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Against a Fox at 20% after uthrow and neutral DI, you have a frame advantage of 12. It takes 7 frames to bring the grab hitbox out, so this leaves 5 frames for positioning.
Green type invincibility.
Yeah, it’s pretty much +1 leniency frame after every second upthrow. (Every 1% more damage the victim has increases the hitstun amount by 0.2184, rounded up. Because upthrow is staled almost to its maximum when you get to the chaingrab part where you need to pivot, you will only add about 2.4% damage with each upthrow. Multiply this value by 0.2184 and you get roughly 0.5, so every second staled upthrow increases the amount of hitstun and thus the time you have for positioning by 1.)
Thanks a lot for testing this!
Ha! It is now marth related!
No problem! I will cover the entire chaingrab and platform plus finishing options eventually.
I don’t fully understand the hookshot yet, here is what I have found out so far:
Latest dair does just hit a vertically sweetspotted wall-collided Illusion, but it will not hit a shortened Illusion or a horizontally sweetspotted Illusion. Aerial neutral-B has similar properties in this micro-interaction. It even hits a double-perfect sweetspot (horizontally and vertically) if done very precise (3-frame window).
It’s perfectly fine, there are so many things to research that I often forget some that I wanted to refine; I’m happy you brought this up and reminded me again. It’s just a bit tedious because there are so many variables – what are Fox and Marth’s starting positions and states, does Fox still have his jump, which direction does he hold while falling, when does he start with his Illusion or Firefox, how many frames do we assume the Marth player will react after, etc. etc.
Yes, as long as your reaction time is not much more than 10 frames. It’s impossible to give a hard value here due to the many up-B positions.
No problem! It’s just a combination of natural curiosity and lots of spare time.
Let’s say a Fox is doing an early shffl nair on your shield and you buffer a roll away after the nair hit. Counting from the first frame your roll away is clearly distinguishable, Fox has 16 frames time to react with dash → jc upsmash. This should be enough for even slow players. Also, these 16 frames even allow missing the l-cancel and still getting the punish on reaction.
No. During shield, the first inputs that are checked are control-stick, then C-stick, and then buttons.
Z produces a grab even when L∨R are depressed. However, there is no incentive to do such a complicated string of inputs when you can simply grab on the first frame after shieldstun.
Yes, it’s a 6 frame window. If you start the wavedash 6+ frames later than possible, Fox’s shine can hit you before you get the grab out.
It’s a zero- to one-frame-window depending on your falling speed. If you are hanging from the ledge and fastfall down, there is not a single frame on which an up-B can be done so that it edgecancels if you use the standard up-B angle. I also was not able to find any fastfall frame and up-B angle combination that produces an edgecancel so far.
OMG! Thanks for this Kadano!I don’t fully understand the hookshot yet, here is what I have found out so far:
At the position in the animation you quoted, pressing A on frames 4-9 and on 29 or later of your 313 animation will cause the teleport. This frame window is the largest when your hookshot hits as high as possible. In the animation above, it’s a bit lower than what would have been optimal.
More or less, but it would take ridiculously long to explain this in detail. Suffice to say that on all stages, aiming for the highest part of the wall is optimal, although the frame windows for pressing A differ from stage to stage due to the hookshot’s ECB alignment.
It depends on damage before hit, character, DI and timing. In some situations, shdf hits fairly reliably. Even at 0% before hit, SDI+ASDI away will escape the second fair.
Dtilt tipper alone is −6. Weaker dtilt hitboxes are −7. I won’t go into staleness details as you can calculate this with Strong Bad’s Knockback Calculator or The same tool with Toomai’s complete hitbox collection for easy referencing.
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Sheik
What does that mean for these percent ranges: 9-11%,14-16%, 18-20%?
There's no real reason to miss the DI on fthrow in Marth dittos. You can react to it pretty easily with practice.
Well I don't use it
I usually just try to throw them off the edge. I find damage doesn't get me anywhere in the ditto.
At very low damage you can f-throw into f-throw, and a little higher than that it forces a tech at least. It still gives advantage. I don't think up-throw is useless, I just don't use it so that's why I said I felt it's a waste.
Okay, so like 4 damage. And unreliable, at that.
While forcing a tech chase will generally result in an advantageous position for you, how is it better (read: less of a "waste") than being below a character which sucks at getting down with a character that's amazing at juggling?
F-throw into f-throw is for moving your opponent, not racking up damage.
When you are on the ground or in the air (getting spiked off the edge)?
You move him an almost negligible distance at the cost of potentially not getting any follow-up whatsoever, when you COULD be setting up a juggle.
No, you do not have to do "a ton of damage" to get an airborne Marth off stage. In fact, it's much easier to send him off stage that way than by d/fthrowing him towards an edge over and over.
