Make Your Move 14 - This is Snake, I'm done here

[Rychu]

Hey guys I hate to be the downer here, but it'd be appreciated by all if requests for set comments could be cut down a bit. I know it sucks to wait for critique but we've recently had a massive upsurge in move sets, so it'll take people a little while to get to them. Be patient and comments will come!

 

[Junahu]

If you look at ninety-nine-percent of sets over the past few years, the playstyle is at the end, so I'm not sure what Junahu is talking about.

Strange, I thought I put my point through coherantly enough. But since you're a unique snowflake, and snowflakes have a tough time understanding things, I won't mind repeating myself;
I think there are unique advantages to having a playstyle section at the start instead of at the end. Things don't always have to be done in one exact way, that just invites lazy homogeny.

Of course, as Z1GMA very rightly suggested, there's a great deal of potential in having playstyle sections at both ends of the moveset. Best of both worlds, yes?

 

[Deleted member]

Strange, I thought I put my point through coherantly enough. But since you're a unique snowflake, and snowflakes have a tough time understanding things, I won't mind repeating myself;

No one puts playstyle sections at the start of their movesets, for good reason. It's counter-intuitive for the writer and reader, who have yet to write or read the set. To be cohesive, you should also not write a section at the end and put it at the start.

Very, very simple stuff that has been universally-accepted for ever. Lets not coddle the new guys purely on the basis they're new, I know you don't read sets anymore so I'll cut you some slack.

 

[Rychu]

STAHP FITAN D':

 

[Deleted member]

Lets.

I'll just post my not confrontational at all TAC comment now. I'll cook up more as soon as I can.

TAC is one of the worst sets Junahu has ever made. An accomplishment given how experimental he’s gotten, but this is really offensive on a couple of levels besides being an outright god awful moveset. You missed the point of the original and completely twisted it to serve a new ulterior motive; kissing up to Rool. I would imagine Rool, as gracious as he likes to be these days in his grave, may deny this, but it’s absolutely true. The original TAC was arguably, emphasis on argubaly, a joke set, but it had one big positive that made it a good proponent of other aspects of Make Your Move. That is, the match-ups that Rool painstakingly created for dozens of sets in the same contest. Your disgraceful offering in place of that is Rool’s ancient movesets that have zero significance beyond being made by the same author as the original TAC. I actually do find it insulting as not a huge fan of Rool by any means, that you chose TAC to be his tribute. Not Gengar, Tutankoopa, Skeleton… this highly experimental set. Why?

Oh yeah. You made that obnoxious advertisement for TAC. We can all cringingly remember that one. And now you’re back to prove the timeless nature of this concept.

Well, even in that regard, you screwed up the set. You’ve added angle-able and charge-able qualities to every copy move, plus you've removed three of the specials to be nudged aside by generic recoveries and an abhorrent new down special. This is already worse than the original, years old TAC at this point. You go back on the specials immediately in these comparably scarce match-ups, to be exact Father Time, where you give an exception to a single character. Assuming you didn’t hit a mine in your random collection of one guy’s sets, I don’t see how multiple exceptions for different characters in a Free-For-All or Team setting can ever work. There we have it, everyone, the set solely praised in its time for FFAs now doesn’t work in certain FFAs. To finish it off, you’ve given this great memorial a far blander, less inspired organisation by taking out the old boxed layout once more, and you’ve somehow got a more confusing writing style. It took several Skype’s back when this set first came out to figure out the tiny new details that you hid away in those mysterious little boxes.

Now we’ve gotten that out of the way, I feel I owe the entire concept a run-through because it is truly awful in its basic form alone. Regardless of the character’s mediocre stats, there is no reason for playing this character over your opponent. Unlike in other fighting games where the “copy” fighter chooses another moveset randomly and has it in whole, TAC both has to copy each move individually and goes into each fight with the opponent knowing what they’re up against. In a remotely competitive setting, TAC is Z-tier. Even the weakest characters like Ganondorf have players who know their character better than TAC players, who has to learn every character in existence to begin to be competitive. That’s forgiving the fact he has to re-learn everything once he’s KO’d too. Usually I’d look over a flaw that could be so easily removed, but in a set this barebones; it’s a shocking anti-user friendly addition. No one in their right mind wants to play as a character that has no individuality or playability. Casuals won’t understand it, competitive players would treat it rightly as a joke set. Intermediates would at best play it as a joke against lower-skilled players and that’s all it has to its credit.


Finally, the whole idea is affectingly stupid. Kirby is basically TAC, he steals moves, but in Smash he doesn’t steal every single move as if they’re each abilities. He simply gains a hat to use a foe’s main ability and that would be the most logical set for TAC. He has Kirby’s neutral special, obviously slightly different as he’s not going to wear the hat or suck up enemies, but that be all. TAC does nothing aside from launch a disjointed hand, but there have been far better sets in Make Your Move based off less than that. A generic ninja set or play on the copy ability would be the sane approach. Instead we get a random enemy from Kirby, becoming a create-a-moveset character, who can’t play against himself properly because he has one default KO move. This simple character has gone from a joke set originally in Smeargle, to a half-joke, half-experiment in Rool TAC, to a total joke… and one that captivates actual praise? If you want a good set in this ‘genre’ go read Lizard or VideoMan.EXE off the top of my head. This set is an insult to modern Make Your Move, ignorant of everything going on around it to do with coming to terms with what constitutes an in-smash set and some real breakthroughs in characterization, too arrogant to acknowledge the movesets posted directly around it. On a personal level, it sums up the toxic mindset held by inactive members of the old guard and pats them on the back for their fear of what’s new in Make Your Move. “I haven’t read any new sets, but the old ones were better!” A nostalgic travesty, in more ways than one.

 

[Kholdstare]

Mendez put playstyle sections at the beginning of his movesets, and they're some of the best ever.

I'd write a set comment but I'm too busy playing Binding of Isaac.

