KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
KirbyKaze's New Sheik MU Thread
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The old one has ugly formatting (I was in a very "pink" phase at the time) and it's outdated. I don't feel like doing a complete overhaul of it so I'm just going to make a new one.
I'm going to be compiling good, ideally-recent posts on Sheik versus the rest of the cast (focusing on the good characters, because we have the most data on them). Anything I disagree with will be noted, and I'm doing to hopefully actually stay motivated this time so I can get through the top 12 characters or so. I'll also probably do my own write-up per character, outlining the basic strategies that I feel are most effective (based on my own experiences and theories [as a side note, anything that's purely 100% theory-based will be highlighted so you know it's relatively untested; I encourage you to help me test these sorts of strategies so we know and can add them to the compendium with confidence]).
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Some General Resources:
A lot of the stuff here is going to be mine, just because I post a lot of good stuff. Unfortunately, I also get incredibly lazy and forget to finish stuff or abandon it entirely. This section is partially a reminder to me to finish some of these, or clean them up so they look nicer, more reader-friendly, etc. To remove profanity, etc. But they are still (even in their current, rough forms) good resources and you should know the content of it because most of the following will address mechanical information that answers basic questions. Questions such as: "How do I escape up throw > up air by Fox?" and "How do I combo Marth from throw?"
I will have some things from the other characters in here, because some of it is relevant to Sheik. Fox's shield pressure data will be here, same with Falco's. Why? Because you are going to have to fight them, and it's preferable to know how good their pressure is when properly executed and some of the various speeds of their things, rather than do it entirely on the fly (in my experience).
* Sheik's throw on Marth - A quick, simple examination of Sheik's most effective options after d-throwing Marth. Improve you combos on Marth, and characters you can treat like Marth, with this guide!
* Sheik hitboxes and frame data - It's missing some things, but this is a great thread. See just how ridiculous forward air actually is! Gives good idea of how you should be aiming your moves to beat specific approaches.
* Frame advantage on block - See how much shield advantage or disadvantage (the latter is generally more common in this game) your move is meant to incur! I will be updating this with how to use it against aerials.
* How to SDI Fox's up throw > up air to survive! - A cute little guide I posted in the Fox forum explaining how to prevent this simple two-step from comboing you to ludicrous percents, and how to keep yourself alive when he tries to kill you with it. Features memorable characters such as Evil Gay Fox and Demo Kirby.
* The OP for the Sheik QnA thread - It has a lot of frame data on Fox and Falco's shield pressure, and various other goodies. Some old, yet relevant MU posts are also gathered there. It's a good resource in its own right, and the thread itself is still fairly active and good about answering questions so check it out! Many things there are also listed in here.
* Jab reset information by Magus420 - A successful jab reset is probably the most devastating thing you can hit against a non-teched opponent. Unfortunately, attempting one inappropriately or predictably can have the disastrous effect of letting your opponent out of your punish. Here's the percentages you need to know!
* Frame data for all things knockdown-related by Magus420 - Frame data about non-tech and all its various options that come with non-tech (roll left, right, stand, attack), and the techs (roll left, right, and stand). Also has information regarding distances, invulnerability, and more!
* Fox's Shine Grab Information - Also contains enough information for one to be able to figure out the data and relevant information for Falco's Shine Grab. Stale moves matters in tight pressure strings!
* Fox vs Jigglypuff MU guide - A lot of you might decide that Sheik Puff just isn't for you for one reason or another. This is fine. Here's how Fox does the MU.
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Character Matchups!
This is the section for character vs. character shenanigans. I might move this to the second post of the thread. I'm not quite sure yet.
How detailed this section will be largely depends on you guys and how much you want me to write, and how many useful things you guys can contribute. Good discussion makes for a better guide because then I know what to add, take out, elaborate upon, etc. So, yeah. Discussion is obviously encouraged.
I'm going to be doing these in no particular order. I'm starting with Sheik dittos and we can move in any direction from there.
Character Index
0.01 Sheik
0.02 Fox
0.03 Falco
0.04 Jigglypuff
0.05 Marth
0.06 Peach
0.07 Captain Falcon
0.08 Ice Climbers
0.09 Ganondorf
0.10 Doctor Mario
0.11 Samus
0.12 Mario
0.13 Pikachu
0.14 Young Link
I'm gonna stop there for characters just because I want those ones dealt with before we move any lower into the tier list. I generally feel the characters below those ones can be dealt with by generic grab nonsense, a good shield game, a good crouch game, needles, and SH fair (obviously don't limit yourself to just those, but simple turtling will beat the remainder of the cast pretty soundly and those are the most important aspects of her turtling).
All of the character-specific MU sections are split into a few sections. The three that will be present in every section, for each character, are:
1. Background Information
2. Mechanical Information
3. Combat Stuff
The first is just a brief history of the MU, any trends I see regarding the MU, and is generally just kind of cute trivia. I like trivia, so I'm including it. The second is anything that's pretty much absolute at this point, and not subject to change. Things like: basic edgeguarding strategies, percentages for combos, important basic two-steps that you should know, any important DIs, etc. The third is the longest because it's a compilation of some of the more effective strategies (generally basic ones; despite the detail, it's still being dumbed down for most of you) that I've seen, used, heard mentioned, or even concocted myself.
Some characters will have specific sections if there's something that doesn't fall into the above three categories that deserves its own section, or if I feel it would dominate one of the above three sections to such a degree that I'd rather just separate it to keep the guide tidy. This is somewhat subjective on my part, but I don't think any of you will mind.
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0.01 Sheik Ditto
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Background information:
Sheik vs. Sheik is becoming increasingly common in tournament setting and it's not too difficult to see why-- with such strong representation from players like M2K and Amsah, Sheik has, in recent years, developed a bit more of a following. Aside from more people being open to playing her, others are also once again recognizing her value as a secondary character.
If you are new to maining Sheik and want to play her in every MU, currently main Sheik and want to improve your Sheik ditto game because you feel you lack direction, or are in the process of picking up a Sheik secondary to use for the Sheik ditto and need some help to get you started then the following section of this guide is for you!
Mechanical Information:
Sheik can chain grab herself to 80% or so (barring platform interference) and finish herself off in a variety of ways. Tipped up smash works on anything but horizontal DI away and KOs starting around 75% (percentage is prior to the hit; hitting the tipped up smash at its minimum KO percentage can be very tricky and I generally don't recommend it). Beyond tricky things like that, you can simply kill by setting up an edgeguard at the end of the CG and following it appropriately (usually by fair, or tilt > fair).
If you are playing without chain grabs, you treat the combo tree pretty much the same as you would against Marth (only you don't regrab the DI away at low percents). D-throw > dash attack begins to be effective around 30% on DI away. If they DI elsewhere, generally up tilt is the best move (f-tilt is also acceptable at times, though).
Regardless of whether you're playing with or without CG, it is strongly recommended that you learn how to d-throw > dash SH rising fair at 50% or so. This allows you to finish CGs at the edge and transition into edgeguards effectively, rather than relying on them having bad DI on an f-tilt or whatever. It's very good (it is also very good against Ganon, Link, Pikachu, and several other characters).
To edgeguard, you generally want to force her to recover onstage and then punish her. Wavelanding from the edge onto the stage (henceforth to be referred to as "ledgedashing" for the remainder of the guide) into grab is one of the best things you can do because you can turn around and face off the stage, which traps them (run by nair if they DI behind, fair the DI away, either way they go offstage). You can also stand > grab, stand > d-smash, ledgehop dair, and a variety of other things.
If possible, needle to stop Sheik's momentum when she's offstage. Her air mobility is poor, and this will improve your chance of forcing her to Up+B, or prevent her from being able to reach the stage with Up+B, etc.
If she's close to the edge, remember that she doesn't get invincibility on her Up+B until frame 18. This gives you a good window to hit her out of its startup. Covering options with offstage nairs, bairs, fairs, etc. are a good way to rob her of her jump and sometimes even get gimps on her. It's very good.
Combat Stuff:
Combat in a Sheik ditto boils down into a pretty simple spacing game. One of the major players in this system is SH fair, simply because her SH fair is absolutely beastly. The other major tools are her grab, crouch cancel, shield, and tilts (in no particular order).
In general, Sheik's fair will beat most of her options if spaced properly under general conditions and is a fairly generic means of attacking (or defending, even). SH FF AC fair is therefore one of the widely popular and prolific techniques used in this MU.
Countering SH fairs is trickier than it looks. F-tilt works, but it's prone to trades (or even straight losing) because of how ridiculous SH fair actually is (consult the hitbox thread in the resources section for more detail!). Generally, for your f-tilt to beat her fair, you need to tilt proactively rather than reactively. Nair and bair can also be used to beat fair, but they generally have to be used proactively rather than reactively; given how long these moves hang out, this can be dangerous (although they make a great mixup!).
To reactively beat SH fairs, your options are generally going to revolve around getting under her hitbox and sneaking your hits in (rather than directly challenging it). For this reason, d-tilt, d-smash, and even dash attack are common answers to it. The first two are easily set up by simple crouch-WD movements, and even dash cancels if you're ballsy. The last can be implemented by a combination of trots, dash dancing, and using WD > dash variations to get momentum.
