Link's Advanced Techniques (Jab Canceling & Holding a Bomb While F-smashing/F-tilting Removed)

[DarkDeity15]

Link's Bag of Tricks

Welcome!​

A warm welcome is given to new Link players and to those who are simply interested in all the advanced tech Link has to offer. The purpose of this thread is so that all of Link's ATs & AT information is gathered into one place. That way, they are easily accessible to everyone. This will also be the main spot where ATs will be discussed. More ATs will be included as time goes on.

About The Thread​

Quite frankly I don't have the time to spend making the entire thread at once, so I've decided to do us a favor and release it early. The OP will be divided into the categories "Major ATs" and "Minor ATs". The videos that go along with some of the more complicated ATs will uploaded much later, because I've run into some family-related issues as of late. More ATs will be included as time goes on.

Extra Info: Things that are underlined like this are always the names of ATs, or closely involve them. Things that are bold like this are probably that way because they're important, while things that are bolded and/or emphisized like this are especially important.

Index:
Major ATs~

1. Soft Throws
2. Bomb Mines
3. Bomb Drops + Catches
4. Bomb Jumping
5. CQC Z-drops & Bomb Shines
6. B-reversing & Wave Bouncing
7. Bomb Throws OoS (Out of Shield)
8. Tether Canceling
9. Tether Canceled Bomb Shines
10. JC (Jump Canceled) Bomb Throws
11. Up Smash & Spin Attack OoS

The final Major AT that I plan to cover next is: Bomb Sliding

The "Minor ATs" will be added when "Major ATs" have been completed.

Minor ATs Will Include: Phoenix Bombs, Down Throw FF (Fast Fall) Bomb Catch, Dance Trotting, Gale Guarding, Falling Spin Attack Cancel, Instant Aerial Spin Attack, Falling Spin Attack, and lastly, FH (Full Hop) Up Air Ledge Grab Cancel.

~Major ATs~

​

Let's start off with Link's major ATs. By "major" I mean the ATs that most affect Link's meta, and are highly recommended that you master in order to improve your game at a high level. There are 13 major Link ATs in total (not including the ones underneath the red subtitles), all of which can be or are important in their own way. For beginners who want to use Link as effectively as possible, these ATs will help you out with that. It's your job to master as many of them as you can and to take advantage of their utility as much as needed.

Open the spoiler to view major ATs.

Spoiler

#1: Soft Throws (MUST KNOW)
This is not only one of Link's most important ATs in his meta, but it's also one of the easiest to master. To perform this with your c-stick, you must have it set to "attack". Otherwise, you must light throw the bomb in the opposite direction Link is facing while either standing or walking. The result will be the bomb gently landing on the ground without exploding. You can also soft throw the bomb in front of you when moving forward by turning around, jump canceling and then lightly throwing the bomb behind you. You can tell that Link has done a light throw when he doesn't yell.

There's a few ways you can use this to your advantage. First, the bomb will always detect hurtboxes as long as it's moving and the hitbox stays out longer than when normally when soft throwing it. It's also very worth noting that this is an excellent way to plant bombs and set up bomb mines (see AT #2). Also know that you can soft throw out of a walk, dash, and run. There are a couple of ways to soft throw out of a run. You can throw the bomb behind you out of shield, or you can jump cancel pivot toss it (I'll also get into JC tosses). Both are equally as quick.

#2:
Bomb Mines (MUST KNOW)​

Bomb mines can be very helpful to you in that they create stage control extremely well. What these are is basically your bomb/s sitting on the ground. Putting a bomb between yourself and your opponent can make them unsure of how to approach you. You can take this time to either think of a strategy or to encourage and punish a bad decision you opponent makes.

Creating bomb mines is easy to perform, but also very important. What you need to do here is simply manage to land a bomb on the ground without it exploding. There are a few ways to do it. As mentioned in the above AT, you can soft throw the bomb, which has the added benefit of the bomb acting as a projectile. You can also just straight up drop it when you're close enough to the ground, with two main ways to do so, bringing us to...

#3:
Bomb Drops & Catches (MUST KNOW)​

Dropping Bombs (Pun Intended)~
...The first way being the easiest. Just drop the bomb close enough to the ground by pressing the grab button (which is called a Z-drop) so that you don't get punished for needlessly throwing out a Zair/Link's clawshot (if you drop a a bomb high enough to where you see your clawshot, this is called a Zair Drop), and I'd advise anyone to time the Z-drop late enough so that you receive no lag from Zair at all (called Bomb Shining, which I'll be talking about in AT #6. And yes, it's still considered a bomb shine if the bomb doesn't hit anyone). Just make sure that you let go of the grab button right after if you don't want to shield. Of course you can Zair drop if need be, but that's just a safer and faster alternative.

The second is done by jumping and then instantly, right as Link's feet leave the ground (you won't notice that in-game though), dropping the bomb with the grab button while the control stick is in it's neutral position. This is called Instant Z-dropping, where Link can jump and plant a bomb without using a Zair/his clawshot at all. However your timing needs to be very percise, otherwise you'll toss the bomb forward if done too early or perform a Zair drop if done too late. The bomb needs to be dropped just a few frames after Link leaves the ground. With time and practice though, your muscle memory will eventually take over for you. And if you're really fast, Link can catch the bomb in the air right after an instant Z-drop. This is then called an IZAC (instant Z-drop aerial catch). And if timed correctly, you can even perform a Phoenix Bomb by catching the bomb immediately after having in explode on someone, which I will be talking about in the Minor AT section. Performing a Phoenix bomb this way is called an IZPB (Instant Z-drop Phoenix Bomb).

You can also catch a planted or airborne bomb with an aerial and then drop it again as soon as the move ends with the grab button. You won't perform a Zair.

Catching Bombs (Same With Other Grab-able Items)~
You can easily pick up a bomb with the grab button if you're in the air or by airdodging if you're in range. And as said above, you can also catch bombs with normal air attacks if you're in range of them and then drop them without Zairing by pressing the grab button as soon as the move finishes. This can allow for some pretty cool stuff to happen and is useful for mindgames and offstage shenanigans.

#4:
Bomb Jumping​

A really simple AT, yet comes into handy pretty often. Especially now that the bombs's fuse has shortened to 3.66 seconds. If you've been launched offstage while having your bomb cook for a bit, even when your chances of making it back onstage look bleak, just up B anyways. If you manage to gain some hight before the bomb explodes, your stock has been saved. It's as simple as it gets.

#5:
CQC (Close Quarters Combat) Z-drops & Bomb Shines (MUST KNOW)​

So let's get right to the Chetaeu Romani & heart containers here. Literally all you have to do to CQC Z-drop is press the grab button to drop a bomb right inside of someone while being close enough to the ground, so that Link's Zair doesn't appear. Either that, or you can instant Z-drop it (see how to do it in AT #3 under "Dropping Bombs"). The bomb will hit an opponent so quickly that they won't have any time to react since the bomb explodes as soon as it's out. Last I remember, it took 1 frame for the bomb to leave Link's hand. However, because of how bombs work, the time it takes for a bomb to leave Link's hand and hit the opponent is about 2 frames, making it nearly as good as a Melee shine in terms of frame data.