 

[Deleted member]

Mendez put playstyle sections at the beginning of his movesets, and they're some of the best ever.

I'd write a set comment but I'm too busy playing Binding of Isaac.

Mendez's sets came out a long, long time ago, in MYM3-4. You're right many of them had a "how to play" section at the start, but even some of his most famous sets like Deoxys had nothing at all, showing it's only really a sign of the times.

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

This set is an insult to modern Make Your Move, ignorant of everything going on around it to do with coming to terms with what constitutes an in-smash set and some real breakthroughs in characterization, too arrogant to acknowledge the movesets posted directly around it.

I do like how you still have a comment THIS hostile on ANY MYM set - from what I've heard, you've been paranoid about MYM falling apart yet you seem to insist on driving off people at every opportunity. Clearly this is incredibly attractive to newcomers.

 

[Kholdstare]

This comment got Thanos-snapped.

 

[Deleted member]

I have every right to be critical, in fact I see being critical, when fair, as a cornerstone of making and discussing movesets.

This set is particularly bad. If you don't believe me, just go read it. You're free to praise it all you want and counter my points. That's how this is supposed to work, after all.

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

I have every right to be critical, in fact I see being critical, when fair, as a cornerstone of making and discussing movesets.

This set is particularly bad. If you don't believe me, just go read it. You're free to praise it all you want and counter my points. That's how this is supposed to work, after all.

It's just notably harsh of you - I wouldn't have expected you to say something that harsh to even the likes of Freaky Fred or Captain Hook. I'm sensing some rage against Jun.

 

[Kholdstare]

I'm sensing some rage against Jun.

And you're exactly right Dave.

Geto: Junahu and Smady, stop fighting.

Smady: Lets. I'll just post my not confrontational at all TAC comment now.

Intentionally baiting more fighting from Junahu with a completely negative comment.

An accomplishment given how experimental he’s gotten, but this is really offensive on a couple of levels besides being an outright god awful moveset. You missed the point of the original and completely twisted it to serve a new ulterior motive; kissing up to Rool.

A personal attack on Junahu that has nothing to do with the set itself. Commits the logical fallacy of strawmanning, among other things.

Oh yeah. You made that obnoxious advertisement for TAC. We can all cringingly remember that one.

Puts words in everyone's mouth and brings up something that has nothing to do with Junahu's TAC moveset. No, we all don't cringe when we remember that ad.

It took several Skype’s back when this set first came out to figure out the tiny new details that you hid away in those mysterious little boxes.

Several Skypes back. He has not discussed this set with Junahu at all, not even in the thread, but instead with other people on Skype. He now waits to post this comment conveniently after an argument with Jun in the thread.

This set is an insult to modern Make Your Move, ignorant of everything going on around it to do with coming to terms with what constitutes an in-smash set and some real breakthroughs in characterization, too arrogant to acknowledge the movesets posted directly around it. On a personal level, it sums up the toxic mindset held by inactive members of the old guard and pats them on the back for their fear of what’s new in Make Your Move. “I haven’t read any new sets, but the old ones were better!” A nostalgic travesty, in more ways than one.

Speaks for itself. This comment is a ****ing travesty.



As for the part of this rage-filled rant that is actually about TAC the moveset...

Well, even in that regard, you screwed up the set. You’ve added angle-able and charge-able qualities to every copy move, plus you've removed three of the specials to be nudged aside by generic recoveries and an abhorrent new down special. This is already worse than the original, years old TAC at this point.

A MYMer putting his own ideas on his version of the character and adding variability in the moves is "screwing up", apparently.

You go back on the specials immediately in these comparably scarce match-ups, to be exact Father Time, where you give an exception to a single character. [...] Assuming you didn’t hit a mine in your random collection of one guy’s sets, I don’t see how multiple exceptions for different characters in a Free-For-All or Team setting can ever work. There we have it, everyone, the set solely praised in its time for FFAs now doesn’t work in certain FFAs. [...] Regardless of the character’s mediocre stats, there is no reason for playing this character over your opponent. Unlike in other fighting games where the “copy” fighter chooses another moveset randomly and has it in whole, TAC both has to copy each move individually and goes into each fight with the opponent knowing what they’re up against. In a remotely competitive setting, TAC is Z-tier. Even the weakest characters like Ganondorf have players who know their character better than TAC players, who has to learn every character in existence to begin to be competitive.

Matchups are the authors interpetation of how a theoretical fight between two theoretical movesets that exist only in creative writing form would work. It is essentially the same as a comic book battle. One author might have Superman beat Black Adam, another might write it the other way around. You cannot accurately predict any technical advantages or tiers in Smash Brothers simply from a standpoint like this. It is impossible. If Sakurai handed you the character roster of SSB4 with every technical detail of every character written down, which is 100x more than what we are doing with our sets, and asked you to predict the results of EVO tournaments seven years from now, could you? And no one in MYM will be able to accurately predict a FFA, especially with a game changer like TAC in one. Just because you don't see how it works doesn't mean others can't. And Rool's TAC wasn't solely praised in it's time for working in FFAs, that's is a literal lie.

To finish it off, you’ve given this great memorial a far blander, less inspired organisation by taking out the old boxed layout once more, and you’ve somehow got a more confusing writing style. It took several Skype’s back when this set first came out to figure out the tiny new details that you hid away in those mysterious little boxes.

I like the presentation. It will appeal to different people.

No one in their right mind wants to play as a character that has no individuality or playability. Casuals won’t understand it, competitive players would treat it rightly as a joke set. Intermediates would at best play it as a joke against lower-skilled players and that’s all it has to its credit.

Copying moves is as simple as it gets. TAC, both of them, are much, much easier to understand than, say, Videoman, Spy, or Lunge.