Countering opposing low hitboxes from the air is doable in a variety ways. One technique that Unknown showed me a while ago that I initially discredited was simply dairing over their move. However, further exploration of it (and playing with M2K) has lead to some revision and it's not that bad of an idea. Although dair can be true-CCed for a while, it begins to knock over fake-CCers at fairly reasonable percents (40%?). Jumping over dash attacks, d-tilts, and similar with dair can lead to some very silly punishment opportunities. Similarly, air needles can often be a pretty good answer and link to grab for heavy punishment. Doing an aerial like bair, nair, or fair later to compensate for the crouch is also a good option, although it can be countered by the opponent doing an attack that hits higher, earlier (this RPS system shift is largely unavoidable, though, and one of the reasons why crouching is powerful in this game; this also obviously counters the dair strategy as dair hits late naturally, because of its delay).
Ground vs. ground in a Sheik ditto generally boils down to whoever is more proficient at punishing lag and whoever's better at being evasive. If the opponent is playing mostly grounded but you have better movement and defensive habits, playing ground is probably a reasonable idea. In this case, you want to be aware that the ground game will be very crouch-heavy, in addition to being very movement-heavy. F-tilt will often miss if you do it close to a crouching Sheik, and her tilts in general are CCable for a while. Grab, down smash, dash attack (space it so you finish far behind them), etc. become very good tools in ground vs. ground Sheik dittos. Hurling a boost grab into their crouch, dash dance, etc. space can be a pretty good way to get a KO (but I'd generally be cautious about using it because if it gets predicted you can be grabbed back; it's not a bad idea if you can tell how they like to move, though).
[COLLAPSE="As a side note:"]M2K claims that down smash is very strong in non-CG Sheik dittos. Drephen likely agrees with this, if his style is any indication. I personally find the move hit or miss and somewhat situational, but it does have some great moments and it's one of the few moves that can straight beat her aerials reactively because of the invincibility. It's also a fairly good edgeguard, combo finisher, etc.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Another little tidbit:"] You don't want to be on platforms for very long in this MU. Although the prospect of optimal needle angles seems good, in practice you give the opposing Sheik too much time to get a good position. Either by getting under, or by getting a good angle to attack you from. Using platforms to reposition is great, and they do offer a good angle to attack from at times, but don't get comfortable on them. Staying on platforms is a good way to get wrecked by bairs, up airs, and various other shenanigans. It's a hard position to hold effectively.[/COLLAPSE]
The Anti-Shield Game
Sheik's shield is massive and her oos game is great so she gets her own section on how to engage a blocking doppelganger. If the opponent shields in a Sheik ditto, you have a variety of ways to attack it, but they all have counters, with varying degrees of severity. This does not mean that you shouldn't attack shields period, but be careful. Look for habits and condition (if possible and/or necessary).
The most common way to engage a shielding Sheik is to space your fair outside their shield grab range. You can do mixups with jabs and whatever but be careful because CC shield grab and CC grab mashing will **** that pretty hard and you'll get hurt. I think you can space the jab far enough for it to be immune to that garbage, but I'm not 100% on it so don't quote me on it. Fair > dash away is pretty good for this reason, because it allows you to punish counterattacks out of shield pretty easily but the drawback is that if the opponent retreats (with WD oos, etc.) it's very difficult to capitalize.
The reason for jabbing, tilting, or even down smashing after you hit a shield is to catch jumps, shield-grabs, and other shenanigans. Doing so, however, will encourage them to hold block and wait for the follow (whether they'll learn or not is another matter, though). If you can condition them to hold shield, fair > grab becomes pretty good.
Empty jump > grab is also a fairly reasonable technique because most Sheik shield pressure revolves around hitting an aerial and then following with an action (or waiting). This preys on the complacency many have, and the belief that "Sheik will hit my shield with an aerial."
Low nairs are also good because, after doing it, neither character is at frame advantage (assuming full power nair) which allows you to do a variety of things afterwards, including: dash behind the opponent (requires you nair sort of deep into their shield), dash away (requires you not nair deep into their shield), attack (grab becomes a reasonable option because, assuming they shield grab, whichever grab is timed better will win if you break even in terms of frame advantage and it's easier to learn offensive timings), and waiting.
Generally, you can counter most delayed aerials as Sheik with simple things like nair oos but you have to be careful against fairs because nairs have less priority. You can also generally look for spots to WD back, which is also an effective way out of shield pressure. In general, your goal should be to avoid doing something that will get you grabbed or hit into a massive combo when you're shielding. Counterattacking is a secondary concern.
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0.004 Jigglypuff
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A word from the author: I skimmed the Sheik board today and noticed people answering questions about this MU and several others. Since discussion seems to be shifting back into something I somewhat enjoy, I decided to craft the second MU for my guide. Falco is put on hold because I just learned a lot about fighting spacies that I wish to incorporate into his section and Fox’s section. Fox is on hold for a similar reason.
On that note, since Tope is leaving us to become an American pirate (and he’s perhaps the one of the only other Sheiks in the universe who I think is actually good at this one) I figured I’d give you guys something to chew on while I’m banned. This should cover most questions of the MU.
This part of the guide is strictly for NTSC.
All numbers are ‘before the hit’.
1. Background Information
This MU has a lot of history to it. In earlier times, this MU was considered easy for everyone’s favourite ninja. But the past few years (2009 onwards) have been a very interesting time for SSBM. M2K unveiled his super tournament-threat Sheik. Armada showed prowess on the national scale by taking second at Genesis with the Peach that changed how over two-thirds the Melee population looked at Peach. And we discovered a second heavy tournament-threat Sheik in Europe, something that we haven’t had in ages.
All of these were then stopped by the most hardcore pudding-pop diva-bunny ever. The aftermath was staggering. Numbers were tossed around haphazardly. Some claimed the Sheik Puff MU was horrific whereas others made excuses for inexperience. Whole regions began learning secondary characters in an effort to counter the jiggling menace. It was a very strange time. Nowadays, it is generally agreed upon that this one isn’t so grim. There is not yet a solid consensus on who has the advantage, but the strategy is at least beginning to be settled.
This is perhaps one of the most irritating characters Sheik faces for a variety of reasons. The constant proximity of death makes this a challenge that punishes you very heavily for slip ups – whether they are errors in tech or poor decisions. Many of Sheik’s time-honored advantages evaporate in the face of a character who resists combos, edgeguards, gimps, and whose range compares to yours. But Sheik is still a threat in this one if you understand Puff’s limitations, and she comes with needles. Even in our crazy Melee universe, sharp objects are still good against balloons.
2. Mechanical Information
There’s a lot of mechanical and technical information vs. Puff because her character design is weird and has all sorts of little gimmicks and nonsense.
Shield Counterattacks:
Are almost totally worthless vs Puff's aerials. It's stupidly easy for her to avoid it because of crouch, aerial mobility, range, etc. So unless they give you a cue that nair OOS or whatever will work (crossing up, being in the air forever, etc), then don't bother. Puff can decide for Sheik's nair OOS and shield grab to suck pretty much at will. So yeah, usually they're gonna suck.
Rest and Death:
DI Rest to kill yourself if you’re over about 10-15% (depending on stage and positioning) so you can punish her for hitting with it. This is important so Puff does not use Rest to cover too much ground either getting ahead or coming back when she’s at KO percent.
To get a feel for survivability, at the edge of Pokemon Stadium, up tilt Rest kills Sheik at 0 (according to M2K, who I trust). Use that as a general base as to whether or not it’s worth attempting to DI to survive or not. Generally it won’t be, but surviving rests when it’s appropriate to do so will prevent you from losing games.
Teching vs Puff:
Sheik has wonderfully huge tech rolls so tech rolling is actually really good against Puff. This forces Puff to take preemptive actions to cover multiple options or far techs, so if you can spot her cues (as to which she’s covering) you can often get out for free, which is great.
With non-tech options, rolling into her is absolutely horrible because it’s the easiest thing for her to react to and rest. It can be tempting to go for getup attacks to try and shake her, but be wary of rest OOS and her ability to fish for it with her DJs. Standing and moving away from her are probably going to be your best bet (usually).
On platforms it’s a bit different. Something you’ll notice is that in certain positions, Puffs like to down throw Sheik because if Sheik DIs anywhere but away, she can be directly comboed or rested. So it’s often used in certain positions where DIing away will put Sheik on a platform. In these cases, Puffs are usually looking for tech stands for the rest because they’re the fastest option. Try to observe which way the Puff is committing with her jump and trick her with a tech roll. You’ll sometimes get caught anyway and die, but the biggest mistake players make in this situation is limiting their tech selection to the stand; make Puff work to kill you.
Puff Crouch Mechanics:
Puff’s crouch mechanic vs. grab – Puff’s crouch will dodge Sheik’s dash grab and standing grab. For the first 10+ frames (not sure the exact amount) of her crouching animation, Jigglypuff sits still and you cannot grab this. However, after that period, she begins to fidget about at set intervals. While she is fidgeting about, you can dash grab to overlap her head and nick her.
Ground needles work similarly. You can shoot her with sets of ground needles when she fidgets, but not when she’s simply crouching. You need a bunch (3+) because the needles shoot low every third or second needle (forget which). Single needles will still miss.