This AT alone gives Link one of the best combo set-ups in the game. The guaranteed combo options are pretty much endless depending on their % (DI plays a role as well, but you can combo an opponent anyways if you can keep track of where they're going) and you can true combo the bomb with a forward air attack well above 120% on Mario. And yes, you can true combo CQC Z-drops into a meteor down air attack for some insanely early kills on most characters. Instant Z-dropping makes this AT better since you aren't forced to land because of Zair, you dont have to jump at someone first, and because you don't have to deal with the tiny amount of endlag it gives you if you land. However, normally CQC Z-dropped bombs that are dropped as late as possible (just before Link's feet touch the ground) will cause you to retain no landing lag from your Z-air at all, at which point is called a Bomb Shine.

Instant Z-dropping also has a property where if it is shielded normally, it will still hit the opponent on the way down if they drop their shield as opposed to dropping it any other way, where I guess you can say the bomb is "against you". Also note that a bomb can still hit your opponent no matter how it's dropped if they tried to just power shield it like it were nothing.

These Techniques also work very well with meteor bombs, so be sure to try them out, too.

#6:
B-reversing & Wave Bouncing​

You might've actually seen this AT mentioned in the game at some point. Link's most notable moves that can be B-reversed and wave bounced are his arrows and boomerang. These can be used to mix up your landings and mindgame.

B-reversing~
In order perform a B-reverse, while Link is moving in the air, use either Link's neutral special (arrows) or his side special (boomerang). If you use the boomerang, make sure that the control stick is left in its neutral position right after. Immediately after activating the move (before the move even comes out), tap the control stick in the opposite direction Link is facing. The result should be in Link reversing momentum and direction while performing the special.

Wave Bouncing~
This one is a bit trickier than the regular B-reverse, but the main principle behind it is pretty much the same. All you have to do is B-reverse, only this time immediately after tapping the opposite direction Link is facing, tap forward. Link should reverse his momentum, but not the direction he's facing. The purpose of this B-reverse variation is pretty self explanatory.

#7:
Bomb Throws Out of Shield (MUST KNOW)​

It's a common misconception that Link has a hard time dealing with people who land behind him when he's in shield. Mostly because of Link's ability to throw bombs directly OoS. It's also likely that you've knowingly been performing this already, probably because I've already mentioned it in the first AT segment on soft throws. This AT is literally the easiest AT ever. Just hold shield with a bomb in hand and then either press the attack button and use the control stick to control where you'll throw it, or just use the c-stick. This is especially handy because you don't have to wait until after you drop your shield to throw the bomb.

#8:
Tether Canceling​

Not only does this look incredibly stylish, but it's extremely useful as a fantastic recovery mix-up. There are many ways you can utilize tether canceling. To perform a tether cancel, allow your Zair/clawshot to attatch to a ledge for a short moment, then tap down on the control stick. If you just tap the control stick down, you won't FF (fast fall) to your doom. And even if you do FF, either use a double jump or an aerial spin attack to the ledge. Don't sweetspot it (as in, don't grab the ledge before Link finishes his spin attack and position yourself so that the spin attack can hit your opponent) if you want to catch someone standing at the ledge by surprise. Lastly, if you either tether cancel quickly enough (by giving the control stick a quick tap downward) or double jump, this allows you to tether cancel a second time if you really want to dazzle and confuse an opponent. Don't tether cancel too often against better players though, or they'll eventually catch on and punish you for it.

There is a pretty neat trick here that you can perform with bombs. If you have a bomb in hand and tether to the ledge, you'll notice that Link drops the bomb. Well, if you're quick enough, you can tether cancel and catch the bomb with a normal aerial by pressing the grab button, or air dodging. So here's the trick: If you catch the bomb with a Dair, the bomb will explode and save you from self-destructing. Pretty nifty, huh?

#9:
Bomb Slides​

There are six variations of bombslides. Up throw, forward throw, back throw, and the fake-out versions of all of those. This tech is a bit trickier than the others, so bare with me here.

Up Throw & Up Throw Fake-out~
These two variations are by far the easiest to perform, with the other versions being quite a bit harder, which I'll soon get into. However, after learning how to perform these, the others shouldn't be very hard to understand. Anyways, here are the inputs needed to perform these variations: With a bomb in hand, dash throw > c-stick down > Z > analog stick up. All of these inputs must be done in a split second. The result should be in Link either throwing the bomb upwards and sliding a considerably long distance (being the normal up throw bomb slide), or in Link throwing the bomb forwards and then doing an up throw animation (being the up throw fake-out). If you end up with an up throw fake-out, then the time you took between inputting "c-stick down" and "Z up" was a tad longer than it is required for you to perform a normal up throw bomb slide (the same rules apply for forward throw and back throw bomb slide variations, so that you're aware).

However, the up throw fake-out isn't useless by any means. It allows you to approach someone whilst throwing a bomb, while at the same time allowing you to cover more space than by simply dash-throwing. And since you can get up close with the slide, follow-ups are easier. Not nearly as easy as with CQC Z-drops/bomb shines, but still pretty easy.

As for the use of normal up throw bomb slides, they allow you to close the gap between you and an opponent fairly quickly with the sheer amount of distance you slide in such a short amount of time. It's also Link's furthest sliding variation of bomb slide. You're even able to use this to approach with smashes, jabs, tilts, and grabs.

Forward Throw & Forward Throw Fake-out~
The inputs are mostly the same as the uthrow variations, but instead of simply inputting up, you'll need to input back, and then forward while hitting these sweet-spots with the control stick, as marked by the red lines:

The result should be in Link throwing the bomb forwards while sliding. The only difference between the normal forward throw bomb slide and the fake-out is that with the normal bomb slide, Link slides further (the fake-out has Link do his forward throw animation in some wierd way and doesn't go quite as far, but that doesn't really matter much). In my opinion, this variation isn't as useful or as practical, because you can easily get the same results and uses with the up throw fake-out, with the only benefit being that the normal forward throw bomb slide gives you more distance. Up throw fake-out is also way easier to perform.

Back Throw & Back Throw Fake-out~
The inputs are exactly the same as the forward throw variations outside the fact that the inputs for the control stick are in reverse. So instead of hitting the sweetspots back and then forwards, you'll need hit them forwards and then back. The result will be in Link either sliding forward while throwing the bomb back (being a normal back throw bomb slide), or in Link sliding forwards and throwing the bomb forwards, then doing a back throw animation (being a back throw fake-out).

As for their uses, the normal variation can be used in the same way you would a JC back throw, only that you can use all that extra slide to escape pressure from an opponent, leaving them having to deal with the bomb you just chucked at them. Sort of like how a lizard can detach its tail to distract a predetor, if you will. As for the fake-out variation, you're better off doing a forward throw bomb slide or an up throw fake-out unless you just feel like messing with an opponent's head. However with both back throw variations, you're able to slide off of edges. This is only because when sliding at the edge, the bomb throw is what turns you away. Think back to how Mario's FLUUD can push you off of a platform or stage if you aren't facing the edge, for an example. This allows you to go for some surprise gimps and edge guards.

#10:
Tether Canceled Bomb Shines​

As for tether canceled bomb shines, this tech can be performed by jumping off the stage, and while having the bomb directly inside an opponent's hurtbox, tether cancel. Your bomb will hit your opponent, and they will not be able to react. The most important thing that is necessary to perform a tether canceled bomb shine is that obviously, you need to be facing the stage. After a successful hit, you're free to convert this into an aerial if you know where they go. I find that this tech has a lot of potential, so I suggest that everyone experiment with this. Especially with meteor bombs in play.

Jump Canceling Techniques
Techniques that involve canceling your jump into certain moves. These moves include Link's bomb throws, Up Smash and Up Special, which I will get into here.

