Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[SpiderMad]

Does tap jump buffer out of anything other than shield stun? It feels like it buffers from the first frame of empty landing lag, but I'm also curious if it buffers during the last few frames of a move's animation (accounting for ASDI obviously).

I was able to get it to buffer jump out of shine in debug menu, forget if it's 2 or 3 frames of buffer and don't know if it buffers for everything.

 

[tauKhan]

It's always three frame buffer to smash inputs except for sdi on control stick according to Strong Bad. Also @ SpiderMad there is buffer to jumps out of shine. You can do it with x or y also, so it doesn't tell anything.

 

[SpiderMad]

When I tried X/Y to buffer jump out of shine, it doesn't, you had to wait until it hit the time u could jump out to be able to, but with Control stick it would buffer before u reached the window

 

[tauKhan]

Are you sure. It also must be pressed on 2nd or 3rd frame, not 1st. But perhaps my source was wrong,

2nd and 3rd frames - very slight lag, no attack or reflection, the jump button can be pressed during these frames, but it won't take effect until frame 4

taken from op of Stratocaster's Multishine: an extensive guide thread on falco boards.

Edit: Went to the lab myself, and I was certainly able to press b x in fast succession, but not at the same time and get falco stuck in shine.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mult...e-updated-8-13-10.214549/page-4#post-16531135

 

[Kadano]

Does tap jump buffer out of anything other than shield stun? It feels like it buffers from the first frame of empty landing lag, but I'm also curious if it buffers during the last few frames of a move's animation (accounting for ASDI obviously).

Upward control stick smash inputs keep their smash input properties for 4 frames. If the game checks for strong upward during these 4 frames and you keep the control stick held upward, the corresponding action will be triggered. This is what you call a hold-buffer.

This kind of behavior is universal, so it works for shine and landing lag (indeed starting on frame 1), shield stun, IASA and many other things, except SDI.

@ Kadano :

im sure you know how from 0-17(ish), fox and falco can DI slightly behind marth to force him to do turnaround grab instead of standing grab, but since it is slight DI, it can throw off marth's judgment.

would you have any way of showing the SLIGHTEST possible DI (i.e. the closest to no/neutral DI) where marth is forced to turnaround grab (gif or still image is fine)? i usually try to judge the CG based on fox/falco's position relative to marth's hand (from the uthrow), and i feel like if they're barely behind marth's hand, you can still turnaround grab, but i guess i want to know the visual cues with 100% certainty

i mean, i get it would change with percent

but idk, maybe there's something you know that i don't

The thing is, the DI values that make the difference are so slim that it’s hardly possible to notice them if the Fox player knows how he needs to hold the control stick.

For example, at 0% before throw, DI with x=163 will keep Fox in Marth’s no-turn grab range, but DI with x=164 will make Fox evade it, so Marth needs to turn. Here is a gif that shows the difference between 163 and 164 for the first 5 frames of hitstun:

If you can tell these differences in a match, you deserve an award of some kind.

It's always three frame buffer to smash inputs except for sdi on control stick according to Strong Bad. Also @ SpiderMad there is buffer to jumps out of shine. You can do it with x or y also, so it doesn't tell anything.

3 frames for dashes (and some other stuff probably), but for upward inputs to hold-buffer jumps, it’s definitely 4 frames. (Unless you don’t count the activation frame, which would make it 3 frames buffer.)
X or Y don’t (hold-)buffer jumps out of shine. Nor anything else, save some hitstun animations.

 

[tauKhan]

So you actually have to hold the stick to up for the buffer to work. I actually thought it would be like buffering jump techs. But it makes sense, otherwise you could have dashes buffered to both directions, now that I think of it.

 

[SpiderMad]

when i expiremented with tap jump to buffer jump out of shine, you didn't have to hold it

 

[Kadano]

when i expiremented with tap jump to buffer jump out of shine, you didn't have to hold it

Well, my experiments never produced that outcome. But the recent phenomenon of “Shine Mines” has proven that even with the same ISO, different testing environments can produce different viable results.

I used an NTSC 1.2 ISO with a few hacks that shouldn’t interfere (default settings and the likes) and both Melee’s develop mode frame advance as well as Dolphin’s frame advance. Because I can’t stand the latter’s 2 frame input delay, I only used it to make sure it wasn’t caused by Melee’s frame advance.

