Lucina: Match-Up Discussion (UPDATE: Kirby!)

[A2ZOMG]

By that statement, is it safe to conclude that the Dash Breaker clanks with the fireballs?

I was more insinuating that Mario's Fast Fireballs are safely spammable to the point where you aren't getting as practical zoning breaking applications from it in this matchup, whereas pressuring Mario's shield with default would probably be more useful.

 

[Silverfox117]

Having an answer to tools =/= your tools automatically work 100% of the time. You have to space CORRECTLY, factoring your opponent also has the ability to move and adjust spacing and make reads.

Marth and Lucina realistically can't wall out or rush down Mario to nearly the same extent as in previous games due to raw frame data nerfs. It just doesn't happen that way when their aerials almost universally got slower and acquired slightly more landing lag. Mario isn't a slow character, and while most of his spacing tools are definitely not very strong, his B-air and F-smash are both good, and if they're spaced correctly, they aren't things you are simply shutting down on reaction. Mario can also reset stage control or set up edgeguard situations with FLUDD, which actually pushes people respectable distances in this game rather than just stalling them. And the point is Mario actually has some tools he can depend on for evening the score. He most definitely doesn't win neutral as his ground game is limited, but Mario does in fact have a strong ability to capitalize on predictable recoveries, which means he can be rewarded well for reads in this matchup.

You're sorta overrating Shield Breaker for recovery. It didn't even get used extremely often in Brawl, and DI isn't what it used to be in this game, meaning outside of living at really high percents, it doesn't have as many high recovery applications as it used to, which makes it more often actually relatively easy for Mario to harass with FLUDD, Fireballs or Cape. Dolphin Slash is strong for recovery, but can be harassed with fireballs before you get in position to Up-B, or with lingering hitboxes like Mario's N-air, which is strong for setting up gimps. And Mario's Cape has similar range to Marth and Lucina's aerials, making it a guess to outspace it after Mario sets up FLUDD edgeguards. Mario doesn't need to be a god at this matchup to gimp Marth or Lucina when their recoveries by default have to usually first get past FLUDD. Sure, it requires some level of basic reads, but the situations where he can gimp either character are not extremely difficult for him to set up outside of finding the opportunity to land a hit on stage.

You are overrating fludd way too much. It still is garbage for mutiple reasons. You need to charge it. It doesn't push all that far. You aren't going to gimp Lucina that way as she will position herself below the stage to recover making full use of Dolphin slashs range.

Cape range is a lot shorter than what you think actually. I have been testing it. Lucina's fair will out range Mario's cape

Basically you are saying that this is a close match up because Mario could outplay the Lucina by making reads. That alone is not a 60-40 match up dude. If the player has to consistently out play to even get an advantage it isn't a good match up at all.

Let us look somewhere else and use this logic. Melee Bowser has a close match up to fox, because i can read what the fox is doing and hit him with a smash attack for easy kills. Sounds legit no, but sadly that isn't how it works. The match is terribly in foxes favor due to him having every tool accessible to completely destroy Bowser.

This is the case here. I know you are a Mario player and you might be good, but if you have to consistently out play the Lucina then it isn't a good match up. If I am required to make tons of cape and fludd plays due to me being limited as everything else i do is being punished by Lucina because she is standing right in front of me then it is not a good match up. I hope you understand what I am saying with this.

If both Mario and Lucina where equally skilled the Lucina will win 7 games out of the ten. She has way too many tools accessible to her in every situation while Mario has like 3.

 

[Shaya]

Eh, dash breaker would still likely be the optimal choice.
Down tilt, fair, nair and jab are still going to be able to be used against your shield with some degree of impunity. You're going to be playing a game that avoids those moves, which the two can rush down with dash breaker.

The moves transcended, so it doesn't clash with anything, meaning it'll lose to all projectiles during it's flight. How high do Mario's fireballs hit and are you doing them out of short hop? If the height of them is shorter than our short hop, we would be able to short hop dash breaker over them and hit you (the hitbox of that move really has no down falls, it hits below him).

I think ideally design wise, Lucina would run evenish with Mario. But I think his safety on shield, lack of answers to down tilt, and still some issues with forward air will still set the pace in our favour. But I haven't really seen or played against Mario's customs, so I'm not sure.

 

[Sillybananas]

I've played a very capable Mario in FG who stuck around for plenty of games, here's what I gathered.

