(LEGALITY) Custom Special Moves: Maybe. Modifiable Attributes: No.

[1MachGO]

We should ban stat modification

First off, inb4 we don't have the game yet. We basically know all we need to know about character customization when it comes to questioning the legality of it. If this game is going to be played competitively, we should go forward with little regard to this mechanic.

Reasons:

>It is blatantly counter-intuitive to vanilla character balance (probably no need to elaborate on this one, but basically it seems to exist to appeal to people who want to play their favorite nintendo character AND play their favorite style. It has a lot of potential to develop recursive strategy)

>Difficult to manage (we can't expect every console at a venue to have every item possible for customization)

>Affects set up time (Goes off point 2, if players have to customize their characters every single set or even in between matches, it is going to reduce time available to complete an event. Factor that in with a set up potentially not having the items a player needs and then we lose even more time)


Custom Special Moves

I would like to say that I am a believer in custom special moves and I think it has a lot of potential to add to the game's strategy; particularly in how players approach specific match ups. Unlike stat modification, custom special moves seem to work in tandem with character identity, and for me, seems a lot like picking your super or your assist in capcom fighting games (street fighter and MvC, respectively). With that said, we should look out for certain things

>Recursive strategy (Even though it is more complimentary than stat modding, there could be recursive strategies from non-vanilla specials and we'll have to look out for that. It probably wouldn't take more than 5 offenders to bring the whole mechanic into question)

>Should still be banned for a 3-6 month period after the game launches (it needs to be tested and there is no way everyone will have all the parts for initial tournaments. This problem will be easier to remedy if someone uploads their save file off an sd card)

>Similar managing/set up problems to stat mod (would definitely be to a lesser extent, however)

 

[thesage]

I think alt special moves are a great way to fix the imbalance in the older characters and give them potential for different strategies and playstyles. I really would like to hear more about them.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

From what I've gathered, the only ones that appear problematic are Palutena and Mii, as their customs change their moves entirely, rather than how their default moves function.

Isn't it a little... conflicting to say that custom moves should be banned for testing? I assumed that letting people use them would be the best way to test them as it gives more people a shot, in more situations and any pros and cons can be found faster in a more competitively-relevant environment. Can't advance the meta solely behind closed doors ya know.

 

[mimgrim]

>Should still be banned for a 3-6 month period after the game launches (it needs to be tested and there is no way everyone will have all the parts for initial tournaments. This problem will be easier to remedy if someone uploads their save file off an sd card)

Once something gets banned it will not be unbanned.

 

[TimeSmash]

Once something gets banned it will not be unbanned.

This is truer than true. There has to be an alternate solution than just simply banning.

Haven't done my reading on Palutena and Miis yet, but would having an alternate move be that gamebreaking? Obviously if it were something terrible like the next tornado, I see your point, but if the moves functioned differently (say, a damaging move gets switched out via customization for a reflector), how bad is that? I understand people may have to treat MUs differently based on a different special move, but the boards have shown people are very willing to do heavy research on any MU.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Thinking that Custom Movesets should be allowed, but stubbornness could refuse to let it come to fruition. We'll see.

Freedom to choose between different variants of moves is fair. It's not affected by stats, there's no way you customize how strong your B move is to the exact percent, if you catch my drift.
The moves are all defined by themselves despite being variants, separate from each other. They even have their own name as well.

I don't think balance is necessary, really. Something would have to be literally gamebreaking to ban if we allow custom movesets, which I personally doubt will happen.

I'd like to think of it as a free market. The character with the best custom moves will profit the most, the ones with the worst won't.
Either way, it allows for more options, and eventually after the dust settles and the meta evolves, the best custom movesets will be chosen for the specific characters, with perhaps some preferences for moves in between.

I agree that there should be a system implemented to show your custom moveset off. It's really only four moves, so it's nothing too tedious or complex.

So yeah I think it's a neat idea that some people might hesitate at, but it offers a lot more options than we ever had for the competitive metagame. I can't see how it's a detrimental thing unless we end up arguing about it for years, but I have good faith that people can see the potential. Perhaps I'm jumping a bit too far ahead, but hey, it's fun to have theories once in a while!

 

[New_Dumal]

In the roundtable Sakurai said EVERY character has 3 move-costumization for each special, using Mario as a example.
We already decided wich stage is legal, almost banned a character and even build P:M for competitive scenario...
It's not that hard define wich special-move is viable in competitive and wich is not.

