me appear, huh? Divinity of Pride was a fun read. You have a certain way with regular Creatures from Magic, FA, although Pride is much better than Gatstaf Shepherd and Grim Poppet (and any other nonlegendary creatures I may have missed). It takes a creative mind to come up with an in-character moveset from just one card, although I'm not sure how well-versed on Lorwyn/Shadowmoor's story, which was kind of just a bunch of different stories put together while loosely connected. So anyway, as for the moveset, it sounds like a blast to play. How often has life gain been done in movesets before? Not often, since it's a balancing act, but you've put together something fair, I think. The mist mechanic fits in well, as does the synergy between them and the overall feel of the moves. The presentation is delightfully simple as well.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Divinity of Pride
As I just now mentioned with Heat Man, there's a certain amount of concern I take when it comes to healing focused characters, particularly characters as focused on it as this one is. Using healing as a sort of meter mechanic is an interesting direction to take it though that I feel confident has never been taken before. I'm not entirely convinced the buffs that these attacks gain are worth the 10% self-inflicted damage (or unhealing, techinically) though, which has me a little concerned. Perhaps if the amounts he could heal and the amount of healing his attack used up were both reduced, I could see myself liking this set a little bit more. Other than that though, it's your standard projectile focused character, which isn't all that much a bad thing. The large number of different projectiles with different trajectories are reasonably fun to imagine playing with. For a one-day set, this sure isn't bad at all. [/collapse]
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[collapse="ChaosKiwi"]Cubert
My first problem with this set is how absurdly overpowered the nspec is. Like, if it's a 1v1 match, a fully charged Anchor will do 232%. That's, uh, kind of absurd. It wouldn't be so bad, but there's no indication of how you can destroy pursuing cube bits, how far they can go before disappearing (if they even do disappear), and you outright say it's hard to dodge!
The other specials aren't much better. That side special... I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how it'd work... or even fit in with the rest of the moveset? The uspec is pretty generic, and the down special just adds to the OPness of the nspec.
Pretty much all the rest of Gomez's attacks do too little damage/KO too early, as well, and most lack any real pizazz/description.
Really, the biggest issue, despite being OP as heck, is that this set lacks any real flow to the moves or a playstyle. you only have one move, the Down Special, that capitalizes on the Anchor, and no moves that make use of the Side Special, which is a legitimately interesting special that could have a lot of potential.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]PHIL FISH
The playstyle summary here is a fair bit more ambitious than most people at your level, but it comes off as more of a strategy guide than anything. While my personal playstyle summaries can sometimes come across this way, this is largely due to me spending towers of text within the actual move descriptions about how moves interact. Several things you say in this summary could apply to any character.
Yes, the moveset is immensely better since the last iteration where it randomly turned Smash Bros into another game and prevented foes from playing the game. The moveset is mostly okay for numbers now, and the worst I would say that remains is the dthrow stunning foes for 2 seconds. Even then, the foe is invulnerable for those 2 seconds and can’t be regrabbed, so could be worse. The current Neutral Special is an okay hook, though it would be nice if you could have made something more organic for destroying it yourself than a single random attack (fsmash) being able to damage it with a hard interaction.
The point is more that most of the inputs do nothing and have little thought into them. This character may be somewhat difficult, but it’s not a wonder you can barely talk about any inputs in the playstyle summary when most of them are so bland. I know you can do better for standards and aerials based off your recent Ridley set, though to be fair this is a much more difficult character than Ridley to make up generic melee moves for. If you can’t find more than 2 lines to say about a move, it will be bad without fail.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Gomez
I can tell a pattern from the types of movesets you've made... indie game characters with a certain art style in mind. Gomez is a relatively mediocre set altogether though. You introduce a decent core concept with the cube anchor, but never really expand on it in a way that's meaningful. He has no particular ability to really abuse what he has, which is problematic when the opponent can use his anchor against him just as easily if not more easily than he can. Most of his moves are as simple and lacking in detail as can be, with only a few moves that do anything more interesting, but even those like the down aerial don't fit into an overarching gameplan, so it's hard to credit them for creativity alone.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ChaosKiwi"]No Matter How I Look at It, It's Your Fault I'm Not a Stand User
Oi, let's see here. Well, for one, I like how you have a lot of different sorts of ways to mix n match her weapons/whether or not her stand is on, allowing for there to be a lot of options here... However, you don't really make good use of it. The way it is now, it's mostly generic attacks without the Replicant, then you turn on the Replicant, and... you just get new, also generic attacks. Same goes for the two weapons.
Also, I shlould note that the stand really seems to not ne that great. It sounds quite easy to destroy, and it looks quite easy to just not use it at all. Why even have it at all?[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Charlotte
So what is clear from your reply is you take some offense to the set being called generic, and frankly I do think that's not really a fair complaint towards the set. That's not a compliment, generic is a compliment towards this set because it is actually much worse. I figured I'd start off by mentioning something that is fairly important about this set, the writing. Yes I usually will never go after someone for writing style, I've sat through Kat sets and not even bothered to criticize it unless something is truly incomprehensible, but this set is flat out painful to sit through. It may be because of the organization smashing what can frequently be four different variations of a move together, but when the animations are frequently as awkward as they are, the differences between moves get stretched kind of thin due to it just being "oh its multihit instead now", and the fact that sometimes you can't even explain them properly(looking at the Down Tilt, though if anything the image made me understand it less). Never mind the occasional pretentiousness where you go into weird talking about how different moves represent aspects of her personality, which is especially awkward when you give backstory in the introduction but not really much in the way of her personality, which based on the animations actually feels a bit all over the place.
Now, writing style doesn't prevent a set from achieving the standards of "generic", because that is again the high bar on what this set is. It doesn't manage that at all, as the set very frequently tries to flashier animations than it really needs, with stuff like the Up Smash turning her into a wire bird or bizarre stuff like a normal schoolgirl being able to produce shockwaves. She feels oddly stronger than her stand here, when the stand has several handicaps attached to it and the moves it uses are frequently weaker than Charlotte's own, and it makes bizarre unnecessary changes like the ones to her shield based on her weapon. Speaking of weapon, the weapon switch. Dedicating a special to switching between 2 weapons is bad as is, but then you have moves where the attack changes based on which instrument she's holding, despite the fact that the instrument isn't even used in the attack. A particularly jarring example is again, the Up Smash, where the instrument isn't involved at all and yet it changes the hitbox a lot, or better yet the Forward Smash where it randomly changes what prop Aphex pulls out of nowhere. Having four variations on every attack is also pretty bad for the quality of each individual one, it creates a lot of inconsistency within the set between what kind of goal it could ever be going for, even Street Fighter sets tend to have a consistent goal even if it's just "punching hard" or "punching fast", this set is all over the place. It wants to combo based off the(rather useless given the numbers and boring even with them fixed) buff, but also has several moves that are based around camping and are in no way built for comboing. This kind of inconsistency does come out in playing the set, when you want to go for one playstyle and have several moves become nigh useless because you're not going for the other, it becomes quite a pain to play, and this is something that could have been addressed in the weapon switch, but it really isn't, being based around more vague concepts of "safety" or "larger risk/reward" than something actually sensible like comboing versus camping. At least then it could claim to be legitimate versatility.
Aside from that, you have the extremely bad Forward Smash and Nair in the set, occupying some pretty terrible inputs. Given how little the buff and the weapon switch honestly do to help the set, if anything making it worse, these would have been better suited to their specials. Even ignoring that though, the Forward Smash's use of the props is absolutely bizarre, especially the car which for some reason you can squeeze oil out of like an orange. Tirk, that is not how cars work, they are not fruit, and I can't believe I have to tell you this. Even in cartoonish material, when a car is under extreme pressure it just explodes(as the full charge does), not spurt oil everywhere. Aside from that it basically has no playstyle relevance aside from being an arbitrary tether point in the car state, and the oil slick does absolutely nothing for the set whatsoever. The sign is a little less offensive, but still awkward on the input and I don't see why it can't just be used as a battering item, why do you have to ball it up into a Zamus suit piece? The Nair actually is the worst move in the set though, there's absolutely nothing in her established powers that would imply that she can randomly create these tethers/pull effects out of sheets of paper, she's strictly been using wires up until this point. If she actually can use this stuff, at least bother to explain why, and no, not in a later post, in the actual set please and thank you.
Lastly, this is a set that very very clearly wants to be Jojo, between the concept obviously being based off stands and the random Jojo references in the Forward Smash/throws. Well, it fundamentally fails at that, for a few reasons. One, Jojo characters are creative and make the best of their powers, while Charlotte here is busy awkwardly flipping between instruments and not creating a consistent plan with this honestly really easy to work with power set, this is a stronger version of what Jolyne had in Part 6 and you would know how much great stuff she does with her power in the manga. Two, Jojo characters are very self contained, they don't throw out random arbitrary jokey references to other characters like randomly using the car/stop sign of a villain from an entirely different chunk of the story unrelated to them. Perhaps the most offensive is the baseball throw, being again a callback to one of Jolyne's best moments in Part 6, but just arbitrarily being slapped onto this character entirely because "oh look MYM you like Jojo well here's a cool thing this Jojo character did please love me." The character isn't technically a Jojo character yes, but if you want to really respect Jojo the best thing to do would be to imitate the highly intelligent uses of powers and style of humor, not throwing out random references to things Jojo characters actually did like some 12 year old internet user would spout memes.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]ACTUAL CHARACTER FROM CYBERING ROLE PLAY SESSION
There’s really nothing here that can be said that FA didn’t say much better. Four poorly organized forms of the moveset exist on most moves, told to the reader in largely random orders with little to no thought given to coherent animation. Despite have so many versions of each move and doing so many tacky animations, little to nothing is done to actually prevent the moves from being functionally generic. While the tacky version would probably be empirically worse than this one based off some of your previous works, there is still the argument for the generic one winning out as the worst of the two just due to being entirely forgotten in its raw mediocrity.
That’s not to say the moveset is not plenty tacky as is, introducing powers down the line that only people who played the game would get, making implications that she doesn’t even need her stand to use the tentacle wire powers, and making it not all that useful in general when it does show up. Yes, the mechanic does have some similarity to how the direct fighting stands are done in Heritage to the Future, but in that game they will never die in an actual realistic match and can be unsummoned and resummoned on the spot to refresh them, unlike the pushover that is Aphex Twin. You can’t play the cards you’ve played and then get your numbers wrong.