Finally, the whole idea is affectingly stupid. Kirby is basically TAC, he steals moves, but in Smash he doesn’t steal every single move as if they’re each abilities. He simply gains a hat to use a foe’s main ability and that would be the most logical set for TAC. He has Kirby’s neutral special, obviously slightly different as he’s not going to wear the hat or suck up enemies, but that be all. TAC does nothing aside from launch a disjointed hand, but there have been far better sets in Make Your Move based off less than that. A generic ninja set or play on the copy ability would be the sane approach. Instead we get a random enemy from Kirby, becoming a create-a-moveset character, who can’t play against himself properly because he has one default KO move.

Guess what? People can interpret characters into movesets any way they want! Kirby is not "basically TAC", they're different on a fundamental level. Kirby inhales his foes, swallows them, and inherits their powers as a hat. Unless you're playing TF2, you're not wearing multiple hats. TAC swipes a power and puts it in his bag. That bag can hold much more than one thing. Notice how TAC in Junahu's moveset fills up his bag as he steals moves? You simplify him as "does nothing but this one thing" and acts as if that's a bad thing. You actually advocate for a far more generic set than this as an improvement?! TAC has done more unique things than most sets in this contest, and his concept has been done before. Junahu puts his own flair to it, and that's what makes it rock. I would rather see create-a-moveset than unsmash 3v1 boss set. TAC at least pretends to be a Smash Bros character you play as along with other characters.

This simple character has gone from a joke set originally in Smeargle, to a half-joke, half-experiment in Rool TAC, to a total joke… and one that captivates actual praise? If you want a good set in this ‘genre’ go read Lizard or VideoMan.EXE off the top of my head.

Yes, it gets praise for a reason. Not everyone is a hivemind of "like this thing and only this." And telling people to read such a convoluted set as VideoMan.EXE over a simpler one like TAC isn't helping.

 

[Deleted member]

Talking about the history of TAC is relevant, the set is very much a tribute to Rool and TAC.

I never understand arguments stating what someone can do. Yes, he can make TAC completely out-of-character and broken. If you read the set instead of bashing a comment on the set you may understand.

 

[Kholdstare]

On a more positive note, I have updated the Robot Master List on page 9. I hope someone will upd8 the one on the Plaza as well. I might be working on a set too! but I'll quit halfway through and play video games. Most likely. Or watch more SnK parody videos on Youtube.

EDIT: If you had been paying attention, Smady, then you would have realized I did in fact read TAC. Also thanks for responding to only two of my points, the rest must be correct.

 

[FrozenRoy]

@ Junahu: It didn't make the set unreadable, but I didn't understand it until after I read the moves, and it felt less effective than a playstyle summary at the end. If you can write an engaging summary that works better at the start, do so...but, as a general rule, MOST movesets do not do this at the start because doing so is both difficult and, in many cases, ineffective. There is a reason I said "General rule" and not "all": Because, yes, a playstyle section at the start CAN work...but most of the time it does not.

@ Smady: I don't have any comments on your TAC comment, we've already had many discussions about TAC and I do not feel like we will change each other's opinion, this comment is distressingly negative in ways unrelated to it's quality. Quite honestly, the last paragraph, including things like "an insult to Make Your Move", reads less like an actual comment about a moveset and more like...I dunno how to put it, just kind of insulting, mostly near the end. I don't have a problem with your views and thinking TAC is a horrible moveset, but please try to keep it civil: MYM has no place for insulting other members for the movesets they make, regardless of you and Junahu's bad blood between each other.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say the same things no matter who the author was, I simply hate the set. That's all there is to it.

 

[Junahu]

Heracross:​

I enjoyed the physicality of this moveset. It's all very much focused on figuratively locking horns with your foe, getting in their face and never backing down. The moves are all relatively simple, but they get their point across, and there's no fluff in the writing either. It's nicely concise.​

​

But I have to repeat n88's criticism, that Heracross is not a poisonous insect, and should not be using Toxic. Heracross has no other Poison moves (even via TM). And Toxic is something EVERYTHING can learn. Heracross is no more poisonous than Pikachu, or Squirtle. Basically, my issue is that Toxic isn't a very Heracross like move, and that damages the way the moveset is characterised. It's especially surprising, given that the rest of his moves are pitch perfect for the fighting beetle. ​

​

Personally, I would have anchored the moveset around moves like Feint, or Endure, to complement his Counter attack. I would also try to think of a way to get the player to focus on Heracross' horn as a tool for spacing, prodding, and eventually KOing. Perhaps something as simple as Heracross having a shorter 'clank' animation than other characters (when two similarly powerful attacks collide, both players suffer a short delay from the clash) so that he can cancel out a foe's quicker attacks and then proceed to punish them​

I'm basically rambling ideas at this point. But that's an integral part of making movesets; finding/exploring ideas that complement the overall design and character of what you're trying to make​

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​

​

But the set doesn't play off of Toxic; once it's mentioned, it's forgotten about. No mention is made of how Heracross can use other moves or strategies to interact with Toxic.

I believe the intended purpose here was to force the opponent to dash back and forth (which basically destroys their spacing and opens them wide for punishment) in order to dispel the passive damage. It doesn't really need to have any direct relation to the rest of Heracross' attacks, because Toxic is a tool that enables his pressure.

 

[Agi]

Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of TAC, not even when Rool initially posted it, but I couldn't bring myself to pass up the opportunity this comment presented. With all the various requests for commentary (or "critique," as seems to be the popular new term) it's worth the time to take a refresher course on what makes a good and bad comment. This one contains examples of both types! For reference, I've greyed out portions of the comment which I feel contribute little, if anything to critiquing the set, whether positive or negative.

I'll just post my not confrontational at all TAC comment now. I'll cook up more as soon as I can.