In order to connect aerial needles > grab on her crouch, you require to connect minimum two needles during descent. The timing is fairly tight. You can practice this by setting a CPU Puff to crouch in training mode (calibrate the stick ‘up’) to get a feel for it. It is a reasonable trick. I do not recommend using this as a rest punishment (as many have suggested in the past) because of the versatility of the full needle set as an edgeguard, zoning tool, and combo finisher (which is worth more than the 6-9% extra from a needle grab setup).
Puff’s crouch vs. dash attack – Surprisingly, dash attack is one of the moves I like most against Puff’s crouch. Though risky, it’s a reasonably good trick if used correctly (and sparingly) for racking damage and even scoring kills vs. her duck.
At 50% (or so) your dash attack begins to knock her over. Knocking her down and down smashing isn’t a bad play by any means for racking damage.
At 80% (or so) your dash attack begins to launch her, in spite of her crouch. The reduced KB (because she was crouching) keeps her from drifting away too far. Tight timing is required for you to follow up on it (the stun is also reduced) but you can combo to fair and uair off this. At 90%+, it’s feasible to kill her with this (so I don’t really recommend you do it below that percent if you can help it, except perhaps on Yoshi’s Story).
At about 120% (or so) your dash attack begins to kill her on most stages (not Dreamland) if she’s not crouching (dash attacking beneath her bairs and such for a KO is not a terrible idea).
Rest Punishes:
These are fairly optimized AFAIK. There’s probably room for improvement but this is what I got so far. I do other stuff sometimes but these are tried, true, and work.
At roughly 75% on standard ceiling heights (BF, FD, FoD, PS) it is optimal to simply fully charge an up smash and KO her off the roof (from the floor). You will have to fiddle for more exact percents.
If she misses a Rest on the platforms of neutral Pokemon Stadium, you can tipper up smash her feet (her feet stick through the level and extend her hurtbox going down). On Yoshi’s Story’s side platforms, you can tipper up smash beneath her if she’s on the half of the platform closest to the center. It kills on Yoshi’s Story (fully charged) at something ridiculous (maybe like 23?).
If those options aren’t available you’re probably going to fully charge needles and then either SH an aerial (dair or uair) on top of her or do a down throw combo.
At 18% your strong up air (assuming full power uair) will knock over Jigglypuff if she attempts to hold down on it. This allows you to follow up with a down smash (even if she techs; if she tech rolls then you can dash attack or unload the set of needles and take the damage). If you’re ballsy, you can attempt a jab reset (which works if she continues to hold down on it, but if she doesn’t then you lose the combo). If she does not hold down on the up air and gets popped up in stun, you simply follow with more aerials. If you’re lucky, you might get a second up air into another aerial. You’re more likely to simply get a nair or fair, however. Do the up air as low to the ground as possible for this to be effective.
Dair functions similarly except it knocks over closer to 40%. Do the dair as low to the ground as possible to maximize your ability to dash after her DI (if she DIs away) so you can follow. This punish is effective up to about 60% or so.
If you are worried about platform interference with your jumps or whatever (relevant on YS and FoD) or simply want to do something easier, a simple d-throw combo (any fast aerial, probably fair or uair) will also suffice and do comparable damage. The main benefit to hitting her high as possible is positional, however, since Sheik likes to threaten with bair and needles as Puff is coming down. This is why the low uair and dair combos are good.
Throw Combos:
You can always link uair after you d-throw Jigglypuff. Below about 20% it's better to fair if she DIs away from your d-throw. However, around 20% the uair opens up a few options you don’t have otherwise (namely a second aerial, and the option to protect her landing area with needles or zone with bairs). Fair is still really good, though and easier to hit (if you mistime the uair you can be rested and it’s a fairly tight timing if they DIed the d-throw away). For non-lethal percents, pick your poison.
D-throw > up air kills her on away DI (on both the throw and on the up air) around 85-90% on most standard levels (not Dreamland, which is about 100%). You can sometimes play little DI games with fair (expecting her to DI to the side to survive the up air) if you’re near the edge at slightly lower percents.
The Importance of Storing Needles:
Puff is going to be luring you a lot in this MU so charge your needles whenever nothing is going on (if you’re in a safe position to do so). They are amazing. This is why:
Offstage: having the full set of needles gives your edgeguarding a buff because it allows for better and further distance needle cancels into fairs (or more needles) because of the longer stun time. It covers a larger area for longer too, which makes clipping jumps easier (her later jumps are smaller than her early ones, so following up on the edgeguard sometimes becomes possible). Even if you just rack damage on her offstage that’s completely fine.
Onstage: they’re just nice to have because comboing into the full set of needles off your stray fairs and such adds a lot of damage. Using the needles to keep her from attempting to land on the ground (and thus forcing her onto platforms) makes it easier to hit follows and rack damage. If nothing else, it exerts a weird form of pressure on her that she either has to respect and work around or she eats a good chunk of damage. Needles are incredible. Charge them. Love them.
3. Combat Stuff
Well, that was a lot of nonsense. Let’s move onto the fun stuff. The MU actually breaks down easily enough. There are just a lot of little rules that you are expected to know, and teensy nuances that you need to be aware of in order to avoid dying an untimely death to her godlike down+B.
Puff’s Air Game:
The most important move in Sheik’s entire moveset against Jigglypuff is bair. If you learn nothing else from this guide, learn bair. The Puff match comes down to a lot of aerial spacing and movement because of how volatile Jiggs can be against everything else. Bair has a lot of important traits for interacting with Puff aerials. Its range is huge and it has enormous priority. Just about anything in Sheik’s bair space will likely be trumped by it. Since Jigglypuff likes to jump to initiate, this is invaluable. The angle that Sheik aims her leg at is important because it makes it good for moving underneath and around the moves that Jigglypuff will be protecting herself with (which will often be her own bair). By moving away from Puff, it’s very reasonable to beat non-bair aerials aimed to go under Sheik’s bair, provided you can put enough distance between the two of you.
As a bonus, Sheik's bair often combos into itself. So it's even good for racking damage.
Sheik’s bair can be used to counter a lot of Jigglypuff’s generic bair spacing. The positioning is a bit over a bair’s length away (yours, not Puff's). Crouching under Puff's rising bair (both FJ and SH rising back air misses against your crouch) and then jumping up with your own bair is a good way to counter standard FJ double bairs by Puff. Falling aerials can be reacted to (jump and bair first; you have a big speed advantage) or punished with evasion (mostly jumping over them, maybe dash dance punish if you’re really quick [don’t try to dash dance grab]). Losing the rising bair hurts Puff. Similarly, if you notice she turns around to attack with a sex kick or dair (which can hit your crouch while rising) you can simply jump away and outprioritize it with bair.
As a quick side note, the crouch's effectiveness against her primary spacing tool enables a bunch of options for sneaking around. Crouch > WD movements are a pretty good way to fish for d-tilts, which can be a reasonable way to kill her at high percents (75%+). Escapable, but not a terrible plan. Anyway, back to bair...
The amount of aerial approach space that Sheik’s bair covers necessitates that an approaching Puff attempts to play around it or get under it. She can attempt typical lag punishes (usually with evasion > dash attack or f-smash, bairing further away, and grab stuff [run under bair, block, shield grab]) but these are handled mostly by not swinging blindly when she tries to bait the bair with farther-spaced jumps, or by simply keeping proper bair distance.
If you notice Puff is retreating a lot to try and lure you into attacking her, you can just shoot needles at her. Fullscreen bair camps by Puff give you ample opportunity to charge full sets and unload them as she attempts to land; pay attention to how she spends her jumps and when she’s bairing. Challenging her airspace aggressively when she is in full retreat is very difficult. It is very easy for her to move back further, double jump out of reach, or change her position in some similar way (which leads to you possibly getting hit). Hitbox drag works very favourably for her here. Half-retreats, stationary aerials, and weaves (when she jumps forward and pulls back) can sometimes be aerialed aggressively (or even naired around). This style of play is not bad when used sparingly, but do not underestimate her ability to drift further from you. Sheik’s low aerial mobility works against her here.
Up tilt does a good job covering approaches directly on top of Sheik. Puffs often attempt to nair coming down off of platforms or after they’ve been comboed (or similarly been forced above you). It covers an area that bair doesn't.
Puff comes with a reasonable pair of sex kicks so I’ll cover them briefly. They’re not really hard to deal with relative to her other stuff but you should know the basics. You can counter most of her SH sex kicks with SH back fairs, bairs, and even f-tilts. It’s also reasonable to sneak down tilts underneath them as she’s falling with them, provided you can move back enough. It is viable to CC down smash on them, but be careful because she can poke with nair and then drift back outside of your range (although if she commits and goes into you then it’s pretty good).
Against higher sex kicks (DJ and FJ versions), just treat them like you would any other high approach. Up tilts and bairs. Not much else to say. You can fair, if you want, and it can work, but her weaving is reasonably good against this whereas it’s much poorer against your bair.
Sheik on Platforms:
I wasn’t really sure where to put this so I put it here. Platforms are kind of a weird hybrid of air game and ground game.
Platform camping used to be the best general strategy to do the MU and it’s a useful skill to have. The platform camping principle is simple: Puff is slow going up and down whereas Sheik is not. Sheik moves fast across platforms whereas Puff does not. This allows you to get a speed advantage and zone certain areas very effectively; mostly through the needle triangle.
