Kirby the Copy Cat - Copy Ability Discussion (OLD)

[extremechiton]

i must say shulks copy ability is quite fun. with shield mode, kirby no longer dies early. kirby with speed is fun to zip around with, and whats not to love about kirby's 0% combo with buster mode to rack up the damage. jump kirby can do plenty of up air strings, and even venture off stage for longer periods of time. and smash kirby, that hammer just doesnt need any more power to it.

 

[Masonomace]

Hey @ Aunt Jemima I dig this thread & am willing to assist in Copy Ability Discussion in favor for Shulk or Lucario, but mostly Shulk.

Here's a table showing specific stats that are affected from all 5 MArts in favor of Kirby, to help us get a good idea of what exactly Monado Kirby can really do. (Sorry if you all were aware of this in advance):

Art | Increased stats | Decreased stats 翔(Jump) | Jump Height / Air speed / Falling speed | Defense / Weight 疾(Speed) | Movement speed / Air speed | Damage dealt / Jump Height 盾(Shield) | Defense / Weight / Shield health | Damage dealt / Jump Height / Movement speed / Air speed 斬(Buster) | Damage dealt | Defense / Knockback dealt / Weight 撃(Smash) | Knockback dealt | Damage dealt / Weight

The eye-openers here I feel to address is the Shield Health increase from Shield mode, along with Speed being used more in favor for Kirby rather than using Jump for a few reasons:

1. Jump mode reduces your weight & you take more damage. Both of those factors can make you even lighter than
2. Speed mode doesn't reduce anything except damage dealt & jump height, but Kirby doesn't really mind the reduction of jump height, since ya know, 5 airborne jumps + Final Cutter. Not to mention your grounded grab-game is improved with the likes of advanced grab techniques such as Pivot grabs, Pivot Boost grabs, etc.

Also, to make note, Jump Height affects Final Cutter's jump height too (and I believe the lateral drift movement too but don't quote me on that), so if you like Jump anyhow the vertical height increases. To add-on in favor of Jump Kirby, a walk-off drilling D-air in most situations may gimp / meteor smash someone so low to the blast line below, that they'd likely be KO'd & Jump Kirby makes it back np.

 

[moofpi]

I think Olimar's hat is one of my favorites because it just takes his skill and turns it into a machine gun. Kirby throws pikmin one at a time in the order Olimar does but they don't stick, they just do hit, do their elemental effect, and disappear. Rinse and repeat. Meanwhile Olimar has to pluck them when they disappear, keep up with them, and rely on them. It's pretty nice.

 

[Claxus]

@ Masonomace Unfortunately, MA Jump for KIrby doesn't boost his Up-B, nor does his D-air fall any faster (for some reason it just temproarily reverts his air speed), but it's probably easier to follow-up with a footstool at mid percents. Doesn't really need the up-B boost though, when a single air jump goes even higher than Final Cutter.

Also worth saying again here that Buster Kirby is cruel. U-tilt will combo all the way to the 50s, maybe even 70s against Bowser and gang? Makes his D-air > U-tilt combo game devastating. B-throw into B-air becomes a legit combo (26%), but it has to be pretty early. N-air and F-air also gain a ton of combo ability.

Also, I second the notion that Olimar's ability is good stuff. I actually almost feel bad when I copy him, Kirby's Pikmachine is so much better than Olimar's, and it can cause a lot of confusion for his Pikmin.

Thoron is also one of the best copies. So good it wears out.

 

[Masonomace]

Well that's a bit of a bummer / damper on Jump Kirby. . but like you said it means little since his aerial jumps are still amazing. The falling speed increase can make on-stage air camping a mind-game too. Buster Kirby is well-armed when you have the advantage, to torture.

Also, copying Lucario's Aura Sphere while Lucario's at an early % makes me feel bad for Lucario because his Aura has to scale for a while until it reaches Kirby's set-damage-size-and-knockback Aura Sphere. And the Aura Sphere Charge setups Kirby has makes ASC > OoS > B-air is fairly solid as an option.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Yoshi's Copy Ability is so good for the MU, oh my god.

It's a lot faster than Inhale, and a lot safer than Inhale. You can use it while Yoshi is standing on the ledge while you're off-stage to kill him, and it's amazing for edgeguarding Yoshi. B-Reversing it makes it even better, haha. I totally recommend grabbing it if you get the chance.