 

[SpiderMad]

let me see if we're talking about the same thing.

in debug menu with Falco with normal Melee 1.2 iso on dolphin
Frame 1: Down-B
Frame 2: Up on Control stick
Frame 3: Nothing (Control stick back at neutral)
Frame 4 i think: Falco jumped out of shine

I also did the same thing with side-b and pressing Up on control stick, one press allowed the jump to buffer up to 3 frames after the input when side-b ends

heres what my setup/testing is like, i barely know what im doing so idk if people even use different settings or something https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtOSf5iZhnY

 

[Kadano]

I did the same thing with Fox (and now Falco as well) and he didn’t jump when I let go of up before frame 4.

 

[SpiderMad]

do you have an unmodified iso to test on? if not ill pm u mine sometime today or tomorrow

 

[Kadano]

do you have an unmodified iso to test on? if not ill pm u mine sometime today or tomorrow

Of course I have. I got the same results with it when using Dolphin’s frame advance.

 

[SpiderMad]

Interesting, I might record myself performing it sometime or stream it to see if there's some sort of incosistenticy

 

[Signia]

Hey Kadano could you do that "perfect pressure on Link" thing again, but turn the camera to Link's perspective, facing Marth? It'd be the most intimidating gif ever.

 

[DJ _ICE]

Hey Kadano, got two requests. Can you get a gif of how Marth's Fsmash poking through the platforms on YS, PS and BF from standing? And second a max length Marth wavedash?

What would also be nice, is how you make all these .gifs and helpful charts in case some people want to learn to make their own, teach a man to fish and whatnot

 

[ZoSo]

Kadano, @ your avatar, you are even more my hero than you were before.

 

[Kadano]

Hey Kadano could you do that "perfect pressure on Link" thing again, but turn the camera to Link's perspective, facing Marth? It'd be the most intimidating gif ever.

Would you rather have a camera that follows Link’s movements or a fixed camera?

Hey Kadano, got two requests. Can you get a gif of how Marth's Fsmash poking through the platforms on YS, PS and BF from standing? And second a max length Marth wavedash?

What would also be nice, is how you make all these .gifs and helpful charts in case some people want to learn to make their own, teach a man to fish and whatnot

Do you want to see how much range of the platforms you can cover with fsmash in both directions?
In the very first post of this thread, under the section “Movement options”, there are some gifs that use wavedash. All of them are max length (343°).

I can do that, sure. I think a stream session on Twitch would be best suited for that. At what day and time would you like me to do it? Please include your time zone as well.

Kadano, @ your avatar, you are even more my hero than you were before.

I’ve had that avatar for many months, how come you notice it now all of a sudden? (But I’m glad you like it as well, I love the artwork by burari. It’s so in line with Nausicaä’s personality.)

 

[tm]

I can do that, sure. I think a stream session on Twitch would be best suited for that. At what day and time would you like me to do it? Please include your time zone as well.

PLEASE

I don't care when you do it / if I can watch live as long as you save the broadcast.

 

[ZoSo]

I’ve had that avatar for many months, how come you notice it now all of a sudden? (But I’m glad you like it as well, I love the artwork by burari. It’s so in line with Nasicaä’s personality.)

Truthfully, I seldom check Smashboards nowadays, as I don't have regular access to a PC in my current living situation, and browsing/responding to threads via my cell phone can be very tedious.

Anyway, Nausicaä, both the story and the character, have been favorites of mine for some time. I have the entire manga and a hardcover of watercolors by Miyazaki. You'd probably appreciate some of the selections in the latter.

And as always, huge thanks for what you're doing here. Dr Peepee recently told me that he believes modernizing and optimizing Marth is the key to keeping the character relevant. I really believe you've done more to facilitate this than anybody else.

 

[Kadano]

Truthfully, I seldom check Smashboards nowadays, as I don't have regular access to a PC in my current living situation, and browsing/responding to threads via my cell phone can be very tedious.

That’s too bad; I love reading your posts.
Did you do away with it because of space / time / money or to free yourself from it?

Anyway, Nausicaä, both the story and the character, have been favorites of mine for some time. I have the entire manga and a hardcover of watercolors by Miyazaki. You'd probably appreciate some of the selections in the latter.