The needle triangle is very good against aerial Puff. If Puff approaches into the needle triangle of the platform then you can actually get some very good combos from it at low percents. Aerial needle (cancel on platform somehow) > run off fair > follow (f-tilt, fair, etc) is pretty easy to land if they jump into the needle. At higher percents you can exchange the run off fair with a weak aerial (bair) and link from there. This sort of thing relies a bit on Puff moving into the triangle zone, but it’s not a bad position for Sheik defensively if you can get up there safely.
One of her main counters is to get under you and shark with uairs through the platform. She will likely do this by shielding needles and WDing OOS deep enough into the triangle so the needles miss. You can do pretty typical shield stuff (lightshield to slide off the platform facing forwards; often get a free bair this way), run off the platform, or reposition with the top platform in response but there is a danger in being above Jigglypuff for so long. Those up airs can very easily kill you. I’m not sure how the shield drop interacts with her stuff.
Another thing she might try is to aim for Sheik’s face, outside the needle triangle. This requires her to have some height, however, because Sheik is atop a platform. This can be annoying, but isn’t unbearable because you can take the ground floor in response to this, and play Sheik’s typical game with bair when she’s below Puff. You can also simply bair or fair on the platform itself, or maneuver with the top platform.
Life on the Edge:
Puff is going to want to corner you at the edge. Your shield is very important in this position. Puff generally looks for people to swing at her, so she can punish the lag and score a gimp or bair chain (which converts into a gimp). It’s not unreasonable to return to the edge and replenish your shield in the event this happens. Having proficiency with ledgedashes can give you invaluable options in this situation. Small ledgedashes are an effective way to possibly catch Puff aiming her bair further away from the edge, in the expectation that you will ledgedash deep (or roll, get up attack, deep ledgehop fairs, etc). Once onstage, you can begin a less optimal version of the crouch strategy (you don’t have as ideal spacing) or attempt to dash through her. Going on the platform is similarly reasonable, but be wary of wavelanding forward when you do so (she will try to protect that space). Paying attention to her positioning and whether she can cover that option is very important. Once you’re on the platform, if you didn’t waveland forward, you can decide to go around her or return to land (if she’s going high in preparation of you going forward on the platform) and see if you can make back ground through the middle.
It will be tempting to go for the middle with quicker, more dynamic actions (roll, waveland, etc). Wavelanding across the side platform and rolling to the middle are not terrible options when used sparingly but try to do them when Puff is committed to something else so you don’t get punished for them (particularly the roll; you can be rested for it).
Another important thing to note about being by the edge is that you will probably tempt Puff into going for grabs on you by shielding so much. If possible, try to WD back on these efforts (other actions can be stuffed by her changing her mind and going for an aerial, WD back, etc). If WD is not available because of space constraints, you may require alternative options (SH, FJ > platform, FJ > waveland, etc). Jumping OOS on attempted empty jump > grabs is also fairly good (this is also a point in the MU where sidestep has a lot of potential, though it’s admittedly risky).
Sheik’s low dash is conducive to running under aerials. For this reason, running through Puff’s aerials to reach the middle (or even just to get under her) is not unheard of. Dashing under her bairs is not a bad way of positioning yourself to attack her (dash attack, rising aerials, etc) or push her away from the middle of the stage.
When Sheik has Puff pushed to the edge, your game does not really change too much. Positioning should be roughly a third of the stage’s length from the edge (can vary, depending on how competent you are with platforms, etc). If Puff is holding the ledge, shooting ground needles as she comes up with whatever is a fairly simple, effective way to put pressure on her without risking anything. Unload, charge, repeat if necessary. However, be careful – being near the edge often makes Puffs go for riskier plays (gimmicky throw setups, Pounds, cross up aerials, etc) so be wary of these and punish them accordingly. Be patient; make her do all the work. Bairs are your friend. Pounds and b-throws are probably the most dangerous thing here, so watch for them the most. If she pounds your shield, remember that you can do more than simply nair OOS (up smash, grab, and up air OOS can all be good).
In general, if you have Puff with her back to the edge, you’re probably doing well so long as you’re not getting gimped. Puff is less troublesome when she’s pressured.
Handling Grounded Puff:
A lot of the above has mostly related to Puff when she’s in the air. Grounded Puff is a little different.
On grounded Puff you mostly want to be facing forward (if you’re intending to challenge her). There’s not really much you need to do about her ground game when she’s not crouching or shielding. If she’s not crouching then standard SHFFAC fairs are pretty effective (they need to be a bit lower because she’s short). If you’re on defense and she’s grounded, be wary of her efforts to WD into you and pierce your shield with up tilt. You can shield grab her up tilt, on that note. Her dash attack goes quite a distance too so be aware of that as an option but it can similarly be shield grabbed. You can hang outside her f-smash range pretty easily and just wait pretty effectively versus most of her ground stuff.
Her crouch is annoying, but not really that different.
On her crouch, you really only have a few options to engage it directly. Low fairs are okay; so are aerial needles. You don’t necessarily need the needles to combo into anything, but linking them into down tilt or down smash is a pretty good way to rack damage. Going for the needle grab is okay but requires you essentially be in her face for it to work and that can be dangerous (her spontaneously doing up tilt out of crouch, or moving under you with WD is a real threat). Beware of typical stuff against low aerials (her jumping with an attack, WD back > attack, etc).
Riskier options include down smash and dash attack. Puff can shield punish both of these with aerial OOS fairly easily. But they aren’t horrendous against her crouch (they have percentage restrictions so you don’t get crouch-rested; down smash is weird against shields and near the edge).
Finally, you have the option to simply not engage it all that much. This is not a bad option at all. Invoke the platform needle position. Her crouch doesn’t actually do much if you’re not close enough for it to be relevant and it doesn’t do anything against platform play. So if you decide you do not feel comfortable challenging the ducking Puff, there’s nothing that says you really have to. Charge your needles across the stage and wait, prepare to down smash her if necessary as she WDs into you, go under a platform in preparation of FJ needles > needle cancel if you want, and so forth. Make her come to you and reposition. It’s really not that bad.
All this stuff with needles, down smash, dash attack, and low aerials will likely encourage blocking by Puff. Believe it or not, you want her to block. This is the one time in the MU where it’s actually okay to go for grabs on Puff without it being some kind of lag punish or gimmicky needle setup. However, it is strongly advised you max-range your standing grab. The standing grab and range requirements are precautions so she does not get a rest for sidestepping something; if you do the dash grab, the lag makes it possible to be rested from sidestep and other OOS options. Puff crouches when she jumps OOS so max ranging is similarly important to reduce risk of rest KO and force her to punish with aerials and such, which are manageable. It is not guaranteed by any means but this system allows you to fight with a favourable risk-reward for Sheik on the table, which is rare in this MU.
Empty jump to grab is your friend. Walk forward grab is your friend. Dash to crouch or WD down (to break the momentum so you can space) grab is your friend. Give her the impression that you are going to do something she can shield-punish, or that she wants to shield, and then grab.
Edgeguarding Puff:
Shoot her with needles whenever you can. Stealing jumps and stuffing pounds are very, very important!
On high recoveries you sort of have to accept that there’s nothing you can do for sure so you just want to stay below her and threaten with whatever you can. Bair, up tilt, f-tilt, jab, even CC d-smash. Be wary of pounds. There’s not much to say about this. Sheik is one of the characters that actually can jump offstage and swing a bair at a high Puff, but it’s very risky and if Puff spots you doing it then she can usually pull back enough to avoid the bair (and possibly pound at you and kill you). That said, it’s not a bad idea to threaten with it (remember to avoid the pound!) and abort mission, grab edge, etc. If you see her attack offstage for whatever reason in your range (whiffed pound, fair, etc) then feel free to swing.
On low recoveries, whenever you can ledgehop nair a Jigglypuff into the edge and stage-spike her, do it. None of them have ever really learned how to ledge tech, so if you catch them hugging the wall (which will happen sometimes, because they’ll try to do it to make your bair soft hit) then just nair them. Beyond that, shoot them with as many needles as you can and make them drop as many jumps as possible. Needle > fair if you can. Hitting strong bair gives them height (assuming they survive it), but if they’ve lost a bunch of jumps then it’s not bad to do it just to push them away and force them to Pound a bunch to recover. Otherwise, you generally want to minimize how much height she can gain and try to choke her jumps as much as possible. Again, I stress don’t get pounded (or baired or whatever attack she swings with). It is likely that she will try and trick you by hovering just outside your ledgehop bair range; just shoot her with needles for this.
I want to stress that you be very careful with your invincibility because trades can very easily kill you in this position. Edgeguarding a low Puff recovery is hard to make lethal even if you rack a lot of damage (barring a stage-spike). If you drop an edgeguard because you hit with a poof or naired her across the stage when she air-dodged up, that’s not as bad as risking your stock because a pound traded with something. Racking damage is perfectly fine.
General trick: if Puff goes over the lip of the stage after 100% or so on most stages then it’s reasonable to just ledgehop uair and attempt to kill them. Nair is also good because of its size, duration, and how easy it is to strong hit.
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0.007 Captain Falcon
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KirbyKaze has not completed Falcon yet. So in the meantime enjoy this wonderful guide written by the lovely and talented Armada!