Managed to beat a Yoshi in semi-finals by killing him with it, haha. I lost at finals, though. Sheik is scary. Was a Bof5, I beat her first two matches, she beat me next two matches, then I got killed by a Bouncing Fish on the last stock. We both had one stock, and she was 2% up before I died, lol. Her needles are amazing for the MU.

 

[Claxus]

I'm not too sure about Yoshi... I don't think his copy ability should be KOing. If they're on the edge, they can push back on stage in egg form. If not, they can still mash out and recover. I think it requires their up-B though, so you may be able to gimp them with some tight timing.

Vs. Sheik is pretty rough, but I find Kirby at least has the attack speed to keep up, and definitely has more KO power, and Sheik is gimped with one good aerial off-stage. I don't think the needles are as annoying as usual since Kirby can duck under them... All easier said than done, but yeah. Nice job making it to a close finals match.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'm not too sure about Yoshi... I don't think his copy ability should be KOing. If they're on the edge, they can push back on stage in egg form. If not, they can still mash out and recover. I think it requires their up-B though, so you may be able to gimp them with some tight timing.

Vs. Sheik is pretty rough, but I find Kirby at least has the attack speed to keep up, and definitely has more KO power, and Sheik is gimped with one good aerial off-stage. I don't think the needles are as annoying as usual since Kirby can duck under them... All easier said than done, but yeah. Nice job making it to a close finals match.

If I am correct, at higher percents, it's harder to mash out of the egg. Using this, all you need to do is get Yoshi off-stage, then B-Reverse the move, so you'll catch him through super armor or whatever, which is great. Also, by "ledge hopping" the move, I meant while you're hanging on the ledge, click down, then jump back up and eat them with the move. You'll fall down a little bit, which makes it so they can't get back on-stage with it. If you do that on a map like Final Destination or Battlefield, when they try to move closer to the ledge to get on-stage while an egg, they'll end up pushing themselves under the stage, making it harder to recover. Also, it just puts Yoshi in a bad position.

When I was talking about Sheik's needles, I meant using them with Kirby, haha. It was poorly worded, so it was easily mis-read. The Sheik I played in GF switched between offensive and defensive playstyles. While he was playing more offensively, N-Airs could usually keep him away. I could also shield grab him a bit, although I forgot to U-Throw and instead did B-Throw a lot. Sheik is a bit hard to gimp off-stage, as her "Vanish" on her recovery can easily kill Kirby if he tries to hit her when she does it. The needles help the MU a lot, though. You can play a better defensive game, keep away, and can help you combat her needles. Also, aerial needles while she's recovering are fun.

 

[Claxus]

Higher percents does make it harder to mash out, but I believe there's a limit to how much. I tried it at 200% and the AI was able to mash out and recover. Tried it at 300%, and it was about the same. And mashing out of stuff is the one thing the AI is good at for testing, so yeah... But I was wrong on one thing, getting them with it off the edge off stage makes them unable to get back like you said. I tried it earlier on stage right on the edge, but those few milliseconds of falling makes the difference. But anyway, it sets up for gimps, since they have to use their up-B to grab the ledge, it should be fairly easy to follow with a D-air. And if you can catch them with it during their double jump, they're done for. Doesn't even have to be a B-reverse if you go out and chase them further off stage.

For Sheik, one thing I can say is that flopping fish can be double edged... It's really fast, powerful, and absurdly safe, but only if it hits something. If you can spotdodge it, you get a free smash attack. Just gotta learn to react to that flopping fish sound on instinct. And on walled stages they may use it to recover since it has this silly wall-climb thing if it hits a wall, but Kirby can easily D-air during that. Both that and Sheik's up-B (especially) have a good bit of startup, though, so you don't have to worry much about getting hit while chasing off stage if you're confident you have good momentum, except if she uses her aerials. I mean, it's definitely not easy to get Sheik off stage, but edgeguarding I think is one of Kirby's few advantages in the matchup.

 

[Augi Jr.]

Guys let's talk about the viability of Mewtwo's copy ability.

Yknow I had totally spaced on the fact that with every new character that gets introduced for the game is another new skill/ability that Kirby gets to play with as well. It's the character that keeps on giving isn't it?

For me though, with how integral using his opponents abilities against them is to Kirby (I mean that's what makes his games so fun) it's a shame that it's so difficult to GET those abilities from your opponent in smash...

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

we shouldn't talk about mewtwo's copy ability until we know whether or not he has a new one. It's two generations of smash, and how many gens of pokemon now since Melee? He even has a new signature move,

 

[extremechiton]

not to mention mewtwo with custom moves is going to be hype.
yet kirby can not copy custom moves which is a real shame.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

not to mention mewtwo with custom moves is going to be hype.
yet kirby can not copy custom moves which is a real shame.