Most of his attacks have little ending lag, esp. compared to Lucina's aerials. If Mario whiffs a move, the window for punishment is surprisingly small. Meanwhile when you whiff a fair (esp if it hits his shield) he has a great opportunity to utilt, uair, or even usmash depending on how close you are.

Mario's grab game is strictly superior, having dthrow to set up anything at low percents, and having bthrow to eventually kill with.
Because of the new gravity it's very easy for dthrow to put you in a terrible position nearly everytime; You can't defend with dair and counter may be too predictable. You will almost always be put in a position where you have to defend with no option of counter attack i.e. jump away or air dodge

Lucina has a pretty easy time spacing him, but in all fairness Mario will probably be spacing you with fireballs as long as he can. Luckily fireballs are bad in this game, and leave him more vulnerable, even on hit. Expect most fireballs to be retreating ones or recovering from height ones. With Mario having little priority in his aerials, fair can win the game single handedly.

I feel like Mario has the edge due to his faster aerials and amazing jab/grab game. He will rarely need to use specials, and they aren't threatening for the most part anyway. I had a hard time playing him myself, but it was never one-sided. An easy 60-40 favoring Mario

All in all a very close MU.

 

[KenMeister]

Wow, Mario having a winning MU against Marth/Lucina? Man, how long I've waited for this. lol
Mario finally gives his worst matchups in the past the revenge they deserved, bout' time they had it coming.

 

[Silverfox117]

Wow this MU is very split. There is me and someone else who thinks Lucina completely obliterates Mario, someone who thinks it is a close match up, and then you have some people who think it is in Mario's favor. Honestly I stand by my decision that Lucina has every tool she needs for this match up while Mario is lacking very many.

 

[Locuan]

Lucina has a pretty easy time spacing him, but in all fairness Mario will probably be spacing you with fireballs as long as he can. Luckily fireballs are bad in this game, and leave him more vulnerable, even on hit. Expect most fireballs to be retreating ones or recovering from height ones. With Mario having little priority in his aerials, fair can win the game single handedly.

Or f-tilt, or jab. If Mario spams fireballs, you can just stay on your little corner cancelling all of them. If Mario gets impatient and comes toward you to attack you are already at the advantageous position. There is no point in rushing Mario down. You risk what you mentioned in the next quote:

I feel like Mario has the edge due to his faster aerials and amazing jab/grab game. He will rarely need to use specials, and they aren't threatening for the most part anyway.

If you are in his grab range or in his jab range, you are not spacing correctly. Period.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, dash breaker would still likely be the optimal choice.
Down tilt, fair, nair and jab are still going to be able to be used against your shield with some degree of impunity. You're going to be playing a game that avoids those moves, which the two can rush down with dash breaker.

The moves transcended, so it doesn't clash with anything, meaning it'll lose to all projectiles during it's flight. How high do Mario's fireballs hit and are you doing them out of short hop? If the height of them is shorter than our short hop, we would be able to short hop dash breaker over them and hit you (the hitbox of that move really has no down falls, it hits below him).

I think ideally design wise, Lucina would run evenish with Mario. But I think his safety on shield, lack of answers to down tilt, and still some issues with forward air will still set the pace in our favour. But I haven't really seen or played against Mario's customs, so I'm not sure.

Short hopped Fast Fireballs seem pretty safe against Dash Breaker unless I missed something. The way I see it is the utility of pressuring shield with default outweighs the risk of getting Dash Breaker blocked in this matchup where Marth and Lucina's gameplan against Mario isn't strictly about getting in, but forcing him to fight at midrange where Mario has to take more risks.

With customs, Mario's Fast Fireballs and Gust Cape give Mario conservative but safe options for setting the pace of neutral. Mario can try to carefully play a slow spacing game with the massive range on Gust Cape's windbox and spammable Fast Fireballs that gradually pushes his opponent away from him to gain stage control with these moves. Of course, Mario isn't doing a lot of damage with this strategy unless he drops it briefly to make reads, so the matchup still isn't in his favor. But my observations of how the two custom moves work suggest to me it's realistically safe enough to be a viable gameplan where Mario actually has control when it allows him to really slow down approaches and reset positioning outside of standard footsies range.

The low damage on these spacing tools can be compensated for by Explosive Jump Punch, which evidently seems to still be a 3 frame move, and it does 21 damage. The main tradeoff is some recovery distance, though given that Gust Cape gives back Mario Cape Stalling and other things, it's not much to be upset about. This solves one of Mario's other problems of having very inconsistent punish options at low percents. Nearly 30 guaranteed damage off a D-throw isn't a joke. I'll need more testing to confirm whether or not Mario can combo into the move at around 100% when the move will actually KO.

