Little Mac on the Tier List: Thoughts & Questions

[Zoramine Fae]

The Smash 4 Backroom released the most recent 'official' tier list on the first of February ( http://smashboards.com/threads/first-official-4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list.429817/ for those that haven't seen yet), and I was immediately attracted towards it to see where my mains and secondaries lied.

I was quite happy to see Dark Pit, Roy, Marth, R.O.B (Although probably through bias and not fighting/seeing many good Peaches I consider him over Peach) and Cloud right where they belonged. I personally feel that Kirby and Marth (although Kirby in particular) should be higher, but this ain't an analysis on the tier list and what I consider good and bad about it.

However, it actually did take me a bit (as well as waiting through AceStar's video on the tier list, as it was the first place I heard about it) to notice where Little Mac was placed: at the very bottom of Low tier, in the G rank.

Now, I'm not saying this is what everyone should believe or whatever, but I personally felt as though Doctor Mario should have taken his spot and Mac should have bottom of G tier or at the very top of Bottom Tier, but I had the thought of making this with one simple question:

Do you guys agree with where Little Mac is placed in the current tier list? If yes, would you change anything about the closer characters to him? If no, where WOULD you put him instead?

 

[Zodiacx10]

from playing mac almost exclusively in smash 4 and from watching other macs play...i knew he was below mid tier but not quite bottom tier. so when i saw he was at the bottom of G tier i thought that made sense and was a good spot for him. its a shame he's not better cuz he's the only reason i play smash 4 in the first place lol

 

[Yoshister]

I think Mac should be above Duck Hunt, not tied with him.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Honestly I agree with this, he is an amazing character but he sucks in the air. If you can stay on the ground you win by default, but if you get in air youre in for a ride. I would honestly put him outside of the tier list because he can win or go nearly even in every matchup but thats only if you can keep yourself grounded which is a bit different than everything else, hes like the grounded version of sheik

 

[Crystaljiggs]

I would think little mac should be a mid tier because of his amazing ground game but he is not winning anything

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I'm impressed to pop back in here and to see that a bunch of people would put him higher. I'm... uh, serious about that. Only three other people outside of myself want him to be in the same spot and nearly double want him higher; is that some bias I see? c:

And Crystaljiggs, for at least how I view tier list 'rankings', Mid Tier characters are ones that need one secondary in order to do well and cover certain matchups, such as say Mario had issues with Cloud, Marth, and other characters with disjoints (which isn't necessarily true, just an example) and he would need something that beats disjoint characters, thus he would be around mid tier. Little Mac, on the other hand, can require up to two to beat out some of his worst matchups since one character will not cover all of them, since this list includes Sheik, ZSS, Rosa (if the Rosa plays well), Mario, and Pac-Man. That and, uh, seeing as you are a jiggs main apparently, how are you so certain on this?

Either way, keep votes and posts coming in. I love hearing from other Mac players on things like this.

 

[Pixel_]

As an outsider, what do you think's the reason he's low tier in the first place?
Is it just like ZeRo said, that he's too risky? Or is he just not getting results?

 

[Zoramine Fae]

As an outsider, what do you think's the reason he's low tier in the first place?
Is it just like ZeRo said, that he's too risky? Or is he just not getting results?

He has too many problems against the high tier, hell even the mid tier characters who can easily edgeguard him into oblivion. While smart Mac players won't allow this to happen, there is very few good Mac players out there to show that he isn't just a bad For Glory character who should be ignored in the tournament scene. It doesn't help that the top 5 characters in the game currently all practically body Mac outside of Rosalina, and even then it's still very easy to lose with Mac in that matchup (I consider it 60-40 Rosa's favor, others are 65-35 and 70-30 for Sheik as well as Mario. But he ain't top 5.)

In terms of riskiness, his Down Tilt, backside of Up Tilt, and down angled Forward Smash are all safe on shield (mostly), but in other terms of the word it is very risky to choose Mac in a competitive scene full of people who can read you like the goddamn English teacher herself. You are better off choosing something safer like Sheik, Mario, or Ryu, but if you choose Mac opponents become scared quickly and take risks just to remove you before you get enough rage or a KO punch off. He's the entire definition of high-risk, high reward, but other characters like the three I mentioned simply have less risk and nearly equal, if not higher in certain matchups, in terms of reward.

I say he should stay where he is for now. If people truly begin to show (and more than just about two or so people) that Mac is very good in the metagame if played right, my opinion will change for the character.

Also, nice to see a R.O.B main here. Don't see many of those around, salute to you.

 

[Rekzius]

The problem with trying to place mac on a tier list is that his matchup spread is so wierd. He does well against a lot of top tiers like fox, SSZ, rosalina and even sheik to some exstent. And he losse to some low tiers like dedede and bowser. I think he should be higher, just based on that alone. I personaly think he is somewhere in top 25.