If I recall, Kirby was meant to copy Custom Moves. I remember the ROM having extra files, it was either for Palutena or the Mii Fighter's Copy Abilities. They most likely didn't do it because it'd take WAAAY too long.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby's main gimmick barely ever gets talked about here, despite being incredibly useful against some characters.

wat

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

copy ability, what's that?

 

[Runt]

anybody else wish that kirby got some abilities from his own games as well as all the moves you can do with them? they shoulda made it so kirby has no special moves until he copes an ability. it would give the copy ability more of a reward. in his games I'm always frantically chasing my lost power around the stage because i don't want to fight without it. but this doesn't translate well at all in smash. i realize thats a lot of work to do so it probably won't ever happen but its a shame cuz i want his copy ability to be useful lol. like if he eats links bomb he should be bomb kirby. or aura sphere can make him fighter kirby. thunder jolt = spark kirby n so on. but anywayyys i just think it would b cool lol

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

... that would be awful and Kirby would be pretty crippled by that, (only having specials after copying.) especially with how easy we can lose a copy ability by being hit. Lose an ability, we lose the Up B recovery, which is already not great. It works in the Kirby games because they're built around that, but it wouldn't work at all in smash.

Kirby's copy ability IS useful, it's just that INHALE has so many problems that people rarely seem to use copy.

As for getting powers from items and attacks, while I like the idea as a gimmick, it'd be a lot do work to do in smash, Kirby is probably just better off just getting his enemy's power.

 

[Runt]

idk he might b crippled by it but then again that would be another advantage to actually having a power. but like i said i kno it will never happen. i think its just cool to think about lol

 

[Claxus]

Kirby having no specials, then inhaling an enemy and getting a certain canon ability, i.e. Bomb from Link (or Sword, and Bomb if he inhales a bomb, lol) and Ninja from Sheik and Greninja, Parasol from Peach, etc.. Wow. That would be so cool. I mean, it would really play on his abilities thing, which... Is quite limited in the Smash series. There's probably just too much work involved, though. What if he instead copied a character's four specials slightly rebalanced for himself? Of course that's also without having any specials himself beforehand.

Wishful thinking aside, at the moment most of the times it feels a bit too much like a second thought gimmick that doesn't really blend into his playstyle, with only certain characters really being worth (or just more worth) the risk of going for the copy. Like with Ike, I don't see any use for Eruption at all. And when against Shulk, it's an incredible copy ability, that really challenges Shulk's own playstyle. G&W sausages, Diddy's peanut gun, Fox laser? Meh.

I wish they did some more with customs, he's really a character that could have gotten the Palutena/Mii treatment, at least. He has Ice Breath which would have been cool if his Ice hat popped up with it, but perhaps he could have gotten a charged Plasma shot for B (a toned down Thoron, really). A clone of Peach's Up-B could have been a custom, etc....

Ah, well, too much wishful thinking... It would be so satisfying to have an ever-changing playstyle like Kirby really is. I just wish his copy abilities were more centric or at least useful to his playstyle, rather than being negligible on several characters.

 

[Runt]

i also thought about copying all the characters specials but i guess some moves like ROBs side B would be weird but I'm sure nintendo could make it work. but yea i agree with everything you just said. so much wishful thinking haha

 

[Runt]

p.s. also kirby should be able to inhale more than 1 enemy at a time and get the copy chance wheel (more wishful thinking. ok I'm done now haha)

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Shouldn't we be discussing what Kirby is able to do with his actual copy abilities in this game instead of what we wish for? Little tricks that we can make use of, possibly even better than the original owner themselves because of our size, multiple jumps and ability to position ourselves?

Like how Charizard's fire breath can make it very difficult for Charizard to reach the ledge when recovering? Mario's fireballs/ pills for recovering/off stage play, Our luma shot being better than Rosalina's, even after the Nerf to it. Best time to use Sonic's homing attack if we somehow get stuck with it. Robin's ability has some very nice potential for combos, spacing, killing, edge-guarding and more.


We should also discuss team applications and implication. The sheer number of copy abilties he has in this game gives team so much potential. In a team battle with three player or more, That's a lot of copy abilities to choose. So many abilities so little time.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I think every Copy Ability has a use, it's just that some are less than obvious. Such as, while Ike is recovering, you can charge up the move, then use it while he's at the apex of his jump. If he's recovering right below the ledge where his sword will hit you, you can SH the move so that it doesn't.