Armada's vs Falcon guide with Sheik
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The old one has ugly formatting (I was in a very "pink" phase at the time) and it's outdated. I don't feel like doing a complete overhaul of it so I'm just going to make a new one.
I'm going to be compiling good, ideally-recent posts on Sheik versus the rest of the cast (focusing on the good characters, because we have the most data on them). Anything I disagree with will be noted, and I'm doing to hopefully actually stay motivated this time so I can get through the top 12 characters or so. I'll also probably do my own write-up per character, outlining the basic strategies that I feel are most effective (based on my own experiences and theories [as a side note, anything that's purely 100% theory-based will be highlighted so you know it's relatively untested; I encourage you to help me test these sorts of strategies so we know and can add them to the compendium with confidence]).
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Some General Resources:
A lot of the stuff here is going to be mine, just because I post a lot of good stuff. Unfortunately, I also get incredibly lazy and forget to finish stuff or abandon it entirely. This section is partially a reminder to me to finish some of these, or clean them up so they look nicer, more reader-friendly, etc. To remove profanity, etc. But they are still (even in their current, rough forms) good resources and you should know the content of it because most of the following will address mechanical information that answers basic questions. Questions such as: "How do I escape up throw > up air by Fox?" and "How do I combo Marth from throw?"
I will have some things from the other characters in here, because some of it is relevant to Sheik. Fox's shield pressure data will be here, same with Falco's. Why? Because you are going to have to fight them, and it's preferable to know how good their pressure is when properly executed and some of the various speeds of their things, rather than do it entirely on the fly (in my experience).
* Sheik's throw on Marth - A quick, simple examination of Sheik's most effective options after d-throwing Marth. Improve you combos on Marth, and characters you can treat like Marth, with this guide!
* Sheik hitboxes and frame data - It's missing some things, but this is a great thread. See just how ridiculous forward air actually is! Gives good idea of how you should be aiming your moves to beat specific approaches.
* Frame advantage on block - See how much shield advantage or disadvantage (the latter is generally more common in this game) your move is meant to incur! I will be updating this with how to use it against aerials.
* How to SDI Fox's up throw > up air to survive! - A cute little guide I posted in the Fox forum explaining how to prevent this simple two-step from comboing you to ludicrous percents, and how to keep yourself alive when he tries to kill you with it. Features memorable characters such as Evil Gay Fox and Demo Kirby.
* The OP for the Sheik QnA thread - It has a lot of frame data on Fox and Falco's shield pressure, and various other goodies. Some old, yet relevant MU posts are also gathered there. It's a good resource in its own right, and the thread itself is still fairly active and good about answering questions so check it out! Many things there are also listed in here.
* Jab reset information by Magus420 - A successful jab reset is probably the most devastating thing you can hit against a non-teched opponent. Unfortunately, attempting one inappropriately or predictably can have the disastrous effect of letting your opponent out of your punish. Here's the percentages you need to know!
* Frame data for all things knockdown-related by Magus420 - Frame data about non-tech and all its various options that come with non-tech (roll left, right, stand, attack), and the techs (roll left, right, and stand). Also has information regarding distances, invulnerability, and more!
* Fox's Shine Grab Information - Also contains enough information for one to be able to figure out the data and relevant information for Falco's Shine Grab. Stale moves matters in tight pressure strings!
* Fox vs Jigglypuff MU guide - A lot of you might decide that Sheik Puff just isn't for you for one reason or another. This is fine. Here's how Fox does the MU.
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Character Matchups!
This is the section for character vs. character shenanigans. I might move this to the second post of the thread. I'm not quite sure yet.
How detailed this section will be largely depends on you guys and how much you want me to write, and how many useful things you guys can contribute. Good discussion makes for a better guide because then I know what to add, take out, elaborate upon, etc. So, yeah. Discussion is obviously encouraged.
I'm going to be doing these in no particular order. I'm starting with Sheik dittos and we can move in any direction from there.
Character Index
0.01 Sheik
0.02 Fox
0.03 Falco
0.04 Jigglypuff
0.05 Marth
0.06 Peach
0.07 Captain Falcon
0.08 Ice Climbers
0.09 Ganondorf
0.10 Doctor Mario
0.11 Samus
0.12 Mario
0.13 Pikachu
0.14 Young Link
I'm gonna stop there for characters just because I want those ones dealt with before we move any lower into the tier list. I generally feel the characters below those ones can be dealt with by generic grab nonsense, a good shield game, a good crouch game, needles, and SH fair (obviously don't limit yourself to just those, but simple turtling will beat the remainder of the cast pretty soundly and those are the most important aspects of her turtling).
All of the character-specific MU sections are split into a few sections. The three that will be present in every section, for each character, are:
1. Background Information
2. Mechanical Information
3. Combat Stuff
The first is just a brief history of the MU, any trends I see regarding the MU, and is generally just kind of cute trivia. I like trivia, so I'm including it. The second is anything that's pretty much absolute at this point, and not subject to change. Things like: basic edgeguarding strategies, percentages for combos, important basic two-steps that you should know, any important DIs, etc. The third is the longest because it's a compilation of some of the more effective strategies (generally basic ones; despite the detail, it's still being dumbed down for most of you) that I've seen, used, heard mentioned, or even concocted myself.
Some characters will have specific sections if there's something that doesn't fall into the above three categories that deserves its own section, or if I feel it would dominate one of the above three sections to such a degree that I'd rather just separate it to keep the guide tidy. This is somewhat subjective on my part, but I don't think any of you will mind.
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0.01 Sheik Ditto
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Background information:
Sheik vs. Sheik is becoming increasingly common in tournament setting and it's not too difficult to see why-- with such strong representation from players like M2K and Amsah, Sheik has, in recent years, developed a bit more of a following. Aside from more people being open to playing her, others are also once again recognizing her value as a secondary character.
If you are new to maining Sheik and want to play her in every MU, currently main Sheik and want to improve your Sheik ditto game because you feel you lack direction, or are in the process of picking up a Sheik secondary to use for the Sheik ditto and need some help to get you started then the following section of this guide is for you!
Mechanical Information:
Sheik can chain grab herself to 80% or so (barring platform interference) and finish herself off in a variety of ways. Tipped up smash works on anything but horizontal DI away and KOs starting around 75% (percentage is prior to the hit; hitting the tipped up smash at its minimum KO percentage can be very tricky and I generally don't recommend it). Beyond tricky things like that, you can simply kill by setting up an edgeguard at the end of the CG and following it appropriately (usually by fair, or tilt > fair).
If you are playing without chain grabs, you treat the combo tree pretty much the same as you would against Marth (only you don't regrab the DI away at low percents). D-throw > dash attack begins to be effective around 30% on DI away. If they DI elsewhere, generally up tilt is the best move (f-tilt is also acceptable at times, though).
Regardless of whether you're playing with or without CG, it is strongly recommended that you learn how to d-throw > dash SH rising fair at 50% or so. This allows you to finish CGs at the edge and transition into edgeguards effectively, rather than relying on them having bad DI on an f-tilt or whatever. It's very good (it is also very good against Ganon, Link, Pikachu, and several other characters).
To edgeguard, you generally want to force her to recover onstage and then punish her. Wavelanding from the edge onto the stage (henceforth to be referred to as "ledgedashing" for the remainder of the guide) into grab is one of the best things you can do because you can turn around and face off the stage, which traps them (run by nair if they DI behind, fair the DI away, either way they go offstage). You can also stand > grab, stand > d-smash, ledgehop dair, and a variety of other things.
If possible, needle to stop Sheik's momentum when she's offstage. Her air mobility is poor, and this will improve your chance of forcing her to Up+B, or prevent her from being able to reach the stage with Up+B, etc.
If she's close to the edge, remember that she doesn't get invincibility on her Up+B until frame 18. This gives you a good window to hit her out of its startup. Covering options with offstage nairs, bairs, fairs, etc. are a good way to rob her of her jump and sometimes even get gimps on her. It's very good.
Combat Stuff:
Combat in a Sheik ditto boils down into a pretty simple spacing game. One of the major players in this system is SH fair, simply because her SH fair is absolutely beastly. The other major tools are her grab, crouch cancel, shield, and tilts (in no particular order).
In general, Sheik's fair will beat most of her options if spaced properly under general conditions and is a fairly generic means of attacking (or defending, even). SH FF AC fair is therefore one of the widely popular and prolific techniques used in this MU.
Countering SH fairs is trickier than it looks. F-tilt works, but it's prone to trades (or even straight losing) because of how ridiculous SH fair actually is (consult the hitbox thread in the resources section for more detail!). Generally, for your f-tilt to beat her fair, you need to tilt proactively rather than reactively. Nair and bair can also be used to beat fair, but they generally have to be used proactively rather than reactively; given how long these moves hang out, this can be dangerous (although they make a great mixup!).
To reactively beat SH fairs, your options are generally going to revolve around getting under her hitbox and sneaking your hits in (rather than directly challenging it). For this reason, d-tilt, d-smash, and even dash attack are common answers to it. The first two are easily set up by simple crouch-WD movements, and even dash cancels if you're ballsy. The last can be implemented by a combination of trots, dash dancing, and using WD > dash variations to get momentum.