Contrary to what you see here, a hell of a lot of people actually do dismiss the complaint of generic to this day, they just aren’t me. Those people, however, can’t do the cancerous tacky things you’ve done in this moveset and then still claim to be generically in-smash with a straight face.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I can’t help but see Charlotte as trying to appeal to a very specific non-MYM audience, basically the handful of people involved in your role play sessions. This is evident in the way the set references things that completely alienate a casual reader, which could be said of most moves but is demonstrated best in the forward smash and wire bird transformation. In a set like this for an original character, you should give some idea of who the character is in the introduction, or everything random seems just that. Aside from the role play I get the sense you’re also referencing a bunch of other fighting games, and fairly obscure ones. All the self-referential material makes it painful to read and assumes a cosmic level of knowledge from anyone not in your RP session.
Once you get past that, I’d find it hard to put it better than FA and Warlord. The move variations lack the necessary consistency, the weapon switch basically swapping two largely similar movesets in terms of playstyle. Individual moves can wildly vary, but despite the use of massive props and a JoJo stand the set fails to create much of anything interesting. This is because the moves, flashy or not, don’t work into any cohesive playstyle. The character doesn’t feel well-characterised and the way the stand works is very confusing, as the set would suggest Charlotte is a competent fighter all on her own. There are a few moments in JoJo where a stand isn’t needed but it’s usually played for laughs (Alessi beaten up by kid Jotaro, for example), so it’s pretty weird to see a stand mostly used for show.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Night's End Sorcerer
This set does feel like a bit of, aside from just a callback to the original, a callback to N. Tropy with the ability to make projectile saves on Side Special. Of course, the set doesn't entirely rely on Tropy, having a lot of very fun wisp interactions on its own, from storing them to turning them into very powerful projectiles, or doing weaker but still threatening setups of making them basically explode on contact. The projectile manipulation is never really dull either, when you do some actually very fun stuff like the Jab to cut up Forward Smash boomerang projectiles or crush them with Dair to make said attack more powerful as well as create new stuff to save. Unlike the usual for your sets, you rarely just devolve into filler, with pretty much everything the set has barring a couple juggling tools playing off the projectiles, and it is never redundant either. Admittedly it is just projectile manipulation, so it wouldn't be good if the projectiles weren't themselves quite fun, but the ones you provide actually do have a fair amount of depth to them even on their own. If I had to nitpick, the few filler inputs dedicated to juggling are a bit jarring and I feel the logic on having more wisps via Side Special is a bit wonky, but those are very small problems in an otherwise great set.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Night's End Sorcerer
This set I found fairly average, all things considered, though I do think I enjoyed it a little more than Heat Man, for comparison. Much like Heat Man, you introduce a core concept and then introduce a number of moves to manipulate that core concept, but once again there seems like little rhyme or reason to why one move affects wisps one way and not another. The overall sense of projectile manipulation is solid though, and there's definitely fun stuff in the set, like storing projectiles with the side special and all. I do worry he may struggle a bit too much to get off the ground, charging up enough wisps to really do anything, although once he has six wisps on-stage he seems plenty powerful enough, especially with that ridiculous ability to grab any opponent who overlaps a wisp. That seems a bit too powerful to me, at least. [/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]NINTENDO ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM
Night’s End Sorcerer is chock full of interactions and heavy projectile manipulation. It’s all the sort of stuff I would like. It is a bit weird that the wisps float around randomly, but I can see what you were going for, in that it’d be weird if they patrolled, stood still, or went in one direction, I can’t really picture it working differently. The randomness is a non-factor in any case, as NES can heavily manipulate them. The main highlight of the set that makes it very likable is the Side Special, essentially bringing back N. Tropy’s projectile storage while giving a lot more properties to apply, manipulate, mix, and generally play around with.
While I have to give you a lot of credit for pressing a button to not have melee attacks manipulate constructs (Or a more intuitive way of just not charging the smashes there), this is only half the complaint of having actual playstyle effects directly applied to generic melee moves. They are only marginally integrated into his game, and the moves that are nothing but melee attacks for functionality feel like they could’ve just overwritten the melee attacks in the moves if they’re so “important” – he has plenty enough melee hitboxes that he doesn’t need them for the sake of them. I like to see these sorts of manipulation moves more merged in purpose with their direct hitbox, an example of a move I like for this would be dair.
I’ve had suspicion of your movesets for excessive magic syndrome for a while, but I’ve largely dismissed them because 90% of these movesets have been Touhous, which I know nothing of and are largely impossible to learn about. When I see an OC moveset for a –picture-, though, I can’t handwave it off with the excuse anymore. This magic can get somewhat tacky with how many effects there are, how they sometimes have little to do with animation, and how they’re oftentimes obtusely specific in how they interact. No character with remotely defined powers could do the things you do in a lot of your movesets, and this one is quite revealing in that regard. I remember the original moveset was summons based and was some sort of Necromancer – you can literally do absolutely anything with this “character”.
The remaining complaint is that for all of the interactions and projectile manipulation, even the core of the moveset can get redundant rather than just the more obvious moves like nair, uair, fair, and utilt. Some of them are also easier than others, especially in the case of wisps, to the point it can cheapen the playstyle slightly.
No super vote until enemies can use projectiles against him.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Funny Valentine
In stark contrast to the previous set, I think Funny Valentine is absolutely brilliant. You make some very cool implementation of his stand's alternate universe mechanics, transporting in clones via a fairly simple and consistently used flag prop and creating a huge risk reward to creating clones like this, not in a somewhat awkward way like the Etranger duplicates of "KO one KO the other", but rather just having them share damage and serve as hazards to each other if they touch each other, or better yet the utilization of the amazing blood puddle mechanic, where the blood of the normal character hurts the copy and the copy hurts the character. Not that Funny Valentine's own duplicates aren't fun, whether he's using them to set up for combos, which are made a lot more interesting by the presense of the far more powerful D4C in the midst of all them, storing them up to release at convenient times, playing off them in very cool ways in that grab game. Perhaps the body swap is too good for healing, but it actually adds a lot of strategy to the mechanic, as you want to deploy duplicates at more varied points in the match rather than all at once to heal with them. There are a lot of really great balancing acts in the set and while it appears redundant in some spots on a first read, when you bother to actually analyze it in more depth stuff like the Bair/Dash Attack actually have very different uses for each other, and the same is true of the Smashes.
What really makes me love the set is how it utilizes the character in a way that feels so true to Jojo. He doesn't automatically have a huge field advantage/set up, which is what Jojo characters usually want to make their powers work well, but Funny Valentine proves how sheerly versatile he is by doing some insanely clever and effective things using only his barely above human body, some copies of said body, and his stand's super strength in conjunction with his ability. I'm surprised how much mileage you get out of such a simple flag prop too, in the throws and in that awesome Nair which seems like just a Mario Cape at first, but the more you think about it the more complex and interesting the uses of it get. I do wish that Nair had a hitbox, and there are a couple other niggling complaints I have with the set, mostly that the Forward Smash feels a little bit less important when it only really has the function of creating blood puddles when the Up Smash/Down Smash do that too while having a lot more too them, and perhaps the flag in Up Special is a bit unfun to play against due to the grab difficulty(which really should just be regular or slightly less than normal) and stalling properties(which have a purpose when D4C and duplicates exist, but could maybe be reduced to 2-3 seconds). Regardless Kat, this set is fantastic and by far the best one you have ever made.
By the way, I think you have me beat for the best Final Smash in the contest. I have never wanted to use any Final Smash as much as that one, its such a fun implementation of that upgrade to D4C.[/collapse]
[collapse="Katapultar"]Funny Valentine
The more I think about this set, the more it grows on me. Like with Arrow, I have to agree that this may be your finest work yet, Katapultar. The core conceit of summoning clones of your enemy in a high-risk, high-reward maneuver is easily in the highest echelon of concepts we've had in movesets. You follow this up with superb characterization throughout the set, emphasizing that the character is an ordinary human being throughout the moveset, with a supernatural helper. I never thought that such weak attacks like the forward tilt could be so enticiing, both from a characterization and playstyle perspective. You follow this up with great implementation on how D4C works, especially in using aerial smashes to differentiate between Valentine and D4C's own aerials in a method that feels intuitive and simple. There are moves scattered about that are overcomplicated and I dislike some, like the dash attack, but I feel I have to forgive them... it's part of your use of realism in your set, and they're brilliant in their own regard. The same with the blood puddles, the type of addition that I feel clashes with the style of Smash, but I can overlook it for this set. The one thing that I can't overlook, and really holds back this set for me in my eyes from being able to really love it is that I'm not sure that he really gets enough benefit out of summoning opponents to really justify it. Smashing two opponents into each other seems like it would be much harder than you give it credit, and the reward simply doesn't seem worth the effort. In canon, it would be instant death, which obviously can't work in Smash, but the weak damage and knockback seems a little too weak. Overall though, I found the set to be brilliant, and wouldn't much mind this baby winning the contest. Easily votable, and I'm still debating whether I might consider super voting this set, and that says a lot, coming from me. The fact that this is my longest comment in a while should also say something. Great job Kat.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Fate
The most immediate and obvious complaint I can level against the set is the weapon switch, which thankfully isn't overly prevalent to detract from the quality of individual moves, but none-the-less hogs up a Special and fails to really contribute much to her playstyle, just giving her multiple options on a few aerials/tilts. Aside from that, the set really does nothing terribly offensive, mostly just playing the role of a straight rushdown character with a few projectiles to set up for combos, the boomerang one actually being fairly interesting as well, and the option to switch between a ridiculously fast rushdown mode for a more standard one with actual durability. I will admit maybe the drawback on Sonic form is too great, which may prevent Fate from making it as much of an option in her playstyle as she could. Aside from that though, I feel the set doesn't really manage to sustain much in the way of quality once you get past the Specials, with the standards being inoffensive but simply being, and I wonder if this is really a fair criticism to you, generic. There's not much substance to any of them either, a straight up melee move can be used for very interesting things and you've done it before, but this set doesn't manage that on the melee game at any point. I had my doubts I would like this set regardless though, and the rather contained use of the weapon switch makes me think it is a lot bette than it could have been.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Vivio
I know you were hoping this would go over better than Fate, and I wanted to like it more because the Down Special is cooler than anything Fate has going for her, but really I don't see it. The other specials really lack any substance to how they're used barring maybe Neutral Special, and with how fast Side Special it may honestly be a bit broken as well. Pretty much every input that isn't a special is very bland in the same manner as Fate, but it may honestly be worse here, as Fate had some fairly standard comboing stuff she could at least make use of. Vivio instead has this defensive mechanic, which could've been more interesting than straight up comboing but you never do anything with it other than vaguely flowing into it with the ability to counter grabs. Aside from that, I find it fairly hard to give credit to a set where the melee moves really have nothing to how their used aside from a mechanic or two slapped on, even Brawl characters tend to have a bit more to their attacks than this, with sweet/sourspots around or little details like strange hitboxes or multi-hit properties. There's really nothing of that sort in here barring like 2 moves, and ultimately it makes the set very hard to appreciate.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Zant
I really like the concept you came up with for Zant here, utilizing a cage that only is destroyed/activated when his minions are. Aside from that, there's the obvious camping aspect so Zant can abuse the cage and assist his beasts from afar, though he can also join in with material like the Jab and Nair. A lot of the camping stuff is very well executed early on, the Side Special projectiles have a surprising amount of depth to them despite being such a simple move, and you also have fun material like the Smashes to add a lot to it as well.
