Kirby the Duck - Ducking Viability and Discussion

[Aunt Jemima]

Here's where you can discuss Kirby's amazing ability to duck under attacks. I'm currently finding out the list of moves that Kirby can duck under, so as of right now, just discuss the power of ducks.

 

[Agent Emerald]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y30q6kw2qPw

This video may be relevant to this discussion. As seen in other threads, Kirby can duck under attacks, so there's a possibility he can duck under grabs as well.

 

[Asdioh]

discussion more like duckscussion

Also I'm pretty sure Kirby's crouch is better than Jigglypuff's in every way. So that video is a really helpful starting point.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

discussion more like duckscussion

Also I'm pretty sure Kirby's crouch is better than Jigglypuff's in every way. So that video is a really helpful starting point.

Does Kirby crouch shorter than Jigglypuff?

Anyways, to get some discussion rolling, what do you guys think are good punishes after crouching under a move? D-Tilt is pretty nice, but it really depends on whether it trips or not.

 

[Unknownkid]

Dtilt, Dsmash, Upsmash, Grab.

I wish we can do Fsmash or Dair but they come out too slow.
Side Note - I was able to dodge Little Mac KO Punch just by ducking. Got 5 out of 5 with my brother being Little Mac. However, like the Jiggypuff video, there is an instant the Punch does hit you.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Dtilt, Dsmash, Upsmash, Grab.

I wish we can do Fsmash or Dair but they come out too slow.
Side Note - I was able to dodge Little Mac KO Punch just by ducking. Got 5 out of 5 with my brother being Little Mac. However, like the Jiggypuff video, there is an instant the Punch does hit you.

Yeah, Kirby can duck under the K.O. Punch. The windbox usually sends Kirby across the stage, so he can't really punish. I usually just duck and then grab as fast as I can, because, if timed correctly, you'll both fly towards the ledge and then you can throw him off.

 

[Unknownkid]

Woah! That is cool! Thanks for the information.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

...

KIRBY CAN DUCK UNDER THE FALCON PUNCH

 

[Unknownkid]

YES!

How about falcon kick and Raptor UpperCut?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

YES!

How about falcon kick and Raptor UpperCut?

I doubt Raptor Uppercut, since Falcon swings his arm up, but Falcon Kick is possible.

EDIT:

 

[ryuu seika]

That is not how you deal with a Falcon Punch. If you have the hat you should be hopping backwards and charging your own so as to hit Falcon after his punch falls short.

Kirby doesn't seem as able to abuse his duck as Jiggs but he can sure annoy the heck out of opponents.
The most practical use I see is to compensate for Kirby's lack of projectiles as, while crouching, most opponents will struggle to hit Kirby with projectiles either.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

That is not how you deal with a Falcon Punch. If you have the hat you should be hopping backwards and charging your own so as to hit Falcon after his punch falls short.

Kirby doesn't seem as able to abuse his duck as Jiggs but he can sure annoy the heck out of opponents.
The most practical use I see is to compensate for Kirby's lack of projectiles as, while crouching, most opponents will struggle to hit Kirby with projectiles either.

We weren't having any serious matches, lol. We were doing Falcon Punch matches, and I decided to test out if ducking under it works. I didn't really care about punishing or anything, haha. I mean, I thought it was obvious by the fact that he ran into my mouth and did the Falcon Punch three times before moving, but I guess not.

Anyways, I'm going to be testing out more duck-y stuffs soon.

 

[Phan7om]

Kirby's crouch has always been lower than Puffs, so I can assume its the same for this game.

But im really excited for all the stuff Kirby can duck under, it feels a lot lower than it did in Brawl. If it can Duck the FP... oh man, i just might main him! I also want to know the frame data on FP, I can assume its the same from Brawl. I wanna see if there is enough frames to duck it, use it right after the hitbox ends, and get Falcon in his endlag before he shields... Sounds too good to be true lol.

 

[ryuu seika]

I swear Kirby could duck under Falcon Punch in PAL Melee too. Was hilarious to Dtilt (or even C-stick Fsmash) them if they somehow managed to charge close enough to stop you back jumping or Inhaling in response.