With customs, I see this matchup as 55/45 Lucina. Her ideal case scenario in neutral is still more rewarding and doesn't inherently risk a lot, especially since Lucina can pick customs that make her harder to gimp, but Mario actually somewhat forces Lucina to play on some of his terms, and he does get an extra decent damage/KO option that isn't extremely difficult to land, not to mention he suffers considerably less from juggles and edgeguards with proper use of Gust Cape stalling in midair.

Without customs? If you guys want to say 65/35 Lucina, I'll go with that. But realistically I see Lucina and Marth's default recoveries as being predictable enough that Mario actually has a very real possibility of turning it around with gimps. Keeping in mind that he's really not walled out to nearly the same extent as he was before. I'm not trying to suggest the matchup is close, mind you, and like in any unfavorable matchup, Mario has to outplay Lucina to win. I'm saying Mario has a win condition that is far from unfeasible when buffs to FLUDD actually do in fact make a very noticeable difference. It's the difference between just annoying and delaying a recovery, as opposed to actually forcing the opponent to move to a less favorable position where they also often visibly lose distance.

 

[Locuan]

Alright, so now it is officially the weekend and on this time frame we will look back on both previous match-ups and discuss anything that needs to be added. The new Match-up discussion will be posted on Monday.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Going back to Greninja's MU, some points that may or may not have been addressed, seeing as I had some matches with a friend and his competent Greninja.

-Shadow Sneak is easily Countered if you can see it coming.
-Greninja's up smash is a double edged (water) sword for him. It does cover good range but is counter prone.
-Greninja's high mobility will outpace most of Lucina's moves, making it difficult to attack directly.
-Greninja's own counter is very unsafe, probably unsafer than Lucina's. Throw bait and side smash bait.

I'm not very good against Greninja, so these points are coming from lost matches. I'm pretty sure they have been addressed already, but hey, contribution.

 

[RNH]

Can we discuss some Little Mac here? Mac vs Marthcina is a MU I'm intrigued about.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth and lucina play footsies. Mac is the god of footsies. Mac wins.

We done?

 

[Locuan]

Eh, I knew this was bound to happen but I seriously did not expect it to be so soon...
Anyways, it's Marth Week... BEGIN!

 

[Moydow]

well we already know Marth wins, the question is by how much.
Marth has tippers and is safer on block. He's also taller, therefore has slightly more range, so Lucina is going to be right in his tipper range if she's trying to hit Marth while also spacing him out.
Lucina maybe gets more joy out of Shield Breaker and Dancing Blade, but that's about it. (and assuming customs are allowed you're probably going to be using Dashing Assault instead of Shield Breaker anyway)
But at the highest level of play they're going to be almost identical. Not a mirror match, but still very close.
I'm not really sure what number to give this one, so I'm just going to be awkward and say 52-48 Marth seriously though. It's not 50-50, and it's not going to be 60-40 since they're too similar, but I'm not sure if Marth will have so much of an advantage at the top level for it to be 55-45 either. Maybe he does - I'm not sure, and I'm open to correction.

 

[M@v]

Honestly its too hard to judge this matchup yet. Lucina probably wins on 3ds because its so hard so space properly. I'd be shocked if Lucina wins this on wii u, unless her hit properties grant her special combos or chains marth doesn't have on her.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Yeah, this goes to Marth or at best is a pseudo mirror match. Marth has the tipper and is safer on block than Lucina. Barring that, they have the exact same tools. I won't judge console limitations in this MU, but that's me.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I think at high level, with customs involved, where dash breaker doesn't seem to have any differences between them (?), while shieldbreaker does, it's going to be mostly a 50/50 game I'd say.

I don't know if that is how it will go in tournament though. Assuming that Marth is 55:45 in every scenario (it's a fair statement to make), then the fact that Marth's coming out on top 10% more often could result in a lot of "won the battles" but she'll always be in a losing position throughout the war.
So I suppose the point I'm making here is that by design they're very close to even, but having that minor edge all the time could very well result in, over the course of a 2 or 3 stock match, Marth being heavily in the lead, assuming both players are of even skill.

There's no pull or give towards Lucina besides potentially harder punishes out of shield in closer quarters.