And for all its worth, that is enough for the set to stand up on its own, and the later inputs manage to avoid really taking away from the earlier stuff while still doing some decent things, mostly in playing around with the projectiles and being useful in the context of walls/controlling the foe inside the cage. I won't deny however, that it does feel like the set lost a lot of drive once you got past the Specials/Smashes/Nair, and struggled to really pick up again. I really wonder if much better could really be done with it, given the set is a cage concept and you try too hard to do flashy stuff with that and you're setting up for disaster. At the same time, when it comes down to it far too much of the set just comes down to projectile manipulation and some occasionally slightly awkward play off the walls(see Down Tilt). At the very least though, you're always deriving from Zant's actual source material even then, unlike Rool who just made him into a generic dark Wizzerd.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]MR. VILLIAN
I went to rewatch this guy’s boss video in his sole non cameo/remake role, as I remembered you spamposting it during MYM 13 for the original Mr. Dark. The extent of what he does in the boss “fight” is the Neutral and Side Special, along with summoning the old bosses from the game. Apparently he –can- create shadow duplicates like in the dthrow, but I don’t see where he has the power of a magic crystal ball, electricity, or the random status effects presented in the other throws. Given how little he does, he probably should’ve just summoned the other generic bosses, as given how soulless they are they would never get sets for themselves. I will say that it was correct to mostly extend his powers in the direction of fire, as despite his name fire really seems to be the only thing he can really do.
The moveset has (unintentional) flow with basic camping and traps, functioning as a rudimentary MYM 5 set. The dthrow and dair/dtilt/fair probably should’ve been specials given their importance, and the traps are actually very strong due to how they last forever. The wording makes it sound like they don’t even expire when they hit a foe, in which case Mr. Dark can camp inside of them, though I can’t be sure if it’s bad wording or not. The traps have very few discernible features between them, and could’ve easily been combined, as with many of the set’s very thoughtless inputs. Dtilt isn’t sure whether the cap is 3 or 5 traps, and Up Special can be buffed with a “tap of A” for absolutely no disadvantages. Why it isn’t that powerful as the default, who knows.
The set actually flows more than most of yours due to camping and trapping being the single easiest playstyle to do, but just simply having traps and projectiles is far from enough to catch my interest or most others. These things need more actual synergy with each other and differences from one another. Regardless of having a more coherent gameplan than Pompy, Pompy was executed noticeably better.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Mr. Dark has quite a few problems. First of all, I don’t know if the fire should’ve comprised the entire set. This is a case where most of what he can do to fight is actually pretty boring (i.e. the fireballs and so on) but the cloning of the opponent and status effects would’ve been a far better base than putting them on throws, where they’re awkward for the inputs. Throws should throw, but these are all largely status effects. The playstyle is very basic trap set-up and camping with traps and projectiles. It’s nothing too bad, aside from the fire wall/cage and its balance, but there’s too much redundancy in all the projectiles. For example, the fire/lightning traps, different types of fireballs and pillars on side special and down smash. These wouldn’t be as bad if the set didn’t actively say the point of the set is largely buying time for set-up. Imagining a player set up similar projectiles and traps just seems monotonous and pretty shallow. Traps can be more than secondary concepts, but they have to be very well done, and this is sadly not the case with this set.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Katapultar"]This is actually a pretty nice set and some good effort coming from you, Dave. Over half the animations are sweet, and while some might complain about the sliding and fish gun, I found them to be surprisingly fitting. I did however, find the gun swinging and armor on the contortion to be very, very tacky, though both could be fixed with number crunching. Serial killers don't kill people by hitting them with their gun.
There are also some changes which I reckon would make the set cooler. Have the rakes deal horizontal knockback instead of vertical, as Bobby prefers his opponents on the ground - this would also be hilarious in an actual fight since foes would just get sent into multiple rakes and possibly offstage. Also, I'd love if one of the aerials had a powerful spiking sweet spot (maybe on the fair?) as really a serial killer should be looking for the perfect chance to kill their opponent. This would also flow from getting foes offstage and making the rakes deal horizontal knockback. At the moment, I don't really see how the rakes dealing upwards knockback plays into your game unless you can argue otherwise.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]REALISTIC SERIAL KILLER
Your actual Mean Bean Robotnik was only reposted as a joke and not meant to see the light of day, so your most recent set would be MYM 13’s Joker. Yes, Bob is remotely intelligent and is obsessed with his goal, but he’s just about the farthest thing I could imagine from “competent”. He’s a joke character and never succeeds in doing any sort of violence to anyone, generally used as a punching bag for comedy. The first 3 specials are more along the lines of what I’d expect for his characterization, but then we get a generic Up Special and an entire moveset for a soulless knife wielder. With how “Flanderized” tackiness has become for you, I assume you were largely trying to avoid props and do a straight moveset, but it doesn’t belong on this character. This guy would largely benefit from the sorts of props you spam everywhere – you disappointed me with not using the statistics gif as tacky cigar smoke.
This is not to say that the first 3 specials aren’t typical of your old style. The Neutral Special almost feels like it’s trying to compensate for a largely knife based moveset with the large amount of props. The move seems confused about whether it’s luck based or not, and the two “duds” can only come out from using the luck based version. . .Which kills the point of using them as mindgames, because they can’t be selected manually to fake anything. I don’t remember this fish you’re so heavily abusing either – is it from some of the new episodes you hate?
Down Special gives bob superarmor of 15% for 3 seconds, while only allowing him to use 4 attacks with .3 seconds of added lag. The move also has a half second of lag to enter, making this more useless than the likes of Jet Hammer, Warlock Punch, and so on. The animation is fine to use, but I don’t know what made this animation communicate “superarmor” to you (Or generically shooting a gun for that matter).
Side Special is the special that attempts to have the most flow, and making him vulnerable to the rakes it is of course a good move. Regardless of the attempts, Side Special actually has the least flow, as many of his moves (too many) involve Bob running around, meaning he will often get interrupted in the middle of his own attacks by running into these traps should he for some reason choose to use them. The most direct “flow” into them is with the dashing attack, bthrow and dthrow. Dashing attack involves you having to hit the foe for a 50/50 chance of a positive effect, bthrow is more powerful WITHOUT hitting the foe into a rake, while the “flow” of the dthrow is that the foe can escape it more easily if you have Side Special rakes out. Up Special has little to talk about, though it feels incredibly out of place in the blandness it has next to the other tacky specials, and the regular attacks try far harder than it. Maybe he could have, oh, say, I don’t know, launched himself out of his canon? He hates it, but the point of the character is getting physically abused, not being a serial killer. Right now, Bob basically doesn’t have Specials.
With the moveset’s rejection of cartoon slapstick in favor of a knife moveset and having the gall to be elitist about using the Gamecube Controller on Neutral Special, this appears to be your attempt to do an “in-smash, competitive” moveset. Yes, moving during attacks can be quite powerful, but being forced to move several times during many individual attacks in specific ways makes them awkward to use when he’s constantly forced to weave in and out of combat. That might have been a remotely interesting playstyle basis if handled well, but the moveset barely acknowledges it, with even his token mindgames having a bigger focus. If you wanted to do that, maybe you really should have put in your patented cigar smoke?
Misc. Complaints
Down Special cannot attack in the air.
Jab brings you into the air and lets you DI around, but the game still remembers you’re in a jab instead of making you use aerials. The engine doesn’t work that way.
Dtilt and bthrow’s interactions are very specific and have minimal animation to communicate them.
Dtilt has him lean forward to give the move “good range”. Picture him doing that in Down Special form. Does he just come out of this mythical shape that gives him superarmor?
Aerials are mislabeled as standards. Perhaps the aerials are the standards, and the actual standards are only usable through Down Special?
Fair and usmash forget that he is wielding a knife and assume he is wielding a much larger blunt object despite the moveset being entirely knife based.
Bair’s only purpose is apparently to give him a good match-up against momentum characters.
I’m sure that the notes on fsmash won’t get old any time soon, and they place Bob up there with the great serial killers of cinema like Norman Bates.
Uthrow and dthrow are terrible animations on anybody that isn’t an adult human, and get outright terrible on smaller characters. I could use MYM specific examples like Lizard, but something like Pikachu is already terrible.