Countering opposing low hitboxes from the air is doable in a variety ways. One technique that Unknown showed me a while ago that I initially discredited was simply dairing over their move. However, further exploration of it (and playing with M2K) has lead to some revision and it's not that bad of an idea. Although dair can be true-CCed for a while, it begins to knock over fake-CCers at fairly reasonable percents (40%?). Jumping over dash attacks, d-tilts, and similar with dair can lead to some very silly punishment opportunities. Similarly, air needles can often be a pretty good answer and link to grab for heavy punishment. Doing an aerial like bair, nair, or fair later to compensate for the crouch is also a good option, although it can be countered by the opponent doing an attack that hits higher, earlier (this RPS system shift is largely unavoidable, though, and one of the reasons why crouching is powerful in this game; this also obviously counters the dair strategy as dair hits late naturally, because of its delay).
Ground vs. ground in a Sheik ditto generally boils down to whoever is more proficient at punishing lag and whoever's better at being evasive. If the opponent is playing mostly grounded but you have better movement and defensive habits, playing ground is probably a reasonable idea. In this case, you want to be aware that the ground game will be very crouch-heavy, in addition to being very movement-heavy. F-tilt will often miss if you do it close to a crouching Sheik, and her tilts in general are CCable for a while. Grab, down smash, dash attack (space it so you finish far behind them), etc. become very good tools in ground vs. ground Sheik dittos. Hurling a boost grab into their crouch, dash dance, etc. space can be a pretty good way to get a KO (but I'd generally be cautious about using it because if it gets predicted you can be grabbed back; it's not a bad idea if you can tell how they like to move, though).
[COLLAPSE="As a side note:"]M2K claims that down smash is very strong in non-CG Sheik dittos. Drephen likely agrees with this, if his style is any indication. I personally find the move hit or miss and somewhat situational, but it does have some great moments and it's one of the few moves that can straight beat her aerials reactively because of the invincibility. It's also a fairly good edgeguard, combo finisher, etc.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Another little tidbit:"] You don't want to be on platforms for very long in this MU. Although the prospect of optimal needle angles seems good, in practice you give the opposing Sheik too much time to get a good position. Either by getting under, or by getting a good angle to attack you from. Using platforms to reposition is great, and they do offer a good angle to attack from at times, but don't get comfortable on them. Staying on platforms is a good way to get wrecked by bairs, up airs, and various other shenanigans. It's a hard position to hold effectively.[/COLLAPSE]
The Anti-Shield Game
Sheik's shield is massive and her oos game is great so she gets her own section on how to engage a blocking doppelganger. If the opponent shields in a Sheik ditto, you have a variety of ways to attack it, but they all have counters, with varying degrees of severity. This does not mean that you shouldn't attack shields period, but be careful. Look for habits and condition (if possible and/or necessary).
The most common way to engage a shielding Sheik is to space your fair outside their shield grab range. You can do mixups with jabs and whatever but be careful because CC shield grab and CC grab mashing will **** that pretty hard and you'll get hurt. I think you can space the jab far enough for it to be immune to that garbage, but I'm not 100% on it so don't quote me on it. Fair > dash away is pretty good for this reason, because it allows you to punish counterattacks out of shield pretty easily but the drawback is that if the opponent retreats (with WD oos, etc.) it's very difficult to capitalize.
The reason for jabbing, tilting, or even down smashing after you hit a shield is to catch jumps, shield-grabs, and other shenanigans. Doing so, however, will encourage them to hold block and wait for the follow (whether they'll learn or not is another matter, though). If you can condition them to hold shield, fair > grab becomes pretty good.
Empty jump > grab is also a fairly reasonable technique because most Sheik shield pressure revolves around hitting an aerial and then following with an action (or waiting). This preys on the complacency many have, and the belief that "Sheik will hit my shield with an aerial."
Low nairs are also good because, after doing it, neither character is at frame advantage (assuming full power nair) which allows you to do a variety of things afterwards, including: dash behind the opponent (requires you nair sort of deep into their shield), dash away (requires you not nair deep into their shield), attack (grab becomes a reasonable option because, assuming they shield grab, whichever grab is timed better will win if you break even in terms of frame advantage and it's easier to learn offensive timings), and waiting.
Generally, you can counter most delayed aerials as Sheik with simple things like nair oos but you have to be careful against fairs because nairs have less priority. You can also generally look for spots to WD back, which is also an effective way out of shield pressure. In general, your goal should be to avoid doing something that will get you grabbed or hit into a massive combo when you're shielding. Counterattacking is a secondary concern.
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0.004 Jigglypuff
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A word from the author: I skimmed the Sheik board today and noticed people answering questions about this MU and several others. Since discussion seems to be shifting back into something I somewhat enjoy, I decided to craft the second MU for my guide. Falco is put on hold because I just learned a lot about fighting spacies that I wish to incorporate into his section and Fox’s section. Fox is on hold for a similar reason.
On that note, since Tope is leaving us to become an American pirate (and he’s perhaps the one of the only other Sheiks in the universe who I think is actually good at this one) I figured I’d give you guys something to chew on while I’m banned. This should cover most questions of the MU.
This part of the guide is strictly for NTSC.
All numbers are ‘before the hit’.
1. Background Information
This MU has a lot of history to it. In earlier times, this MU was considered easy for everyone’s favourite ninja. But the past few years (2009 onwards) have been a very interesting time for SSBM. M2K unveiled his super tournament-threat Sheik. Armada showed prowess on the national scale by taking second at Genesis with the Peach that changed how over two-thirds the Melee population looked at Peach. And we discovered a second heavy tournament-threat Sheik in Europe, something that we haven’t had in ages.
All of these were then stopped by the most hardcore pudding-pop diva-bunny ever. The aftermath was staggering. Numbers were tossed around haphazardly. Some claimed the Sheik Puff MU was horrific whereas others made excuses for inexperience. Whole regions began learning secondary characters in an effort to counter the jiggling menace. It was a very strange time. Nowadays, it is generally agreed upon that this one isn’t so grim. There is not yet a solid consensus on who has the advantage, but the strategy is at least beginning to be settled.
This is perhaps one of the most irritating characters Sheik faces for a variety of reasons. The constant proximity of death makes this a challenge that punishes you very heavily for slip ups – whether they are errors in tech or poor decisions. Many of Sheik’s time-honored advantages evaporate in the face of a character who resists combos, edgeguards, gimps, and whose range compares to yours. But Sheik is still a threat in this one if you understand Puff’s limitations, and she comes with needles. Even in our crazy Melee universe, sharp objects are still good against balloons.
2. Mechanical Information
There’s a lot of mechanical and technical information vs. Puff because her character design is weird and has all sorts of little gimmicks and nonsense.
Shield Counterattacks:
Are almost totally worthless vs Puff's aerials. It's stupidly easy for her to avoid it because of crouch, aerial mobility, range, etc. So unless they give you a cue that nair OOS or whatever will work (crossing up, being in the air forever, etc), then don't bother. Puff can decide for Sheik's nair OOS and shield grab to suck pretty much at will. So yeah, usually they're gonna suck.
Rest and Death:
DI Rest to kill yourself if you’re over about 10-15% (depending on stage and positioning) so you can punish her for hitting with it. This is important so Puff does not use Rest to cover too much ground either getting ahead or coming back when she’s at KO percent.
To get a feel for survivability, at the edge of Pokemon Stadium, up tilt Rest kills Sheik at 0 (according to M2K, who I trust). Use that as a general base as to whether or not it’s worth attempting to DI to survive or not. Generally it won’t be, but surviving rests when it’s appropriate to do so will prevent you from losing games.
Teching vs Puff:
Sheik has wonderfully huge tech rolls so tech rolling is actually really good against Puff. This forces Puff to take preemptive actions to cover multiple options or far techs, so if you can spot her cues (as to which she’s covering) you can often get out for free, which is great.
With non-tech options, rolling into her is absolutely horrible because it’s the easiest thing for her to react to and rest. It can be tempting to go for getup attacks to try and shake her, but be wary of rest OOS and her ability to fish for it with her DJs. Standing and moving away from her are probably going to be your best bet (usually).
On platforms it’s a bit different. Something you’ll notice is that in certain positions, Puffs like to down throw Sheik because if Sheik DIs anywhere but away, she can be directly comboed or rested. So it’s often used in certain positions where DIing away will put Sheik on a platform. In these cases, Puffs are usually looking for tech stands for the rest because they’re the fastest option. Try to observe which way the Puff is committing with her jump and trick her with a tech roll. You’ll sometimes get caught anyway and die, but the biggest mistake players make in this situation is limiting their tech selection to the stand; make Puff work to kill you.
Puff Crouch Mechanics:
Puff’s crouch mechanic vs. grab – Puff’s crouch will dodge Sheik’s dash grab and standing grab. For the first 10+ frames (not sure the exact amount) of her crouching animation, Jigglypuff sits still and you cannot grab this. However, after that period, she begins to fidget about at set intervals. While she is fidgeting about, you can dash grab to overlap her head and nick her.
Ground needles work similarly. You can shoot her with sets of ground needles when she fidgets, but not when she’s simply crouching. You need a bunch (3+) because the needles shoot low every third or second needle (forget which). Single needles will still miss.