#11:
JC (Jump Canceled) Bomb Throws (MUST KNOW)​

Probably the 2nd easiest AT in Link's arsenal, but nevertheless, this tech is still going to serve a lot of use to you. As for how to perform it, all that you need to do it, as the name suggests, press the jump button with a bomb in your hand. Not a second later, while moving forward (walking or running), throw the bomb in any given direction. Be it up, forwards, of behind you to catch a chasing opponent off guard. The result will be Link sliding in the direction you were going more than usual. For maximum sliding with the JC, try running. The slide also helps with combos and approaching sin you can get up close to a foe by the time you perform the throw, and you can get closer to the opponent (not including characters with fast, damaging projectiles) while not having to worry as much about getting punished unless you're simply just way too close

#12:
Up Smash & Spin Attack OoS ​

If you've already taken a look at JC bomb throws, chances are that you'll have no problem with this. Since Link is able to jump directly out of his shield, this allows for any jump cancel-able moves to be performed directly OoS as well. The most notable moves with this ability when it comes to being performed OoS are up smash and spin attack. These allow Link to punish people hard for hitting his shield. As for how to perform; While you're shielding, press the jump button and the immediately do an up smash or up special.
~More More ATs to Come~

 

[Elessar]

@ DarkDeity15 FYI, bomb guess are 4 seconds now, not 6. You should fix that.

 

[GabePR]

Nice thread keep the good work.

 

[Dumbfire]

@Zelkam knows the exact fuse time. Also, the Jab 'infinite' is, in no way, an infinite -- you'll make Foxy angry again. It's just a lock. I recommend adding the percentages from the Metagame thread that Foxy recently linked to again. (They are also the percentages from which point Utilt is confirmed.) You might want to add more detailed input information, including the c-stick tilt technique for the jab lock.

Next up to add would be bombsliding, including the image FSK posted demonstrating the exact sweetspot for the reverse and non-fakeout forward ones.

The problem with the reverse one is the position of the control stick it needs to be very precise. In brawl there was a general area the control stick needed to be to perform a reverse bombslide. In smash 4 its more of a sweet spot. Here is a picture highlighting the position of the sweetspot (As far as I can remember)

http://imgur.com/KbJjzqr

This thread has all the neccessary bombslide info, including recommended input methods, it would just be summarizing: http://smashboards.com/threads/question-wii-u-bombslide.379029/

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well it should not come as a surprise that I have a few things to say. I'll try to keep my points confined to the information provided and stay away from talking about any stylistic or structural choices you've made in laying out the information as this is your thread. Just know that I would have done things very differently. Actually most of the things I wanted to say fall under this category somehow... Ok, so I have to say something. I would consider imposing some kind of structure, at all, when listing the AT's and also within them when you're writing them up.

Mention the fact that the bomb's hitbox is actually out for longer when it is soft thrown. Mention that it is good for catching landings as it stays out for a bit in the same small area while bouncing to a stop. Mention that it can be used to make the bombs fall off the edge and cover areas that you wouldn't normally be able to from that distance. Mention the fact that you will need to cook the bombs for a bit every now and then if the opponent wants to use the bombs themselves. And please, if you do nothing else, mention that they can be soft thrown in the same direction as your run by interrupting a turn-around/pivot with a Jump and then cancelling that jump by throwing the bomb backwards in the same direction as your initial run.

Mention the fact that while bombs won't detect hurtboxes while sitting on the ground, they will continue to absorb damage which can nullify some projectiles. The instant Z-drop needs to be it's own AT, in fact, you need to mention all of the various ways that you can Z-drop without using Zair, not just immediately out of a SH/FH. It wouldn't hurt to add that you can get guaranteed phoenix bombs by instant Z-dropping and then immediately catching the bomb which incidentally is an IZAC which is also not here (yet).

I wasn't aware that 'bomb jumping' was an AT... I mean obviously I knew about it and use it all the time, but yeah. I guess it can stay. Also from memory, it was 3.66 seconds. It wouldn't hurt to add that the short fuse practically gives as a guaranteed second up-B every time we get hit off stage so long as we pull a bomb immediately. So basically emphasise that point.

You say "If performed fast enough" but you need to be specific that you're talking about flicking down on the joystick and releasing it immediately. Whatever. I don't even like this tech XD

I literally twitched when I saw the word 'infinite'. Remove please. More details required. Like how you can do any action on the same frame out of a Jab1 except another Jab 1, i.e. the crouch is only truly necessary for doing another Jab 1. And mention that you can Jab out of the very first frame of the crouching animation, i.e. you can Jab well before you actually see any 'crouch'. And mention the exact method of performing the diagonal a-stick method while holding down on the joystick. And the 'suck in' properties should be worded better. There is a point in the Jab in which on either side there are hitboxes that are angled inwardly toward each other creating a space in the middle where it is for all intents and purposes impossible to escape under the right percent conditions.


Well I did offer for you to run it by me first XD.

 

[Elessar]

I'll give some of the criticism that God won't give regarding structure but not out of taste, rather function. Stay away from walls of text, they hinder understanding. Include screenshots, pictures, diagrams, etc. Also, consider using spoiler tags as to collapse the description of each AT and just have the name showing that way the thread becomes easier to navigate and finding the AT you're looking for also becomes easier. Remember that a thread has to be pleasant to look at or else it becomes hard to understand no matter how you explain the inputs.

 

[Knife8193]

Do any of you find bombsliding to be practical? I like forward bombsliding followd by u-tilt to possibly start a juggle, but most of the time I JCT bombs because its much easier to pull off.

 

[DarkDeity15]

The ATs I'm currently working on including are deemed "Major ATs". These include the ones mentioned in the OP, then bombslides, up b & usmash OoS, bomb tosses OoS, B-reverse & wavebouncing, jump cancel throws, sourspot nair/arrow locks, and instant Z-dropping (as suggested by @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive ). I'll also be adding a couple of new ATs I discovered for myself (and yes, they are NEW ATs). Fellow Link mains will be very pleased, I'm sure.

However I have some problems with instant Z-dropping. At the end of the line, it's still just another way to drop the bomb, correct? At best, all it really needs is a sub-section under ATs 2 & 3 (might seperate them at some point).

That of course isn't all I have planned. There will also be a section where "minor ATs" will be listed. Some of these techs will have a limited level of practicality and some aren't very important but still are useful, while others are mostly meant for flash or are somewhere in between those. I was considering bomb sliding as one of them until recently because I found it incredibly difficult to perform all variations consistently besides uthrow and uthrow fakeout, but I could just be doing it wrong (which is why I'm gunna need some more info on them).

The minor ATs category will include phoenix bombing, dance trotting, bomb smashing, bomb f-tilting (need info), FF Dthrow bomb catching, gale guarding, and falling up b.

I had chosen pheonix bombing as a minor AT due to it's low practicality in an actual 1v1 match due to how frame perfect you need to be. Dispite how cool they are to pull off, I just don't see much happening with it. And with so many possible situations you'd have to deal with first, landing a phoenix bomb is almost impossible, even with the method Foxy mentioned (I actually know of a better method).


Now, as for the new ATs...

What if Sm4sh Link had a shine? Oh wait. He already has something like that...

I pretty much jizzed when I first realized what this was capable of. This AT has been sitting right under our noses since Sm4sh 3DS' release, yet it has loads of potential you won't believe (unless you fellow Link mains already know about it, in which case it's a mystery as to how I haven't heard anyone talking about it). I have no idea how this AT has been overlooked for so long. I'll call it Link's "shine" for now.

