Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Kadano]

10 frames still seems to take up a huge chunk of his invibility.

Which 10 frames are you referring to?

I wonder if doing ledgehop no-impact lands grants you even more frame advantages. Wishful thinking would be enough invincibility to cover your dsmash or even dtilt start-up. (fast fall longer before jumping onto the stage to make Marth instantly transition from an aerial state to a grounded state without the landing animation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMxgGtMLEfw#t=25s). Can you look into this?

I did that some time ago, apparently I forgot to include it in the list. No-impact-landing grants Marth 1 free intangibility frame at best. 1/4th of ledgedash, but arguably easier to perform. To me, the hardest part is hitting down/away just at the right time to not waste frames hanging on the ledge.

What do the x and y coordinates of the hitstun chart mean?

I don’t know what “hitstun chart” you mean. In case you refer to the knockback scaling diagram at the bottom of the op, x is % before hit and y is knockback power, but that’s written on the axis ends anyway so I guess you’re talking about something else?

And, how is 8 frames of hitstun different from 12 frames of histun+hitlag? Can Marth not do anything until frame 13?

Well, 4 frames of hitlag and 8 frames of hitstun mean Marth can perform any action on frame 13, yes. During hitlag he can only SDI and at the end input the main DI direction. During hitstun, as far as I know only negligible DI (compared to main DI) is possible, but I haven’t done elaborate testing yet so don’t quote me on that.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I meant the 10 frames that a wavedash/waveland takes before you can do anything.
Aww, 2 frames only? I thought no-impact-landing would give you more because of the lack of either a 4-frame landing animation or a 10-frame wavedash animation.

Err yes, I meant knockback chart. I was trying to make sense of what 1 cm squared over knockback/30 and 96/44 over 26# meant. Dang, dsmash starts having knockback than fsmash at 35%? I always thought it was character dependent as fsmash was more of a horizontal killer and dsmash was more of a vertical killer.

And wow, I feel dumb. I knew what hitstun and hitlag are and forgot them in this context because I always thought Falco's lasers had 0 knockback, so there'd be no hitstun. 13 frames?? Wow, so a frame perfect Falco could do laser -> fsmash(10 frames) or laser->dsmash(5 frames) as a consecutive hit?

 

[-Ran]

This happens when you get shined while airborne. If you get shined just above the ground, as soon as you land you have no lag. For example, if a Fox nair-shines on your shield and you try to SH fair OoS after the nair, you will be airborne and get shined before your fair comes out. You will land immediately, and all of your stun is cancelled allowing you to grab before you slide back too far to reach Fox.

Thank you Bones. Now I know what button to mash. Before, I was just mashing JC Grab, now I know the jump is more important. Haha.

 

[Kadano]

Err yes, I meant knockback chart. I was trying to make sense of what 1 cm squared over knockback/30 and 96/44 over 26# meant.

Knockback/30 means 1 cm amounts to 30 kb units. What you read as “96” is supposed to be a “%”, haha.

Dang, dsmash starts having knockback than fsmash at 35%? I always thought it was character dependent as fsmash was more of a horizontal killer and dsmash was more of a vertical killer.

That’s still true, this chart only considers launch speed and not angle. For characters like Fox, fsmash is still a better choice in general.

13 frames?? Wow, so a frame perfect Falco could do laser -> fsmash(10 frames) or laser->dsmash(5 frames) as a consecutive hit?

Yeah, he can do laser → dsmash. Unless Marth SDIs in the right direction. Fsmash Marth can shield / airdodge just barely.

By the way, I just updated the op with fthrow follow-up options at 90%. Here is what’s new:

“50%-90%
This is the range you can kill Jigglypuff from a throw, exact value depending on the stage. 90% is where you can expect her to die from tippered smashes even on DL64 with good DI, so it’s good to know your options at that point. Keep this in mind: If you land a grab on her at 50%-90%, your chances of killing her are at least 50%—if you have enough knowledge and application skills. I hope this makes you realize the importance of this section—without these techniques, you will likely take twice as long to take her stock.
At 90%, these are the DI-dependent follow-up options:

This .png is 4 MB, just to warn you before you click on it.
The innermost octagon (purple) shows on what angles of Puff’s DI you can follow up with a dash to pivot tipper fsmash (for more information on this, check out ARC’s pivoting tutorial). You need to dash for 15 frames.
The next one (deep blue) shows wavedash tipper fsmash. You need to start the wavedash as soon as possible and airdodge with 317°. The only exception are angles from 287°-343°, on these you need to dash 1 or two frames before you jump because Puff flies away further from you than on all other angles.
Then comes the strongest option: Dash wavedash tipper dsmash. Now the execution on that is tricky as you need to be really precise. First, you need to dash for a few frames. If you dash for 1-3 frames and jump afterwards, you need to airdodge (and thus wavedash) with 330° (SSE). If you dash for 4 to about 7 frames, you need to airdodge with 315° (SE).
Keep in mind this will not always work: If Jigglypuff DIs so she lands on a platform, you can’t get to her in time. In this case, you can techchase her with pivot fsmash instead. Also, if you throw her away from the stage near the ledge, you obviously won’t be able to dash or wavedash far enough to reach her.”