In order to connect aerial needles > grab on her crouch, you require to connect minimum two needles during descent. The timing is fairly tight. You can practice this by setting a CPU Puff to crouch in training mode (calibrate the stick ‘up’) to get a feel for it. It is a reasonable trick. I do not recommend using this as a rest punishment (as many have suggested in the past) because of the versatility of the full needle set as an edgeguard, zoning tool, and combo finisher (which is worth more than the 6-9% extra from a needle grab setup).
Puff’s crouch vs. dash attack – Surprisingly, dash attack is one of the moves I like most against Puff’s crouch. Though risky, it’s a reasonably good trick if used correctly (and sparingly) for racking damage and even scoring kills vs. her duck.
At 50% (or so) your dash attack begins to knock her over. Knocking her down and down smashing isn’t a bad play by any means for racking damage.
At 80% (or so) your dash attack begins to launch her, in spite of her crouch. The reduced KB (because she was crouching) keeps her from drifting away too far. Tight timing is required for you to follow up on it (the stun is also reduced) but you can combo to fair and uair off this. At 90%+, it’s feasible to kill her with this (so I don’t really recommend you do it below that percent if you can help it, except perhaps on Yoshi’s Story).
At about 120% (or so) your dash attack begins to kill her on most stages (not Dreamland) if she’s not crouching (dash attacking beneath her bairs and such for a KO is not a terrible idea).
Rest Punishes:
These are fairly optimized AFAIK. There’s probably room for improvement but this is what I got so far. I do other stuff sometimes but these are tried, true, and work.
At roughly 75% on standard ceiling heights (BF, FD, FoD, PS) it is optimal to simply fully charge an up smash and KO her off the roof (from the floor). You will have to fiddle for more exact percents.
If she misses a Rest on the platforms of neutral Pokemon Stadium, you can tipper up smash her feet (her feet stick through the level and extend her hurtbox going down). On Yoshi’s Story’s side platforms, you can tipper up smash beneath her if she’s on the half of the platform closest to the center. It kills on Yoshi’s Story (fully charged) at something ridiculous (maybe like 23?).
If those options aren’t available you’re probably going to fully charge needles and then either SH an aerial (dair or uair) on top of her or do a down throw combo.
At 18% your strong up air (assuming full power uair) will knock over Jigglypuff if she attempts to hold down on it. This allows you to follow up with a down smash (even if she techs; if she tech rolls then you can dash attack or unload the set of needles and take the damage). If you’re ballsy, you can attempt a jab reset (which works if she continues to hold down on it, but if she doesn’t then you lose the combo). If she does not hold down on the up air and gets popped up in stun, you simply follow with more aerials. If you’re lucky, you might get a second up air into another aerial. You’re more likely to simply get a nair or fair, however. Do the up air as low to the ground as possible for this to be effective.
Dair functions similarly except it knocks over closer to 40%. Do the dair as low to the ground as possible to maximize your ability to dash after her DI (if she DIs away) so you can follow. This punish is effective up to about 60% or so.
If you are worried about platform interference with your jumps or whatever (relevant on YS and FoD) or simply want to do something easier, a simple d-throw combo (any fast aerial, probably fair or uair) will also suffice and do comparable damage. The main benefit to hitting her high as possible is positional, however, since Sheik likes to threaten with bair and needles as Puff is coming down. This is why the low uair and dair combos are good.
Throw Combos:
You can always link uair after you d-throw Jigglypuff. Below about 20% it's better to fair if she DIs away from your d-throw. However, around 20% the uair opens up a few options you don’t have otherwise (namely a second aerial, and the option to protect her landing area with needles or zone with bairs). Fair is still really good, though and easier to hit (if you mistime the uair you can be rested and it’s a fairly tight timing if they DIed the d-throw away). For non-lethal percents, pick your poison.
D-throw > up air kills her on away DI (on both the throw and on the up air) around 85-90% on most standard levels (not Dreamland, which is about 100%). You can sometimes play little DI games with fair (expecting her to DI to the side to survive the up air) if you’re near the edge at slightly lower percents.
The Importance of Storing Needles:
Puff is going to be luring you a lot in this MU so charge your needles whenever nothing is going on (if you’re in a safe position to do so). They are amazing. This is why:
Offstage: having the full set of needles gives your edgeguarding a buff because it allows for better and further distance needle cancels into fairs (or more needles) because of the longer stun time. It covers a larger area for longer too, which makes clipping jumps easier (her later jumps are smaller than her early ones, so following up on the edgeguard sometimes becomes possible). Even if you just rack damage on her offstage that’s completely fine.
Onstage: they’re just nice to have because comboing into the full set of needles off your stray fairs and such adds a lot of damage. Using the needles to keep her from attempting to land on the ground (and thus forcing her onto platforms) makes it easier to hit follows and rack damage. If nothing else, it exerts a weird form of pressure on her that she either has to respect and work around or she eats a good chunk of damage. Needles are incredible. Charge them. Love them.
3. Combat Stuff
Well, that was a lot of nonsense. Let’s move onto the fun stuff. The MU actually breaks down easily enough. There are just a lot of little rules that you are expected to know, and teensy nuances that you need to be aware of in order to avoid dying an untimely death to her godlike down+B.
Puff’s Air Game:
The most important move in Sheik’s entire moveset against Jigglypuff is bair. If you learn nothing else from this guide, learn bair. The Puff match comes down to a lot of aerial spacing and movement because of how volatile Jiggs can be against everything else. Bair has a lot of important traits for interacting with Puff aerials. Its range is huge and it has enormous priority. Just about anything in Sheik’s bair space will likely be trumped by it. Since Jigglypuff likes to jump to initiate, this is invaluable. The angle that Sheik aims her leg at is important because it makes it good for moving underneath and around the moves that Jigglypuff will be protecting herself with (which will often be her own bair). By moving away from Puff, it’s very reasonable to beat non-bair aerials aimed to go under Sheik’s bair, provided you can put enough distance between the two of you.
As a bonus, Sheik's bair often combos into itself. So it's even good for racking damage.
Sheik’s bair can be used to counter a lot of Jigglypuff’s generic bair spacing. The positioning is a bit over a bair’s length away (yours, not Puff's). Crouching under Puff's rising bair (both FJ and SH rising back air misses against your crouch) and then jumping up with your own bair is a good way to counter standard FJ double bairs by Puff. Falling aerials can be reacted to (jump and bair first; you have a big speed advantage) or punished with evasion (mostly jumping over them, maybe dash dance punish if you’re really quick [don’t try to dash dance grab]). Losing the rising bair hurts Puff. Similarly, if you notice she turns around to attack with a sex kick or dair (which can hit your crouch while rising) you can simply jump away and outprioritize it with bair.
As a quick side note, the crouch's effectiveness against her primary spacing tool enables a bunch of options for sneaking around. Crouch > WD movements are a pretty good way to fish for d-tilts, which can be a reasonable way to kill her at high percents (75%+). Escapable, but not a terrible plan. Anyway, back to bair...
The amount of aerial approach space that Sheik’s bair covers necessitates that an approaching Puff attempts to play around it or get under it. She can attempt typical lag punishes (usually with evasion > dash attack or f-smash, bairing further away, and grab stuff [run under bair, block, shield grab]) but these are handled mostly by not swinging blindly when she tries to bait the bair with farther-spaced jumps, or by simply keeping proper bair distance.
If you notice Puff is retreating a lot to try and lure you into attacking her, you can just shoot needles at her. Fullscreen bair camps by Puff give you ample opportunity to charge full sets and unload them as she attempts to land; pay attention to how she spends her jumps and when she’s bairing. Challenging her airspace aggressively when she is in full retreat is very difficult. It is very easy for her to move back further, double jump out of reach, or change her position in some similar way (which leads to you possibly getting hit). Hitbox drag works very favourably for her here. Half-retreats, stationary aerials, and weaves (when she jumps forward and pulls back) can sometimes be aerialed aggressively (or even naired around). This style of play is not bad when used sparingly, but do not underestimate her ability to drift further from you. Sheik’s low aerial mobility works against her here.
Up tilt does a good job covering approaches directly on top of Sheik. Puffs often attempt to nair coming down off of platforms or after they’ve been comboed (or similarly been forced above you). It covers an area that bair doesn't.
Puff comes with a reasonable pair of sex kicks so I’ll cover them briefly. They’re not really hard to deal with relative to her other stuff but you should know the basics. You can counter most of her SH sex kicks with SH back fairs, bairs, and even f-tilts. It’s also reasonable to sneak down tilts underneath them as she’s falling with them, provided you can move back enough. It is viable to CC down smash on them, but be careful because she can poke with nair and then drift back outside of your range (although if she commits and goes into you then it’s pretty good).
Against higher sex kicks (DJ and FJ versions), just treat them like you would any other high approach. Up tilts and bairs. Not much else to say. You can fair, if you want, and it can work, but her weaving is reasonably good against this whereas it’s much poorer against your bair.
Sheik on Platforms:
I wasn’t really sure where to put this so I put it here. Platforms are kind of a weird hybrid of air game and ground game.
Platform camping used to be the best general strategy to do the MU and it’s a useful skill to have. The platform camping principle is simple: Puff is slow going up and down whereas Sheik is not. Sheik moves fast across platforms whereas Puff does not. This allows you to get a speed advantage and zone certain areas very effectively; mostly through the needle triangle.