So let's get right to the Chetaeu Romani & heart containers here. Literally all you have to do is z-drop a bomb on someone while being close enough to the ground, so that Link's Zair doesn't appear or at least barely does. Either that, or you can instant Z-drop it. The bomb will hit an opponent so quickly that they won't have any time to react if you're right on top of them. It'll hit them as soon as it leaves Link's hand. I'm unsure how long it takes to do so, but last I remember, someone said that it was 1 frame, which is as fast as Melee shines.

This AT alone gives Link one of the best combo set-ups in the game. I'd say it even rivals Diddy's Dthrow in terms of effectiveness. The guaranteed combo options are pretty much endless depending on their % (I'll assume that DI plays a role as well, but you can combo an opponent anyways if you read it) and you can true combo the bomb with a Fair well above 130% on Mario. It's essentially like cross between Falco & Wolf's shines in PM in terms of the angle it sends people, only that it obviously has more KBG overall. And yes, you can combo Link's "shine" into a meteor dair (pretty sure bombs > Dair was already a thing though). Instant Z-dropping makes this AT better since you aren't forced to land because of Zair, and because you don't have to deal with the tiny amount of endlag it gives you if you land (though it won't lag at all if done late enough). My only problem with this is that I can't perform instant Z-drops consistantly if my life depended on it lol.

Combo potential isn't the only reason why Link's "shine" is amazing. Say your opponent is below you, expecting you to come down with a FF aerial, and instead you FF Z-drop with a bomb instead. Even if your opponent grabs you, chances are that you would've dropped the bomb already before hand. The bomb will free you pretty much immediately from the grab. If an opponent tries pretty much anything OoS, the bomb will likely hit them. This means that they only have a few ways to avoid being hit by the bomb in this situation. Staying in sheild, spot dodging, rolling, and (worst case scenario) catching the bomb OoS. But by then you're already close enough to where that still isn't a very good option anyways. All of these options can be punished by Link pretty easily.

And one more thing...Gay can do it too. Fair true combos pretty easily at higher %'s and can get him some early kills...so yay for Gay mains. I'm expecting this AT to seriously boost both Link and Gay's placements in the teir list, whenever one does release in the U.S./Europe. I don't trust the Japanese teir list at all lol.

Link might be the answer to Diddy after all. But there is one potentially glaring issue here. It's that this might actually make Link overpowered. Link's shine can combo into a dair meteor extremely easily, and possibly allows Link to get kills as early as 50% or lower. Can someone test to see if it's possible to save yourself with DI?

The second AT is less exiting, so I'll save it for the OP. What do you guys think? I'll being making a vid for this soon. Feel free to test this out for yourselves in the meantime.

 

[Sabaca]

I don't think it is as good as you think it is , since it is hard to get that close to the opponent without getting hit , so it is hard to pull it off. dair spike can kill even earlier if the opponent has a bad recovery. Mario can die around 20% to bomb->dair.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I don't think it is as good as you think it is , since it is hard to get that close to the opponent without getting hit , so it is hard to pull it off. dair spike can kill even earlier if the opponent has a bad recovery. Mario can die around 20% to bomb->dair.

Well don't Fox or Falco need to approach in order to land a shine in Melee/PM? This is pretty much the same thing, only without the wavedashing lol.

 

[Lawz.]

Well don't Fox or Falco need to approach in order to land a shine in Melee/PM? This is pretty much the same thing, only without the wavedashing lol.

They land shines from landing aerials first, and then cancel into shine to continue the combo. Different game, different mechanic.

This is suggesting that you be literally on top of an opponent (a range Link is not that strong in).

Comparing it with Diddy's dthrow is just...well..wrong. It is nowhere near as practical. Diddy's whole metagame is to open up his opponents and pressure up close, while Link generally wants to keep distance and zone. Link certainly does not have an easier time landing this "shine" compared to Diddy landing a grab. Not even to mention that Link must be above someone to do this, again where Link is probably at his weakest.

In the scenario you're speaking about, where the opponent doesn't have options when Link drops a bomb from above, Diddy can easily shield the bomb and uair OoS as Link has now placed himself above or next to Diddy, where he wants you. The bomb also does not deal enough shield stun to keep you out of harm's way.

I think you're overestimating this "AT" far too much.

 

[DarkDeity15]

They land shines from landing aerials first, and then cancel into shine to continue the combo. Different game, different mechanic.

This is suggesting that you be literally on top of an opponent (a range Link is not that strong in).

Comparing it with Diddy's dthrow is just...well..wrong. It is nowhere near as practical. Diddy's whole metagame is to open up his opponents and pressure up close, while Link generally wants to keep distance and zone. Link certainly does not have an easier time landing this "shine" compared to Diddy landing a grab. Not even to mention that Link must be above someone to do this, again where Link is probably at his weakest.

In the scenario you're speaking about, where the opponent doesn't have options when Link drops a bomb from above, Diddy can easily shield the bomb and uair OoS as Link has now placed himself above or next to Diddy, where he wants you. The bomb also does not deal enough shield stun to keep you out of harm's way.

I think you're overestimating this "AT" far too much.

I don't think you fully read what was said. But to refute, the second Diddy jumps, Link could already get the hell out of there if he wanted to or simply sheild the Uair, because Z-dropping the bomb has a miniscule amount of lag, and no lag at all if Link were to drop the bomb late enough.

Edit: Link doesn't need to go in for very long in order to land a shine bomb. After all, it has 1 frame of start-up.

 

[Lawz.]

I don't think you fully read what was said. But to refute the second he jumps, Link could already get the hell out of there if he wanted to or simply sheild the Uair, because Z-dropping the bomb has a miniscule amount of lag, and no lag at all if Link were to drop the bomb late enough.

You realize that for Link to actually combo from this, he has to commit to doing a move assuming the bomb hits, right? Not even mentioning that if Link does the instant z-drop, that the bomb does nothing more than bounce off of a shield as a soft throw…so they can easily shield this and then uair to catch the bomb, rendering this glorified "shine" almost useless. The only time the bomb will explode on contact is if they don't shield, and in this game, where approaching with dash > shield is really safe, this won't happen often.

So, yeah Link could "get the hell out of there", but then this AT becomes nothing more than a z-dropped bomb.

-This AT alone gives Link one of the best combo set-ups in the game. I'd say it even rivals Diddy's Dthrow in terms of effectiveness.

Link might be the answer to Diddy after all. But there is one potentially glaring issue here. It's that this might actually make Link overpowered.

I read everything that was said, and this is what I have the biggest issue with. Again, you are overestimating this way too much.

EDIT: I'm not trying to come off as a D-bag or anything, I just think that you're sending the wrong message here.

 

[DarkDeity15]

You realize that for Link to actually combo from this, he has to commit to doing a move assuming the bomb hits, right? Not even mentioning that if Link does the instant z-drop, that the bomb does nothing more than bounce off of a shield as a soft throw…so they can easily shield this and then uair to catch the bomb, rendering this glorified "shine" almost useless. The only time the bomb will explode on contact is if they don't shield, and in this game, where approaching with dash > shield is really safe, this won't happen often.

So, yeah Link could "get the hell out of there", but then this AT becomes nothing more than a z-dropped bomb.



I read everything that was said, and this is what I have the biggest issue with. Again, you are overestimating this way too much.

EDIT: I'm not trying to come off as a D-bag or anything, I just think that you're sending the wrong message here.

Oh, really now? Why don't you test out the shine bomb > dair meteor combo and see how stupidly early it can kill? I even asked if anyone could test to try and see if it's possible to DI out of this combo. I'm not able to because I don't have anyone to lab with. The last thing I want is for Link to have some stupid combo like that, so I really want someone to prove me wrong.