It feels so great to hear that! The manga was probably the best book I’ve ever read. It had such an impactful, life-affirming ending that was, in my opinion, really brave in at what a deep level it criticized and, kind of, opposed human culture. Since I’ve read it, most other movies and stories fail to catch my attention; the severity of the story fades in comparison. The only books I’ve read since then are those by authors like Charles Eisenstein, in case you know of him.
I’m sure the manga can be interpreted in many different ways, that was just a short summary of what I think about it. I suppose you’ve read »Shuna no Tabi« as well? I read it after Nausicaä and to me, its story was ultimately a different expression of the same feeling/thought Nausicaä was about.

And as always, huge thanks for what you're doing here. Dr Peepee recently told me that he believes modernizing and optimizing Marth is the key to keeping the character relevant. I really believe you've done more to facilitate this than anybody else.

Oh, that’s sweet of you. I love Melee’s gameplay so much, but I’m not really motivated by competition, so researching all the things we wonder about when we play, but are unable to figure out quickly was the natural thing to do for me.

 

[Signia]

Would you rather have a camera that follows Link’s movements or a fixed camera?

Follow his movements if you can.

 

[Bones0]

First person Melee is the future of gaming.

 

[Kadano]

What would also be nice, is how you make all these .gifs and helpful charts in case some people want to learn to make their own, teach a man to fish and whatnot

PLEASE
I don't care when you do it / if I can watch live as long as you save the broadcast.

http://www.twitch.tv/kadano92/b/526766347
It’s a 1 hour session, of which the first 50 minutes are completely uninteresting. I’m terrible at streaming.
Skip to 49:20, that’s when I start showing how I process the frame dumps and combine them into .gifs.

Follow his movements if you can.

I will produce the gif you requested within this stream session.

 

[ZoSo]

That’s too bad; I love reading your posts.
Did you do away with it because of space / time / money or to free yourself from it?

It was entirely a result of the former, but the latter just happened necessarily and I can't say I really mind.

It feels so great to hear that! The manga was probably the best book I’ve ever read. It had such an impactful, life-affirming ending that was, in my opinion, really brave in at what a deep level it criticized and, kind of, opposed human culture. Since I’ve read it, most other movies and stories fail to catch my attention; the severity of the story fades in comparison. The only books I’ve read since then are those by authors like Charles Eisenstein, in case you know of him.
I’m sure the manga can be interpreted in many different ways, that was just a short summary of what I think about it. I suppose you’ve read »Shuna no Tabi« as well? I read it after Nausicaä and to me, its story was ultimately a different expression of the same feeling/thought Nausicaä was about.

It sounds like you connected with it on the same level that I did. I've never read or seen an ending that was so completely satisfying and yet still left me wanting more. I feel it's extremely difficult to write an ending with such a powerful message that doesn't appear preachy or ham-fisted, which I guess is why it took Miyazaki so long to finish it. Perhaps even more amazing is the way Nausicaä superficially appears to be an "action girl saves the world" type of story, and yet completely shatters expectations. He really just lays down some simple truths, and it's really hard to not be affected by it.

On a related note, the watercolor compilation really makes me think Miyazaki is just a sour old man, since every single piece includes a blurb, written by him, explaining why the piece is awful or doesn't properly capture the character. It's interesting to see how he drew her when he was asked to for periodicals, promotional material, and whatnot, compared to how he actually envisioned the character.

Also, I haven't read Shuna no Tabi. I'll give it a look.

I've used quite a few Nausicaä avatars over the years. I used one of Ohma that was probably my favorite. Might be time to find a new one!

Oh, that’s sweet of you. I love Melee’s gameplay so much, but I’m not really motivated by competition, so researching all the things we wonder about when we play, but are unable to figure out quickly was the natural thing to do for me.

Well, you're doing a fine job. I'll try to post more if I have questions.

 

[SpiderMad]

Is there any .gif or video out there of any aerial/move of any character that has some kind of indicator or color change to indicate when it has reached an autocancel or IASA window? I'm trying to make a video describing each besides this one I made before that was kind of long

 

[tauKhan]

I’ve looked at it for some hours and I have a little bit of understanding now.
To cause a shield drop, you must input values of 72<x<184 Λ 72<y<76¹. Also, Δy must be above a certain threshold (don’t know the exact value yet).
Here are your options after waiting with a neutral (128,128) shield:

Every pixel represents a value of the control stick resolution. These should be correct.
By slowly angling your shield to the side you effectively move the roll and spot dodge areas away, but the shield drop area hardly becomes larger (the x thresholds increase a bit, so after holding 175,128 for ~10 frames you can shield drop with 186,75 which would have caused a roll immediately after shielding / holding 175,128 for only 1-3 frames or so. The y values always stay at 73-75!).