Maybe low-tiers chars become... I don't know, Mid ? I see a lot of potential.

 

[HeroMystic]

There was a time when Items were part of Smash(Melee) tournaments until an exploding capsule appeared in a Regional finals.

The main problem isn't their potential imbalance but rather their accessibility. If we can manage all of their options in a streamlined amount of time, then I see nothing wrong with customization.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Competetive community will go with characters and moves that are most efficient for competitive play. Miis and Palutena may looked over if there's a character that's stronger than them. And even if they have these special moves, people will customize them to a point where it's best for competition. So if we find one combination is better for a character many may adopt it, or we'll have a few people who try a different approach. This is no different from a player who uses ATs and those who don't (Lucas in PM, Pink Fresh doesn't DACUS much but other plays implement it. Hell, some do B-Sticking or the like to transform how he plays as a whole), except ATs are usually hard to pick up.

And it seems these customization skew how moves work. For example - Mario's fireball. Normally, it has a set bouncing path. With the customization, it changes to a big, slow moving singular fireball (slow to get out) or one that's quick, straight and weak. It's a trade off in most cases from the usual, balanced move with both power and speed.

I think people fear this because it'll make tier lists near impossible to make. Then tiers will really *ahem* be for queers (for lack of a better word). But hell, your Mario could be having trouble getting opponents with a spaced game, so he whips out his horizontal shot fireball. Now he has something similar to Foxes laser to deal with foes, and opponents need to become smarter and play better.

So why don't people want to change? Because we fear something different - something that's out of the norm. Smash 4 is not Melee. Smash 4 is not Brawl. It's a whole new beast. And this will be a key differentiator and an awesome addition to competitive play, if we let it.

Think of it, it may take longer, but it adds more meta game to the meta game. More thinking, more thought about how to handle matches. Some will choose a move set and keep it throughout, or some will mix it up, almost like a character counter pick. I think it would be a lot of fun and a refreshing addition to the Smash Bros formula.

Again, nobody holds us back but ourselves. Melee players and Project M players may not like this because it REALLY strays from the usual. But if they thought it would be close to Melee than I'm sorry but you were at fault from the start.

To me, we should be optimistic about this addition. If it indeed proves to be unbalanced, we can scrap it. I feel as a community we'll be able to work it out.

 

[1MachGO]

Isn't it a little... conflicting to say that custom moves should be banned for testing? I assumed that letting people use them would be the best way to test them as it gives more people a shot, in more situations and any pros and cons can be found faster in a more competitively-relevant environment. Can't advance the meta solely behind closed doors ya know.

It wouldn't be banned for testing. It would be banned initially because, literally, not every set up will have all the custom moves unlocked.

 

[stan423321]

Some very random points regarding this:

• If you'll ban the custom moves at the beginning, there will be a bunch of players who will insist that they should stay banned because they're used to it. As of savefiles as a reason, maybe we should ban unlockable characters? No?
• If we're mentioning savefiles: I'm not even sure you can move one between devices anymore. In fact, Nintendo retroactively removed this feature from DSis.
• If moves are selected off the CSS, it implies problems with ditto matches.

I don't think anyone disagrees regarding stat boosters though.

 

[lordvaati]

It wouldn't be banned for testing. It would be banned initially because, literally, not every set up will have all the custom moves unlocked.

really it's no different then a setup not having every stage and character in hindset.

 

[thesage]

http://imgur.com/AEXvanJ

I think it seems like it's simple enough to allow.

 

[GamerGuy09]

Haha! I'm just happy I hit the nail right on the head when I said there would be only 2 other special move variations! Anyway I think this should be in competitive play, as it might be a good way to keep things fresh in Smash as the Meta evolves. Like let's go though all of the variances for Mario's moves here.

• Fast Fireball probably minimal knockback and damage, but is VERY fast. Could be used similarly to Fox.
• Fire Orb: A great defensive tool to keep the enemy away when they are close.
• Super Jump: It seems to be a higher jump that deals no damage. Great if Mario's recovery is a bit bad and needs a boost.
• Explosive Punch: Seems to deal higher damage with a combo, but maybe it has a worse recovery?
• Shocking Cape: Seems to deal damage, probably electrical stun damage. It may not turn the enemy around though.
• Gust Cape: Kind of like FLUDD I guess, as it does a quick non-damaging/knockbacking push. Could be useful in certain strategies.
• Scalding FLUDD: Looks like it deals minimum knockback, but deals damage.
• High PRessure FLUDD: It looks like FLUDD's cone is drastically higher, almost like a triangle. I'm thinking that this would be a lot shorter in range though.