 

[Masonomace]

What Copied abilities would be considered less useful than the original host's Neutral-B? (My knowledge of Kirby is minimal) Times like that I'd wonder if the spit attack would be more useful, though I can agree that every Copy Ability can be utilized decently, or greatly.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I think every Copy Ability has a use, it's just that some are less than obvious. Such as, while Ike is recovering, you can charge up the move, then use it while he's at the apex of his jump. If he's recovering right below the ledge where his sword will hit you, you can SH the move so that it doesn't.

Hey reserved, we should test that dash-slide with copied abilties, maybe?

 

[WootSnorlax]

Hey reserved, we should test that dash-slide with copied abilties, maybe?

Thinking about it, can you use inhale while doing the dash slide?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Thinking about it, can you use inhale while doing the dash slide?

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I believe Inhale cancels your momentum while grounded.

 

[Asdioh]

Have I not done this before? I'll go through the entire character list and give general impressions (aside from Miis screw those characters)
edit: actually the mii abilities are tornadothingy (swordswoman), shot put (brawler), and literallySamus (gunner) right? They're all decent/great projectiles so just take them.
Note that if you land an Inhale, unless you want to Starshot to get them offstage, or if it's for a 2v2 attack, you should usually Swallow because it does more damage. You can always use downtaunt to get rid of the power if you REALLY don't want it. I sometimes keep it because I like the hat (like Ness' power)

Bowser: Take it, it's free damage. Basically unpunishable, though Bowser players claim it needs buffs because people somehow punish it. Doesn't seem like Bowser himself can punish you using it on him though, probably due to his large frame and weight.
Bowser Jr: It's a bit slow, and you can't combine it with mechakoopas/clown cars for a lot of zoning, but it can be an alright projectile to force him to do what you want.
Captain Falcon: Inhale is better against him. The punch is only useful for obvious reasons. "For Glory"
Charizard: Same as Bowser, use it. It can even stop Flare Blitz (sometimes, don't count on it)
Dark Pit: it's a projectile, use it.
Diddy Kong: it's a projectile... but it's not very good. It can have uses, but Inhale seems to be pretty good against Monkey Flip (feel free to test this, I would assume the kick beats Inhale but the default flip does not). I do take Peanuts to camp Diddy and force him to approach when I'm ahead/have a banana in hand.
Donkey Kong: Bthrow->fully charged b-reversed Punch is a true combo at 0% and does like 30% damage. The move itself is just good, would recommend.
Dr. Mario: good for gimping and camping, even if he has the cape.
Duck Hunt: very good
Falco: pretty useful
Fox: not as useful, I'd still take it though, it can be free damage when he's far away
Ganondorf: has super armor so if you get a super hard read you can use it and get a very early kill, otherwise I'd prefer inhale
Greninja: Kirby can't followup as easily (he doesn't have the runspeed to true combo out of it like Greninja does, I believe) but it's still very good.
Ike: I believe Eruption has super armor at some point, I'd take it and use it to edgeguard or punish a predictable attack.
Jigglypuff: it sucks, don't use it.
King Dedede: it's literally better, and can eat gordos (why is Kirby's Inhale so BAD AT EATING THINGS COMPARED TO D3/WARIO WHEN THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT KIRBY DOES)
Link: free damage, helpful gimping, forces approaches when ahead, it's pretty useful, even if Hylian Shield can block it sometimes.
Little Mac: it has all sorts of super armor but it leaves you super vulnerable, and Inhale is good against him.
Lucario: take the HECK out of this move for obvious reasons
Lucina: shield breakers are very good in this game, take it.
Luigi: projectile, good.
Mario: projectile, good.
Marth: see Lucina
Mega Man: very good if you use it diagonally or grab and throw it, it's pretty worthless if you just stand there and throw it forward, since his pellets/metal blade/crash bomb all cancel it out.
Meta Knight: it's an aerial kill move. of course you take it!
Mewtwo: if it's like Melee, take it! Hopefully he's not a clone of his melee self though!'
Mr. G&W: take it! projectile! very useful!
Ness: it's awful! It'll never land, and it can heal him! Cool hat though!
Olimar: it's GODLIKE
Pac Man: it's GODLIKE
Palutena: it's actually really good for pressuring. Shoot it at the apex of a short hop it to ensure the reflected shots won't hit you.
Peach: it's a pretty useful counter actually. It can even kill at high %.
Pikachu: projectile, good.
Pit: projectile, good. Why does Dark Pit even exist.
ROB: projectile, good.
Robin: projectile, GREAT.
Rosalina & Luma: it's GODLIKE
Samus: it's GODLIKE
Sheik: it's GODLIKE
Shulk: it's GODLIKE I'M REALLY FEELING IT LOL MEMES
Sonic: it's garbage sorry
Toon Link: same as Link
Villager: pocketing trees or bowling balls etc. can potentially net you instakills. Absolutely worth risking if you're behind. Be careful about getting instakilled yourself when ahead. Slingshot stuff is also useful to grab but can be difficult. Obviously a very useful ability.
Wario: it's basically a much better version of Kirby's ability, thanks Sakurai
Wii Fit Trainer: projectile, good.
Yoshi: eh I personally am bad at using it, maybe if you're good at landing it it's more useful than Inhale
Zelda: actually a really good move, a good "get off me" attack, you're immune to Din's Fire during this move so it makes it easier to dodge, and you can reflect Phantom if they're dumb enough to use that
ZSS: very good projectile obviously