 

[-Ran]

Keep up the work. I'm learning so much stuff. ;D

 

[Bones0]

And wow, I feel dumb. I knew what hitstun and hitlag are and forgot them in this context because I always thought Falco's lasers had 0 knockback, so there'd be no hitstun. 13 frames?? Wow, so a frame perfect Falco could do laser -> fsmash(10 frames) or laser->dsmash(5 frames) as a consecutive hit?

Falco has 4 frames of landing lag that you need to consider, so I don't think laser to fsmash actually combos if they buffer shield. You can check in Training Mode though.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Hungrybox is going dowwn.
Sorry, but how are you getting your angle degrees? Which direction is 0 degrees? Does it count up going in a CCW direction?

 

[Kadano]

Hungrybox is going dowwn.

That is my dream =)
No offense to hbox, but I really look forward to the day a Marth takes a match off him again. Mew2king’s last match against him at Zenith was really depressing. Even though he got that nice dthrow tipper fsmash (I will expand on dthrow options and fthrow-dthrow alternation soon)(after that, M2K only landed one of very many grab attempts), I felt Marth just lacks those non-committing tools Puff has (read: bair). PewPewU’s set at NCR on the other hand looked very promising, in my opinion he could have won all of these matches if he had converted more of his many successful grabs.

Sorry, but how are you getting your angle degrees?

Source is ajp_anton. I can’t claim 100% accuracy on the angles that aren’t mod-90 because Melee’s accuracy is much higher than that of the control stick, so some angles are surely off by ~10°. On all intersections (between dsmash and pivot fsmash, for example) I double checked several times to make sure that there is no angle in between on which she can escape both, though.

Which direction is 0 degrees? Does it count up going in a CCW direction?

Well, 0° is always straight right, don’t you remember your math lessons?

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I was just confused because looking at the graph for the fthrow against jiggs, the spot uncovered by the purple appeared to be 90-190 degrees, not 107°¹ to 180°. 0.o

And I haven't touched math since statistics freshman year of college. Sooo many cobwebs to dust off while studying for the MCAT. ><

 

[Kadano]

I was just confused because looking at the graph for the fthrow against jiggs, the spot uncovered by the purple appeared to be 90-190 degrees, not 107°¹ to 180°. 0.o

There are no angles between 90° and 107° or 180° and 197°. Read the linked post by ajp_anton if you want to know more.

 

[BTmoney]

guide

Can you please do some sort of in-depth on this @ 1:35 (AustinRC's pivoting tutorial) on where the window is to input the fsmash? You have a way with presenting and depicting things well.
I don't understand how this gives you a bigger window than doing a traditional pivot with a 1 frame window. That being said I can do this sometimes but I want to be more consistent.
http://youtu.be/WuCCmymFpMU?t=1m35s

That would obviously add to this guide as well, with his permission.

 

[Bones0]

Can you please do some sort of in-depth on this @ 1:35 (AustinRC's pivoting tutorial) on where the window is to input the fsmash? You have a way with presenting and depicting things well.
I don't understand how this gives you a bigger window than doing a traditional pivot with a 1 frame window. That being said I can do this sometimes but I want to be more consistent.
http://youtu.be/WuCCmymFpMU?t=1m35s

That would obviously add to this guide as well, with his permission.

Pivot fsmash has a 3-frame window. They just designed it like that so you could fsmash with the control stick. If you couldn't interrupt the first 3 frames of a dash with an fsmash, then you'd have to be frame perfect to fsmash without the C-stick. It's along the same lines as why you can JC usmash but not other smash attacks.

 

[Bones0]

Does your CDQ differ if you grab the ledge with a backwards DJ instead of a forward DJ? More info on how to manipulate the CDQ in general would be really awesome.

Do grab hitboxes drag like normal hitboxes? I'm wondering if running JCed grabs have slightly less priority, and if dash grabs are affected by drag in the same way.

 

[Krynxe]

Stickied

This is very excellent. I'd love to see stuff like this for more characters

 

[Kadano]

Can you please do some sort of in-depth on this @ 1:35 (AustinRC's pivoting tutorial) on where the window is to input the fsmash? You have a way with presenting and depicting things well.