TAC is one of the worst sets Junahu has ever made. An accomplishment given how experimental he’s gotten, but this is really offensive on a couple of levels besides being an outright god awful moveset. You missed the point of the original and completely twisted it to serve a new ulterior motive; kissing up to Rool. I would imagine Rool, as gracious as he likes to be these days in his grave, may deny this, but it’s absolutely true. The original TAC was arguably, emphasis on argubaly, a joke set, but it had one big positive that made it a good proponent of other aspects of Make Your Move. That is, the match-ups that Rool painstakingly created for dozens of sets in the same contest. Your disgraceful offering in place of that is Rool’s ancient movesets that have zero significance beyond being made by the same author as the original TAC. I actually do find it insulting as not a huge fan of Rool by any means, that you chose TAC to be his tribute. Not Gengar, Tutankoopa, Skeleton… this highly experimental set. Why?

Oh yeah. You made that obnoxious advertisement for TAC. We can all cringingly remember that one. And now you’re back to prove the timeless nature of this concept.

Well, even in that regard, you screwed up the set. You’ve added angle-able and charge-able qualities to every copy move, plus you've removed three of the specials to be nudged aside by generic recoveries and an abhorrent new down special. This is already worse than the original, years old TAC at this point. You go back on the specials immediately in these comparably scarce match-ups, to be exact Father Time, where you give an exception to a single character. Assuming you didn’t hit a mine in your random collection of one guy’s sets, I don’t see how multiple exceptions for different characters in a Free-For-All or Team setting can ever work. There we have it, everyone, the set solely praised in its time for FFAs now doesn’t work in certain FFAs. To finish it off, you’ve given this great memorial a far blander, less inspired organisation by taking out the old boxed layout once more, and you’ve somehow got a more confusing writing style. It took several Skype’s back when this set first came out to figure out the tiny new details that you hid away in those mysterious little boxes.

Now we’ve gotten that out of the way, I feel I owe the entire concept a run-through. because it is truly awful in its basic form alone. Regardless of the character’s mediocre stats, there is no reason for playing this character over your opponent. Unlike in other fighting games where the “copy” fighter chooses another moveset randomly and has it in whole, TAC both has to copy each move individually and goes into each fight with the opponent knowing what they’re up against. In a remotely competitive setting, TAC is Z-tier. Even the weakest characters like Ganondorf have players who know their character better than TAC players, who has to learn every character in existence to begin to be competitive. That’s forgiving the fact he has to re-learn everything once he’s KO’d too. Usually I’d look over a flaw that could be so easily removed, but in a set this barebones; it’s a shocking anti-user friendly addition. No one in their right mind wants to play as a character that has no individuality or playability. Casuals won’t understand it, competitive players would treat it rightly as a joke set. Intermediates would at best play it as a joke against lower-skilled players and that’s all it has to its credit.



Finally, the whole idea is affectingly stupid. Kirby is basically TAC, he steals moves, but in Smash he doesn’t steal every single move as if they’re each abilities. He simply gains a hat to use a foe’s main ability and that would be the most logical set for TAC. He has Kirby’s neutral special, obviously slightly different as he’s not going to wear the hat or suck up enemies, but that be all. TAC does nothing aside from launch a disjointed hand, but there have been far better sets in Make Your Move based off less than that. A generic ninja set or play on the copy ability would be the sane approach. Instead we get a random enemy from Kirby, becoming a create-a-moveset character, who can’t play against himself properly because he has one default KO move. This simple character has gone from a joke set originally in Smeargle, to a half-joke, half-experiment in Rool TAC, to a total joke… and one that captivates actual praise? If you want a good set in this ‘genre’ go read Lizard or VideoMan.EXE off the top of my head. This set is an insult to modern Make Your Move, ignorant of everything going on around it to do with coming to terms with what constitutes an in-smash set and some real breakthroughs in characterization, too arrogant to acknowledge the movesets posted directly around it. On a personal level, it sums up the toxic mindset held by inactive members of the old guard and pats them on the back for their fear of what’s new in Make Your Move. “I haven’t read any new sets, but the old ones were better!” A nostalgic travesty, in more ways than one.

Now then, with that done it's a lot easier to spark discussion! By throwing out broad generalizations such as "we can all cringingly remember that one," which can force the reader into an uncomfortable position where they're included in the "we" despite not agreeing, you're already making the first steps towards allowing for multiple mindsets!

Moving on: criticism is welcome, in fact, it can be one of the best ways to improve when delivered from a trusted friend or a respected authority. However, personal attacks are -never- helpful in commentary, though that's not to say they don't show up from time to time. A common insecurity among veteran posters is the length of one's comment. Everyone likes a nice, long, batch of praise or an equally extended dissertation on how one can improve, and there's no feeling quite like being the one to deliver on that deep-set need. But the false appearance of length can lead to a disappointing experience for the recipient, even if the commenter himself feels satisfied. Thus, the concept of "empty praise," "empty hate," and other such filler language such as stating "this move does X" without elaboration.

There's quite a bit of this in the above that was difficult to grey out in-context. Blanket statements such as "abhorrent new down special," which ADDRESS a concern without elaborating on it, add little. Comments of this nature on writing style are always merited, as that's something which varies entirely from person to person - what makes perfect sense to someone may as well be in code to another. Specifics are always welcome, if you can pin down just what was confusing about it.

But there IS quite a bit of good in this comment that's worth emulating. First of all, no one could come out wondering what the commenter's stance was - this was, very clearly, a negative comment. Even after removing a large chunk of the hostility, it'd still be impossible to come out thinking that this set would find its way onto their vote list. Even though some of the points raised are either unproductive (or, with a bit of interpretation, active hostility,) there's still quite a bit left over which deserves attention. It's true that the set in question -was- made as tribute to an MYM6 set, this can be considered the maker's goal. Did they achieve that goal? It's argued that they didn't, with the points that the spirit of the original has been altered: matchups serve a vastly different role, the moves themselves are rather samey, and the creative licenses which have been taken worsen the set as a whole. In addition, the legitimacy of the central concept has been called into question - can a set which consists nearly entirely of stealing abilities from its foes really work in this way? Or are they forever doomed to being a gimmick? This may be an example of simple ideological difference, something neither party is likely to sway on. And sometimes, you just have to let it slide.