I tend to think of match ups in two ways, difficulty and design. By design, this match up is even/slight M favour, but in terms of difficulty, it would have to be one of Lucina's harder ones (although it would be hard for Marth too for similar reasons; there's a saying from the Brawl days - Marth's hardest match up is himself because he destroys himself harder than any other character is capable). That tipper forward tilt killing you before any of your attacks, or our forward smash killing you like 40% earlier than any of your attacks is huge, and it's a fear that Lucina will have to deal with in a way Marth won't have to. Marth can space around your smashes and not have to fear anything else from your repertoire in neutral.

 

[M@v]

From Lucina's standpoint, its a matter of "I can hit him but he can tipper me even harder". Lucina will probably want to rush down in this mu if at all possible to prevent marth from properly spacing tippers while still getting her full power. If she fights a max range battle, she's going to lose out in the long run.

 

[Shaya]

Well, having used Lucina as my personal replacement in Marth dittos so friends and folks have a chance, I always find myself in this very awkward scenario.
I'm at 80%, and they're at 120%+. They can kill me with a Forward Smash, yet my only chance is a hard read Up Smash or punish to finish it. Suddenly I have to play extremely respectful because I'm actually in a losing position because I allowed myself to get hit to a percent where Marth suddenly has kill options while I do not. One dancing blade punish from Marth at that stage and it's now two to three moves he can kill me with, while I'm still down to one.

Having the neutral be in marth's favour all the time by default ****ing sucks. Having Marth have the advantage in neutral when he's actually losing by a noticeable percent? Completely unfair to the match up as well.

Still, challenging. Power shield punishes is obviously my go to for out playing any character I'm so comfortable with their frames on.

 

[Zano]

marth does everything lucinca does but with better range and chances at way earlier kills. Just gonna simplify it to that cuz I'm too lazy to say more, 60-40. Not factoring in customs

 

[Locuan]

From Lucina's standpoint, its a matter of "I can hit him but he can tipper me even harder". Lucina will probably want to rush down in this mu if at all possible to prevent marth from properly spacing tippers while still getting her full power. If she fights a max range battle, she's going to lose out in the long run.

This is what I had thought about as well. However, being in a such aggressive state will be difficult. Especially in this game that rewards defense heavily. And Marth can definitely capitalize greatly on a read.

better range

Has this been proven anywhere? I have not seen conclusive evidence.

 

[Zano]

Yeah, easiest way to see yourself is to go to battlefield and try hitting the cpu on the platform with her fsmash, something she can't but marth can. Just one example but it gets the point around.

Edit: whats more is that marth hitting someone with his fsmash this way tippers

 

[alandaband]

My theory is that:

1. Bad Lucina players > bad Marth players
2. Good Marth players > good Lucina players

I've seen Marth's tippers kill between 60-80% whereas Lucina kills closer at the 110% area. Good Marth players who know how to space properly should have the advantage over Lucina.

I have yet to try this against a Marth player but two strategies I can think of is to either a. out-camp Marth or b. get aggressive and not to respect Marth's spacing. While the latter strategy usually puts Lucina at a disadvantage in most MUs, it might work against Marth.

 

[Zano]

it won't work against marth, he thrives on punishing aggression. If you don't respect his space you're going to regret it.

 

[alandaband]

it won't work against marth, he thrives on punishing aggression. If you don't respect his space you're going to regret it.

I haven't played against many Marth players. Can you explain what options are available for Marth to punish aggressive players with?

 

[Locuan]

I haven't played against many Marth players. Can you explain what options are available for Marth to punish aggressive players with?

In reality, as long as you react correctly, you can punish with a move you desire. However, there are certain moves you would like to use to punish above others. Anyways, Marth has moves for out of shield options, like up-b and side-b, you could also shield grab, etc. If the opponent misses an attack, depending on the lag that the move gives them, you can reply with a smash attack. There are a lot of examples, but in reality they depend a lot on the situation that you find yourself in. And that comes with experience.

Regardless, if you would like, you can set a detailed scenario and I can try to answer how I would reply to that.

 

[Locuan]

Double post... but this is an update.
Alright so the discussion period for Marth is over and we will now look back to the previous match-ups until Monday.

 

[Satan-]

I haven't played against many Marth players. Can you explain what options are available for Marth to punish aggressive players with?

Dtilt, short hop fair, dancing blade, and counter depending on how opponent is approaching can all punish overly aggressive players.

 

[KingTeo]

This is a pretty interesting match up considering they're so similar. I'd have to say that it's pretty even but Marth gets the slight advantage under the circumstances that both players are playing at an optimal and equal skill level and both players have perfect executions.