As for overestimating bomb shines' potential, I don't think I am. The amount of stuff you can convert this into is just way to good to brush aside. Depending on %, a bomb shine can combo into jab, Zair, Utilt, Ftilt, Usmash, Fsmash, Nair, Fair, Dair, Uair and Bair. And most of Link's aerials can true combo Mario at well over 120%. You're really telling me that this AT isn't enough to be a great discovery at best? You can't be serious.

Edit: And no, Link doesn't have to commit immediately after dropping the bomb. It has enough hitstun to the point where you don't need to do that. Especially at higher %s. And it's cool dude. It's just that I don't think you're seeing what this tech is capable of.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

The ATs I'm currently working on including are deemed "Major ATs". These include the ones mentioned in the OP, then bombslides, up b & usmash OoS, bomb tosses OoS, B-reverse & wavebouncing, jump cancel throws, sourspot nair/arrow locks, and instant Z-dropping (as suggested by @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive ). I'll also be adding a couple of new ATs I discovered for myself (and yes, they are NEW ATs). Fellow Link mains will be very pleased, I'm sure.

However I have some problems with instant Z-dropping. At the end of the line, it's still just another way to drop the bomb, correct? At best, all it really needs is a sub-section under ATs 2 & 3 (might seperate them at some point).

That of course isn't all I have planned. There will also be a section where "minor ATs" will be listed. Some of these techs will have a limited level of practicality and some aren't very important but still are useful, while others are mostly meant for flash or are somewhere in between those. I was considering bomb sliding as one of them until recently because I found it incredibly difficult to perform all variations consistently besides uthrow and uthrow fakeout, but I could just be doing it wrong (which is why I'm gunna need some more info on them).

The minor ATs category will include phoenix bombing, dance trotting, bomb smashing, bomb f-tilting (need info), FF Dthrow bomb catching, gale guarding, and falling up b.

I had chosen pheonix bombing as a minor AT due to it's low practicality in an actual 1v1 match due to how frame perfect you need to be. Dispite how cool they are to pull off, I just don't see much happening with it. And with so many possible situations you'd have to deal with first, landing a phoenix bomb is almost impossible, even with the method Foxy mentioned (I actually know of a better method).


Now, as for the new ATs...

What if Sm4sh Link had a shine? Oh wait. He already has something like that...

I pretty much ****ed when I first realized what this was capable of. This AT has been sitting right under our noses since Sm4sh 3DS' release, yet it has loads of potential you won't believe (unless you fellow Link mains already know about it, in which case it's a mystery as to how I haven't heard anyone talking about it). I have no idea how this AT has been overlooked for so long. I'll call it Link's "shine" for now.

So let's get right to the Chetaeu Romani & heart containers here. Literally all you have to do is z-drop a bomb on someone while being close enough to the ground, so that Link's Zair doesn't appear or at least barely does. Either that, or you can instant Z-drop it. The bomb will hit an opponent so quickly that they won't have any time to react if you're right on top of them. It'll hit them as soon as it leaves Link's hand. I'm unsure how long it takes to do so, but last I remember, someone said that it was 1 frame, which is as fast as Melee shines.

This AT alone gives Link one of the best combo set-ups in the game. I'd say it even rivals Diddy's Dthrow in terms of effectiveness. The guaranteed combo options are pretty much endless depending on their % (I'll assume that DI plays a role as well, but you can combo an opponent anyways if you read it) and you can true combo the bomb with a Fair well above 130% on Mario. It's essentially like cross between Falco & Wolf's shines in PM in terms of the angle it sends people, only that it obviously has more KBG overall. And yes, you can combo Link's "shine" into a meteor dair (pretty sure bombs > Dair was already a thing though). Instant Z-dropping makes this AT better since you aren't forced to land because of Zair, and because you don't have to deal with the tiny amount of endlag it gives you if you land (though it won't lag at all if done late enough). My only problem with this is that I can't perform instant Z-drops consistantly if my life depended on it lol.

Combo potential isn't the only reason why Link's "shine" is amazing. Say your opponent is below you, expecting you to come down with a FF aerial, and instead you FF Z-drop with a bomb instead. Even if your opponent grabs you, chances are that you would've dropped the bomb already before hand. The bomb will free you pretty much immediately from the grab. If an opponent tries pretty much anything OoS, the bomb will likely hit them. This means that they only have a few ways to avoid being hit by the bomb in this situation. Staying in sheild, spot dodging, rolling, and (worst case scenario) catching the bomb OoS. But by then you're already close enough to where that still isn't a very good option anyways. All of these options can be punished by Link pretty easily.

And one more thing...Gay can do it too. Fair true combos pretty easily at higher %'s and can get him some early kills...so yay for Gay mains. I'm expecting this AT to seriously boost both Link and Gay's placements in the teir list, whenever one does release in the U.S./Europe. I don't trust the Japanese teir list at all lol.

Link might be the answer to Diddy after all. But there is one potentially glaring issue here. It's that this might actually make Link overpowered. Link's shine can combo into a dair meteor extremely easily, and possibly allows Link to get kills as early as 50% or lower. Can someone test to see if it's possible to save yourself with DI?

The second AT is less exiting, so I'll save it for the OP. What do you guys think? I'll being making a vid for this soon. Feel free to test this out for yourselves in the meantime.

A couple of things.

This idea of the z-drop being used as a 1 to 2 frame lagless attack that links into other moves was already mentioned by me, so I guess I already knew. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-15#post-18644984 It's a shame, I was really looking forward to a surprise.
The only difference I can see is that you're z-dropping it just before you touch the ground instead, which, while easier to perform, suffers from the Zair landing lag and doesn't let you act the very next frame like the rising version and leaves you with less mobility in the air with a certain time at which you must do it as opposed to being able to run in and use it whenever you want. The only reason why I brought it up at all in that post was because it utilised the fact that the bomb is z-dropped without the Zair. It makes sense to combine the new bomb mechanic that makes it so the bomb doesn't hurt us when it blows up on an opponent with a lagless z-drop, but unfortunately our z-drop mechanics got changed too, and then we found ways around it, and then I brought up what this allows us to do.
You remind me of myself some years back. I used to get excited and hyped over stuff like this and only much much later would I realise that it wasn't as big of a deal as what I first thought. The point is, try not to take it too harshly if people try to point out the flaws. That's something I wish I could have told myself back then. Believe it or not, we're not against you or ungrateful for the effort you're putting in. It's difficult to see that on the internet when all you see is words and the words are telling you you're wrong.

There was something else I wanted to say but I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

[DarkDeity15]

A couple of things.

This idea of the z-drop being used as a 1 to 2 frame lagless attack that links into other moves was already mentioned by me, so I guess I already knew. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-15#post-18644984 It's a shame, I was really looking forward to a surprise.
The only difference I can see is that you're z-dropping it just before you touch the ground instead, which, while easier to perform, suffers from the Zair landing lag and doesn't let you act the very next frame like the rising version and leaves you with less mobility in the air with a certain time at which you must do it as opposed to being able to run in and use it whenever you want. The only reason why I brought it up at all in that post was because it utilised the fact that the bomb is z-dropped without the Zair. It makes sense to combine the new bomb mechanic that makes it so the bomb doesn't hurt us when it blows up on an opponent with a lagless z-drop, but unfortunately our z-drop mechanics got changed too, and then we found ways around it, and then I brought up what this allows us to do.
You remind me of myself some years back. I used to get excited and hyped over stuff like this and only much much later would I realise that it wasn't as big of a deal as what I first thought. The point is, try not to take it too harshly if people try to point out the flaws. That's something I wish I could have told myself back then. Believe it or not, we're not against you or ungrateful for the effort you're putting in. It's difficult to see that on the internet when all you see is words and the words are telling you you're wrong.