To wrap it up, MYM can sometimes be a battleground, at times all it takes is a single spark to kick off a movement for or against an individual or an idea. For the newcomers out there, who this is likely to have been your first experience with MYM "Politics," you might want to invest in some battle armor and rose-colored glasses. When you give a comment on a set, remember that you're not just talking about a bunch of words on paper, there's someone behind those words, and they'll be sure to let you know how they feel. Stay positive, and best of luck to you all.

And as a footnote I know that I tend to ramble. I probably use more "filler" language than anyone else, which I made a point of criticizing in the above commentary, but hey, whatever keeps my fingers moving.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I believe the intended purpose here was to force the opponent to dash back and forth (which basically destroys their spacing and opens them wide for punishment) in order to dispel the passive damage. It doesn't really need to have any direct relation to the rest of Heracross' attacks, because Toxic is a tool that enables his pressure.

Yeah, you're right. After looking back on it, I see where he was probably going with it and I sort of regret that comment. Sometimes it takes some time for the real workings of a moveset to sink in; I probably should've given it more time before making a comment.

EDIT: As Agidius said, I should rethink the concept of commenting and how to distinguish between a bad comment and a good one.

 

[FrozenRoy]

I think that was a nice little bit about commentary, Agi.

 

[JOE!]

Guys, can I demand more critiques of pinsir, spiderman and kung boo?

Pls?

Pls?

Thnx


(Demanddemanddemand)

 

[Deleted member]

Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of TAC, not even when Rool initially posted it, but I couldn't bring myself to pass up the opportunity this comment presented. With all the various requests for commentary (or "critique," as seems to be the popular new term) it's worth the time to take a refresher course on what makes a good and bad comment. This one contains examples of both types! For reference, I've greyed out portions of the comment which I feel contribute little, if anything to critiquing the set, whether positive or negative.

I think the comment was all worthwhile just to see this analysis. You're right that certain parts of the comment were unnecessary, to be honest I did send it round the table a few times but I got little feedback on what I could or should remove, so this was actually a very helpful experience.

 

[Z1GMA]

No one puts playstyle sections at the start of their movesets, for good reason. It's counter-intuitive for the writer and reader, who have yet to write or read the set. To be cohesive, you should also not write a section at the end and put it at the start.

Very, very simple stuff that has been universally-accepted for ever. Lets not coddle the new guys purely on the basis they're new, I know you don't read sets anymore so I'll cut you some slack.

Image that you invite a random friend to your place, and you decide to play a little smash.
After a couple of matches, he ask you while at the Character Select Screen "Is this character fun? What can he do?"
One would probably describe the character in a very simple way to the friend, to give him just a small hint on how the character is like, right?

He trusts you, and he wants to know if the character is fun to play as.
He's not looking for in depth combos, frames, and stuff - just the character in general.

 

[Deleted member]

Image that you invite a random friend to your place, and you decide to play a little smash.
After a couple of matches, he ask you while at the Character Select Screen "Is this character fun? What can he do?"
One would probably describe the character in a very simple way to the friend, to give him just a small hint on how the character is like, right?

He trusts you, and he wants to know if the character is fun to play as.
He's not looking for in depth combos, frames, and stuff - just the character in general.

Yeah, I get what you mean, but that is mostly of the statistics section's paragraph. So you can tell your friend, "well, he's a fast middleweight, he has great air speed, good fall speed, and he has some quirks to him like this." But when it comes to learning the character, your friend would have to learn for themselves, which is where the playstyle comes in.

I respect why you ask. Just look at this set from MYM11, Beezwax. It is incredibly complex to move, but the statistics section is used to give an in-depth description of how it all works together in Smash Bros. In a way, putting a playstyle at the start is a bad idea also because it distracts from the important statistics section. The two are best at the start and end, because you get the basic gist of the character, then after the set you get the depth. You have to pace it; you wouldn't tell your friend everything all at once, you have to ease them into it. I totally invite more questions if you have them.

 

[Z1GMA]

Can you link me the movesets you've won with, daddy?

 

[Rychu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13604178&postcount=264

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14635345&postcount=736

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14297791&postcount=327

Smady won with the top 2, and came in second with the third link

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks Geto. I'm very humbled you'd want to see my winning sets, I hope you enjoy them.

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

​

​

"Do you think you can beat me?"​

​

The insidious genius known as Dr Robotnik. We all know him. We all know his wonderful mechanations that he rides into battle with.​

Well, screw you all! We're doing him mechless.​

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Rundown​

"Ouch! I think I gloated so hard I pulled a muscle!"​

​

Tall man. He's like, almost Ganondorf. And heavy too, fat bugger. He has lousy traction that sends him skidding all over the place, and somehow has a fast dashing speed to go with it. It's not quite Sonic speed, nor even Captain Falcon speed, but he's certainly the fastest fattest thing alive. His jumps, both of them, are utter garbage however. They're basically tools to change midair momentum or whatever, don't expect them to save any amount of your bacon.​

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Specials​

"Get a load of this!"​

Up Special / Wing Fortress​

Eggman snaps his fingers as a discus platform flits into existence below his feet. A beam of light then shines down on him from the top of the stage (it's coming from the Egg Carrier, which is flying above the brawl) and begins to levitate the discus upwards.​

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From this rising platform, Eggman can do absolutely anything he could do normally (including getting knocked off of it by attacks... so watch out for that)​

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It travels at a fairly slow speed, and does not stop until it leaves the screen, so you'll want Eggman to jump off of it at some point. There's some downtime between one disc being beamed offscreen, and another becoming available for Eggman's recovering needs.​

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Down Special / Scrap Brain​

Robotnik performs a gracious bow, which has absolutely nothing to do with what this input actually does... which is [summon an egg pawn].​

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One of these handsome bipedal gunners falls down from the top of the screen, landing directly behind the closest opponent. It cannot fly, it doesn't move, and it has 15% stamina, so it won't exactly last very long. Once it takes that amount of damage, it flashes red briefly, before self destructing. The explosion, which is relatively large, deals 25% damage and can KO at criminally low percents.​