Thinking about it, can you use inhale while doing the dash slide?

No you stop dead with all specials.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I believe Inhale cancels your momentum while grounded.

Already tested it, inhale cancels it like you said.

 

[WootSnorlax]

Oh darn. Sliding Stone hype dead.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Well we can already do a sliding stone without turning around. So we have that.

Also reserved.. Do you think it might be a good idea to share what you showed me with robin's copy? You should do it, if anybody does.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

@ Asdioh

Agree with all of it, except Ness' PK Plus is actually useful for edgeguarding him. Instead of risking your whole stock trying to hit him while he's using PK Thunder, PK Plus will catch him out of it and kill him. He's so close to the ledge when you use it that he's bound to die no matter the %, lol.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Did you really just call it PK Plus?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Did you really just call it PK Plus?

I fdon't wanna call it PK Flash. In Melee, I swear to god Ness is saying Plus, not Flash.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I used to hear PK CRASH

 

[Unknownkid]

Diddy Kong: it's a projectile... but it's not very good. It can have uses, but Inhale seems to be pretty good against Monkey Flip (feel free to test this, I would assume the kick beats Inhale but the default flip does not)

Yes, this is correct. Inhale beats Default Flip/Monkey Grab but the Monkey Kick is sort of inconsistent. I was testing this with my younger brother. Here are the results:

At a distance (near the end of the move), Inhale wins.
At the beginning (when the jump starts), Inhale wins.
At the halfway point (the jump and kick at it is peak), Inhale loses on the ground. You need to short hop and inhale to catch him.
Both in the air and at the peak of the kick, Inhale loses sometimes. The Inhale will grab him but the attack/hit will knock us out. If Diddy activate the Kick early, Kirby get hit. But if he activate it late, Inhale gets him? I don't know.

Side Note - Inhale is slow and I believe we all know this. So you cannot just inhale on reaction. You have to read the monkey flip/kick.

 

[Claxus]

In my experience, Inhale gets beat out a lot from angled attacks, but beats out many attacks straight on. I'm pretty sure it's just that the attack itself (when they actually get into 'hitstun') is directly in front of Kirby, while the suction all around that is a windbox. So attacks that hit before they line up horizontally with Kirby usually beat him out.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

While @ GrnFzzTgr and I were messing around, something strange happened. When I copied Olimar, Kirby's Pikmin LATCHED on to people. I was confused, so I tested it offline, yet they didn't match and instead did the usual quick hit. After a bit more testing with Grn, we found out something incredibly odd. Kirby's Jumping Inhale custom actually CHANGES THE ABILITIES. We're currently testing other characters to see what else is affected by this custom, and would appreciate if more people tested out abilities.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

So far it seems like no other abilties are changed, it's probably a glitch with Olimar's copy but it works in our favor.

 

[|RK|]

I'm trying to think of how useful Lucario's Aura Sphere would be against Lucario...

Don't get me wrong - it is a good ability to take. But many of the tricks I'm thinking of don't work as well without the sheer size from Aura scaling. Is it big enough to edgeguard with the charge? If so, that's a fun trick. B-reversals for mixups are obvious, edgeguarding is always great... Use the b-reversal charge for pressure, etc. Full charge is good for the KO power, but partial charge gives you more options...

God, I need to practice my Kirby. I'm not feeling him as much this game