There was something else I wanted to say but I guess it doesn't really matter.

You're wrong about one thing though. You actually are able to act immediately out of a regular Z-drop without experiencing any lag at all if you time it late enough. This is true, because you're able to shield immediately after the bomb leaves Link's hand. No lag whatsoever. But I suppose you're right there. I've made this mistake before in the PM Link boards. I had discovered a new tech only to find out that it was practically useless later on. But I feel that this time, it's a different story. Don't be disappointed yet, though. I have a few other things up my sleeve that you might like.

Here's one. Link can phoenix bomb more consistently with this method, as opposed to yours; To perform this method, you need to FF from about two jumps high. Throw the bomb down as soon as you begin, and simply catch the bomb on the ground. Practice this until you think your consistent enough with performing the catch so that if you fail the phoenix bomb, you don't look like a fool doing it (in fact, this makes you look quite stylish). When a character is standing below you, if timed correctly, the bomb will explode on their hurtbox just before you catch it again. While not exceptionally practical, I'm pretty sure that doing this to someone is the absolute last thing they'd expect you to do if you're above them lol.

To add on to this, if the bomb hits your opponent but you aren't able to phoenix bomb, you can always follow up with a utilt or usmash, which will literally work at any %.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

You're wrong about one thing though. You actually are able to act immediately out of a regular Z-drop without experiencing any lag at all if you time it late enough. This is true, because you're able to shield immediately after the bomb leaves Link's hand. No lag whatsoever. But I suppose you're right there. I've made this mistake before in the PM Link boards. I had discovered a new tech only to find out that it was practically useless later on. But I feel that this time, it's a different story. Don't be disappointed yet, though. I have a few other things up my sleeve that you might like.

Here's one. Link can phoenix bomb more consistently with this method, as opposed to yours; To perform this method, you need to FF from about two jumps high. Throw the bomb down as soon as you begin, and simply catch the bomb on the ground. Practice this until you think your consistent enough with performing the catch so that if you fail the phoenix bomb, you don't look like a fool doing it (in fact, this makes you look quite stylish). When a character is standing below you, if timed correctly, the bomb will explode on their hurtbox just before you catch it again. While not exceptionally practical, I'm pretty sure that doing this to someone is the absolute last thing they'd expect you to do if you're above them lol.

To add on to this, if the bomb hits your opponent but you aren't able to phoenix bomb, you can always follow up with a utilt or usmash, which will literally work at any %.

Huh, well I'll be, you're totally right about the lagless z-drop as you land if you time it perfectly. I don't even know why this works, but I'm not complaining. I mean the timing becomes a similar issue to the rising one, but sure enough, you do skip those extra few landing lag frames of the Zair if you time the z-drop perfectly just before you land. That is news to me. You should mention this in the metagame thread too so I can quote it when I finally get time to catch up on it. That definitely makes the landing method more viable. I wouldn't mind seeing more serious discussion on close-up z-dropped bombs. I'm always open to persuasion, and there is a definite use for them.

Haha, now this other one is cool, if not admittedly probably impractical. You can do it out of a ledgehop to double jump easy enough, the FH to DJ requires more precise timing. I have a feeling it might be character height specific for the phoenix bomb effect though. I have no particular opinion about it being used competitively as of yet, but I do think it's cool. Something tells me Link may have been able to do this in Brawl too (? from memory anyway, though that was a while ago...) but it would have been a purely pointless trick back then anyway, whereas now with the new bomb mechanics, there is a potential use here. It's the same argument that made Bomb fake-outs that much better for Toon in this game, and this is arguably a kind of BFO that only Link can do.

 

[Sabaca]

The difference are the Movement Options. Fox and Falco in melee pm can dash around and are really fast at it and are close enough within a fraction of a second or combo into it. While Link has to jump in. So if your opponent is reacting aggressivly to your approach you get hit instead of landing the combo. Chars with good out of shield options are immune to this as an approach since they can shield and OoS something before you zdrop once you are close enough since in this situation Link has no option that is fast enough to deal with it.
So you gotta hit it by reading or punishing , anything else would be too unsave. I agree that it is an awesome combo setup when you actually land it , though you have almost simmilar combo potential when bombsliding into the opponent.

Another AT that you can use as an even better Combo SetUp (except close the ledge where you can spike with instant z-drop) is Bombthrow into footstool into nair lock. Comboing it into uncharged fsmash deals at least 31% damage , 35% if the bomb hit indirect. Ofcourse it is also more % possible since you can follow up into anything and choose whatever combo is possible at the current %.
When using it by doing a FullHop into Downward Bombthrow you can savely try hitting it whenever you assume your opponent doing something else than shielding wich gives it a great chance of actually hitting it multiple times during a game.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's certainly true that Link's lack of comparable speed makes it so that something with such a small hitbox becomes a much worse tool. There's no denying that. And instead of activating instantly you need to either jump first and z-drop immediately (so it's very quick but not literally instant in this case) or jump first and then use it as you land (instant in one sense, very slow in another). I can't see it being the kind of thing you would use in the neutral. I'm thinking that it's the sort of thing you'd only pull out once your in an advantageous position and the opponent is already under pressure such that you are actually able to get in close. It's a great very close quarters tool in terms of frame data and what combos out of it, but you'd need to be able to justify doing it over simply throwing the bomb; so let's do just that. One thing that these two kinds of z-drops clearly have over throwing a bomb is the fact that they are lagless. This is kind of a big deal and should be considered. Throwing a bomb at someone in close quarters will likely get you shield grabbed or something, but laglessly z-dropping a bomb? Well you are free to immediately take any action that you wish to avoid any counter options they might take if you mess it up or if the bomb is shielded. This is why I'm thinking that there may in fact be a place for close quarters z-drops. I'm not heavily favouring this side at this point or anything, so feel free to disagree. I'm just being open minded at this stage.

 

[Elessar]

The problem with cq zdrops is that you already need to have a bomb in hand since you won't have time to pull it out with an opponent close by. Not only that, but the shine as DarkDeity15 suggests is extremely situation and would work only once. The was I see it, it's no different than approaching with a nair on shield. You'll get grabbed immediately, specially since bombs which bounced on shield don't detect hurt boxes anymore, so your opponent can now even step on the bomb and suffer no consequence.
It's not as safe nor useful as you make it seem. It's more of a gimmick than a serious AT imo.

 

[Dumbfire]

Do any of you find bombsliding to be practical? I like forward bombsliding followd by u-tilt to possibly start a juggle, but most of the time I JCT bombs because its much easier to pull off.

Yes. You can get confirmed jabs or tilts out of a forward bombslide, and you gain a lot of distance with the upwards one. It covers a vertical space above you in the air fast while putting you in an aerial pressuring position in front of that bombs' vertical trajectory. The reverse ones aren't that useful -- just JCT throwing (for soft bomb throws too) will serve you fine there. But note the forward one will make you gain a lot of distance too: when the opponent is off-stage for example I can throw the bomb to force him to recover a certain way and at the same time cover the distance from the edge of the stage fast. And since people shield often when expecting bombs, you can get close fast to a shielded opponent. I don't grab often (it's too dangerous) but it is a fine pressuring position.

