Lucas, Roy, Ryu (1.0.8) Community Patch Notes

[Shaya]

Hello and welcome to our now mostly calmed down Community Patch Note thread.
Nearly all relevant changes should be available here, withstanding some niche character fixes or frame data alterations we haven't found yet.
In general, unless there is solid reason to be believe something else has been missed, video evidence is likely required. Anything else is likely going to have you hit with a warning/infraction.

Spoiler: 'Angry' Extended Rule Blurb

Please avoid posting things you cannot confirm with evidence. Placebo be damned.
Please double check to see if something you've posted hasn't already been done so. In the top right corner you are able to search specifically within THIS thread, try the character name and see what others have said (+what's been disconfirmed or otherwise)
REMEMBER that damage decreases or increases nearly linearly affects knock back and hit stun. No need to say "this move kills earlier or later" when we already are aware of damage changes. IF damages aren't changed and knock back is different (e.g. Sonic's back throw last patch) that should be noted.
For the most part, hitbox changes (size or angles) are hard to confirm without data backing and require hard evidence to be noted. Otherwise, hopefully we'll get a data dump some time soon #_#
Please be careful about comparing WiiU to 3DS with different versions, blast zones are different even on shared stages and other visual ques can be different. This means a move will kill at different percent in either version.

IF YOU ARE INSISTENT ON POSTING THINGS THAT ARE DUBIOUS AND DO NOT PRODUCE EVIDENCE YOU WILL BE INFRACTED AND/OR TEMPORARILY ROOM BANNED FROM THIS SECTION

DUMPED DATA CHANGE LISTS:
1.04 -> 1.06 http://smashboards.com/threads/406319/page-26#post-19465191
1.07 -> 1.08 http://smashboards.com/threads/406319/page-19#post-19454998

1.09 Patch
No gameplay changes were made in this release.

Global Changes

• Grounded to Air [l]edge transition mechanics altered, affecting run offs and other momentum techniques. Notable characters: Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Zelda (Nayru's Love), Yoshi (Egg Toss)
• The height at which a defender will land on a platform during a throw's animation overlapping a platform has been increased, reducing the ability for this interaction to happen. Notable on Ganondorf's Flame Choke (can no longer force this on battlefield platforms against any character) or Mewtwo's Confusion.

Table listing is in order of when a character was originally added. Last is changed for when a character is updated. You can sort the table by provided values for your convenience.

Character | Last (PST) | Changes
Ike | 17th 19:30 |

• Forward Tilt
  • Start up: 15 → 12 frames
  • Damage reduced: 14% → 12.5%
• Dash Attack
  • Start up reduced 18 → 15 frames
  • Damage 10%/7%/5% → 14%/11%/9%
• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 16 → 13 frames
• Forward Air
  • Hitboxes follow sword trail (hitting above and below him better)
  • Landing lag reduced 19 → 18 frames
• Quick Draw (Side-B + customs) Start up reduced 19 → 16 frames
• Jab
  • First hit transitions into Second hit 3 frames faster
  • Third hit hitboxes follow sword trail (hitting above him)
• Up Air Landing lag reduced 18 → 15
• Down Air Landing lag reduced 26 → 23 (? 22)
• (1.06) Counter (Down-B) Knockback growth increased 74 → 100

Zelda | 18th 23:02 |

• Up Smash
  • Knockback growth increased (approx killing 20% earlier)
  • Initial hitbox now has increased size and halved SDI multiplier
• Neutral Air
  • Damage on front hits 1% → 2%, Damage on back hits 2% → 1%
  • Landing lag reduced 22 > 19 frames
• Up Air Landing lag reduced 22 > 19 frames
• Down Air Landing lag reduced 21 > 18 frames

Greninja | 20th 18:00 |

• Forward Tilt
  • Damage altered 6.5% → 7.3%
  • Ending frame reduced 41 → 32

Mii Swordfighter | 21st 01:00 |

• Back Air Damage 12% → 14%
• Airborne Assault (Side-B) Displacement trajectory altered (lower than before)
• Jab, Forward Tilt, Down Smash, Forward air Ending/landing lag reduced