@ Aunt Jemima : Sorry, I thought that was an AI fight. It's good to know you can duck the punch but it's so evadable that I don't really see much use in it and I would definitely rather be counter-punching.

 

[Mettie7]

Kirby can duck under a few of Robin's thunder-tome spells, most notably Thoron

 

[ryuu seika]

Kirby can duck under a few of Robin's thunder-tome spells, most notably Thoron

But not all of them?

He can duck under Mario's fireballs and Doc's pills unless perfectly spaced and Luigi also has some problem hitting him with projectiles.

 

[Mettie7]

But not all of them?

He can duck under Mario's fireballs and Doc's pills unless perfectly spaced and Luigi also has some problem hitting him with projectiles.

It was on For Glory so I wasn't paying attention that much. He was just spamming thunder-spells so I should've been testing it. I know Thunder and Thoron he can duck under, I would guess he can under Elthunder and I'm like 90% sure he cannot duck under Arcthunder.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It was on For Glory so I wasn't paying attention that much. He was just spamming thunder-spells so I should've been testing it. I know Thunder and Thoron he can duck under, I would guess he can under Elthunder and I'm like 90% sure he cannot duck under Arcthunder.

If he could duck Arcthunder...

I'm going to test it out right now.

EDIT:

KIRBY CAN DUCK UNDER ALL OF ROBIN'S THUNDERS

 

[ryuu seika]

Yay! Kirby wrecks projectiles!

 

[Mettie7]

God bless, I could've sworn Arcthunder would be too bug for him to duck -- I'm glad I'm wrong

 

[Xmark]

Can kirby cancel his dash animation by ducking? If he can ima be sooooooooooooo hype

 

[WootSnorlax]

Can kirby cancel his dash animation by ducking? If he can ima be sooooooooooooo hype

No he can't sadly. You can't cancel run by ducking either.

 

[ryuu seika]

Fortunately, he can "instant" dash attack so as not have to spend time in his unduckoutable dash before hand. This is done by smashing forward to initiate the dash and then immediately moving the stick to another position and hitting a. Most players find rotating to down a the easiest.

This works because the dash startup is intended to cancel into a forward smash for practicality reasons, meaning that there is an input window for an A attack but, since this is still technically part of the dash animation, all other non-dash attacks are disabled. By inputting a non-forward direction, you prevent the game from reading it as forward smash + A and force it to consider your input as dash initiation (+ unusable directional data) + A instead, thereby bypassing the normal need to wait for the Fsmash window to end.

The dash attack can then cancel into a few other things such as Usmash and grab but, unless Kirby's dash attack cancelled grab has significantly more range than his standing grab, this seems like needless complexity.

 

[Sugawolf]

Damn, if only we had an amazing punishing move like rest :/

Unfortunately, I can only see this being useful offensively to get in a grab, jab, or a couple of tilts in. Maybe a Dsmash if it comes out fast enough and that's only when crouching under moves like Falcon Punch. Also, certain projectiles would be better off being avoided in the air since many of Kirby's match ups require an aerial strategy anyway.

Still this a great "Oh crap" option and if used correctly can be a way better option than shielding certain moves.

 

[ryuu seika]

With a C-stick, so many more options would be viable out of crouch.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Okay, this is just sad.

So far, from my testings...

---

Zero Suit Samus:

F-Tilt

F-Smash

Dash Attack

Jab

Paralyzer (Neutral B)

-----

This essentially eliminates half of her ground game, one of her greatest kill move, and her best combo starter.

Her main kill moves, as far as I can tell, is her recovery move and her F-Smash. Kirby can easily air-dodge her recovery move and punish her, and duck under her F-Smash.

Might be more, but those findings are from a couple of FG ZSS matches. Ducking under her grab may be possible, but I'm not sure.

EDIT:

More testing is needed, but Kirby can duck under ZSS's main spacing tool, Plasma Whip (her Side-B). I'm not sure if he can duck under the end of it, but I was able to duck under it while I was next to her several times.