On the 3ds it's a little harder for Marth to use proper spacing, but that's more of a user-error and shouldn't be counted against the character himself.

I'd say 4-6 in Marth's favor. Maybe even 4.5-5.5 in Marth's favor.

454

 

[Shaya]

I think in reality, without customs around, it's probably 65-35 Marth's favour, if not worse. Customs help even it out considerably as dash assault can be played to its strength and doesn't benefit one character over the other. But even then... yuck...
It's almost impossible not to trade hits in Marth dittos, it's what makes them stupidly fun, scary and dumb at the same time, when the power of a tipper that looms over your general reach that can kill well before your current actions; I've probably played tens of thousands of Marth dittos and this dynamic of "any miss use of commitment is perfectly spacing yourself for getting killed as early as half the percent I'm currently at" is what defines it, and when one character has that while the other does not... Lucina feels excruciatingly gimped.

If you're a better Marth player, than you can out play your opponent with Lucina no problem, you're likely a better spacer and can continually punish/out do them in such a way that the tipper advantage is nullified. But the moment I think of two even-ish players, I see almost no hope for her.

I legitimately would not be surprised if Marth ends up being one of if not Lucina's worst match up in the game. The risk/reward factor at both character's optimal play is just disgustingly skewed in Marth's favour.

If you experience this match up just once in tournament I would not be surprised if you swear off it forever. Enough Marth mains past and present outright refuse to play Marth dittos in tournament because of how volatile they are due to tippers; I really cannot see why you would want to put yourself through it ever when you cannot do the same thing back to him.

And on a personal level, Marth dittos would have to be close to my most played match up throughout my entire smash history. I decided early on I would play it in tournament and that I refuse on my pride to ever lose one. it takes a lot of work to be confident enough to play a match up that is ultimately extremely close to gambling 50/50s with your stock on every action you take.

 

[Locuan]

Main post updated with Marth information.
This week we are against the Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom, Peach!

 

[CandyCakes]

For peach beware of her dash attack because it'll put her in a position where it'll be hard for her to attack. Try not to use laggy attacks because then ull get hit by peach bomber or fair.

 

[Zero Suit Senpai]

Hey all, chiming in from the Peach forums. My experience with this matchup is rather limited, but I figure I might be able to say a few things...

Barring turnips, you tend to outrange Peach. So I feel like this matchup depends on how well the Lucina player can space Peach out with her normals. Lucina's utilt, ftilt, jab, fsmash, and shorthop nair/fair can punish a Peach who is floating low and trying to use aggressive aerials (as so many like to do).

In air-to-air situations Lucina's aerials outrange Peach's, with the exception of Peach's fair which has massive range but a rather laggy startup. If the Peach player gets greedy and goes for one you can quickly shorthop nair or fair to hit her during its startup. In other air situations (if the Peach is nair-happy, for example), it's just a matter of out-spacing Peach. Peach's nair is extremely fast, doesn't really lag at the end, and has a lot of priority, but none of that matters if she's not in range

A few sidenotes: don't be too scared of Peach landing on you with her dair. Your usmash flat beats it. A lot of Peach players are used to her dair beating out anti-air's during her landing, but this is not the case for Lucina. Usmash her and laugh at her for trying.

Also, don't forget that Peach has toad as a counter move. Though it's not the quickest counter in the world, it still needs to be respected, as Peach can punish obvious dash attacks or tilts/fsmashes with it. Toad can surprise you if you aren't expecting him, and he kills at around 120+, so it's something work keeping in mind.

Speaking of counters, get used to the animation of Peach's fair so you can counter it every time. In general, Peach's fair is an incredible kill move, but it's slow startup means that she usually can't combo into it. It's massivo hitbox and long startup animation (Peach raises her hand to her head, removes her crown from her head, and then swipes at you) means that you can counter it quite confidently.

Oh, also watch out in air-to-ground situations when landing against Peach as her usmash is particularly brutal. If the Peach player positions herself right her usmash will hit you before any of your aerials can, perhaps barring dair (which given my limited experience with this MU seems to trade with usmash, but perhaps it would win if the Lucina spaces really well; but Lucina's dair is risky to land with for others reasons [mondo lag afterwards]).

If you get anti-air sweetspotted by Peach's usmash, you probably die. It kills at dumb early percents, and Lucina is not particularly heavy. I killed my friend (who plays as Lucina) with an anti-air usmash at 80% the other day.