Meta Knight | 17th 19:30 |

• Forward Tilt
  • Final hit angle altered 65°→ ~40°
  • Ending frame/IASA reduced on each strike from 33/35/38 → 25/27/31 frames (?)
  • Damage on final hit 3% → 4%
• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced
• Jab
  • Damage increased 1% → 1.2%
  • Ending frame reduced approximately 12 frames

Charizard | July 1st |

• Up Throw Knock back increased significantly (comparable strength to Mewtwo without DI)
• Down Throw
  • Knock back reduced significantly (combo throw?)
  • Ending lag reduced 80 → 72 frames
• Jab
  • Transition from First to Second strike 1 frame faster (now acts as a combo on more/most characters)
  • Jab One increased weight based knockback

Bowser | - |

• Up Tilt
  • Damage 10% → 9%
  • Start up 12 → 11 frames without animation changes (now hits low to the ground in front)
  • Ending 51 → 41 frames

Kirby | - |

• (1.06) Forward Smash Up angled sour spot damage reduced 13% → 12%

Villager | July 1st |

• Balloon Trip (Up-B) Fuel system mechanic (similar to ROB) now recharges noticeably slower, hurting consecutive usages
• Down Throw
• Damage 4.5% → 6%
• Grab
  • Standing grab ending reduced 57 → 55 frames
  • Dash grab ending reduced 71 → 69 frames
  • Pivot grab ending reduced 65 → 64 frames

Ness | - |

• PSI Magnet (Down-B) Ending frame reduced (significantly?)

Falco | July 1st |

• Neutral Air
  • Total damage 12% → 11% (second hit damage 3% → 2%)
  • Hits now auto link
  • Final hit now forces front facing knockback
• Forward Air
  • Aerial Damage 8% → 9%
  • Landing Damage 5% → 3%
  • Start up reduced 12 → 10 frames
  • Landing lag reduced 32 → 25 frames
• Ending lag reduced 58 → 50 frames
• Up Air
  • Damage 11% → 10%
  • Sour spot removed
  • Start up decreased 10 → 7 frames
• Down Air Sweet spot trajectory no longer meteors grounded opponents but sends upwards
• Phantasm (Side-B) Start up increased 18 → 19 frames
• Up Smash Second hit start and duration changed from 13-20 → 12-21 frames

Mr. Game & Watch | 20th 18:00 |

• Down Tilt Knockback increased
• Back Air Landing lag reduced 24 → 19

Lucina / Marth | 20th 18:00 |

• Jab One
  • Marth Damage reduced 4%/6% → 3%/5%
  • Transition frame reduced 21 → 17 (M) / 18 (L)
  • Angle altered from Sakurai Angle, more follow up prone
  • Ending frame increased from 26 → 28 frames (reversing 1.06)
• Jab 2
  • Total Frame Count increased from 26 → 28
• Up Tilt
  • Knock back increased
  • Ending frame reduced 42 → 39
  • Body hitbox angle now more vertical
  • Marth moves forward if actions taken at new IASA rather than original animation length
• Lucina Forward Tilt Damage increased by approx 1% (9.97% → 10.92%)
• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 15 → 12 frames
• Dolphin Slash (Up-B) Knockback increased
• Lucina Counter activation now plays a quote

Rosalina and Luma | 19th 22:51 |

• Luma HP 47 → 50
• Rapid Jab End Knockback Growth Reduced 170 → 150

Lucario | - |

• Jab 1
  • KBG significantly decreased, now links into jab 2 more reliably
  • Now uses weight based knockback growth on Jab One and Two

Donkey Kong | - |

• Cargo Forward Toss
  • Damage increased 8% → 10%
  • Reduced endlag?
• Cargo Back Toss
  • Damage increased 8% → 12%
  • Launch angle increased
  • Reduced endlag?
• Cargo Up Toss Damage increased 7% → 10%
• Cargo Down Toss
  • Damage increased 6% → 7%
  • Now has a "mini hop" that allows DK to float in place while tossing
  • Endlag reduced?