Have you done any more research on shield drops? I feel that you don't really have to hit the 72-76 on y axis, since if you land on a platform, hold stick neutral, pause, hold stick full down and unpause, you can shai drop if you time shield right. Also are you sure that the x threshold doesn't increase a lot when you hold to side? When I do shield drops, I always roll stick to side, and I'm pretty sure I can do shield drops without having to worry about the x at all. I'm curious because I teach some other players how to do shield drops, and I tell them to move stick to side first to get more consistent results.

 

[Kadano]

Have you done any more research on shield drops? I feel that you don't really have to hit the 72-76 on y axis, since if you land on a platform, hold stick neutral, pause, hold stick full down and unpause, you can shai drop if you time shield right. Also are you sure that the x threshold doesn't increase a lot when you hold to side? When I do shield drops, I always roll stick to side, and I'm pretty sure I can do shield drops without having to worry about the x at all. I'm curious because I teach some other players how to do shield drops, and I tell them to move stick to side first to get more consistent results.

Yeah, I’ve figured out quite a lot more in the meantime. I don’t remember where I posted it though, lol. I should have started the index in the op sooner.
Well, I’ll do a video about it anyway. That will be more accessible.

 

[tauKhan]

So do you think that moving stick to side is the easiest method?

 

[Kadano]

So do you think that moving stick to side is the easiest method?

I found the post I remembered, it’s on the German Smash Boards: http://forum.germansmash.de/showthr...-Antwort-Topic&p=728933&viewfull=1#post728933

In case you can’t read German and want a short summary:
By holding soft down on the control stick for 4 frames (downward part of the white area in the option overview you quoted), the shield drop area (red line) will increase dramatically for 2 frames. It will extend over the entire area below it in the illustration. After these 2 frames, it will vanish completely.
Thus, all you need to do to reliably shield drop within 5-6 frames is to move your stick down with a certain speed that will reach the red line or the area below it after no less than 5 frames.

Shield dropping in 1-4 frames is possible, but absurdly difficult. It’s even harder than pivot edgehog.

Btw, is there a consensus on the difference between “ledge” and “edge”? It feels so stupid to refer to the Cliff as “ledge” while calling the practice of grabbing it “edgehog“ (instead of “ledgehog”).

 

[SpiderMad]

Shield dropping in 1-4 frames is possible, but absurdly difficult. It’s even harder than pivot edgehog.

Is there a way to tell if someone did it within the 1-4? Does Lovage usually do it in the 1-4 in this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238BPPK4xd0#t=255
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFQ8gk3bnrQ#t=15

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Interesting shield drop tidbit!

Any idea why the "dash->shield while holding dash direction->roll stick quartercircle downwards" method shield drops so well? Or works at all? Because based on that image, and your follow-up, I wouldn't think it would....I never touch the red zone when doing my stationary shield drops..

 

[Kadano]

Is there a way to tell if someone did it within the 1-4? Does Lovage usually do it in the 1-4 in this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238BPPK4xd0#t=255
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFQ8gk3bnrQ#t=15

If you want to know, download it and count the frames starting with the first frame of the shield. Multiply by 2 because Youtube is still capped at 30 fps … urgh.

Any idea why the "dash->shield while holding dash direction->roll stick quartercircle downwards" method shield drops so well? Or works at all? Because based on that image, and your follow-up, I wouldn't think it would....I never touch the red zone when doing my stationary shield drops..

IIRC, the dash→shield drop technique relies on holding down-forward for a few frames before you start shielding. Thus, by the time your shield bubble comes out, you are already at one of the two “huge shield drop area” frames where spot dodge is disabled, so you will drop instantly.

 

[Bones0]

Is there a way to tell if someone did it within the 1-4? Does Lovage usually do it in the 1-4 in this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238BPPK4xd0#t=255
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFQ8gk3bnrQ#t=15

Those are dash shield drops (see Kadano's explanation above).

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

IIRC, the dash→shield drop technique relies on holding down-forward for a few frames before you start shielding. Thus, by the time your shield bubble comes out, you are already at one of the two “huge shield drop area” frames where spot dodge is disabled, so you will drop instantly.

No, I don't hold down forward at all.