That's all I got! I hope it's helpful to someone

 

[Dark.Pch]

Respect this character when I have a turnip in hand. You can not swing coming in at me trying to get a hit. You only go for this if Peach wants to be air happy. Even then you have to be careful cause of her turnip/nair/fair follow it. If you are gonna challenge this. You best be on point catching that turnip with an air attack. and then hitting me with an attack before mines comes out. I saw the risk/reward is not in your favor for this.

If you swing coming at me or trying to space a lot. Peach is really good at punishing your wiffed moves and landing. Also Peach has great movement with her QFR (quick float release). So I can quickly move in and out as if I am wavedashing. And you guys know what the purpose of wavedashing is in melee. To bait a reaction and then punish. Also being hard to read as to when I will strike. So this will a turnip in my hand is really dangerous for you to challenge dude to her spacing game (and Marth) are not something they can do like Marth did in brawl.

When Peach no turnip in hand, your goal in to stay in her face and not let me get one at all. Space your tilts and air attacks in my blind spot. While is Out of Nair range in the air or ground. Peach can't do a thing to challenge any of your moves unless you get to readable and I dish toad. Another move you need to respect in this game. Really the one that puts you to sleep. That can be your stock. Good spacing and weaving in and out in her blind spot is where you get your damage and get her off stage. While you are good at edgeguarding.

When she has you on shield, RESPECT THE CHARACTER AND DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO PUSH A BUTTON ON HER. She has some scary pressure and frame traps on shield. If she has a turnip She can TLC (Turnip lag cancel) Which is me doing an air attack and instantly canceling the animation to a turnip toss. Doing this on a spaced shield is something you don't wanna challenge. Here is something I said in a thread about her TLC so you can understand her mix ups.

One of the ways you can use TLC is for pressure. You can nair/fair to a TLC. If the turnip hits at low %, on most characters, you can get a Downtilt if they don't block. Nice frame trap I like to due when people sleep on the range. Or at higher % you can Z grab to floating air attacks, or catch it with a short hoped air attack.

"When you have all this down, its time to mix **** up. Once you have your opponent condition to Block the TLC, you can do an air attack spaced like fair/nair, and then run back to a reverse jump cancel throw. to snip a roll or an approach. Mix and match this to make your turnip game insane. But that is not all you can add into it.

You can Dair a shield and move behind them to a Z drop. If it hits, you can Zgrab it or grab it with an air attack. if they shield, mix it up with TLC and reverse jumcp cancel throw.

Now that you have that down, lets add some movement to that. Use the quick realse floating to the ground to quickly move/stop your dash. I call usually call it a persudo wave dash but I think I might start calling it quick float release (QFR) Now with this it makes it hard for your opponent to tell what you gonna do. So add this with all that I just said I and you will be hela confusing. Along with a sick turnip game. if you are really good with recatching turnips, it save you the trouble of having to get another one and your neutral game being on point. This is a good way to stay close to the enemy and be safe.

You have alot of frame traps and set ups like my dtilt one. You can also airdodge to this and instantly cancel the ledge. This is good to do against moves like Paluneta's Reflecter. You air dodge right throw it downward and TLC to get a free punish. Its really good to get close to."

See what I put in red? That's another reason why you don't really wanna be swinging a lot. I can do this and punish your landing. I'll said it again. Respect me when I have a turnip in my hand. I'm Dangerous.

You wanna take your time in the match up and wait till she no longer has a turnip in hand before trying to get something started. Peach can punish you hard for swinging at her with a turnip. And can even force a shield if you do it at the wrong times. Giving her a chance to start her shield pressure. Her pressure game outside of turnips us usually spaced nairs to Spaced Dtilts. Mixing and matching spaced bairs and dairs. She also has the option of spacing Fairs while short hopping and auto canceling it. So Be aware of that. Same with Bair. And my moves are safe on shield. Respect me on shield once again.

With all of this Peach can make it really hard for you to get a good hit on her. Really cause of her QFR and Buffed spacing along with TLC. Which is why you have to take your time vs Her. Once you get in then you can space your moves, rekt her blind spot and do good edgeuards. Even when she is over you, you win the fight. Though there is one thing I should state.

If I have a turnip in my hand and you hit me, I can break out the hit stun with a turnip and then punish you for it at certain%. or break out of hitstun and toss the turnip down to cover my landing of you try to harass me in the air. You can go nutz when I don't have one.