Rakes put people in prone in any cartoon, including in Bob's gag. The moveset likes people in prone. Instead, the rakes do vertical knockback.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Sideshow Bob is apparently a product of you wanting to remove props. However, some characters require it, this is one of them. Smash Bros is no longer averse to props now we have Villager, a character based around prop use on every input. Bob never fights so you could say it’s fair game for him to just use a knife for the entire set, but basically all of them have these odd movements tacked on. While it’s not a bad concept to move during attacks, this set has no reason for all of the mobility options, plus it flows against his rakes as his movement makes him more vulnerable to stumble into his own self-damaging trap. When you remove these effects, the moves remain fairly random, like swinging the knife like a bat or spinning the knife like Link’s master sword. Bob is also ridiculously violent when he’s meant to be a likable character. You suggest to imagine the moves used on Bart, when they include piggybacking on the foe and stabbing them in the face. When I think of Bob I think of his over-the-top plans and failed mastermind personality, not the implications of him being a psychopath. And honestly, those implications are largely part of jokes, as Bob is never shown to physically harm anyone in the show.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I know you didn’t want me to read Argent Commander, but I did, and well, you were right. It’s a bad moveset. The problems are very obvious, mostly in the balance. It’s extremely lopsided between having no recovery and high fall speed, versus having absolutely ridiculous stacking buffs that let you KO at extremely early percentages. It may as well be Ganondorf with a chain grab on half the cast, as I imagine that’s how many of his match-ups would turn out, depending on if the foe can simply out-range or camp him until he’s off-stage. The effects in this set can also be extremely forced, like refreshing the cooldown on all your specials in two smash projectiles. In fact most of the functionality in this set, from cooldowns to effects to damage percents, feels artificial, as if ripped directly from Hearthstone without much idea how to implement them in Smash Bros. There are a couple of neat ideas, though, like a trap that deters short-hopping, but they generally don’t add much to the playstyle aside from generally wanting the foe on the ground.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Argent Commander
Honestly, I actually think the idea of stacking buffs like this set does has any merit to it, as well the end result for gameplay is imbalanced and kind of shallow, it does feel satisfying to get such an extreme amount of power on one of your attacks. If things like the Down Tilt/Up Special buff were more contained than they are in terms of use and put on a character who isn't stupidly easy to just poke off the edge, maybe this set could've gone over remotely well. That said, it is very magic syndrome-y, a complaint that could arguably be leveled against Night's End Sorcerer too but its more apparent here when he seems like a character who would use a lot of blunt force melee, rather than some of the more bizarre stuff here like the random consecrated land that deals damage specifically on repeated touches, or having the hammers refresh cooldowns entirely for playstyle convenience. Regardless, I think the ideas here could certainly be recycled and put to better use in the future, so its hardly a wasted effort and I don't think its as bad as you think it is.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Weavel
Sorry this moveset has mostly been ignored so far. Let's fix that, shall we? You've got a good start with the two projectiles and their different trajectories, making a character comfortable with covered approaches and camping reminiscent of, well, Samus. The Down Special is a very clever move as well, but feels a bit limited due to the fact that he only gets one attack while doing it. It'd be much better if he was able to use all of his scythe attacks while in that state, to make him less predictable than he is, otherwise it makes him just too plain vulnerable. The rest of his moves make up for a decent combo-focused melee game, but the moves still lack a certain amount of detail that would be desired, though it's better than some of your previous works. Moves like the Forward Smash simply are too short... how long does it take? What's useful about the hitbox? How's the range? Can he do anything tricky with it?
You show some better understanding of how smash works in this set than in some of your previous works, but balancing moves by saying it's 'predictable when spammed' like in the down smash is something that could be said of practically any move (besides some of Meta Knight's, but that's another story). The moveset really runs out of steam when you get to the air game... this is a great place to really make a moveset shine. How does the character deal with jumping attacks? Enemies jumping in? Air-to-air combat? Air-to-ground combat? The aerials are also pretty weak, damage-wise. Most characters' aerials usually deal around 10% at least, even characters who are mostly weaker like Peach or Mario. The grab-game is also a bit of a let-down. I would have loved if he could grab while bisected from his Down Special... there are all sorts of interesting ways he could use the turret's attacks in his throws, but stuff like that just isn't in this set.
I would strongly recommend that you rework the down special to give him more options available to him, as if he had that this set would be a lot stronger. As it is, this is still your strongest set yet CrazyAl, so good job on that. Have you ever considered joining us on Skype? You'd be completely welcome there to talk about movesets and whatever else we talk about, which is a lot of things. [/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I had typed up a Weavel comment already until DM came along and said everything. You went back and fixed up most of the problems, and I commend you for that. My only remaining problems are simply that after all is said and done, comparing Weavel to Samus, his one more interesting facet is his body separating mechanic. This is a big step-up from the original, but it would be very much improved if the set worked in ways for the halfturret and the normal moveset to work together. This could be as simple as bridging a gap between a laggy start-up and attack by using the slow turret projectile to disrupt the foe’s defence. The set relies on him using his weapon, the scythe, when the character is capable of using futuristic weapons or other things inspired by Metroid Prime. The balance of interesting functional moves using the scythe for melee, and those that make use of these aspects, such as the grenade and missile, is heavily skewed in favour of the former.
The set would also benefit if the special projectiles and recovery up special were further differentiated from their inspirational moves. While Samus’ missiles and Snake’s grenades are fun moves that totally can be reused in a new moveset, these characters are far deeper than just those two moves, whereas Weavel relies heavily on them as only a follow-up projectile. It’s just not all that interesting when he’s meant to be a space pirate of sorts, there isn’t any personality coming through. A good example to look at is Samus, with moves like her down tilt, forward aerial, up smash and grab game in general, where she’s always using her cool gadgets.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Randy Cunningham
I'm glad to see that you're so interested in improving this set after the fact of posting it... Randy is an interesting set overall. The Up Special is certainly the star of the show, what with all the work you put into it and all of the interesting combo opportunities the move allows. The Down Special instead almost feels like an afterthought really, and one that has questionable balance... I wish you'd worked it into the normal attacks more to explain what moves and combos are opened up by using the Down Special... as it is, it just sort of feels like an extra appendage to the set... and I'm not a huge fan of simple buffing moves like the Down Special either. Maybe if instead of just a cooldown it actually debuffed him afterwards, it might be more interesting. Smoke bomb actually has a good bit of depth to it as well, and makes these somewhat standard normal moves a lot more interesting. And have I mentioned how utterly solid your writing style is? Your casualness fits the character of a high school ninja perfectly, and it makes the set an easy read. Overall, his playstyle is still a bit basic, there's nothing groundbreaking here, but that's not always a bad thing, and it isn't in this set. I think I do like this set more than Chill Man, while Chill Man had more creativity, he had more stuff to work with in ice, and this set speaks to more personal growth as a movesetter. Good job Kiwi.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Randy Cunningham's another archetype well covered by you, Kiwi, utilizing invisibility and a weapon reminiscent of Sheik's chain (which is a common theme in sets). The former is not done very well, though, as when you use this sort of mechanic, you should have a very good knowledge of how exactly it works into all of your moves. It's just too essential and key a mechanic to ignore, like Lucario's aura or Ice Climbers' tag team set up. I don't feel it's taken into account here in the rest of the set, and I'd say the same of his buff and tripping balls. It's especially unfortunate because he does have flashy moves like the giant elemental fists in the smashes, but it doesn't really play into his game. There are moves that take advantage of the reduced lag, but that largely comes down to finding time to activate the buff, then using improved moves in the same way. It would've been a lot better had it worked in the invisibility and other special aspects, to make it feel strongly interconnected. Keep at it, though, because your sets are still enjoyable and well written in spite of the technical blemishes.[/collapse]
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[collapse="MasterWarlord"]I MISS HR STATUS EFFECTS
The moveset should probably insert that it’s only for the obscure original game(s) in the title (Example: PC-98 Reimu Hakurei), as it is not a universally representative set for her like the title falsely advertises.
She is beating the yin yang orb with generic blunt attacks, nothing inherently magical. Why can’t the foe?
Why the hell can’t the orb be dodged?
The orb hitting Reimu leaves her far more vulnerable to it than the enemy.
Point cards being plastered around the stage make it look terrible from the start of the match with their absurd quantity, and with the orb and up to 10 constructs she can place there will rarely be anything but her crap on the screen. Imagine Reimu dittos.
Speaking of, in Reimu dittos, can the Reimus collect each other’s point cards? That alone is terrible for the ditto match-up, but imagine if they can’t and they can’t tell who owns what point cards. I suppose they could be color coded, but it’s probably something that should be detailed.
So the fox laser Neutral Special can slow down, speed up, OR influence the trajectory based off where I hit it? I cannot think of an especially logical way for it to do this, and you don’t bother to explain how.
One time use moves are bad. Period. Despite having this move that would make Ganon soar through the tiers, she also still manages to remain very UP due to the rest of her set sucking. Don’t tell me she’ll get all of the point cards to refresh it, it’s big enough of a pain to get a sizable amount – the last couple will be torture.
Up Special should actually do anything of note or be replaced nair and act as a portal recovery, as that one at least attempts to have relevance.
Up Special appears to have chosen the inputs that are usable during it at complete and utter random.
Why the hell doesn’t Side Special affect the foe in any way?
Why is the mythical otherworldly trait of a bumper being a hitbox on UAIR instead of the special?
Fsmash is a Side Special that can move, usmash is a Side Special that fire projectiles once it bounces off of it. Side Special (The one on a special input) is laughably outclassed and the bumpers should blatantly all be combined into a single input, bar usmash which should probably just be thrown out. Fsmash so badly wants to be a special it can be used in the air.
”Brawl Ganondorf’s run”. Thank you for clarifying, I thought you were talking about Melee or SSB4 Ganondorf.
The grab should be a Special. Make it a 5th special, I don’t care, it’s better than what you have and it most certainly doesn’t resemble a grab in any way. Not having an actual grab-game is terrible when she has little to no hitboxes. You could also just give her a grab-game and let her grab the orb, then apply these effects on throws.
The input system for choosing what effect is applied to the orb is insanely unintuitive and is just to go along with Smash Bros’ input system to try to pretend you’re not skimping on inputs.
The throws will never be used because you need a ridiculous amount of point cards to use them. Besides fthrow, the other ones need more than what spawns on a standard stage to even use for crap’s sake. Yes they can be renewed, but if for some reason the foe is incompetent enough to let you play breakout forever you would probably rather try to get additional uses of Down Special rather than the crappy throw effects.
The throws are all just as biased towards Reimu as the foe because she can be hit by the orbs.
Uthrow and bthrow are worse effects than fthrow despite fthrow being far cheaper.
Uthrow is an entirely negative effect, as foes will remotely know how to pressure Reimu.
These useless throws are the reason why we’re lagging the game with 40+ point cards and entirely covering the screen with them from the start of the match. Good pay off.
Dsmash should just be directly integrated into the mechanic with the point cards renewing once you get all of them or once every X seconds. As is, it makes the mass bumpers look good with the raw awkwardness of this input.
Utilt is mirrored jab.
Dtilt is mirrored ftilt.
Bair is mirrored fair.
Uair is an “Up Tilt”, and dsmash is a “usmash”.
Fair and dair reference priority when aerials have no priority.
Reimu has 11 hitboxes in this moveset. One of them is only usable one time per match. One is a trap. Three are mirrored. One is a projectile that doesn’t do stun. We are now reduced to 5 hitboxes that Reimu can really actually throw out as she pleases or even remotely defend herself while trying to do elaborate set-up and collect 40+ point cards. Of these 5 inputs, dashing attack isn’t exactly something that you want to spam. She largely amounts to Nolimar with a weaker Fox blaster.
She has no grab hitbox, so her 5 hitboxes cry at the sight of shields.
Her tiny arsenal of moves do miniscule damage, so regardless of how powerful Down Special is she has immense trouble getting the foe to the needed 60% to kill with it.