"NB: Matchups are subjective, but this is what i believe"

 

[Zoramine Fae]

The problem with trying to place mac on a tier list is that his matchup spread is so wierd. He does well against a lot of top tiers like fox, SSZ, rosalina and even sheik to some exstent. And he losse to some low tiers like dedede and bowser. I think he should be higher, just based on that alone. I personaly think he is somewhere in top 25.

"NB: Matchups are subjective, but this is what i believe"

I'd like to agree if I didn't think ZSS beat Mac. Fox losing and Sheik sort of 'losing' yeah I understand. Rosalina imo wins except for down angled FSmash.

And my opinion probably won't change for a while XD

 

[jet56]

Ill be short and straightforward here. mac is still being underutilized. i want you to ask yourself, how does mac deal with a shielding opponent? how many different ways can he handle it? 2, maybe 3? actually:
1. grab, roll boosted grab, pivot grab
2. safe tilts and smashes on shield
3. grab mixups. ex: jab, jab-grab, dtilt-grab
4. baiting a shield drop
5. waiting them out
6. aggro shield pressure to force a shield poke or shield break. DaFsmash followed up by multijab for example.

Oh im sorry they are shield grabbing? well answer number 2 will help you out there. too close to them? just mix up jab>jab>roll, gentleman jab (you can even change up the timing on the last hit to throw them off on when to drop shield or commit to an option) jab>jab>dtilt, you can also use option 3 above if they start waiting in shield till you do something unsafe on shield.

And guess what? that was just with how to deal with a shield. i didn't mention the rest of his neutral, safe defensive and offensive options, moves with good ledge option coverages, follow-up and kill conversions, and so on.

in my opinion, i would put him between 25-30th. people just don't play this character right at all.
not trying to brag, but i have gotten 3rd, 1st, and 2nd in my last 3 local tournies, which is not something that should be happening if he was really a bottom 10 character, even on a local level. just my thoughts on it.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Ill be short and straightforward here. mac is still being underutilized. i want you to ask yourself, how does mac deal with a shielding opponent? how many different ways can he handle it? 2, maybe 3? actually:
1. grab, roll boosted grab, pivot grab
2. safe tilts and smashes on shield
3. grab mixups. ex: jab, jab-grab, dtilt-grab
4. baiting a shield drop
5. waiting them out
6. aggro shield pressure to force a shield poke or shield break. DaFsmash followed up by multijab for example.

Oh im sorry they are shield grabbing? well answer number 2 will help you out there. too close to them? just mix up jab>jab>roll, gentleman jab (you can even change up the timing on the last hit to throw them off on when to drop shield or commit to an option) jab>jab>dtilt, you can also use option 3 above if they start waiting in shield till you do something unsafe on shield.

And guess what? that was just with how to deal with a shield. i didn't mention the rest of his neutral, safe defensive and offensive options, moves with good ledge option coverages, follow-up and kill conversions, and so on.

in my opinion, i would put him between 25-30th. people just don't play this character right at all.
not trying to brag, but i have gotten 3rd, 1st, and 2nd in my last 3 local tournies, which is not something that should be happening if he was really a bottom 10 character, even on a local level. just my thoughts on it.

Finally, someone that actually makes long as hell posts like me! Where have you been all this time?!

I'm very fond of Little Mac's shield pressuring options and how he can get past them, and even then I still find myself getting bummed over by crap like Sheiks. But then again, that's because it's Sheik.

I think that Little Mac's main issue for not being any higher doesn't count on his shield issues (In reality he has about the same issues as the standard character does, if not him having an advantage due to DaFsmash's ridiculous shield pressure), but instead is most likely due to not only his representation, but also another issue which Rekzius has mentioned before us. Sol is the only Little Mac main offhand that I can remember that actually looks really damn good, and from scanning through VGBootCamp, go ahead and look at the Nioret vs TheKidFinnesse match and just, watch. Once you view that you might understand the... GOOD 'representation' issue Little Mac has.

And for the issue Rekzius mentioned, Little Mac has some of the dumbest matchup spreads out there if you look at everyone based around a high skill level. Like, for me personally, lower tier characters such as Link, Bowser, Samus, and even partially Zelda for god's sake can get an advantage on Little Mac. However, some of the upper tier characters such as ZSS, Rosalina (probably, but that's other peoples opinions for these two >.>), Ryu, and even Falcon a bit have problems with these matchups considering how vioatile Little Mac is and the fact his neutral beats out almost every other characters, as well as his advantage state being the absolute highest in the game.

 

[OmegaStriker]

As an outsider, what do you think's the reason he's low tier in the first place?
Is it just like ZeRo said, that he's too risky? Or is he just not getting results?

People don't want to play Little Mac for good reason. The character is just way too polarized. Great grounded stats in a game where a great air game is needed to survive once you're up there. And seeing as his air game is the worst in the game...

In any case, Little Mac is a perfect example of "Difficult, but Awesome". If he's on the ground and a smart player with an excellent neutral is using him, he's close to unstoppable. One slip up though, just one, and you're fighting for your life.