Diddy Kong | 24th 19:00 |

• Up Air
  • Start up increased 3 → 4 frames without animation changes (no longer hits below him)
  • Auto cancel altered from 15 → 27 frames
  • Base/Growth 65/99 → 100/89
• Up Throw Damage reduced 8% → 5%
• Down Throw Damage increased 6% → 7%
• Down Tilt Damage reduced 6% → 5.5%
• Jab Transition between third strike and multihit is now faster
• Grab
  • Standing grab ending increased 28 → 31 frames
  • Dash grab ending increased 35 → 38 frames
  • Pivot grab ending increased 33 → 36

Captain Falcon | 15th 19:00 |

• Up Air Damage decreased 13% → 11%

Link | 24th 19:00 |

• Grab
  • Range increased noticeably
  • Regular grab ending reduced 66 → 61 frames
  • Dash grab ending reduced 77 → 65 frames
  • Pivot grab ending reduced 79 → 66 frames
• Down Tilt
  • Damage 12% → 11%
  • Start up decreased 13 → 11 frames, ending 31 → 28 frames
• Down Throw
  • Trajectory altered 110°→ 83°, growth 90 → 85
  • Damage 7% → 6%
• Up Smash Hitboxes rearranged positions and increased size hence more reliably comboing
• Forward Throw Ending lag reduced 39 → 34 frames

Samus | 24th 19:00 |

• Up Smash
  • Knockback / kill power increased
  • 1.06 Hitbox sizes increased to help link better
• Grab
  • Standing grab ending reduced 79 → 75 frames
  • Pivot grab ending reduced 92 → 88 frames

Palutena | July 3rd |

• Up Tilt
  • Damage on looping hitboxes increased 1% → 1.2%
  • Hitboxes now center on Palutena rather than the staff hence consistent position, increasing reliability of hitting opponents

Olimar | - |

• Pikmin Mechanics Order no longer reverses from ledge grabs (Bug Fix?)

Sonic | 17th 20:30 |

• Down Air Ending lag reduced (stage height off stage down airs no longer SD)
• Up Smash Knockback reduced (approx 10%~ later)

Robin | - |

• Wind Jab Automatic push back from multiple hits now pushes Robin off of edges

Peach | 18th 22:49 |

• Jab 2 Hitbox sizes increased

Wario | 18th 23:02 |

• Jab 1 Trajectory modified for both hitboxes, base knockback and knockback growth altered.
• Jab 2 Hitbox sizes increased, additional hitbox added.

Mewtwo | - |

• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 19 → 16 frames

Mii Gunner | - |

• Absorbing Vortex (Down-B 3) Ending lag reduced significantly (?)

Duck Hunt | July 1st |

• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 22 → 17 frames

[U]Blah[/U] | - | [LIST][*][B]Magic[/B] -[/LIST]

 

[Paper Maribro]

Villager up b distance massively nerfed.

 

[Shaya]

@ Paper Maribro
Proof or infraction~

 

[Paper Maribro]

@ Paper Maribro
Proof or infraction~

Okay gimme 10 minutes please

 

[Shaya]

A solid reference will likely be sufficient (so a character's boards group discussion noting it themselves) otherwise!

 

[APlainOldBanana]

Marth's 2nd jab comes out faster.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's Utilt damage changed from 10% to 9%. That also includes reduced knockback growth, yada yada. More importantly, the move's FAF is 41 from 51, and now hits on Frame 11 to hit opponents in front of Bowser that are as small as Olimar. Frame data courtesy of @ KuroganeHammer in this thread. It's really a pretty cool buff.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That also includes reduced knockback growth, yada yada.

No. Base KB and KBG are probably the same.

 

[sonnytapman]

As I was saying...
Shulk: 18, 35, 50, 64 , 77
Lucario: 12, 23, 33, 44, 54 (Leway for aura changes)
Doc: 16, 30, 44, 56, 67
Stale moves test, utilizing Shulks, Lucarios and Docs up smash.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

No. Base KB and KBG are probably the same.

Damage reduction = reduced knockback growth in Smash 4. That's what I was referring to. The OP specifically states not to bother mentioning it when reporting a damage change.

 

[PandaEffect]

Marth's 2nd jab comes out faster.

Marth first jab pops opponents up instead of sending them farther! It combos into the second jab much more easily and sets up interesting follow ups depending on how the opponent reacts. In exchange he loses the ability to use jab1 as a jab reset but overall a buff in my opinion.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Damage reduction = reduced knockback growth in Smash 4. That's what I was referring to. The OP specifically states not to bother mentioning it when reporting a damage change.

That's just knockback. Knockback GROWTH is a very important part of the knockback calculation and is separate from damage.