Playstyle summary shows the moveset as very confident in her ability to attain set-ups, considering collecting all 40 point cards “nothing to scoff at”. It largely assumes the enemy player is a vegetable.
I thank you for this moveset, as it has provided me much sadistic pleasure. There is middle ground between the tacky presented in this set and the generic presented in Charlotte – it consists of just about all other movesets ever made.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Breakout
PC-98 Reimu, eh? The only sad thing is this isn't the last set of the contest or so to contrast Reimu being earlier. Well, not the ONLY sad thing.
Sadly, though, I found this set...well, bad. The mechanic of bouncing the orb around at it's core isn't horrible, but it is implemented very badly. The fact that it totally owns shields and dodges, in my opinion, is more of a bad thing than a good thing. It is going to be much more fun for a player to work around the orb having these weaknesses, I feel, rather than outright ignoring them, and ignoring the fact the ball going through dodges with no reasoning feels a bit odd this kind of effect would be much more suited to being a buff on your "grab" game. It also mentions that this move "certainly has higher priority than you", but has absolutely none of the vital information to explain how this works. Does it have enough priority that it clashes with any attack AKA the priority of an attack of every damage %? Does it just have transcendant priority? That'd be different than described. Don't forget that attack priority is not a stat attacks have, it is just based on the damage the move does, so if a move has "high" priority you should give us some idea of what it is (IE "This move has the priority of a 20% damage move" or "This move has the priority of Ike's Forward Smash"). Without it, that tells us nothing about the orb. I also feel that the orb could have been a Special: If Reimu is like Olimar, then something like Pikmin Pluck is no problem.
The much more problematic part of this mechanic is the awful card/score system that is supposed to, presumably, help emulate the fact it is Breakout in a way, but it is very poorly implemented. The way the cards flood the background IS going to be ugly when it is just a whole ton of red cards doing it, even if obviously better than WL's image since that is just fun with sprites, but even leaving aside it looking ugly it plays ugly. The cards prioritize playing to remove them rather than hitting the foe, which is slightly boring and reduces fun counterplay, and builds up the orb's power in a somewhat awkward way. You also drastically underestimate, I feel, how hard it would be to clear these patterns. The opponent might not be able to redirect the orb, but Reimu has a very limited arsenal to do that herself outside of lengthy setup. 30-40 on base stages like Battlefield and FD becomes huge on larger stages. You mention that you think it would take Reimu 10 seconds uninterrupted, I posit it would take at least twice as long, since she must build up her orb's momentum in the right direction, then either hit it or run towards it as it is moving so it can be redirected, then she must continue to do so until the entire pattern is cleared. Ignoring the foe hitting her or her getting smacked in the face with the orb, it is going to take time to do all that, especially since again a lot of her deflection is setup based. When a foe is pressuring her at the same time and with her poor tools to fight actual foes, clearing the cards becomes while not impossible very hard to do, and this in turn makes her orb much weaker. The fact the score is used only for the throws (The cards themselves add to the orb's power, but the Score does not since the throws do not subtract power). It will take Reimu much longer to clear the cards in the game of Brawl than HrtP.
I would like to take a brief moment, before getting into the meat of this moveset and what I feel it's problems are, to discuss the Nolimar comparison. The reason that the Nolimar comparison is important here is because Olimar has some traits that make him viable. First off, Olimar sets up VERY quickly: Pikmin Pluck is one of the fastest moves in the entire game and Olimar starts with three Pikmin. Because of this, Olimar is very rarely going to actually not have any Pikmon, and if he does he needs to only get breathing room for brief moments before he gets them. And once he does, he has access to a full moveset which allows him to help keep his setup. Reimu has a severe problem in that even once she gets the orb going, it is not only predictable (If Reimu can predict the path, then the foe logically should be able too as well, though perhaps not as good due to lack of experience), but it does not actually help with Reimu's lack of moves or anything. In addition, Reimu requires a GREAT deal of setup to actually accomplish what she wants. First she must hit the orb, which is about how long it takes Olimar to probably get a full 6 Pikmin on respawn, and she must hit in a direction to hit cards. She then must not only focus on hitting cards, but keeping the opponent away with her limited moveset, in addition to gathering space to do her set-up, since she needs to set-up bumpers and barriers to properly utilize her orb. Adding onto this problem is the fact none of her attacks are very good spacers as presented. She must also set up all of these things in a way to actually properly hit the orb where she wants and not haphazardly or she will accomplish little. She must also do this while trying to hit both card and foe, as she essentially cannot handle foes without her orb similiar to Nolimar, except again Nolimar can get his Pikmin and have a full, strong moveset very quickly. In addition, while Olimar is hardly screwed if he loses all his Pikmin due to the speed of Pikmin Pluck, Reimu is screeed if the ball so much as goes towards the blast zones because she is so incompetent without it, with a huge part of her moveset essentially non-functioning without it.
To properly make an Olimar-esque set, you have to do one of two things, or both. The set must be able to either: A. Be able to function decently without the set-up in place, even if they are a bit crap. I will refer to my own set, Alice Margatroid, as an example for this because it was described as "Olimar-esque" when posted. Alice, without her dolls set up, is able to form a competent melee game to create space, knock foes away and even potentially KO enemies before she sets up, while being a fairly low tier character while doing so. However, because she has access to an almost full moveset (She misses like two Smashes and a Special or two), she is able to utilize a longer set-up because she can fight foes away from her and actually get time to setup. The other option is B. The setup must be quick enough that the character will rarely be completely without it's setup. This is Olimar. Olimar can pluck Pikmin quick enough that, unless you are intentionally being Nolimar, you should very rarely be Nolimar, and if so you can very quickly fix that. Indeed, Olimar can often get his entire moveset back at the cost of a single quick hit with the Pluck. Because of this, Olimar avoids a large amount of issues by making it rare to be in Nolimar mode. Reimu, in my opinion, fails both of these tests and suffers greatly for it. She does not have the proper game to utilize A and will likely suffer a large amount just trying to get going and her setup is extremely slow, knocking out B. There are some other niche possibilities for this (Most likely involving invisibility to avoid hits or duplicates to setup for you while you run away), but these are the most important two. You are free to disagree with me on this, I cannot test the moveset after all, but there is nothing in the moveset that indicates she can realistically do things like clear the cards with any regularity.
Okay, so that wasn't a BRIEF moment, but let us continue. NSpec is fine, it's just Fox's blaster essentially with some orb interaction, but the Down Special brings out a whole host of problems. First off, it is INCREDIBLY overpowered if Reimu actually can damage rack with any competency, because the orb utterly annihilates shields and dodging and this move has a bonkers huge radius that KOs at 60%. The fact it is once per stock is irrelevant if Reimu can take out the stock first, as she will kill the foes faster than they can kill her (Foe dies, Reimu dies and gets a bomb back, foe dies etc). Obviously it is not 100%, but the radius and power make this decently likely when you can theoritically beat any form of defense except moving which does not beat this. The only reason this is not incredibly overpowered is Reimu will have trouble damage racking to 60% and because if she misses this once she will probably never be able to pull this off due to how hard it is to clear cards before getting a stock disadvantage. I am not against once per stock moves, but the execution is shoddy. The Up Special is fine, but I do agree that the moves she can uses seems somewhat random (Why can she use, say, Side B and not Up aerial?) and that the portal move would have worked much better here, allowing you to give her an actual melee NAir and the portal feels like a special anyway. The Side Special bumper is very awkward in that it ONLY affects the orbs and there is no mention that the enemies can interact with the foe. This means that if Reimu actually would theoritically be able to play as you want, she will be doing very little interaction with her foes due to the fact that her moves simply do not interact with them. There's also simply no reason at least one of the bumpers could not be folded into the Side Special as a smashed version, different but close variations on the same thing is exactly what smashed specials are for (IE Samus missiles) after all, and again opened up any space at all for Reimu to fight the foe. There's also just no reason this couldn't do something to the foe if they touched it and no reason that it could not do damage when first placed given the Up Aerial does.
I am also going to take a brief detour because this set's "grab" game made me consider why grabs like this seem to inevitably turn out bad. I think a large part of the reason is that there is simply no reason for this not to grab the foe. The only thing this grab does that grabbing the orb does not do is give it range and frankly it is far more interesting for Reimu to have to put herself at risk grabbing the orb than shoot out a homing ofuda at it anyway. But there is simply nothing keeping this from being able to grab the foe or grab the orb and then apply the effects on the orb. You could maybe even give her actual throws and ways to hit the foe. And Reimu holding the foe in place isn't even broken with the orb because Reimu would get hit too. The cost of the effects is simply outrageous when you consider these are one time uses and the only one really viable is the Forward Throw due to the point costing, maybe you could have made them scale or something so they cost less on smaller stages? The giant and multi-orb are fine effects, though with the way the moveset is constructed they feel far too risky for little reward, but the bizarro orb is bad and the Attract Orb is actively hurting Reimu with how the moveset is executed. The bizarro orb is bad because it follows a set pattern, and therefor does little to actually help do what it wants, and yet still has random RNG time, when Reimu would actively not want RNG because of how much she has to precisely move the orb around if she wants to do anything. The attract orb is bad because it means Reimu has to almost constantly hit the orb forward or in another direction as it rebounds towards her, causing her to be actively pressured by her own orb when she is a character with a very heavy pressure weakness. On a conceptual level, the attract orb actively works against the set's idea of utilizing bumpers and borders to move the orb around because of how it would work with them and essentially render them temporarily useless.
Down Smash is very bad because it is not in any way a Down Smash at all. If anything, this is either some sort of Special or a part of the mechanic itself. The actual effect of refreshing the cards is not necessarily bad, but it is not in any way a Down Smash, and with how much difficulty she has utilizing the cards is also very useless. It also has a hard to utilize roulette wheel for Reimu to determine what pattern she gets: Why not just get easier patterns if you charge more, given it's a Smash? If people find other ones in the charge easier, they just stop beforehand. And why do you need to clear at least half the point cards to use this anyway? Also, it calls itself an Up Smash in the description. Forward Smash could be smashed Side Special no problem, chargable if you want, especially considering this can be used in the air, and again it isn't a Forward Smash. There's also absolutely no reason this couldn't deal damage and knockback while moving forwards. Up Smash would actually be incredibly OP if anything but the orb could activate it or if it is actually easy to hit with the orb, and it'd be nice if you said what charge of Paralyzer, and it doesn't feel like it works all that much with the playstyle except in VERY specific setup (Hit a foe right next to the turret so they are stunned) or just to stall. Also, all of her smashes deal no damage and only one actually deals damage with the orb, which is another contrast to Olimar. The turret also goes reeeeeally high up for a move with no adjustable vertical length or anything, clearing the top platform of Battlefield if used at the bottom by a whole Ganondorf, making it very awkward to actually set it up. This could also be folded into Side Special, or is an option too anyway. What are the benefits of the Side Special bumper over the Forward Smash border anyway, just the fact you can have 3 of the first out? The F-Smash border could just replace the SSpec one, as I gather.