I really seriously hate to give match up rations on characters that I have not really played on high level. Cause that's is what is most important. Though learning how to deal with average play is also important if you even wanna make it to high level players in tournament. But I am gonna say this is not a winning battle for her due to what I stated. She really has no solid options to slow me down and my spacing. Which forces her to take her time getting in while being safe. She has to commit to every air attack she throws at me. So here is a basic rundown you should follow

-Take your time when I have a turnip.
- Run me down when I don't
- If you have me on shield. take Full advantage of that and don't you let me get away
- Get me off the stage and keep me out.
- Punish my landings or stay near me when I land so I can't get a turnip.

But the most important thing I will say is to not let me get a turnip at all. Avoid this any chance you get.

 

[Locuan]

Discussion for Peach is now complete, for the weekend we will focus on previous match-ups that were discussed.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, a little late, but I think the match up won't really show any solid advantage to either character, I think they both have all the tools necessary to fight fairly, with Peach having great damage output/true combos, but Lucina having solid mobility options both horizontally/vertically. It's always been a baitey/spacing match up, which tends to go towards the swordsmen, but Peach in this game is not a joke, her fast strong smashes seem to get me nearly every time, they kill ludicrously low for her class.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm not sure how easy of a time She would have to get in on Peach. She can be fast but I think what is important is the Difficulty of getting in and a slow hit. Sonic and Falcon were fast in brawl. Yet Peach won those match ups for reasons. Speed is not everything.

If you can tell me some ways she can get in well through her spacing and QFR movement without having a hard time or having to commit so much, Then I would say its an even fight.

I would like to know so I can know what to be aware of when fighting this character. Just like I provided ways Peach can give her a hard time.

 

[Shaya]

Walk + jab, full hop fair (you don't have moves that beat that from above or below it, nor the grounded mobility to punish it or capitalise on it). Back air and ftilt are things which "take charge" in a lot of scenarios. For what it's worth, I think Peach is a stronger character this game, so matches will still likely favour her (undecided on Marth, I think as both are spacing characters, tippers are pretty crucial), but I don't fear Peach's stuff, I fear getting heavily out traded because of her damage output / similar range (or better range) in certain scenarios/moves.

I would say that out-trading fear exists for Peach as well (and was crucial to her troubles in Brawl when Marth was a better killer than her). I would say without solid/strong kill moves beyond Smashes (Up Smash OoS may be the best bet, I'm not sure what moves you have/spacings which make this a guaranteed punish though), Lucina will be dealing with the reverse scenario from Brawl where the damage dealing is fine/equitable, but as for Marth I'm primarily killing Peach with tippered aerials (or shield drop punishes which are mostly the same between them), so eh, not killing Peach at 110% with up air or 120-130% with back air is pretty awful for her when you're killing from 100% onwards in a few ways.

In terms of being less committing on the character than you're used to seeing, DB1 in the air has a lot less lag than used on the ground and has frame advantage on hit in the air (unlike in Brawl), with this we can do "short hop double aerials" in a way that does give a semblance of zoning/being less telegraphed in the air that isn't easy to get around.

I also don't know if you've played the match up before against dash assault, but I feel Peach would have to give a lot of respect to Lucina who's using it. The attack itself outranges/disjoints your entire moveset and is Brawl Falco-Side B range/speed, I know you can cancel floats rather quickly, but you aren't able to handle this move by trying to beat it with a hitbox (other than turnips) so you're forced to be able/ready to shield all the time in a neutral-ish situation. Any time you're in the air at any distance or pull a turnip, dash assault will rush you down.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Peach prolly wins. Thats all really. Reasons should be quite obvious

 

[Dark.Pch]

Walk + jab, full hop fair (you don't have moves that beat that from above or below it, nor the grounded mobility to punish it or capitalise on it). Back air and ftilt are things which "take charge" in a lot of scenarios. For what it's worth, I think Peach is a stronger character this game, so matches will still likely favour her (undecided on Marth, I think as both are spacing characters, tippers are pretty crucial), but I don't fear Peach's stuff, I fear getting heavily out traded because of her damage output / similar range (or better range) in certain scenarios/moves.

I would say that out-trading fear exists for Peach as well (and was crucial to her troubles in Brawl when Marth was a better killer than her). I would say without solid/strong kill moves beyond Smashes (Up Smash OoS may be the best bet, I'm not sure what moves you have/spacings which make this a guaranteed punish though), Lucina will be dealing with the reverse scenario from Brawl where the damage dealing is fine/equitable, but as for Marth I'm primarily killing Peach with tippered aerials (or shield drop punishes which are mostly the same between them), so eh, not killing Peach at 110% with up air or 120-130% with back air is pretty awful for her when you're killing from 100% onwards in a few ways.