Scizor uses the Uthrow one very well, have a look at these sets:

Scizor vs Perfect_Edge
http://www.twitch.tv/royalapplz1/b/640316046?t=2h06m21s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1ADRD_G8s4

Scizor vs OrochiWolf
http://www.twitch.tv/royalapplz1/b/640316046 @3:17:46

Scizor/ vs S2H
http://www.twitch.tv/royalapplz1/b/640316046?t=3h52m38s

We don't have examplary footage of the forward one yet, but I forward bomb slide a lot and it never disappoints.

About the Z-drop bombs: I've used it when anticipating rolls, but you may as well Dsmash or Jab (lock/cancel) then. Still I'll try and use it when I'm in close range combat with a bomb once. Maybe the Gays were right about something!

 

[DarkDeity15]

Guys, I'm beginning to understand now why Link is forced to Zair when dropping a bomb in the air/off stage. Imagine what bomb shining would be capable of if Zair wasn't forced after a z-drop...

 

[Dumbfire]

Guys, I'm beginning to understand now why Link is forced to Zair when dropping a bomb in the air/off stage. Imagine what bomb shining would be capable of if Zair wasn't forced after a z-drop...

You know, that may very well be why they did that -- I never figured! The gimping potential

 

[FSK]

Then why does it also happens with ZSS and Samus?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Then why does it also happens with ZSS and Samus?

No idea.

But here is the last of what new theories I've come up with;

If a person were to shield your (either the lagless normally Z-dropped or Zairless Z-dropped) bomb shine, what if you caught it as soon as it bounced off their shield, and threw it back again? Would they be stuck in shield stun long enough so that the bomb could hit them again? If that's so, is the bomb shine's shield stun enough for you to convert into Dsmash, jab, utilt, or even a grab? Hell, even Zairless Z-drop > Z catch > regular lagless Z-drop > jab/Dsmash or something? This is potentially huge if proven true, because that pretty much emulates what shield pressuring with shines was like in Melee/PM.

Lastly, if you SH and Zairless Z-drop the bomb to have it explode on someone, could it be possible to grab the bomb with an aerial that same instant? Likely. Izaw was able catch Zairless Z-dropped bombs with aerials pretty consistantly in his Art of Link vid, so I don't see how it can't be done. It'll take an insane amount of timing and precision (possibly making it the hardest AT in the game), but if done consistently, this could be good. If this is a thing, it needs a name. Phoenix bomb shining/phoenix shine bombing (PBS/PSB) sounds fitting to me, because that's pretty much what it is. Could this be classified as it's own AT though?

Anyways, can someone test these for me? I've run into some family-related issues recently, so I won't be able to lab for a long time. Unfortunately, this also means that I won't be able to finish the AT videos, so someone with actual capturing equipment might want to start on one instead. Pretty please?

Nice thread keep the good work.

Gabe? Is that you? If so, I never knew you had a Smashboards account. If not, mah b.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Lastly, if you SH and Zairless Z-drop the bomb to have it explode on someone, could it be possible to grab the bomb with an aerial that same instant? Likely. Izaw was able catch Zairless Z-dropped bombs with aerials pretty consistantly in his Art of Link vid, so I don't see how it can't be done. It'll take an insane amount of timing and precision (possibly making it the hardest AT in the game), but if done consistently, this could be good. If this is a thing, it needs a name. Phoenix bomb shining/phoenix shine bombing (PBS/PSB) sounds fitting to me, because that's pretty much what it is. Could this be classified as it's own AT though?

It's called the IZAC. What do you think I keep talking about XD? You need to read up on my threads more.

Edit: Oh and as to the other thing, I think you highly over estimate the amount of shield-stun there is in this game.

 

[DarkDeity15]

It's called the IZAC. What do you think I keep talking about XD? You need to read up on my threads more.

Edit: Oh and as to the other thing, I think you highly over estimate the amount of shield-stun there is in this game.

Lol yup, fixed. Thanks for keeping track of the OP.

Just saying tho, the bomb in these instances would be hitting super rapidly. Kinda almost as fast as a multi-hit move.

Edit: And guess what, people? I just realized that Link can bomb shine offstage by tether canceling! So much for you not liking tether canceling, Foxy. I can already imagine the follow-ups... @ Dumbfire

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Amusingly enough, with all this talk about the instant z-drop I was able to find a use for it in the metagame thread to allow us to chain Nair locks together.

Ok, to give you an idea of how little shield-stun a z-dropped bomb inflicts, I'm not even sure that it inflicts any shield-stun XD.

There is some good news though. You may remember a little while ago that I made a post in the metagame thread that said something to the effect of 'if the bomb is powershielded by the opponent it will remain active against them, effectively punishing people for powershielding'. Well it would seem that an instant z-dropped bomb dropped on the way up (dropped as you are jumping) that is dropped in an opponent's shield will work the same way even if it was not powershielded. This does not work for the landing z-drop method or for throwing bombs inside shields. I have no idea what makes the rising instant z-drop special.
This is indeed good news for CQC Z-drops as a viable option, at least for the rising variant anyway, because the bomb will remain active if it is dropped within a shield even if that shield is not a powershield (for 'reasons'...).
I'll remember to add this information when I add the quote about powershielding bombs to the OP of the metagame thread.

There's still a lot that needs to be fixed in the OP, but I'll wait till you've addressed the points I've already made in my first post before I make any further comment. It won't be a quick fix. If you have any questions feel free to PM me. In fact just PM me anyway; don't simply assume that I think you've addressed the points I made sufficiently. I'm willing to help you with this thread, but I need to be convinced that you're willing to accept my help.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Amusingly enough, with all this talk about the instant z-drop I was able to find a use for it in the metagame thread to allow us to chain Nair locks together.

Ok, to give you an idea of how little shield-stun a z-dropped bomb inflicts, I'm not even sure that it inflicts any shield-stun XD.

There is some good news though. You may remember a little while ago that I made a post in the metagame thread that said something to the effect of 'if the bomb is powershielded by the opponent it will remain active against them, effectively punishing people for powershielding'. Well it would seem that an instant z-dropped bomb dropped on the way up (dropped as you are jumping) that is dropped in an opponent's shield will work the same way even if it was not powershielded. This does not work for the landing z-drop method or for throwing bombs inside shields. I have no idea what makes the rising instant z-drop special.
This is indeed good news for CQC Z-drops as a viable option, at least for the rising variant anyway, because the bomb will remain active if it is dropped within a shield even if that shield is not a powershield (for 'reasons'...).
I'll remember to add this information when I add the quote about powershielding bombs to the OP of the metagame thread.

There's still a lot that needs to be fixed in the OP, but I'll wait till you've addressed the points I've already made in my first post before I make any further comment. It won't be a quick fix. If you have any questions feel free to PM me. In fact just PM me anyway; don't simply assume that I think you've addressed the points I made sufficiently. I'm willing to help you with this thread, but I need to be convinced that you're willing to accept my help.

Wait. CQC Z-drops? Is that what you decided to name it? If so, what does CQC stand for? Doesn't sound as intimidating as "bomb shining" lol.

 

[Zerker]

Wait. CQC Z-drops? Is that what you decided to name it? If so, what does CQC stand for? Doesn't sound as intimidating as "bomb shining" lol.

I'm assuming CQC stands for Close-Quarters-Combat.

Anyways, I tried to do an aerial to catch the bomb after a Z-airless bomb drop, but I could only get Link to pick up the bomb after he had landed. I haven't tried in slow-mo yet, though. So it might be possible and I'm just too slow.