None of these seem overpowered instantly, and if there was one, people can counter-pick them similarly to LoL bans. I think that this could be what SSB4 special in its competitive play, and unique from Melee and Brawl.

 

[lordvaati]

.....I just thought of something though: Falco might be in trouble now.
Fox's variants could very well just be like Falco's moves-Blaster could be the slow one that makes flinching, his Shine c an shoot you up or be thrown, etc.

And I know people are gonna say"well Falco is guaranteed to return!" Well, that's what they said about MegaMan in MvC3......

 

[GamerGuy09]

.....I just thought of something though: Falco might be in trouble now.
Fox's variants could very well just be like Falco's moves-Blaster could be the slow one that makes flinching, his Shine c an shoot you up or be thrown, etc.

And I know people are gonna say"well Falco is guaranteed to return!" Well, that's what they said about MegaMan in MvC3......

Question, how would you feel if Falco returned, but not as a character. But as an Alt as Fox, and all of Falco's moves came back via custom movesets?

I guess no one would be mad per say. But it would be odd.

 

[1MachGO]

really it's no different then a setup not having every stage and character in hindset.

Well there are some unavoidable problems for day 1 tournaments. However, after 2+ weeks, its unacceptable to have any set ups without every character and stage unlocked.

With custom special moves, there could potentially be a minimum of 8 collectable parts per character. If the roster is 50 characters, you would have to collect approximately 400 parts to unlock every special moves. This is a far greater figure than the total number of unlockable characters and stages combined. If this is the case, the mechanic cannot possibly be fair until considerable time has passed unless there is a way to share saved data.

• If moves are selected off the CSS, it implies problems with ditto matches..

I haven't even though of this. If the moves can't be assigned to nametags then the mechanic may be unusable. :/

 

[GamerGuy09]

Well there are some unavoidable problems for day 1 tournaments. However, after 2+ weeks, its unacceptable to have any set ups without every character and stage unlocked.

With custom special moves, there could potentially be a minimum of 8 collectable parts per character. If the roster is 50 characters, you would have to collect approximately 400 parts to unlock every special moves. This is a far greater figure than the total number of unlockable characters and stages combined. If this is the case, the mechanic cannot possibly be fair until considerable time has passed unless there is a way to share saved data.


I haven't even though of this. If the moves can't be assigned to nametags then the mechanic may be unusable. :/

I would assume that it would be assigned to nametags, or it really limits customizability even in casual play mirror matches.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Custom moves are a yes for me. Palutena needs it or she will be bad.

 

[Mithost]

Custom moves have no reason to be banned out of the gate. Treat them like assists used in Marvel vs. Capcom, Skullgirls, etc. If you can select them in a similar time frame to making a name tag, turning off rumble, and changing your controls (brawl/pm), it should be good for tournaments. The only problem would be if two players couldn't use different custom movesets for the same character (dittos). I think it's already implied that this won't be the case though due to how things like transporting characters and amiigos have been presented (bring your own Mario into the game).

 

[lordvaati]

Question, how would you feel if Falco returned, but not as a character. But as an Alt as Fox, and all of Falco's moves came back via custom movesets?

I guess no one would be mad per say. But it would be odd.

Looking at the Wii fit Trainer, Arcade Mac and the Villager, I would not be surprised actually.

Hell, if they even go insane enough it might be the whole Star Fox Crew....or at least James.

 

[kackamee]

Custom moves have no reason to be banned out of the gate. Treat them like assists used in Marvel vs. Capcom, Skullgirls, etc. If you can select them in a similar time frame to making a name tag, turning off rumble, and changing your controls (brawl/pm), it should be good for tournaments. The only problem would be if two players couldn't use different custom movesets for the same character (dittos). I think it's already implied that this won't be the case though due to how things like transporting characters and amiigos have been presented (bring your own Mario into the game).

Agreed. Ultimately, to me, it comes down to how much time it takes to equip the different moves. If it is something super fast that doesn't take a lot of time, I think they should be okay to let into competitive play.

 

[mimgrim]

Have custom moves been confirmed to actually need unlocking?