EDIT2:

Just ducked under her grab. Needs more testing, similar to her Side Special.

EDIT3:

Okay, ducking under grabs is confirmed - doesn't matter on spacing, Kirby can duck under her grab. Sadly, I'm not sure about her Dash Grab, but I'm sure it's the same thing. Her Side Special is a bit confusing - I was able to duck under it sometimes, but couldn't at other times. This requires more testing.

 

[Asdioh]

Pretty sure Kirby has an idle animation (just like anyone else) that changes his hitbox. When idling in crouch he kinda looks around, in older games it made his hitbox go slightly higher, enough to be hit by some moves that would normally miss. It's probably the same in this game. Just an FYI in case you didn't know.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Pretty sure Kirby has an idle animation (just like anyone else) that changes his hitbox. When idling in crouch he kinda looks around, in older games it made his hitbox go slightly higher, enough to be hit by some moves that would normally miss. It's probably the same in this game. Just an FYI in case you didn't know.

Oh, thanks for that! I actually didn't know that, haha. It seems the same in this game, as Kirby stands up a little during his idle animation while crouching. Also, when you talk about the idle animation, are you talking about the "Wait" animation where Kirby looks behind him, or just the standard animation while he's crouching? Such as, Kirby flinging his arms around while standing is his idle animation, while doing the animations such as briefly falling asleep are his "Wait animation. If you're actually talking about the regular idle animation, that may be a problem.

 

[Asdioh]

Both I believe. Character hitboxes should generally stay true to what their bodies are doing.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Both I believe. Character hitboxes should generally stay true to what their bodies are doing.

Hmm...

I just checked his crouching hitboxes in previous games, and it doesn't seem to be as bad in this game. The regular idle animation barely even moves him up, moving the front of him slightly upwards and the bottom of him slightly downward, so it's probably not an issue. His waiting animation moves him up quite a bit, so that may affect him.

However, I'm a bit skeptical that the hitbox moves correctly. As we've seem with several moves in this game, some hitboxes/hurtboxes don't match up with the actual animation. Going and testing this on long moves such as Thoron, Kirby's wait animation looks like he's in it, but not actually hurt.

 

[Vinylic.]

He can crouch under Ganon's Wizard foot. Warlock punch as well, methinks.

 

[ryuu seika]

He can crouch under Din's fire to avoid setting off the projectile but can still be hit if it explodes above or near him. Infact, he can crouch and/or Usmash under much of Zelda's moveset, including her supposedly highly powerful throws, as well as being able to Inhale or even Jumping Inhale (weird because it has no vacuum) her through the phantom, totally screwing her over if she tries to edgeguard with it (free swallowcide). I have a feeling Kirby simply owns Zelda in this game.

 

[Phan7om]

Kirby just ducked Fox's grab on Zero's stream. And if he can duck Fox's... holy shiieeeett!

 

[Unknownkid]

If he can duck what? All of Fox's kills move should still hit Kirby regardless of ducking.

 

[Phan7om]

Just talking about all the stuff Kirby can potentially duck, since he can duck Fox's grab. I wasnt saying Kirby couldnt be touched or anything.

 

[Sugawolf]

Can confirm, ducking against Zero suit is amazing.
I'll put up some videos soon.

 

[GUNSHOT]

I'm new to Competitive smash so forgive me if I say something that is already known in the community. Since Dtilt trips people, against people who like to dash (lets use ZSS for example) I get a free hammer on reaction. since her dash moves dont hit kirby because of duck, that is one less approach you have to worry about. I love Dtilt as a poking tool.

 

[Asdioh]

Can confirm, ducking against Zero suit is amazing.
I'll put up some videos soon.

Yeah I just played one, its pretty gross how badly crouching shuts her down.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Yeah I just played one, its pretty gross how badly crouching shuts her down.

It's so fun because nobody actually knows about it yet, lol.

 

[Sugawolf]

So of course I forgot to record the best examples I had of this, but here are all the times I used it within the first three matches.
Granted the games were a bit laggy, hence why I couldn't always punish properly. (Lol at the completely whiffed tilts)