​

Should it last long enough, the Egg Pawn will point a bazooka towards the foe and launch a single homing rocket toward them. It's basically a carbon copy of Samus' missile attack, though its damage and knockback are more akin to her super missile version. Rockets are launched once every 3 seconds, and do not affect Robuttnik himself, nor any other pawns he has summoned to the fray​

​

If you hold Down Special instead of tapping it, then Robotnik continues to bow whilst an egg flapper is summoned from the Egg Carrier. This one CAN fly. It'll fall from the top of the screen, up until the point you release B, where it will stop and hover until destroyed. These flying robots sadly do not come equipped with rockets, and instead rely on short range machine gun fire. Every 3 seconds, they aim towards the nearest foe, and let loose a stream of 5 bullets, which shoot forth 1.2 stagebuilder units before vanishing. Each bullet pushes the foe backwards and deals a meager amount - 1% damage.​

​

Neutral Special / Time Eater​

Pressing a big red button that he carries around for these occasions, Robotnik opens up a space time rift [represented by a glowing purple portal] directly in front of himself. The quickness of this move [the portal is quite small, despite it's appearance being brief] is sure to send the foe in front of him into a time-space rift. This warps them back to where they were 4 seconds ago, whereupon they relive that portion of their lives. Despite the foe living in the past, the rest of the brawl is living in the present, so everyone else is free to tag them with attacks and damage, which will be inflicted on the opponent the moment they end their 4 second re-enactment. They cannot be grabbed, and moves that inflict stun will only inflict stun at the end of the time warp. Things that have been sent into the past have to same sickly purple hue as the portal - in order to quickly identify them.​

​

You can also use this attack on projectiles, and even your own summons (even ones that have recently exploded). Though once your target has reached the present again, the residual 'time energy' makes them immune to this attack for a further 2 seconds. So you cannot trap foes in a groundhog day loop (even though that'd be an awesome concept for a moveset - money to the first man who wants to take on Phil Connors.)​

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Side Special / Eggmanland​

Robotnik motions his arm to point at... whatever happens to be in front of him, and his minions all take this as their cue to start moving. Any summoned robots advance towards the nearest opponent, with grounded robots walking, and flying ones hovering at a slower pace. You can repeat the input to halt the robots. And if you hold B instead of tapping it, you'll be able to move the nearest robot around manually using the analogue stick. You cannot make it attack on command, but your controlled robot will still attack every 3 seconds as scheduled.​

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​

Ground Attacks​

"You're no match for me!"​

Jab / Practical Problems​

Dr Ivo Robotnik swings a good old reliable spanner at the foe in front of his corpulent self. He only does it once before the jab ends, but at 6% damage and moderate fixed knockback that gets foes outta his face, one hit is all ol' egghead requires.​

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Since this is a spanner, it somehow magically repairs any minion you swing it at, restoring any stamina they had previously lost. Of course, it would probably be more useful to just let the minion explode.​

​

Forward Tilt / The Boot​

Eggman swings his large ungainly leg in front of him, booting the foe and knocking them into the air. The attack deals a paltry 5% damage, though the range and speed of it are adequate at least.​

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You can kick your grounded minions in order to boot them 1.4 stagebuilder units up in the air, where they hover for the slightest of seconds before falling back down. Use this, your spanner, and your up special platform in order to get that missile firing minion as far up into the air as you please.​

​

Down Tilt / Lanky Leg​

Another forceful kick, this time whilst squatting. The doc kicks rather like Ganondorf. The hitbox and knockback are somewhat useful if there happen to have any barrels on stage that need rolling. On things that don't roll, this attack deals 8% damage and light knockback downwards and away from Eggman.​

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Up Tilt / Signal​

Dr Eggman claps both hands above his head. Very quick, deals 6% damage, and knocks opponents lightly upwards.​

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Somewhat more usefully, this input acts as a signal for any minion who happens to be nearby. It will hurry towards Eggman, stand/hover in front of him, and then move around with Eggman for the next 3 seconds (i.e. until it next fires its weapon). Grounded robots won't be able to jump, so bear that in mind as you try to make use of your temporary meat-shield.​

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Dash Attack / Penguin King​

The lardy doctor flops to the ground on his belly, sliding forward a short distance before realising how absolutely stupid that all looked. The attack deals a nice 13% damage, and knocks opponents he crashes into, behind him (yeah it's weird knockback for a weird attack, don't ask). Essentially, it clears a nice path for him to escape through.​

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This attack also ends with Robotnik in the prone position, so you might wanna roll away or something..​

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Smashes​

"All systems - full power!"​

​

Forward Smash / Back Off​

Robotnik extracts a rather cartoony [yet still 4kids-unfriendly] gun from his pocket, and points it dead ahead. At full charge, the blaster deals 23% damage and KOs horizontally from 110%. At no charge - 15%, there is no knockback. Instead, the foe collapses into prone.​

​

The range of the blast, which can penetrate through multiple targets, is just under 2 stagebuilder units. It can also damage your own robots, and it can be reflected too.​

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Downward Smash / Crabmeat​

Crouching to the floor, and turning away from the audience, Eggman hastily constructs another minion for his team. The flurry of busiwork takes place as you charge the attack, so the minion itself is available as soon as you release the charge.​

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This little crab-bot, won't scuttle about (unless you use the Side Special, in which case you'll discover that it can actually jump. And it can wall cling indefinitely) but it will launch little orange exploding balls on an arc towards whatever foe happens to be closest. It can alter the trajectory of these bomblets at will, but it does have a maximum range of roughly 2 stagebuilder units. The bomblets do not explode on contact, but rather 3 seconds after being fired. They deal 15% damage and severe hitstun to anyone in their admittedly small blast radius.​