If you want an example of a moves KBG being changed, look no further than Zelda's new up smash, which now kills 20% earlier than before, but does the same amount of damage prepatch.

 

[APlainOldBanana]

Marth first jab pops opponents up instead of sending them farther! It combos into the second jab much more easily and sets up interesting follow ups depending on how the opponent reacts. In exchange he loses the ability to use jab1 as a jab reset but overall a buff in my opinion.

Out of anything they could've done, they buff his jab...at least it's something.

 

[sonnytapman]

So with the testing from earlier (which were done on a level 1 CPU Villager), I think stale move penalty is more significant, if someone could prove that with the same three characters that'd be appreciated.

 

[NeonSpeed315]

All hits of Falco's nair connect if the first does now; no more "one hit them easily escape" BS :D

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That's just knockback. Knockback GROWTH is a very important part of the knockback calculation and is separate from damage.

If you want an example of a moves KBG being changed, look no further than Zelda's new up smash, which now kills 20% earlier than before, but does the same amount of damage prepatch.

Is it at all feasible to test if base knockback vs. knockback growth was increased, or is that something that we need data dumps for?

 

[Metal Fish]

I can't get two up airs in Diddy's short hop anymore. D:

 

[LimitCrown]

The last hit of Meta Knight's forward tilt deals 4% damage instead of 3% and the repeating hits of his jab attack deal 1.2% instead of 1%.

Falco's front air attack has an extra hit for the looping hitbox, so it can deal up to six hits in the air. Also, that attack's landing hit deals 3% instead of 5%.
The second hit of Falco's neutral air attack deals 2% instead of 3%. Also, it appears to have the autolink angle now.

The sourspot of Kirby's side smash attack when angled upward deals 12% instead of 13%.

 

[JipC]

Character | Last (PST) | Changes
Swordfighter | - |

• Back Air Damage 12%->14%

OH SNAP WE TOP TIER NOW
I also dont get that global change? What exactly was changed/altered?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is it at all feasible to test if base knockback vs. knockback growth was increased, or is that something that we need data dumps for?

Probably would need a data dump, but generally if a moves % is increase or decreased by a small amount and there's no huge KB difference, it's probably the same.

Contrast a move that does the same amount of damage but has wildly different KB values, you could assume the KBG or BKB has been changed for that too.

 

[Chandeelure]

Palutena's Up Tilt connects all the hits.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Villager's Balloon Trip's fresh max travel distance remains about the same, however it now decays much more severely on consecutive uses.

 

[sonnytapman]

Oops, I don't think I made my request clear. Can someone test the stale move penalty on the Usmash of Doc, Lucario and Shulk in the previous patch?

 

[Noa.]

Ness's PSI magnet has significantly reduced endlag. This is confirmed by multiple Ness players on our boards. We haven't found anything else substantial yet.

 

[APlainOldBanana]

I can't get two up airs in Diddy's short hop anymore. D:

RIP Diddy 2008 - June 14 2015

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Probably would need a data dump, but generally if a moves % is increase or decreased by a small amount and there's no huge KB difference, it's probably the same.

Contrast a move that does the same amount of damage but has wildly different KB values, you could assume the KBG or BKB has been changed for that too.

What I meant was, suppose a move does the same damage but has more knockback. Obviously either BKB or KBG was increased, but can we feasibly figure out which one?

Villager's Balloon Trip's fresh max travel distance remains about the same, however it now decays much more severely on consecutive uses.

If true, how does this effect Extreme Balloon Trip?

 

[Paper Maribro]

@ Shaya

Video still uploading, gonna take a while but what I can tell you is that it's linked to this https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/509531785672142848 rather than it being a straight recovery slaughter which is what I thought it was.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What I meant was, suppose a move does the same damage but has more knockback. Obviously either BKB or KBG was increased, but can we feasibly figure out which one?

Nope, that's impossible.

You'd need @Dantarion to post data dumps. Not sure how likely that is to happen though considering 1.0.6 didn't get posted.

 

[Ffamran]

Link to where all this began in the Falco Patch History thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-patch-history.375247/page-3#post-19411602.

Confirmed things on Falco:

Nair: 12% to 11%; the second hit does 2% instead of 3% now. Also, it connects better apparently because it has autolink angles now.