Now, we get to the standards. You mention sacrficing flash for necessity, but the problem is the mirrored tilts really are not doing that at all, first of all because they are not doing things that are a necessity in being mirrored. Secondly, you have to consider that in Brawl, even "mirrored" inputs tend to have differences: Take Marth's FAir and BAir, too quite similiar moves...but even leaving aside the Back Aerial turning Marth around, both of these moves have different damage percentages, knockback and other properties, despite the BAir basically being the FAir in reverse. There is simply no reason not to make the Up Tilt and Down Tilt their own moves with differences from the Jab and Forward Tilt even if you give them the same orb functionality as those going upwards and that is why it is not, as your comment said, "function over flash": Because it isn't about function. They could just be basic melee moves and not be mirrored, have the same orb effect and be much better simply by taking advantage of the differences you can make in the attack themselves. If anything, it is prioritizing function too little. This is also true for FAir/BAir. Aside from the discussion of mirroring, the moves also suffer as they are all very low damage racking moves that do not give Reimu any actual breathing room, and her poor melee game makes it hard to damage rack with them. Enemies will not be hit far away from Reimu with these, as they are listed, and thus Reimu has no actual way to gain time to set up her orb tricks. Something else to consider about Nolimar is that move of his moves (F-Tilt, Up Tilt, Dash Attac, Jab, even NAir) actually do good spacing knockback when used, so Olimar can actually ever hit foes away and then Pluck. Reimu does not have this ability despite being far more setup intensive. The moves themselves would be fine if the moveset did not ask so much of them, aside from the Up Tilt and Down Tilt which again are mirrored for no functional reason. I would also like to point out that, due to the lack of a grab game, Reimu is almost completely helpless against shields (The only move in the set that can do anything to them is the orb basically) and IS completely helpless against counters (Which the orb does not go through).
For the aerials...NAir is okay, it is your basic portal move, but fits more on the Up Special, and there is little reason not to have this on the Up Special, though Reimu is going to have a hell of a time not getting stuck with the random 1 only portal for a time, which is worse than useless, as it actively screws over her setting up the orb to bounce around using it's predictable pattern and, as you said, focus on aiming it. Up Aerial deals damage to start up for some reason despite no other border doing so: Yes, her hitting upwards in the air IS important...it is just also important for, say, her Forward Smash to hit as well. Down Aerial is actually perfectly fine. Forward Aerial and MAYBE Back Aerial are essentially her only two spacers in the entire moveset and therefor will be seeing a lot of use: Again, as Marth shows, there is no reason for back aerial to be a mirror of Forward Aerial, and maybe have there be a reason to use the lesser knockback. I'd also like to point out that every move Reimu has does incredibly low damage, even the orb without nomming cards and going fast, which adds to the fact Reimu is extremely UP, to the point it is very detrimental.
Overall, PC-98 Reimu has a LOT of problems, but if remade with a better orb focus could end up okay. The set has severe issues with prioritizing flash, all the Smashes and throws for instance, over the actual functionality of the moves, amusingly enough. The standards do not have any reason to be mirrored and do not actually do what the moveset requires them to too function. The mechanic is poorly thought out and the viability of it was, in my opinion, heavily overestimated, and the playstyle itself is very un-interactive in a bad way if Reimu actually was able to farm cards. Her actual playstyle against the foe is very shallow due to a limited movepool of actual moves with no way to increase it and the orb being able to annihilate any defense aside from moving which greatly reduces the amount of ways Reimu can actually enrich the orb without straight up interactions, such as trying to actually beat out dodges and shields in a way that is not the orb. The Smahes deal no damage even with the Orb aside from Up Smash and do not usually function as Smashes and the inputs in this set can be very wonky (None of the Smashes feel like Smashes except MAYBE Up Smash, throw directions are essentially random, Down Tilt hits upwards all come to mind). I applaud seeing more Touhou sets not made by me, but I simply see a ton of flaws here.[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]PC-98 Reimu
There's not much to say about this set that Froy didn't say more eloquently and Warlord didn't say meaner. Suffice to say, the concept of bouncing around the Yin-Yang Orb is perfectly swell, but the implementation leaves a sick taste in my mouth. The point cards are simply jarring, and take up a lot of space, and the implementation of spending them in the grab-game makes her throws difficult to ever pull off and feels tacky, to say the least. Additionally, there are a lot of moves that aren't really attacks in this set, but more designed to manipulate the Yin-Yang Orb, and those kinds of moves simply aren't as acceptable anymore as they were a few contests ago. The fact that many moves are mirrored doesn't exactly help that. I do have to say though that the core idea deserves praise at least, manipulating a projectile that bounces around the screen as your main KO method, but the way you implemented it with point cards to charge it up and having moves that mostly stick out items to manipulate rather than direct manipulation with attacks hurts. When you consider that Reimu can be hurt by her orb just as much as the opponent can be, and her lack of attacks that can really directly manipulate the orb physically, she's in many ways at a disadvantage in a fight. I want to apologize for how badly it must feel to have this set be crapped on, I had a set that I really liked this contest get the same treatment, but you don't deserve to be personally attacked for this set or for trying something new, and I think that that's not what we're trying to do here. It just... didn't work out this time.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]The problems are simple with Reimu and have already been addressed ad nauseum so I'll just highlight what I feel is important. Reimu is a heavy set-up character, who requires a long time of batting her orb back-and-forth. The opponent's not going to let her build up the orb's score, and she lacks the most basic defence required to attain her set-up. Without a grab, her already sparse collection of actual attacks are going to get shielded forever, and that's also time she's not devoting to moving around her orb. On top of that, even when she has all the set-up in her score the throw effects hardly make up for all the time sacrificed. This is a large part of why her being hit by her own orb is bad, because she's already got this terrifying uphill struggle against the foe while building up her orb's momentum and score, and she has few moves that both help in fighting the foe as well as batting away the orb. It can be very awkward, like her bumpers that don't affect the foe in any way. All in all, Reimu is highly predictable and not very fun to play as or against competitively. As Roy said, mirrored inputs are the opposite of functionality. The best hope is using the stock/score dependant down special, largely not requiring any skill in fighting the opponent to land, due to its massive hitbox/KO potential.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]PC-98 Reimu
Reimu on a fundamental level is a misuse of the Smash Brothers engine. It has a pretty obtrusive mechanic with plastering the entire screen in stickers, and picks out the inputs it wants to actually put attacks on at pretty much random. You compare the set to Olimar, and Olimar has the decency to use his Pikmin for actual attacks rather than just doing awkward manipulations of them that go well outside what is meant to be done on Smash/Aerial/grab inputs. No, you can't just pick inputs to put these things on at random, Smash Attacks and aerials are meant to be actual attacking hitboxes or a character won't be able to properly defend themselves. Grab hitboxes are meant to be used out of shield, and frankly a big part of why Ganondorf is garbage tier is because his grab is so bad at that with its hilarious range. Yes this is a mistake that has been made by plenty of people, including myself, in the past, but its still fairly regrettable to do at this point, especially on a character who already is under fire by her own construct which she starts the match with.
Aside from that, the balance in the set is honestly conceptual with the way you made the orb, as honestly if you did fix it to make her powerful enough to properly use that thing, it would be rather horrific. That thing just casually ignores dodges and shields, taking away the only real methods the player has of defending themselves from it, never goes away, and on top of it Reimu has a bomb that KOs with ridiculous ease that is also hilariously easy to land. She can't capitalize on it properly when it also hurts her and her actual fighting ability is so ridiculously bad, but if you actually did let her she'd be monstrously imbalanced in the opposite direction. If you did somehow achieve the perfect numbers for this set, it would still be broken in a different way, as it would still have the hideous looking mechanic, unintuitive control scheme, and the balance would be hilariously lopsided in such a way that all games would be a landslide one way or the other because of the orb murdering defenses but Reimu herself being so bad. Its pretty rare a set needs to be remade from the ground up to be anything other than completely putrid, but I think this is an actual example of that.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Davidreamcatcha"]BURRITO BISON
Man, this set brings back a lot of of memories from playing this game hours on end on NotDoppler, so seeing it actually get made is a very pleasant surprise. I actually have been playing Burrito Bison's Revenge on-and-off while reading this set in order to reacquaint myself with the character to better digest this set (the links here are extremely useful for this purpose, and I think you know that.) The direction you've chose to gone with the character is an admirable one, giving him a wrestler feel with flashy blast-zone-defying abilities and flashy names. Cotton Candy Crash! Pectoral Press! Pummel Punch! You can practically hear Bison screaming out those names in a Hulk Hogan-esque voice as he uses them.