In terms of being less committing on the character than you're used to seeing, DB1 in the air has a lot less lag than used on the ground and has frame advantage on hit in the air (unlike in Brawl), with this we can do "short hop double aerials" in a way that does give a semblance of zoning/being less telegraphed in the air that isn't easy to get around.

I also don't know if you've played the match up before against dash assault, but I feel Peach would have to give a lot of respect to Lucina who's using it. The attack itself outranges/disjoints your entire moveset and is Brawl Falco-Side B range/speed, I know you can cancel floats rather quickly, but you aren't able to handle this move by trying to beat it with a hitbox (other than turnips) so you're forced to be able/ready to shield all the time in a neutral-ish situation. Any time you're in the air at any distance or pull a turnip, dash assault will rush you down.

"Walk + jab, full hop fair (you don't have moves that beat that from above or below it, nor the grounded mobility to punish it or capitalise on it)."

A turnip would have to disagree with you there. Mixed in with TLC. That is the point of having a turnip in hand. I can't do anything without it to get in safe. You can not really space a move and dip like you could in brawl with Marth. So if she short hops a fair, I can hit her on her landing. or before/after she swings. What would happen here is She would either have to use her second jump to try and get some distance, or space a move. But that second jump gives me time to abuse her blind spot. Or land and be forced on the defense since I am right there. You have to commit hard to all of this here. And Peach can exploit that. Unlike other games, I am not afraid of short hop air attacks. the Jab is a better option to stop me from jumping in on you. Just like Uptilt as usual. But as in other games, its just another move to respect and stay ground when the time calls for it with spaced grounded air attacks with a turnip. So yea, this part here....can't really agree with you on this one dude.

"Back air and ftilt are things which "take charge" in a lot of scenarios"

This is really nothing new. peach can not challenge any move that has range and good speed. So if she was smart enough not trying to beat them without some turnip follow up, im not sure why she would try it here.

"(Up Smash OoS may be the best bet, I'm not sure what moves you have/spacings which make this a guaranteed punish though"

I can space a fair/nair to a TLC. If I don't have a turnip, a spaced fair would be best. She can space a nair on shield as well to the pacing for that have to be tight. Pretty much the 22 solid ways to avoid this to a bait/punish.

"In terms of being less committing on the character than you're used to seeing, DB1 in the air has a lot less lag than used on the ground and has frame advantage on hit in the air (unlike in Brawl), with this we can do "short hop double aerials" in a way that does give a semblance of zoning/being less telegraphed in the air that isn't easy to get around."

That's a good way of spacing. I can't really get you as easily for commiting. And you can mix this up as well with a double air attack, or just back up after the first one. Or land and do w/e. If you and and I am near you as usual with a turnip, It's time for me to play. But I kinda have to guess and I can't really put you on the defense for free. I hope just have to hold to this turnip a lil more and stay near you wile out of your range. Alright, you got this one. Good to know.

And no, I have no played a lucy with dash assult. But if anything. I would have to treat that move like grounded falcon kick. it can slow me down cause I would now have to look out for that move really focus on turnip cancels off the ledge to avoid being open for getting one. Though I don't feel its a legit rundown mode. I assume that move still breaks shields so I am not even gonna try and block that. Just have to not stay one spot for too long. And kinda make me second guess my approaches. The mentality I would have for this though is pressuring marth shield on brawl. He can up-B out of pressure so most of the time end the pressure early and see if he up-B and punish of he does. Would have to treat grounded approaches the same way. With this move.

With all this said from you, despite the 1 thing I don't agree with you with, I say good stuff. This here has me thinking and seeing why you say its even. From all the stuff my character can do vs yours. It could be an even fight. But as you said:

For what it's worth, I think Peach is a stronger character this game, so matches will still likely favour her

Though I really don't rely too much on her power as to why she would have the edge in matches. But is great and all but solo power is really nothing. More stuff has to be junction with that. You go on power as to why she would have the edge. I say she would based on other things about her and not really counting power. Which can make it really hard for lucy to get things started and maintain control of a fight. Not really gonna throw out a number. I wanna fight some high level Lucy's before I do such a thing. Not gonna based a number on average play.

Thanks dude, learned some stuff. Which that said, I have nothing more to ask. I think you guys can move on. And glad I could be of help to you players.