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If you hit the robot with any of your own attacks, it will instinctively retract it's claws, legs and eyes and curl up into a perfect metallic sphere, which can roll around much in the same way a barrel can be made to roll. Crabmeat will re-emerge and begin the attack once more after 3 seconds pass.​

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The level of charge that was committed to building the robot, correlates to how much stamina the thing has before it collapses to a pile of scrap. It starts as 15%, and can climb as high as 40% with enough of a charge. If the attack was fully charged, the crab-bot will be gifted with a constant reflector shield to deflect incoming projectiles. Note that I said deflect, and not reflect. The Crab Bot can actually manipulate its shield in order to deflect projectiles towards the nearest opponent. Even bullets and missiles from other robots can be redirected.​

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If you don't charge the attack at all, the hastily constructed metal pile of trash just explodes at your feet, dealing 15% damage and medium vertical knockback to Robuttnik, and anyone else nearby.​

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Upward Smash / Send in the Eggman Fleet​

Our nefarious doctorate holder crosses his arms across his chest and barks "Fire!". Immediately after the command, a laser is shot from the Egg Carrier (which I'll remind you is perpetually high above the stage), towards the ground directly in front of him. The laser is always fired at a 40 degree downward angle, and it is always shot from a location behind Robotnik, so the actual origin point of the laser depends on where the doctor himself stands.​

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Basically, you get a great big laser beam that spans from the ground to the sky, that is angled 40 degrees downwards. It deals between 16-26% damage, and knocks foes away violently at a 30 degree angle. The beam can and will hit the good doctor and his minions, so you absolutely need to shield, roll or dash away as soon as the command is given. Other than that small problem, the attack has no end lag - and feel free to use this attack whilst standing on your Up Special disc, so that you don't have to be right next to the target you want to hit.​

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Oh yeah, and reflect it off of a shielded crabmeat for added fun.​

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Aerials​

"Away! Before I make mincemeat out of you!"​

Neutral Aerial / Tumble​

Rather ungracefully, Robotnik tumbles around in midair, knocking foes in towards him with his spinning, multihit hitbox. The attack is somewhat larger than Eggman himself, and the hitbox lingers too, dealing 3 hits of 4% damage.​

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Forward Aerial / Hang Castle​

Robotnik swings his foot forward in a broad kicking arc. Like pretty much all his kicking attacks, this move has sheer range as its main selling point; it hits below and in front of the bald scientist making it a decent choice if madness takes you and you want to *gulp* approach the foe. The kick deals 14% damage and around 2 stagebuilder units worth of knockback down and away from the doctor. Don't forget, this applies to your robot minions too, if you feel like kicking one towards the opponent and watching it explode on them.​

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Backward Aerial / Cryptic Castle​

Pointing directly behind himself (his finger deals 8% damage and light downward knockback) Robotnik signals all of his robotic minions to move away from any nearby foes for the next 2 seconds. The order is pretty fast to give, and you can repeat it to stack the time the robots will run away for.​

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Down Aerial / Eggbomber​

Robotnik tucks his legs up by his chest and bombs down toward the ground, eggy rump first. It doesn't exactly deal much in the way of damage or knockback (10% damage and light sideways knockback), but it does benefit from having superarmor, giving him a free ticket back to terra firma after his extended trip in the air.​

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Up Aerial / Deja Vu​

Robotnik grabs at whatever foe or machine happens to be above him, and then holds tight, adding his fall speed to theirs for 2 seconds (or until he leaps away). If struck by an attack, he maintains his hold on the foe, so they'll be dragged along with him. So even though Robotnik looks perfectly spikeable, the foe may want to think twice about actually spiking him.​

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While a pretty humorously spiteful attack to whip out when a big final smash is going down in a FFA, he can also use this attack to grab onto any of his flying robots. His fatass weight will slowly drag them downwards, but it's otherwise a legitimate way of stalling around while waiting for your Up Special to refresh.​

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Grab-Game​

"I'm afraid you're coming with me!"​

A large robotic hand swoops down from the top of the screen, homing lightly towards whatever foe it happens to fly nearest to. If it ends up flying into the ground, or a wall, then that's too bad. And it can even be scared off by the foe attacking it, so it's not the most reliable of projectile grabs.

But if the hand actually snags someone, even in midair, it will drag them briskly towards Eggman. If you don't want that, you can input and hold Side Special at this point to take direct control of the hand, and make it fly wherever you please with foe in hand.

Eggman is free to perform other attacks, and to hit the grabbed opponent, but they will not take any knockback until the hand is destroyed via 20% damage. So you need to throw a big attack dealing at least 20% damage, in order to destroy the hand and send the foe flying away.

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Of course, the foe can also struggle free of the hand's grasp like any normal grab (alebit at twice the difficulty). So you might wanna damage them first...​

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Final Smash​

"Get a load of this!"​

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The good doctor summons a discus below his feet and is immediately flown offscreen. The Egg Carrier, which has been flying above the Brawl since the beginning, descends in the background. Once level with the brawl, it lets loose with a barrage of laser beams that fire directly towards random spots on the stage. Each beam deals 36% damage and nasty 60% KO knockback. They're short lasting beams however, so it's a bit of a crapshoot whether you'll hit anyone or not. Your minions do happen to stick around during the Final Smash, though they are just as susceptible to the major lasering that is going (and the Egg Carrier makes absolutely no attempt to not fire at any minions). After only 5 seconds of firing, the Egg Carrier is finished with its attack, and the egg is returned to the fray.

Now we'll see just who would win...​

 

[StaffofSmashing]

I've been working in an Eggman set based on his X Zone boss from Advance, but I got destroyed.

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

I've been working in an Eggman set based on his X Zone boss from Advance, but I got destroyed.

Feel absolutely free to keep going if you want - there can be multiple interpretations of Eggman. Imagine this as a mechless Eggman, then add on sets for X Zone Eggman, Green Hill Eggman, Wing Fortress Eggman...the list goes on. He's constantly switching machines, it's not like he fights in only one way!