The balloons strike me as odd to include. They're synonymous with his gummy bear enemies and he pulls out physical moves for every other attack (the only other prop seems to be his down special rockets). Their relevance to his playstyle can't be faulted of course, but I can't help but imagine that the balloons would be a bit more fitting if you were to include other abilities/props from the game, such as the propeller hat. He'd still have the wrestler feel but incorporate more of the cartoony violence and abilities that also make up this part of the character. You still capture that aspect of the character in moves like the fthrow, of course, so that really can't be faulted. Overall though, it's a very solid set that tries out a lot of new ideas and proves that it's still possible to innovate in the momentum genre, even if it has some oddities here and there.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I'm totally new to Burrito Bison as a character, but I do know my wrestling, so there was anything to appreciate in this set. The number one thing is the simple and straightforward application of wrestling moves and a sort of momentum. This actually doesn't come up as often as I'd like, because the kind of directional, limited momentum that Bison can build up and his ability to switch blastzones with side special is real fun. Later on the set continues with fun, if simplistic brawler type moves, but nothing to get excited over in terms of playstyle. Early on though, notably in the aerials, the set has a lot of fun options out of the momentum despite having to use what you'd expect to be awkward heavyweight aerial wrestling attacks. I realise you couldn't adapt the momentum to the ground, but I still feel it could've been more seamless. The set does succeed at what it aims to do from the beginning, making an aerial heavyweight who isn't held back by his low speed or cumbersome aerials. It's not the most complex playstyle, obviously, but it is strangely fitting in its simplicity for a flash game character. Your sets tend to have a grace and knowledge of the engine that makes it hard for me to disagree with them, and I think this set is a great example of that in its later inputs.[/collapse]
[collapse="FowardArrow"]Burrito Bison
Honestly I've never liked momentum sets much, but for all its worth there's not much else the character can be, and you do some interesting stuff here. Being able to loop the blast zones to ignore the suicide problems a typical momentum character has, as well as the incentives to boost as high/far as possible and the gummy bear balloons to bounce off of, at least give the set enough interesting/strategic features to distinguish it from a lot of the particularly mediocre stuff in the genre. While the aerials are very simple, they're a good practical use of his aerial movement, and with the edits the Smashes/Down Tilt make some decent use of it as well. I don't feel it fixes the grab game much though, it ultimately still feels uninspired and like it would lead to cheap gimps, and once you get past the specials there isn't that much too how the set uses momentum, the ways to capitalize on it honestly feel rather redundant after a while. Its not a bad set at all, but after the very likeable set of specials I was hoping there would be a little more too it than there is.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Sheep Mage
Down Specials forward tilt and back tilt should really be specials, as it's sort of implied that he can't use his regular attacks in this state anyways. I'm a little nervous about moves where every attack is both an attack inofitself and a mechanic maniplulator... there's always the problem of when you want to use it for an attack but not as a mechanic effect, and the risk of accidentally moving your sheep where you don't want them just because you want to attack. Additionally, there's the problem that there's some lacking in the depth on the actual physical attacks because they're being used to manipulate mechanics as well. Those complaints aside, the way that you can manipulate opponents when they're turned into sheep is probably the most acceptable implementation of a 'mind control' style mechanic I've seen in a long time. It makes him an interesting gimper, especially when you can go offstage with the down aerial. Down Smash really feels like it should be a special, especially when the Down Special itself feels so extraneous to the rest of the set. I dislike that he can't shieldgrab, he should be able to both grab opponents in front of him and opponents in the vortex, with the vortex taking longer to start-up. The throws are a bit of a let-down, especially when he can use it on sheep, but it's never really used to that extent. Overall though, this is still probably my favorite set of yours.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Sheep Mage is one of your best, Bio, and that's not putting you down as you seem to think, as it's actually not a bad minion set. The key difference in batting around a fish and bossing around sheep is that sheep are far more interesting, whereas the fish, although I remember a couple of varieties, don't allow for much variety in how they work. It's basically just that minions are more interesting than projectiles in a basic playstyle. The minion manipulation here is fun if simplistic, herding them around, having a few magical attacks to make them "evil" or turn them into hitboxes, or able to create hitboxes. It's nothing out of the ordinary, but it fits Sheep Mage, and we don't get a lot of these kinds of sets. Like Swap Force, the application fits Skylanders' style to a tee, where every character is defined by their stereotypical powers. I do still feel that even with improved throws, the transformation and spell that warps the foe into a sheep could be implemented better, but it's fairly solid just for the minion aspects.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Sheep Mage
Trying to flow off a stun heavily is a bad idea, period, as Sheep Mage demonstrates rather strongly with his sheep polymorphing mechanic, which ultimately is just a flashy gimping tool with fairly little strategy too it when combined with his other moves, or a way to annoy the opponent. That said, the set is stronger than Pompy regardless, as what you're interacting with has a lot more too it than some random projectile, with the minions having actual AI, and a few of the ways you play off them are legitimately fun, such as the Down Smash. Its not super redundant too, the moves mostly just space the sheep but there's any variety as to how. I just wish the Specials section was a bit better given the Down Special transformation feels very weak and awkward as is too, as if that was the case and a couple more moves were dedicated to something other than just sheep placement, I honestly could've liked this set. As is, it is a pretty significant improvement on your part Bio, and I hope you can learn a couple lessons from this set's flaws to make even better sets in the future.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Sableye
I do like the Sableye, after all, I just made a moveset with them as minions just a little bit ago. Welcome to Make Your Move, by the way! Sableye is very much a beginner moveset, and I would recommend you read some other movesets to get a feel for how we generally approach writing and formatting here. Your moves have a criminal case of underdetail... you should at least include damage amounts and a general idea of knockback on every attack, rather than just a brief description of the animation. I'd also recommend writing specials first next time, and make them the centerpiece of the set, using the rest of the moves to build off of it. You've got a good start with the playstyle section being included, but the playstyle as it is is very rough and basic. Much of what you said about facing against Sableye can be said of any character. Overall though, I'm glad you've joined us, if you ever wanna talk about movesets and get to know the community, you can always join us on Skype![/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Sableye 2.0
Since you've completely redone this moveset, I guess it deserves to be completely commented again. There's definitely a lot more detail here, which is very good, and the animations are nicely described. The down special is especially a clever move, the kind that you can center a playstyle around.
Unfortunately, there's not that much more playstyle to be said in this set. You've got a good set of basic attacking moves here, but they don't fit together into any real cohesive piece. Sableye is pretty powerful overall, with fast attacks that deal good damage, and you hint at some more brilliant ideas with moves like the Up TIlt, Up Aerial and Down Aerial, but never really expand on them. The Up and Down aerials in particular are definitely the most interesting moves in the set. I wish it wasn't completely random which jewel you got, maybe it went through set order to choose the jewel, ruby, sapphire, emerald, then back to ruby, so you could plan around which jewel you got. It's a mechanic that should be more central to the set than simply existing in two aerials and nowhere else, this really deserves to be a special.
I also wanted to praise the creative FInal Smash, and say that I'm disappointed that such an interesting mechanic of feinting attacks with teleport interrupts wasn't in the set proper. Being able to do that with his other normals would have made a very interesting special move that would establish a tricky playstyle that seems to fit Sableye perfectly. Overall though, this set shows a lot more promise than your original one, and I'm excited to see how you improve from here.[/collapse]
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[collapse="darth_meanie"]Terminator
I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I've never actually seen any of the Terminator movies. And I even supported the governator for office here in California. The special mechanic is certainly interesting, though with his weight as well he immediately starts to feel a bit overpowered, especially with his permanent armor against most weak attacks. The Neutral Special doesn't help things, what with being able to deal 10% damage near instantly at pretty much the longest range you're ever likely to encounter an opponent at? That's pretty insane. The reload speed for the rifle is insane too, but in the opposite direction... three seconds is a long time, and he only gets two shots off for it? I'd much rather stick to my Neutral Special which does the same damage or better and can be fired ad infinitum, thank you very much. I think you're underestimating how long some of these distances are... the 3/4s distance on the Minigun Side Special means that on most stages he'll be running off the edge unless he is standing on the opposite edge himself. You do a good job of making his tilts with his handgun interesting, so good on you for that. Moves like the Down Smash are really clever use of follow-up moves, something that I particularly like to include in my own sets when I can. The super armored dash attack attack and grabs are also a nice touch.
Have I mentioned how impressed I am by the organization for this? You two've clearly put a lot of work into it, so good on you for that. The mixture of animated gifs and still images with text works better than I imagined it would. You even included match-ups, I love it.
Overall, I actually like the set and playstyle that you've made, but my key complaint is that he's more than a little overpowered. WIth his ability to ignore so many attacks, especially with things like his shield grab, absolutely amazing long-range game, and low kill percents combined with a high weight, he's SS tier for sure. He's a fun set, and with a little rebalancing I feel like I could definitely support it fully.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I didn't expect a Twilt set this contest, and the Terminator character's a nice surprise too. The set's organisation, 'Easter Eggs' and everything surrounding the set is very well done. It's reminiscent of Jason Voorhees in its dedication to how it portrays the character, although not quite that good, the set would have to be made in MS Paint for that to be true. The set itself is unfortunately very imbalanced, to the point that Terminator feels awkwardly powerful even for Terminator. It's not the right kind of OP and it's not what you were aiming for, as demonstrated in the MUs and playstyle section (which largely doesn't seem to pin down Terminator as anything specific). From his entire myriad of absurdly powerful projectiles like the neutral, down special, the final destination-tier range on his many guns and his mechanic combined with his anti-aerial grab and explosives, Terminator is unbeatable if he plays a defensive camping game. He can aim his weapons in largely any direction the foe is coming from, and if they do get in close, he's got the mechanic to make sure the foe can't pepper him, but has to go in for a riskier, stronger attack to even deal stun. Terminator to me should be an aggressive character who prioritizes the target over everything else and doesn't use a gun until he knows he can terminate his target. Many of them are pretty redundant because of how many there are, for example you could've easily included the iconic motorcycle on side special and you'd not lose much in the dual wielding rifle. I can see why you went for a more overarching, gun-heavy approach, but it's not what I had wanted in a Terminator set.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Terminator
This set starts off on a slightly unpleasant note with the mechanic, which aside from shutting down camping almost entirely, more importantly just gives him a ridiculously powerful projectile once he hits 120%. Yes it can hit him and with proper pressure the foe might, just might, get it to backfire, but that is a lot less likely when his mechanic and massive potential for camping himself exists. Nevermind that, god forbid the opponent succeeds in pressuring him, they go down with him unless they are outside the hilariously huge blast radius.
Aside from that he's an insane camper with an assault rifle that's admittedly got the horrid reload time, but you can still stack it onto another projectile when you absolutely need one to hit, and aside from that, huge range massively powerful projectiles on several inputs, the most horrific one being the mini gun, which can be angled and deals 6 hits of 4% and flinching per second with enormous range and low start up. He has rather little in regards to actual melee game too despite being a large robot bruiser and in several movie scenes fights with melee, he undoubtedly needs more of it than he has here, as an overpowered MYM6 camper is far less than this character deserves. As an aside, the font used for the set is pretty hard to read.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Smash Daddy"]The new Negi is decent enough compared to the original, although I do feel it borrows fairly heavily from the original. This is notably in the up special, and how the set's makeshift but controlled playstyle works. For a character that is meant to be a super-powered 'evil' version of a protagonist, he's largely very reserved like the original Negi too. A large part of the set comes down to storing your spells to wait for the opportune moment. I can hardly complain the set isn't versatile, as it has two transformations, the moves usually have several functions, but at times it seems to be repeating itself. The set has a couple of mirrored inputs, like the forward tilt/smash and some of the throws are basically the moves that came before them in the same input section. Add to that how some of the moves are really basic punches, throws and so on, I don't get the sense Negi is a whole lot different in functionality compared to his original set, being more of an update. It has the same positives I said of the original when it came out, but there was room for improvement too, especially taking it in a wackier direction, that largely doesn't have any effect on the set's playstyle, instead just changing a few of the road bumps on the way.[/collapse]
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[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Jodie Reynolds
Honestly I'm pretty impressed with this set US, as it avoids a lot of potential pitfalls a set like this could've had. There's enough fodder for interesting things that the garments can actually do, as well as a very effective balance between conserving and utilizing garments. The set is never redundant with effects and always comes up with clever new ones, like the time bomb-esque effect, being able to attach almost any hitbox in the moveset to a projectile, the various buffs that can be applied at the cost of temporarily expending garments, etc. The set also feels very Jojo-esque in incredibly large amount of versatile and creative things she can do when these techniques she has are combined, allowing her to fight well even in fights that seem lopsided against her at first glance. At the same time, its never terribly broken because you have just enough restraint to keep her from creating any kind of horrific blender of hitboxes, and have a decent awareness of the Smash Bros mechanics that would take place around her set up.