Equippable items probably will, but are you sure custom moves will?

 

[Ginger Hail]

Have custom moves been confirmed to actually need unlocking?

Equippable items probably will, but are you sure custom moves will?

In videos of the Smash Run demo, custom moves sometimes appeared as loot alongside things like trophies.

 

[Mithost]

Have custom moves been confirmed to actually need unlocking?

Equippable items probably will, but are you sure custom moves will?

Even if they do, so do the stages, characters, and certain features (random stage selection). We expect the tournament Wii U's to have complete save files already, so it shouldn't matter much if we have to unlock a bit of extra stuff.

 

[1MachGO]

There seems to be some confusion surrounding my reasoning for banning custom special moves for early tournaments, allow me to reiterate why this makes sense:

Custom special moves have to be unlocked with parts, since each character has at least 12 special moves, this means you may have to collect 8 parts per character. If the game has a roster of 50 characters, you would have to collect approximately 400 parts to unlock every special moves. This is a far greater figure than the total number of unlockable characters and stages combined. If this is the case, the mechanic cannot possibly be fair until considerable time has passed unless there is a way to share saved data.

 

[GamerGuy09]

There seems to be some confusion surrounding my reasoning for banning custom special moves for early tournaments, allow me to reiterate why this makes sense:

Custom special moves have to be unlocked with parts, since each character has at least 12 special moves, this means you may have to collect 8 parts per character. If the game has a roster of 50 characters, you would have to collect approximately 400 parts to unlock every special moves. This is a far greater figure than the total number of unlockable characters and stages combined. If this is the case, the mechanic cannot possibly be fair until considerable time has passed unless there is a way to share saved data.

Wii U can use SD cards, so I don't see how it is any different from stages or characters. Also if you get 1 or 2 for every time you play Smash Run, it should probably take as much time to get all of them until the Wii U Smash comes out.

 

[Mithost]

Wouldn't there be ways to unlock them on the Wii U version? Is any of this unlocking stuff confirmed yet?

 

[mogwaimon]

There seems to be some confusion surrounding my reasoning for banning custom special moves for early tournaments, allow me to reiterate why this makes sense:

Custom special moves have to be unlocked with parts, since each character has at least 12 special moves, this means you may have to collect 8 parts per character. If the game has a roster of 50 characters, you would have to collect approximately 400 parts to unlock every special moves. This is a far greater figure than the total number of unlockable characters and stages combined. If this is the case, the mechanic cannot possibly be fair until considerable time has passed unless there is a way to share saved data.

There's an easy solution to this: carry over the save from the 3DS to the Wii U. I assume since you can link the two games, you'll be able to bring your unlocked equipment and special moves, maybe even characters to the Wii U version when it comes out. Even Reggie has been saying that the whole draw of Smash Run is so that you can powerup a character and then take it to the Wii U version from there, so even on day 1 we could conceivably have tourney-ready saves available.

Speaking as a casual player who watches the tournaments because they're awesome, I'd like to see custom moves be legal. I think it's little different from picking your ultra in Street Fighter 4 or picking your assists. I believe the custom moveset would be tied to nametags or some other profile data rather than to the save file directly; I mean the Amiibo figures are able to retain their own custom moveset, equipment, level, etcetera, and you can set controller settings per nametag already in Brawl so why not tie moves and equipment to it as well?

Like everyone else has said, it's going to come down to the logistics of tourney setup, at least at first.

 

[1MachGO]

Wii U can use SD cards, so I don't see how it is any different from stages or characters. Also if you get 1 or 2 for every time you play Smash Run, it should probably take as much time to get all of them until the Wii U Smash comes out.

Are the parts able to be transferred between systems? If so, this is one way of reducing the time needed to collect them all.

As for using SD cards, this will probably be the optimal method. TOs will probably need to go to each set up and overwrite with a completed file if necessary.

However, I still disagree with comparing unlocking characters to the special move system. Unlocking the characters will probably utilize a specific method and will probably take 1 to 2 weeks for the average player to unlock (unless you "go ham"). The parts, on the other hand, may be random, and as I stated earlier, numerically immense.

We'll really have to see. However, I am of the belief it would be wise to ban the mechanic until TOs can assure each set ups will have a completed save.

Wouldn't there be ways to unlock them on the Wii U version? Is any of this unlocking stuff confirmed yet?