 

[Xcelerator]

Little Mac played at his full potential, which is what a tierlist states, is atleast top/mid of mid tier in my opinion.However, this is quite hard to execute consistently. The fact that Little Mac is so technical in order to be fully utilized, holds him back from his deserved spot on the tierlist. I wish sirchadakiss18 would go out to tourneys more and show peepz da champ, because he is the only one Ive seen so far who plays Little Mac at his full potential. Im trying to do the same since this past weekend in my own country, but it's quite hard to do so. I won't give up tho

 

[C0rvus]

Little Mac's effectiveness is unfortunately tied heavily to stage choices. He's very hyperbolic and hard to pin down. That said, he's clearly lacking the consistency required to be a top or high tier character. He's without a doubt in the bottom half of the cast. Don't take that the wrong way; many characters in this game are good. Mac can compete, and look at Sol, Alphicans, and Chota. He can win if you play smart and know your stuff, just like any other character.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Happy to see that there are many votes and this thread is getting tons of attention. I'm impressed nobody has voted for him being lower than he is right now tbh. I was expecting that to dominate, not him being HIGHER.

Happy for it, though. Keep talking, Big Macs!

Did I just make a McDonalds joke? Oh god...

 

[6FinalFlame6]

Noble|Sol Analysis on the Shiek/Mac Matchup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG5WH8qM4uY

 

[sirchadakiss18]

Little Mac played at his full potential, which is what a tierlist states, is atleast top/mid of mid tier in my opinion.However, this is quite hard to execute consistently. The fact that Little Mac is so technical in order to be fully utilized, holds him back from his deserved spot on the tierlist. I wish sirchadakiss18 would go out to tourneys more and show peepz da champ, because he is the only one Ive seen so far who plays Little Mac at his full potential. Im trying to do the same since this past weekend in my own country, but it's quite hard to do so. I won't give up tho

Going to SoTH in April, Xeno maybe this Weekend (March 5th)

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Nice to see we will be having a rep there then, Sirchadakiss. Good luck when you are there!

Where would you guys put him outside of where he currently is? Personally he's fine just where he's at, with the limited reps that we have going around and the fact that Little Mac is pretty inconsistent at winning due to the nature of the character archetype that he is.

As an off-topic but still towards Little Mac note, I'm remaking my guides for him. And it's gonna be long. hoo-boy, is it gonna be long. Covering the ins and outs of every move in his arsenal, how to generally play him in the netural, at an advantage/disadvantage state, good stages, and the longest section of all of them (and I'm crazy for doing this), discussing every single character matchup Little Mac has. Why I'm doing this is for people who have problems with certain character matchups, have read the rest of the guide and want to see how he fares, or just for those people that are trying to beat Little Mac by reading about him and then being able to view how their character fares. Sad part is that I'm one of those typers that goes above and beyond expectations, and so far the first six characters I have done in the past 2 days are about 2 and a half + pages long, about 1500 words at minimum. Ridiculous.

- Zoramine Fae

 

[Yoshister]

Nice to see we will be having a rep there then, Sirchadakiss. Good luck when you are there!

Where would you guys put him outside of where he currently is? Personally he's fine just where he's at, with the limited reps that we have going around and the fact that Little Mac is pretty inconsistent at winning due to the nature of the character archetype that he is.

As an off-topic but still towards Little Mac note, I'm remaking my guides for him. And it's gonna be long. hoo-boy, is it gonna be long. Covering the ins and outs of every move in his arsenal, how to generally play him in the netural, at an advantage/disadvantage state, good stages, and the longest section of all of them (and I'm crazy for doing this), discussing every single character matchup Little Mac has. Why I'm doing this is for people who have problems with certain character matchups, have read the rest of the guide and want to see how he fares, or just for those people that are trying to beat Little Mac by reading about him and then being able to view how their character fares. Sad part is that I'm one of those typers that goes above and beyond expectations, and so far the first six characters I have done in the past 2 days are about 2 and a half + pages long, about 1500 words at minimum. Ridiculous.

- Zoramine Fae

I'll be sure to take a look at it when it's complete.

Are you sure you're not writing a book?

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I'll be sure to take a look at it when it's complete.

Are you sure you're not writing a book?

It's a book, all right.

...But no seriously, I'm trying to cover everything possible, and that means EVERYTHING. Everything will be sorted out with spoilers to section off parts so people can view only the parts they want to view and to lower its overall length without spoilers open, but at the end with all of it open it'll be insane.

In said guide I'm covering each character, as I stated before, and the plus sides that Mac has and the down sides of fighting said character. This is specifically for people who struggle in certain matchups and me giving them as much information that I can possibly cover on the characters, especially good since I know most of them and how to at least minimally play each character in the cast.

I like challenges. This is something nobody would do, probably because its insane, unnecessary, and because not many people would consider going as far as I enjoy going into things.

-Zoramine Fae


EDIT: Monday next week and it's already at 28k. And it's nowhere NEAR being done.

Oh god.