There isn't really a lot for me to complain about here, so I'll just make a few suggestions for minor improvements or things you could do to top this set. While unlike Marin the actual hitboxes on this set are utilized nicely and they at least have some variety to them, I do wish they were a tad more interesting than they are sometimes, as there's a bit of a limit to how much fun can really be had with her attacks when the most creative thing a placed garment can do is act as a tether. There are arguably a couple fillerish inputs, I recognize why the Up Aerial is there but it doesn't feel like it adds that much to the set, just making it easier to utilize the fact that her garments are grounded. Lastly I don't get too much of an overall goal from the set, while its nice to have her be as playgroundy as she is at times it feels like the flow is actually a touch lacking because there's nothing too specific she's working towards. Obviously I appreciate the lack of bottlenecks, but maybe some kind of big thing to plan for would be warranted in the set, probably not given too much focus as its just an optional plan, but it could make it a little more exciting to play. Probably impossible to fit into this particular set as I know you're still editting it, if anything I just want Uair changed to something better(and its a fairly hard input, can't fault you for not having much better on it), but moreso something to consider for the future.[/collapse]
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[collapse="Katapultar"]Frank West
Frank Underwood easily has the best atmosphere of any set you've ever made and was quite an enjoyable read, right down to his presentation, writing style and the quotes that give significant insight to his character. Enough so that I would have probably, if definitely Super Voted this set back in MYM12 just for what it achieves on the outside. Truly good sets must get their dues however, and "enjoyable read" doesn't always translate to a good set.
Frank's biggest, most absolute problem, I believe, is the fact that he brings the hype at the beginning but then completely fails to deliver. The hype-monger in this case is the Down Special civilian-summoning move, which was a fairly promising and enjoyable move if mostly for the atmosphere it provided in the set. I could understand the lack of clarification on the civilians' moves at the time due to thinking it would lead into something bigger, especially with the Side Special that lets you take control of them, but then realized later on that there was nothing of the sort.
Grab game was a very fun read with the declaration of treachery, but maybe a -bit- offensive due to invoking the slightest traces of character destruction alongside the Side Special, something I loathe in a set more than anything else. More than that however, the President can just somehow make himself immune to an enemy's attacks minus their grab by forcing them to work with him by the power of blackmail via Strangelove-esque politician magical powers, the likes of which would be downright annoying to face off against. There's also a glaring oversight in the grab that contradicts something written in the playstyle: apparently, enlisted foes can quit by grabbing Frank, but if they do he'll knee them in the crotch for 20% that KOs at 80%! Never mind how randomly powerful this is and that it awkwardly works on female characters. To quote you: "Characters can can also remove themselves by grabbing Frank (remember how I said they can still grab each other? Frank is the only one who is capable of throwing with a grab.). Frank knees them in...their vulnerable area for this, berating them while dealing 20% and very high knockback - killing at 80%.". When we get to the playstyle section, however: "partnering himself up with a winning character in order to hitch a ride on their success (at the risk of a KOing knee to the nutsack if they remove Frank)"... which is just as bad if not worse, because now your opponent is performing all those actions we thought Frank was doing! I can't see many MYM15 fighters actually doing this, except maybe the character you first made a set for in this contest. If anything, the blow is massively softened by the fact that the SS Pummel can only be used in FFA Matches and can be refused by opponents who aren't blackmailed, which then leaves you with the awesome pummel I liked. This is only in 1v1, however.
I felt the set really went downhill come the Smashes, being surprisingly disappointing for a man who can summon civilians and brick walls among other things with his magical politic powers. The melee attacks felt very minimalist in use when you mostly talk about how useful they would be in FFA and not 1v1, feeling empty - sure, maybe you can use some of them with your "minions", but said minions don't really amount to much in the first place, only further contributing to the moves' shallowness. Some of the melee attacks even feel a bit out-of-place on the character what with the punching and kicking, especially with the Smashes, Dash Attack and some of the Aerials.
Also, some nitpicks. Handgun has too much range (maybe 8 SBBs at most; it's not a sniper rifle), 15% is too much damage for a mere handgun and it's just a generic stunner. Blackmail is weird against characters who would be immune to such like Sloth or even your beloved Terminator who is apparently immune to reasoning, as many would tell you. F-Smash is awkwardly powerful (not to mention super-armored) when Frank apparently doesn't throw his body weight forward, though maybe it would otherwise be forgivable if it did less knockback and was faster. U-Smash has no hitbox. Magical G-Man briefcase is ummm... weird, but mostly because of it can randomly be his most powerful move. Cigarette smoke is hilarious when you envision killing a civilian with it. N-air controls weird. F-air is also weird. How does Frank not suffer landing lag when he lands from his U-air when he performs the move upside down? It would make more sense if he threw his hands up in a gesture and did less knockback.
It's respectable to try and make a set with FFA in mind, but I don't think it works that well and 1v1 should not be neglected for such. If you want my advice, I'd say the civilians should have blatantly had a better role, and that Frank could have gotten away with some more discreet, proppy and gesture-y animations for his attacks instead of pretending to be a martial artist when he apparently despises such and would prefer to use his wits. Heck, maybe you could have even given this guy bodyguards since he -is- the President, as I could understand not wanting to use civilians as proper minions due to them being... civilians, and the fact that you can't really do much with them to begin with. Overall, the set was very questionable, but it was definitely an experience and fun in its own right.[/collapse]
[collapse="MasterWarlord"]MR. VON KARMA PARODY
Set “designed for FFA” knocks off immediate points for me. DM over there doesn’t even read 3v1 sets and gets away with it, and I remember several of your group having similar thoughts.
His relevance to FFA specifically amounts to one pummel. One pummel that any character in the game could be given for an entirely identical effect.
Citizens need more HP to be viable.
Citizens should borrow attacks from a Brawl character or have their attacks explained. This is a rather obnoxious detail to leave out when his set revolves around them.
Turning a voter into a secret service member restores their HP, so the negative of blackmailing them is entirely irrelevant.
There is an infinite if you make a secret service member and give them a gun – you just take turns shooting your guns at them as they stay in high stun. Granted, Frank has to summon a citizen, blackmail them, make them join the secret service, AND give them a gun, during which time the foe can easily take out their 25 HP (Or briefly 13 HP when blackmailed), so it probably will never happen. It’s also possible this infinite won’t work if secret service members don’t become immune to you as you shoot both them and the foe, but this would just make him even more underpowered.
Could you at least have had him shoot enemies who betray him, instead of having him knee them in the crotch? The power is ridiculous for a human.
There is no reason fthrow should not do damage to foes.
Bthrow is 3% per second to foes as a very bad/laggy “pummel”, which you can’t use a throw on if you commit to it.
Usmash should really have a hitbox when it comes out, and I really see little to no purpose to the thing anyway.
Jab has invalidated enemy projectiles, and has no cap on what can be stored, no matter how large.
While the Gluttony Beam can be stored by the jab briefcase, for some inexplicable reason the dtilt smoke is the only substance known to man that cannot.
Frank pointing on ftilt is more powerful than several of his kicks and other physical attacks. It’s good the move has a hitbox if you were going this route, but I don’t really like it either way.
Utilt will make citizens forgive being shot in the face in exchange for $10. Think about that for a second.
KO percentages missing throughout the moveset, even on moves that claim to be KO moves.
This is a very serious character, this is not one I would advise you do props for, unlike Bob who did not have enough. The superpowers throughout the set make it into a more jokey moveset.
The moveset recommends turning 2v2 matches into 1v1v2 matches with a straight face. I’m getting flashbacks to G Man’s dthrow.
This was the best part of my 4th of July, and I thank you. This was really what I was hoping for when I saw Bob. Please continue posting movesets, we were severely lacking in movesets of this quality.[/collapse]
[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Frank Underwood goes downhill very quickly after the specials, which largely build up a base to expand upon. That is a generic politician. It's a bit on the nose but not a bad idea for a set, although I get no sense from this character's gameplay who he is or his series. The grab game gets very finicky about certain effects and team status. I do not like how this set approaches FFAs, as besides the vaguely defined minions and their interactions, Underwood's playstyle comes down to cancelling out other movesets in a particularly tacky way. He can absorb projectiles into his G-Man briefcase, summon a wall, and with some obtuse grab game effects force a KO move counter to a grab. Not to mention blowing harmful cigar smoke around, a super armoured punch (I really don't know what to call that smash), and a body slam on an aerial. But the relevant point of the cancelling out in FFAs is that this set would largely revolve around finding the most broken way of abusing his quasi-immunities to make him invulnerable to attacks, either by allying himself or using his briefcase/counter/wall. I don't find a FFA focus inexcusable, but considering this may as well be an OC with how little it has specifically from the character and the liberal use of minions, it has no excuse for so little playstyle in 1v1.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Frank Underwood
There's fairly little for me to say here that Smady and Warlord haven't said better, but the set honestly may be worse as a purely free for all set, as forcing people to work with Frank Underwood is not a good concept. It just makes him pretty much a shoe-in for the victor on the results screen when if the character wants to win without his presense they have to awkwardly run around and grab him, then get magically knee'd in their often non-existant crotch to take a ludicrous amount of damage and knockback. His team support tactics are honestly pretty boring too, just healing a player or giving them a gun. Non-FFA oriented sets make the mode far more interesting than any sort of support tactics Frank can give, and they make any more than 2 player match with Frank in it revolve around him in a very unhealthy manner. While he's obviously very bad as a single player set when he's busy summoning random walls and using G-Man's briefcase on the standards, saying he's meant to be judged off FFAs actually makes him worse, as that's the mode where the terrible aspects of this set truly shine through in forcing alliances in the bluntest and most obnoxious way possible.[/collapse]
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