After testing CQC z-drops with FG scrubs and more competitive friends, I can indeed confirm that this new trick is the bomb. (lame pun)

Jokes aside, this thing is extremely potent -- I've managed to use it to rack up damage and lead into KOs more easily than just simply tossing the bomb at my opponent's feet.

I wouldn't open with this right off the bat, though -- condition people to get used to shield nairs and grabbing.
And then drop a bomb on them with this. (Hur, more lame puns.)

 

[DarkDeity15]

I'm assuming CQC stands for Close-Quarters-Combat.

Anyways, I tried to do an aerial to catch the bomb after a Z-airless bomb drop, but I could only get Link to pick up the bomb after he had landed. I haven't tried in slow-mo yet, though. So it might be possible and I'm just too slow.

After testing CQC z-drops with FG scrubs and more competitive friends, I can indeed confirm that this new trick is the bomb. (lame pun)

Jokes aside, this thing is extremely potent -- I've managed to use it to rack up damage and lead into KOs more easily than just simply tossing the bomb at my opponent's feet.

I wouldn't open with this right off the bat, though -- condition people to get used to shield nairs and grabbing.
And then drop a bomb on them with this. (Hur, more lame puns.)

Glad someone could make use of this tech. And yeah, It's definitely because you're too slow. I have the same issue as well. For proof that it's possible, just go and check out Izaw's Art of Link vid again. He does it pretty consistantly at some point I believe.

All in favor for the name "bomb shine", say "Yeh". Those not in favor, say "nerp".

 

[Sabaca]

In the metagame thread it was talked about dropping the bomb while landing and then grabbing the opponent so that he takes extra damage by the bomb. And it was said it might be good really good mixup. You can use the instant zdrop to make this mixup more efficient.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yes, I used the term 'CQC Z-drops' to refer to the tactic of using either the Instant Z-drop or the lagless landing z-drop (whatever you want to call it) in close quarters combat. CQC is a common fighting game term.

It was already a well established fact that the Instant Z-drop can be used in CQC as I mentioned in the metagame thread, so no, bomb shine would not be appropriate as it was already given a name. Read from this post onwards if you want to see the history of the discovery and applications of the Instant Z-drop http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...esearch-lab-and-at-list.380910/#post-18576769, the second paragraph of this post in particular http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...esearch-lab-and-at-list.380910/#post-18582042, otherwise there is the write up in the second post of the thread as part of the OP that brings the information together.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Yes, I used the term 'CQC Z-drops' to refer to the tactic of using either the Instant Z-drop or the lagless landing z-drop (whatever you want to call it) in close quarters combat. CQC is a common fighting game term.

It was already a well established fact that the Instant Z-drop can be used in CQC as I mentioned in the metagame thread, so no, bomb shine would not be appropriate as it was already given a name. Read from this post onwards if you want to see the history of the discovery and applications of the Instant Z-drop http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...esearch-lab-and-at-list.380910/#post-18576769, the second paragraph of this post in particular http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...esearch-lab-and-at-list.380910/#post-18582042, otherwise there is the write up in the second post that brings the information together.

Thanks, I'll be sure to change up the info in the op then. As for the name "instant Z-drop"...It's a bad name. It can be easily confused with CQC Z-drops. Wouldn't you think "Zairless Z-drop" would be more appropriate?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well there are many ways to do a Zairless Z-drop, and considering that there was already the IZAC (Instant Z-drop Aerial Catch), and considering also that the way to perform the Instant Z-drop is basically the exact same way to do the IZAC minus the aerial catch part, I made a judgement call that Instant Z-drop was better suited and fit in with the already established tech names.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Well there are many ways to do a Zairless Z-drop, and considering that there was already the IZAC (Instant Z-drop Aerial Catch), and considering also that the way to perform the Instant Z-drop is basically the exact same way to do the IZAC minus the aerial catch part, I made a judgement call that Instant Z-drop was better suited and fit in with the already established tech names.

It's actually kinda the opposite imo. One can easily think back to the several ways to CQC Z-drop and think of "instant Z-drops". It's not like anyone outside of high level Link mains know about these techs anyways, so it's not too late to change it to something better. And isn't instant Z-droping just the jumping Z-drop? Ya know, the one that has kinda strict timing to perform? The only thing I can recall that is also "Zairless" is the lagless normal Z-drop.

 

[Sabaca]

This is getting really confusing.
Instant Z-drop , is zdropping instantly when jumping. Following it up with an aerial immidietly makes you catch it again. This is an IZAC wich is an established term. So the correct term for an Instant Z-drop has to be Instant Z-drop like FIOD already mentioned.
What you want to call "bomb shine" is having the excact same effect as the Instant Z-drop , but you are z dropping instantly when landing instead of jumping. I'd refer to it as Landing Instant Z-drop (wich we could call LIZ and also we can immidietly jump again to catch it with an aerial making it an LIZAC), FIOD refered to it as "lagless landing z-drop"
Those names are good because they are logical and describing the technique.
"CQC Z-drop" is not the name of an technique. CQC is only signalising , that it (the z-drop) is used in"Close Quarter Combat"

 

[DarkDeity15]

I just thought of something silly. If you were to tether CQC Z-drop (if that's the correct term) someone offstage with a meteor bomb, that would make it the closest thing in sm4sh to shine spikes in Melee. XD

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Oh god....

no


IZAC is and always has been jumping, instantly z-dropping item, instantly catching dropped item with aerial. In smash 4 this was made more difficult by the fact that we must time the z-drop perfectly to avoid the Zair; other characters don't have to worry about that.
Instant Z-drop is jumping, instantly z-dropping item (such that the Zair doesn't come out).
There currently is no name for jumping, waiting, falling, and z-dropping the bomb just before you land such that it is lagless.
It is definitely too late to change 'IZAC'. And it's too late to rename Instant Z-drop because I say it is XD.
There are multiple ways to z-drop without doing a Zair. Note the thread I keep linking. http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...esearch-lab-and-at-list.380910/#post-18102830 In it you will find the 'Z-drop' and in the note of the 'Z-drop' you will find the following sentences: 'As has been alluded to, it is possible to Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out. In order to do this, you must hit the grab button while holding a Bomb immediately after: a SH, a FH, a Ledgehop, a Footstool, an Aerial, coming out of Hitstun, or dropping through a platform.'

 

[DarkDeity15]

Oh god....

no


IZAC is and always has been jumping, instantly z-dropping item, instantly catching dropped item with aerial. In smash 4 this was made more difficult by the fact that we must time the z-drop perfectly to avoid the Zair; other characters don't have to worry about that.
Instant Z-drop is jumping, instantly z-dropping item (such that the Zair doesn't come out).
There currently is no name for jumping, waiting, falling, and z-dropping the bomb just before you land such that it is lagless.
It is definitely too late to change 'IZAC'. And it's to late to rename Instant Z-drop because I say it is XD.
There are multiple ways to z-drop without doing a Zair. Note the thread I keep linking. http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...esearch-lab-and-at-list.380910/#post-18102830 In it you will find the 'Z-drop' and in the note of the 'Z-drop' you will find the following sentence: 'As has been alluded to, it is possible to Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out. In order to do this, you must hit the grab button while holding a Bomb immediately after: a SH, a FH, a Ledgehop, a Footstool, an Aerial, coming out of Hitstun, or dropping through a platform.'

Ooooohhh ok. Thank God that's over. I finally understand now. Now I seriously need to change up shiz in the OP. Dammit. But then, would that also mean that tether canceling after hitting someone with your bomb offstage needs a new name as well? If that's the case, then bomb shine and tether canceled bomb shine (TCBS) it is for the both of them.