The needle triangle is very good against aerial Puff. If Puff approaches into the needle triangle of the platform then you can actually get some very good combos from it at low percents. Aerial needle (cancel on platform somehow) > run off fair > follow (f-tilt, fair, etc) is pretty easy to land if they jump into the needle. At higher percents you can exchange the run off fair with a weak aerial (bair) and link from there. This sort of thing relies a bit on Puff moving into the triangle zone, but it’s not a bad position for Sheik defensively if you can get up there safely.
One of her main counters is to get under you and shark with uairs through the platform. She will likely do this by shielding needles and WDing OOS deep enough into the triangle so the needles miss. You can do pretty typical shield stuff (lightshield to slide off the platform facing forwards; often get a free bair this way), run off the platform, or reposition with the top platform in response but there is a danger in being above Jigglypuff for so long. Those up airs can very easily kill you. I’m not sure how the shield drop interacts with her stuff.
Another thing she might try is to aim for Sheik’s face, outside the needle triangle. This requires her to have some height, however, because Sheik is atop a platform. This can be annoying, but isn’t unbearable because you can take the ground floor in response to this, and play Sheik’s typical game with bair when she’s below Puff. You can also simply bair or fair on the platform itself, or maneuver with the top platform.
Life on the Edge:
Puff is going to want to corner you at the edge. Your shield is very important in this position. Puff generally looks for people to swing at her, so she can punish the lag and score a gimp or bair chain (which converts into a gimp). It’s not unreasonable to return to the edge and replenish your shield in the event this happens. Having proficiency with ledgedashes can give you invaluable options in this situation. Small ledgedashes are an effective way to possibly catch Puff aiming her bair further away from the edge, in the expectation that you will ledgedash deep (or roll, get up attack, deep ledgehop fairs, etc). Once onstage, you can begin a less optimal version of the crouch strategy (you don’t have as ideal spacing) or attempt to dash through her. Going on the platform is similarly reasonable, but be wary of wavelanding forward when you do so (she will try to protect that space). Paying attention to her positioning and whether she can cover that option is very important. Once you’re on the platform, if you didn’t waveland forward, you can decide to go around her or return to land (if she’s going high in preparation of you going forward on the platform) and see if you can make back ground through the middle.
It will be tempting to go for the middle with quicker, more dynamic actions (roll, waveland, etc). Wavelanding across the side platform and rolling to the middle are not terrible options when used sparingly but try to do them when Puff is committed to something else so you don’t get punished for them (particularly the roll; you can be rested for it).
Another important thing to note about being by the edge is that you will probably tempt Puff into going for grabs on you by shielding so much. If possible, try to WD back on these efforts (other actions can be stuffed by her changing her mind and going for an aerial, WD back, etc). If WD is not available because of space constraints, you may require alternative options (SH, FJ > platform, FJ > waveland, etc). Jumping OOS on attempted empty jump > grabs is also fairly good (this is also a point in the MU where sidestep has a lot of potential, though it’s admittedly risky).
Sheik’s low dash is conducive to running under aerials. For this reason, running through Puff’s aerials to reach the middle (or even just to get under her) is not unheard of. Dashing under her bairs is not a bad way of positioning yourself to attack her (dash attack, rising aerials, etc) or push her away from the middle of the stage.
When Sheik has Puff pushed to the edge, your game does not really change too much. Positioning should be roughly a third of the stage’s length from the edge (can vary, depending on how competent you are with platforms, etc). If Puff is holding the ledge, shooting ground needles as she comes up with whatever is a fairly simple, effective way to put pressure on her without risking anything. Unload, charge, repeat if necessary. However, be careful – being near the edge often makes Puffs go for riskier plays (gimmicky throw setups, Pounds, cross up aerials, etc) so be wary of these and punish them accordingly. Be patient; make her do all the work. Bairs are your friend. Pounds and b-throws are probably the most dangerous thing here, so watch for them the most. If she pounds your shield, remember that you can do more than simply nair OOS (up smash, grab, and up air OOS can all be good).
In general, if you have Puff with her back to the edge, you’re probably doing well so long as you’re not getting gimped. Puff is less troublesome when she’s pressured.
Handling Grounded Puff:
A lot of the above has mostly related to Puff when she’s in the air. Grounded Puff is a little different.
On grounded Puff you mostly want to be facing forward (if you’re intending to challenge her). There’s not really much you need to do about her ground game when she’s not crouching or shielding. If she’s not crouching then standard SHFFAC fairs are pretty effective (they need to be a bit lower because she’s short). If you’re on defense and she’s grounded, be wary of her efforts to WD into you and pierce your shield with up tilt. You can shield grab her up tilt, on that note. Her dash attack goes quite a distance too so be aware of that as an option but it can similarly be shield grabbed. You can hang outside her f-smash range pretty easily and just wait pretty effectively versus most of her ground stuff.
Her crouch is annoying, but not really that different.
On her crouch, you really only have a few options to engage it directly. Low fairs are okay; so are aerial needles. You don’t necessarily need the needles to combo into anything, but linking them into down tilt or down smash is a pretty good way to rack damage. Going for the needle grab is okay but requires you essentially be in her face for it to work and that can be dangerous (her spontaneously doing up tilt out of crouch, or moving under you with WD is a real threat). Beware of typical stuff against low aerials (her jumping with an attack, WD back > attack, etc).
Riskier options include down smash and dash attack. Puff can shield punish both of these with aerial OOS fairly easily. But they aren’t horrendous against her crouch (they have percentage restrictions so you don’t get crouch-rested; down smash is weird against shields and near the edge).
Finally, you have the option to simply not engage it all that much. This is not a bad option at all. Invoke the platform needle position. Her crouch doesn’t actually do much if you’re not close enough for it to be relevant and it doesn’t do anything against platform play. So if you decide you do not feel comfortable challenging the ducking Puff, there’s nothing that says you really have to. Charge your needles across the stage and wait, prepare to down smash her if necessary as she WDs into you, go under a platform in preparation of FJ needles > needle cancel if you want, and so forth. Make her come to you and reposition. It’s really not that bad.
All this stuff with needles, down smash, dash attack, and low aerials will likely encourage blocking by Puff. Believe it or not, you want her to block. This is the one time in the MU where it’s actually okay to go for grabs on Puff without it being some kind of lag punish or gimmicky needle setup. However, it is strongly advised you max-range your standing grab. The standing grab and range requirements are precautions so she does not get a rest for sidestepping something; if you do the dash grab, the lag makes it possible to be rested from sidestep and other OOS options. Puff crouches when she jumps OOS so max ranging is similarly important to reduce risk of rest KO and force her to punish with aerials and such, which are manageable. It is not guaranteed by any means but this system allows you to fight with a favourable risk-reward for Sheik on the table, which is rare in this MU.
Empty jump to grab is your friend. Walk forward grab is your friend. Dash to crouch or WD down (to break the momentum so you can space) grab is your friend. Give her the impression that you are going to do something she can shield-punish, or that she wants to shield, and then grab.
Edgeguarding Puff:
Shoot her with needles whenever you can. Stealing jumps and stuffing pounds are very, very important!
On high recoveries you sort of have to accept that there’s nothing you can do for sure so you just want to stay below her and threaten with whatever you can. Bair, up tilt, f-tilt, jab, even CC d-smash. Be wary of pounds. There’s not much to say about this. Sheik is one of the characters that actually can jump offstage and swing a bair at a high Puff, but it’s very risky and if Puff spots you doing it then she can usually pull back enough to avoid the bair (and possibly pound at you and kill you). That said, it’s not a bad idea to threaten with it (remember to avoid the pound!) and abort mission, grab edge, etc. If you see her attack offstage for whatever reason in your range (whiffed pound, fair, etc) then feel free to swing.
On low recoveries, whenever you can ledgehop nair a Jigglypuff into the edge and stage-spike her, do it. None of them have ever really learned how to ledge tech, so if you catch them hugging the wall (which will happen sometimes, because they’ll try to do it to make your bair soft hit) then just nair them. Beyond that, shoot them with as many needles as you can and make them drop as many jumps as possible. Needle > fair if you can. Hitting strong bair gives them height (assuming they survive it), but if they’ve lost a bunch of jumps then it’s not bad to do it just to push them away and force them to Pound a bunch to recover. Otherwise, you generally want to minimize how much height she can gain and try to choke her jumps as much as possible. Again, I stress don’t get pounded (or baired or whatever attack she swings with). It is likely that she will try and trick you by hovering just outside your ledgehop bair range; just shoot her with needles for this.
I want to stress that you be very careful with your invincibility because trades can very easily kill you in this position. Edgeguarding a low Puff recovery is hard to make lethal even if you rack a lot of damage (barring a stage-spike). If you drop an edgeguard because you hit with a poof or naired her across the stage when she air-dodged up, that’s not as bad as risking your stock because a pound traded with something. Racking damage is perfectly fine.
General trick: if Puff goes over the lip of the stage after 100% or so on most stages then it’s reasonable to just ledgehop uair and attempt to kill them. Nair is also good because of its size, duration, and how easy it is to strong hit.
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0.007 Captain Falcon
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KirbyKaze has not completed Falcon yet. So in the meantime enjoy this wonderful guide written by the lovely and talented Armada!
Armada's vs Falcon guide with Sheik