We know that you have to collect parts to use custom special moves.

 

[Mithost]

Do we know if that applies outside of smash run/3DS?

 

[GamerGuy09]

Do we know if that applies outside of smash run/3DS?

We saw the Wii U Mario use custom moves. So either there is a way to unlock moves in the Wii U version, because Smash Run isn't on Wii U. Or that you can send it to the Wii U.

 

[thesage]

When I played the demo of the 3ds version I played smash run as Shiek and had the option to unlock fox's special (I think it was an up-special variation).

 

[mimgrim]

There seems to be some confusion surrounding my reasoning for banning custom special moves for early tournaments, allow me to reiterate why this makes sense:

Custom special moves have to be unlocked with parts, since each character has at least 12 special moves, this means you may have to collect 8 parts per character. If the game has a roster of 50 characters, you would have to collect approximately 400 parts to unlock every special moves. This is a far greater figure than the total number of unlockable characters and stages combined. If this is the case, the mechanic cannot possibly be fair until considerable time has passed unless there is a way to share saved data.

Doesn't matter what your reasoning is.

When something gets banned it will not be unbanned.

So you either suck it up and allow it to be legal from the start, without having them all unlocked at the beginning, or ban them from the get go and watch them stay banned.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Haha! I'm just happy I hit the nail right on the head when I said there would be only 2 other special move variations! Anyway I think this should be in competitive play, as it might be a good way to keep things fresh in Smash as the Meta evolves. Like let's go though all of the variances for Mario's moves here.

• Fast Fireball probably minimal knockback and damage, but is VERY fast. Could be used similarly to Fox.
• Fire Orb: A great defensive tool to keep the enemy away when they are close.
• Super Jump: It seems to be a higher jump that deals no damage. Great if Mario's recovery is a bit bad and needs a boost.
• Explosive Punch: Seems to deal higher damage with a combo, but maybe it has a worse recovery?
• Shocking Cape: Seems to deal damage, probably electrical stun damage. It may not turn the enemy around though.
• Gust Cape: Kind of like FLUDD I guess, as it does a quick non-damaging/knockbacking push. Could be useful in certain strategies.
• Scalding FLUDD: Looks like it deals minimum knockback, but deals damage.
• High PRessure FLUDD: It looks like FLUDD's cone is drastically higher, almost like a triangle. I'm thinking that this would be a lot shorter in range though.

None of these seem overpowered instantly, and if there was one, people can counter-pick them similarly to LoL bans. I think that this could be what SSB4 special in its competitive play, and unique from Melee and Brawl.

Saw this coming myself. Who knows what new tech will arise from this. The only iffy area is Palutena and Miis since their moves all vary greatly. I think custom movesets are viable in a competitive setting

As for the unlocking custom movesets I'm sure there will be other ways to unlock these moves as Sakurai said it may be difficult for some to have access to purchase these things

 

[1MachGO]

When something gets banned it will not be unbanned.

>Implying people value the current meta for a 3 month old game.

 

[mimgrim]

>Implying people value the current meta for a 3 month old game.

Prove to me that something that got banned in the past got unbanned later, in Smash. Exactly. Never happened. When something is banned, even from the beginning, it will never be unbanned. Just ooking at past history of the competitive scene confirms this.

Oh and MK doesn't count since regions, like SoCal, refused to ban him.

 

[1MachGO]

Prove to me that something that got banned in the past got unbanned later, in Smash. Exactly. Never happened. When something is banned, even from the beginning, it will never be unbanned. Just ooking at past history of the competitive scene confirms this.

Oh and MK doesn't count since regions, like SoCal, refused to ban him.

Wobbling

 

[mimgrim]

Wobbling

It never got a huge banned going on. Only certain places would ban it. Most places accepted it.

Try again.

 

[1MachGO]

It never got a huge banned going on. Only certain places would ban it. Most places accepted it.

Try again.

You keep moving the goalposts and your argument is clearly a citation of the SSB wiki's generalized description of Wobbling's legality. Huge tournaments such as Apex (2009-12) and pound 4 (biggest tournament prior to Evo 2013) had banned wobbling. 2013 onward was a good year to be Ice Climbers mains.

EDIT: Also, here is some further reading. This is an old thread made by Wobbles back in 2009. The first line should give you a clear idea of how people viewed wobbling during the post brawl era http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-chain-grabbing-the-handoff-faq.216589/