 

[tirkaro]

ROBOTNIK:
As a longtime MYM fan, this set literally makes me sick. Heavyweight antagonists are a staple of the leadership, and it's not right for a banned MYMer to basically copy and paste the concept and call it their own. Hopefully Warlord will sue or something, because this is so wrong.
Basically Dave just shot himself in the foot. I don't know how much the rest of you know about MYM culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in the General Moveset Thread where you can become successful by being a hippo. If you screw someone over in MYM, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the SWF public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to join MYM on any forum, nor will they read any of MYM's sets. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Dave has alienated an entire market with this move. Dave, publicly apologize and delete this set or you can kiss your business goodbye.

I'm so sorry for this, I'll just continue working on my set right now

 

[Katapultar]

[collapse=Robotnik]Just when I thought you had given up, you actually make a nice comeback, as Eggman is both a surprisingly simple and decent set for a high-potential character, if at best. It also reads surprisingly well, but that might just be me, though I can say with utmost certainty that the presentation is refreshing. The Specials help sell the set for me a little, but I also like the comical nature behind kicking around your robots with your basic moves, which I sort of wish had a bit more audio-oomph to it like Eggman yelling angrily every 3 or so times he uses a melee attack. I actually like the otherwise cliched drag down U-air for this reason, though having Super Amour on this and the D-air reeks of some tackiness where the latter is reminiscent to something you've used in your previous sets.

If you were aiming for something really simple that's a bit of fun and easy to cook up, you certainly succeeded in that department; I already, to a degree, like this set similarly to how I like Ho-oh...

If you were aiming for more, however, I'd say that some of the moves could have a fair bit more meat to them (mainly the Specials, except the more-or-less fantastic Up Special), though it wouldn't be right to say that a high-potential character's moves should all be as complicated as possible as I doubt that's what you were aiming for. What I will say however, is that some identifiable flow could do the set wonders; the Up Special is an eggcellent base for Eggman and I get it works well with his campy game since a good deal of his moves home in on foes like his Grab and Side Spec minions, along with his U-Smash being a campy move, but...you also have some moves that encourage Eggman to be close to his opponent, 2 Specials to be precise: Time Eater seems out-of-place from almost every possible angle what with being taken from a random recent Sonic game, namely in conflicting with Eggman's machine theme to him not really being geared up to work with time despite the minor minion interaction. Side Special also seems to do nothing when you could just make Eggman's minions more intelligent. With all the mass of minions Eggman has throughout all the games he's appeared in, I would be perfectly fine with him pulling a Wily and having those two inputs replaced with the summoning of new robots; from what I remember in Sonic Heroes, there's quite a variety of robots you have to go up against, like that giant one that uses a hammer like the eagle king. Also, get ready for this: it's rare to see a throw-less grabgame these days (this one might even be the first of this contest, if memory serves me right), but that doesn't mean we'd love to see some throws, which could be used to command your robots and really a claw has soooooooooooooooooo much potential it'd be a crime not not establish it further. Robots being summoned behind enemies is also a bit conflicting with how you can kick them around since you have to get past enemies in order to do that and that's pretty awkward.

Overall, I like Eggman enough that if he was posted in MYM13, he'd be my favorite of yours. I enjoyed the simplicity while still paying some attention to other details like characterization, presentation ideas and what not, even though there's a whole lot more to Eggman and this was only scratching the surface. Hopefully you come back to us with a bit more of this, because it was a fun ride.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Really brief comic/critique on Dr. Eggman!

Wow. Wow-ha-how. This is great! I would play as him if he has this moveset. From the looks of it, a good fighter would use his minions and his minion commanding attacks for some havoc wreaking. "Stay away from Bowser, attack Pikachu!"

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't this Junahu's Sonic 06 Eggman?

 

[Katapultar]

....


...............



Did I just comment on a re-post of a set made by another MYM'er?

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

I've been given permission to retool the set and do the organization - for all technical purposes, it's a joint, though I don't know if he wants his name attached.

Posted for 3 reasons: to give the guy a modern set, to gauge how well a return to movesetting would go down and to see how much creator bias comes into play (which judging from reports about the reaction of you/a few select others, the answer is very much so)

 

[Deleted member]

There are no rules forbidding a repost, if you have permission, it's simply misleading.

Unless you work for the NSA, I sincerely doubt you have any "reports." The only place I've discussed the set is on Skype, this morning, with one person.

I have spare time right now and this seems like a good time to catch up. Watch this space.

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

Expressely done for the purpose of the last point -- contrary to your attempts to lock me out of every aspect of MYM entirely, I still talk to MYMers who use mainchat. (and there you go editing your comment to make this look better)

 

[Junahu]

....


...............



Did I just comment on a re-post of a set made by another MYM'er?

Just so you have some better context; Dave and I challenged one another to write movesets for Robotnik/Eggman in 3 hours. It's true that the moveset here is primarily my handiwork, though it was inspired by my conversations with Dave, and my impressions on what, mechanically, he would enjoy seeing in a moveset. So I thoroughly accept this as being a joint moveset, albeit one I would have liked to spend more time making.

 

[darth meanie]

I only skimmed over Robotnik; I'm strongly concerned that the Neutral Special is just plain overpowered, on the level of nearly being a win button. Forcing the opponent to relive four seconds without being able to change their behavior is incredibly punishing, as it should be trivial for a player paying attention to avoid any attacks they performed and rack up absurd damage. It's also plain unfun to be hit by, as it takes control away from the opponent for four seconds, forcing them to sit back and watch. I think time controlling projectiles and minions has more potential for interesting possibilities while staying balanced, and I think the move could have been a lot better if it did not directly affect players and focused on that aspect.

I also wanted to mention that I scrolled through and thought Vanellope was actually a pretty cool set with some very interesting ideas. Glitching and teleporting through fighting has a lot of potential, and it hints at greatness a lot. I was really disappointed that the set was so brief and didnt give me as many details as I would have liked. I'd love to see this set more fleshed out.