Fair: 8% to 9%; Fair does an additional 1% hit.

Fair landing: 5% to 3%.

Uair: 11% to 10% and lost the sour-spot aka body hitbox.

Unconfirmed things or things that need someone else to test since we lack the equipment to do so:

Jab: transitions to jab 2 quicker, transitions to rapid jab better, rapid jab has autolink angles, rapid jab transitions to rapid jab finisher quicker. Yeah, needs something like checking IASA frame and a data dump to check angles.

Fair: startup reduced from 12 to ??; said to be quicker, but nobody's recorded a side-by-side yet. They have tested combos where it seems to connect much quicker than pre-patch. I think, going from eye comparisons of other move speed and (poor) memory, Fair might be a frame 6 or 8 move. Also, lowered landing lag and knockback changes might be a thing too.

Uair: startup from 10 to 7. A2ZOMG tested this, but a more accurate test from a recording would be nice. Also, maybe changes to hit angle since it seems to function more like Captain Falcon's now.

Falco U-air is frame 7 now on the back end. Confirmed by testing against Bowser's Jab. Thanks to angle changes, U-air -> B-air is much easier to land for KO confirms.

The D-air change is sorta a buff and a nerf. Mostly a buff because you still have combos into U-air from it and now they aren't techable. Only a really minor nerf at high percents assuming your opponent doesn't tech the meteor.

N-air is waaay waaaay waaaaaaaaaay better now that it has autolink angle on the multihits. The 1% nerf is meaningless when it's a 3 frame aerial that can potentially KO (MUCH better for edgeguarding and juggling). Also it is now properly classified as a Special Offensive Collision, meaning it always sends your opponents the direction Falco is facing when you connect the final hit (this is super important in low% juggle strings after D-throw, now you don't have to guess which direction they will be sent when chasing them).

I believe Jab is now a Special Offensive Collision, I tried multiple times to get people to be knocked backwards by Jab. Couldn't make it happen, which means Jab is a lot less likely to randomly get you punished on hit if you're too close (you can still be too close and just completely whiff, but connecting the Jab at least is consistent).

F-air animation is definitely sped up, not much else to say about that.

Unconfirmed: less ending lag on grounded laser?

Dair: we know its launch angle on ground opponents is different, but exactly what angle is left for someone with a protractor or a data dump to check. This also means Falco cannot frame cancel Dair spike lock anymore; he can still lock with the soft hit. Someone also mentioned that the spike hitbox lasts longer, but yeah...

Blaster: end lag changes. The old, usual running gag...

Throws: someone mentioned that U-throw and B-throw hit better at higher percents, but considering DI... yeah...

 

[Deleted member]

G&W's D-tilt has more knockback and now kills Mario @ ~130%.

Video proof

On a side note, the windbox associated with that move no longer pushes G&W backwards if used multiple times on airborne opponents.

Credit to Keep2D for finding this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link to where all this began in the Falco Patch History thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-patch-history.375247/page-3#post-19411602.

Confirmed things on Falco:

Nair: 12% to 11%; the second hit does 2% instead of 3% now. Also, it connects better apparently because it has autolink angles now.

The final hit on N-air also is a Special Offensive Collision that always sends Falco's opponent forwards. This is extremely important because it means after D-throw N-air, you no longer need to guess which side your opponent will end up on in order to chase them afterwards. Furthermore it helps Falco do things like edgeguard people who hug the stage.

Unfortunately I don't have two systems to confirm this, but I was unable to hit people backwards with Falco's Jab even after setting someone like Marth to "Walk" and trying several times to clip him with the back end of Jab. So I also believe Falco's Jab was reformatted as a Special Offensive Collision.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

I need to compare but I don't see any changes with Link or ZSS right now - those are my two mains. I have not had a lot of time to compare % though.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Villager DThrow 4.5% > 6%. It now combos into slingshots at mid percents, hooray

 

[LimitCrown]

It seems that the trajectory of the Mii Swordfighter's Airborne Assault is different. The Swordfighter doesn't travel as far above the ground as before.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm going to mostly copy my post from the Marth general thread/Marth changes thread/old patch thread:

MARTH

So Jab 1 does 1 less damage non tipper and tip, but leads to everything. Whether you want to true combo it to jab 2, or bait an air dodge, maybe get some Utilt, or idk tipper FSMASH, grab, Usmash true combos at kill percents....