Facing right its

Dash right
Shield
HOLD right (I can hold for as long as I want)
Quartercircle down 45 degrees
Shield drop

And it works every time. Note: I don't necessarily have to dash right, but rather just get my joystick held right before my shield comes up. So L-Cancel -> hold right during lag, etc also works. Most commonly I shift into the held position during shield stun

Anecdote: based on my experience, it works much better when the controller shell has its joystick enclosure carved into a full circle, without the restrictive hexagon. Sung prefers the hexagon though, so maybe thats just me.

This is the method I, Sung, and Axe (afaik) use. We're 3 of the best shield droppers out there, so I figure its worth looking into.

[I only do my stationary shield drops this way; I have another method for running ones I prefer. ]

 

[oukd]

@ TheCrimsonBlur

that doesnt make it easier for me, i still spotdodge a bunch
granted i dont shielddrop that often nowadays but i used to in 2013 <_<

im not the legendary frame god himself, but i think it could be your thumb positioning after holding in a direction. perhaps holding one direction prior to shielding positions your hand so that doing the shield drop action is just more comfortable. idk

also on the anecdote:
- with a circle gate it makes it easier to do a slow "easing" movement so that you don't suddenly slide too fast off the edge of the octagonal gate
- i assume sung likes the gate because he has a god controller with perfect notches. that or he's just used to easing on the octagonal gate edge

anyways, i think kadano's findings will be more valuable than my own thoughts on the matter. lol

 

[d z]

I would imagine all of the regions extend horizontally but its not easy to get to the horizontally extended parts without rolling unless your shield came up with the joystick already in a roll region. The interesting question is whether the quarter circle in Blur's method perfectly hits the Shield Drop line to get the sub 4 frame drop or if the sliding motion just makes it really easy to stay in the white zone for 4 frames before getting the bigger shield drop window.

Also not to get too off topic but @ TheCrimsonBlur do you have a method for going from downward angled shield to shield drop? I can somewhat consistently do it by easing the joystick from fully down to halfway between down and neutral back to down again but nowhere near enough to actually apply it. I wonder if it might be better to smash the joystick left/right in shield stun and then go with your usual method...

 

[tauKhan]

I do exactly as TCB describes, and I feel that I can do the motion with different speeds and still succeed. And d z doing shield drop from downward angled shield is imo still super difficult with this method, and prevent me from going for shield drops vs opponents under me.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

The major benefit of the method I use is that you get full aerial control in the direction you're holding. This is insanely useful, especially for Marth, as going straight down after the drop will get you untippered aerials. In the rare scenarios where you want to go straight down with your aerial movement, instead of full left or full right, just double tap fastfall after the drop.

Also, though I haven't tested it, I'm positive this method drops on the first available frame ... there is no way its dropping on frame 5-6 like the straight down method (effectively) is ... So I think its the most practical way of getting frame perfect drops. Definitely requires testing though, as I don't think any of us are sure -why- it works; if you don't hit the red "drop" area, why do you drop?

Another important note is that you can put your shield up in the neutral and slowly move to full left or full right and then do the drop, without rolling. Its generally better to have it held the moment you put up your shield, but if your stuck in neutral, and you want to drop without getting shield stun first, its still possible. I'm not sure exactly how fast (in frames) you can go full left or full right without rolling, but I've gotten pretty fast with it now (would be interesting to know!); it can't be more than a few frames. If you are already holding a direction (let's say right), and want to drift fully left after your drop, just release the control stick back to the neutral, and then slowly move all the way left. That ones a little more time consuming.

----

To answer d z's question: dropping from a downward angle shield is interesting. Like Kadano said, simply holding the down angle direction morphs the red zone for a few frames. I'm not sure how this would affect the practicality of either method, but I have a feeling it lowers the consistency of the straight down method, since it relies on the red zone, and you can never be sure just how big the zone is at any one moment.

What I do is downward angle -> shieldstun -> go back to neutral -> hold left/right -> quartercircle down. For whatever reason, going back to neutral increases my consistency a lot. Its still really difficult, but I'm already decent at it, and I'm confident that with practice, its totally doable and realistic.

 

[Signia]

I played a Sheik that could do shield drops from shieldstun it totally ruined my pressure-from-below game

Question: When can Marth "platform cancel," where he does a platform drop and immediately does a fair, moving one of his bounding boxes in such a way to land on the platform? Shield-dropping + platform-cancels = crazy punishes. Does Marth need to hit with fair in the first active frame? Does hitting with the tip change the hitlag in a way that changes things? Can Marth chain PC-fairs in a combo?