Utilt is stronger tipper and non tipper, and looking at the animation, Utilt is less laggy, somewhere between 37-39 frames it seems rather than 42. Utilt used to kill Marth on an Omega stage in the mid to high 140s (Wii U), now it kills Marth at 127%!!! on an Omega stage (Wii U). Trust me, I know EVERYTHING about pre-patch Marth/Marth in general.

All aerials probably have the same knockback. Same damage, horrible autocancel, and landing lag except Nair. Nair seems to have less landing lag when compared to Uair landing lag. There seems to be a bigger difference between the 2.

It's true, jab 2 doesn't connect after 100% even though the animation looks like it should (hate that). However, above 100, if you got tipper jab 1, and wait just a little bit, you can get tipper jab 2 still a true combo. But this isnt too important, you want to kill them at high percents, so just use jab 1 into something else. At low percents both jabs work perfect thats all I need

It seems you can get jab 2 earlier, like maybe input after frame 18ish instead of 20

OMG, I am loving this. Jab 1 to tipper Fsmash is DABOMB

ANOTHER Utilt change, the body hitbox (the one that does 5%), now sends them upwards. I hate that, it used to send them horizontal (off stage)

At first I thought Dolphin Slash had better range for the 11% hitbox but I mostly doubt it, it's probably the same strength too, hard to tell. Possible that it's stronger.

Grab range is exactly the same

Dsmash, unfortunately is exactly the same

Uthrow is exactly the same

Ftilt is exactly the same

Dtilt is exactly the same

Fsmash, same

Usmash, same

can no longer jab lock with jab. GRRRRRR

Can't do 2 aerials in a short hop. Like I said, aerials are the same.

Seems like Dancing Blade is the same.

Shield breaker seems the same

Throws seem the same. I got Fthrow to Fair to combo on Marth at 50%, that's normal I believe with no DI

Dash attack is the same

Fair still doesn't have a frame 5 hitbox (above Marth) even though the animation still looks like it does

The back hit of Utilt combos into Uair!!

Think I have proof that nair has less landing lag. First hit of tipper Nair combos into Utilt well before 100%. It wasnt like that before

THIS IS WEIRD: Marth moves forward while doing Utilt!! Did he do that before? I would have noticed. They have to be consecutive Utilts.

LUCINA:

All Marth changes apply to her

Lucina sometimes say "ha" while doing up B

Lucina's Ftilt now does somewhere between 10.51% and 10.99%, up from 9.97%


With Utilt back to it's Brawl glory (not Melee though, that was broken) and the best jab Marth has ever had (LIKE SERIOUSLY THIS JAB 1 CAN PUT YOU IN FOX JAB SITUATIONS), Marth was once again buffed and in my opinion he can hold a candle to Roy. People have been saying otherwise.

_______________________

Since then I found out Lucina makes noises during Counter attack and back hit of Utilt combos into front hit (after turnaround)

Hopefully you can trust me Shaya, I have no proof except kill percents but I know what changes. I found the last Marth changes in the previous patch

 

[sonnytapman]

Checked Doc's soaring Tornado, it send Mario from one edge of FD to the other. Not sure if that was like that in the last patch, I'm just throwing it out there.

 

[TheLippyLapras]

I need to compare but I don't see any changes with Link or ZSS right now - those are my two mains. I have not had a lot of time to compare % though.

I'm sure Link had his down throw changed. Keep seeing people say it sends the opponent directly above you now.

 

[Greward]

I'm sure Link had his down throw changed. Keep seeing people say it sends the opponent directly above you now.

Link's dthrow knockback trajectory is changed, now you can follow it up with legit combos at low %s (uptilt). He can even hoo haa to kill with certain DIs lol.
His grab also seems to have more range, but I don't know for sure.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Supposedly, Diddy's UAIR has 2 more frames of end lag

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know if it's because the windboxes on start-up are stronger or if Little Mac moves more slowly on F-Smash or what, but it...takes longer...for the opponent to pass through you if you use an F-Smash very close to the opponent.

The end result is that F-Smash is much less likely to miss due to being too close on start-up. Up-angled F-Smash actually still hits upon crossing up now because you don't pass as far through them, even if you're as close as possible before starting F-Smash.