Thanks! I’m really glad you think so, I often have the feeling I’m not expressing myself well as I’m not a native speaker.
Pivot fsmash needs to be frame perfect unless you do a pivot stand (I think ARC referred to this as “flick pivot” or something like this). So:
Dash forward part
Hold the direction you want to dash in for up to 15 frames. You can also dash for less than 15 frames of course, but if you keep holding the direction afterwards, you will enter »run« animation during which you can’t pivot. If you keep the stick in neutral position after frame 15, »dash« animation will continue for another 12 frames during which his Δx gradually decreases. You can pivot during all of these frames.

Turn around/pivot part
The earliest frame you can input a turn is 4. On the frame after you have pressed back, you need to press your pivot input. This is a one frame window.

Pivot fsmash has a 3-frame window.

The 3 frame tolerance fsmash window is only active during the first dash, not after consecutive dash dances.

Does your CDQ differ if you grab the ledge with a backwards DJ instead of a forward DJ? More info on how to manipulate the CDQ in general would be really awesome.

No, that doesn’t make a difference. SCDQ seems to be refreshed at certain points but I haven’t been able to induce a general rule. It seems all somewhat random to me. I don’t want to go into detail on Marth because what I’ve found so far has no uses whatsoever.

Do grab hitboxes drag like normal hitboxes?

No, they don’t. (If drag is the effect that hitboxes draw a line from the new frame hitbox to the old box and the resulting “tube” is the actual hitbox)

 

[clowsui]

I want some in-depth research done on Peach wrt Pivots. Let's hone in on the percentage range 90-110. If it's too big, 100-110. If possible, also test on DL64 and see how wind interacts with pivoting.

If you can do this, Marth might win EVO again.

 

[Kadano]

I want some in-depth research done on Peach wrt Pivots. Let's hone in on the percentage range 90-110. If it's too big, 100-110. If possible, also test on DL64 and see how wind interacts with pivoting.

If you can do this, Marth might win EVO again.

Alright, I will do this in the next hours together with Puff dthrow and 60% range. Although I’m pretty sure Peach’s weight only leaves way for guaranteed follow-ups if she DIs in.

 

[strawhats]

That is my dream =)
No offense to hbox, but I really look forward to the day a Marth takes a match off him again. Mew2king’s last match against him at Zenith was really depressing. Even though he got that nice dthrow tipper fsmash (I will expand on dthrow options and fthrow-dthrow alternation soon)(after that, M2K only landed one of very many grab attempts), I felt Marth just lacks those non-committing tools Puff has (read: bair). PewPewU’s set at NCR on the other hand looked very promising, in my opinion he could have won all of these matches if he had converted more of his many successful grabs.






m2k could do it if he stopped being emo, studied the MU a little more and played a bit more cautious in the neutral game. Unlike PP/PPU jason tends to play risk/reward a bit too much. His understanding of floaty matchups with marth aren't as solid as they once were back when he actually mained marth. PPU and PP can definitely beat hbox with marth though.

 

[AustinRC]

I want some in-depth research done on Peach wrt Pivots. Let's hone in on the percentage range 90-110. If it's too big, 100-110. If possible, also test on DL64 and see how wind interacts with pivoting.

If you can do this, Marth might win EVO again.

Okay so against a player like Armada you aren't going to get throw into pivot fsmash very easily. He DI's straight down or down and away nearly every time. Not to say he wont be caught off guard every once in awhile but where pivots are going to be most brutal against him is just after the first hit of neutral. If you recall in the video after scoring a tipper fair at early percent or a sour spot fair at later percent it can connect into a pivot fsmash. THAT is what's going to help Marth players beat someone whom is on Armada's level.

 

[Kadano]

Alright, I will do this in the next hours together with Puff dthrow and 60% range. Although I’m pretty sure Peach’s weight only leaves way for guaranteed follow-ups if she DIs in.

Won’t be able to finish this today. What I can tell you so far: At high %, fthrow is the only throw where you have killing follow-ups for at least some DI angles. 315° (and many more angles, probably) DI lets Peach escape all Marth can do, though.

 

[Bones0]

Even if there are no true throw to fsmash combos on Peach, I don't think that should mean never do it. I rarely see Peaches get out of awful fthrow wavesmash stuff, so I doubt most will be ready to airdodge out of fthrow pivot fsmash on reaction, which means it becomes a mixup where they either airdodge and you react with a fair or uair, they don't airdodge and get tippered (or mediocre followup if you guessed they would airdodge), or they airdodge your pivot fsmash and probably can't punish you before you are able to shield or move to reset. Idk how common it is for Peach to be able to tech from fthrows though. Tech in place seems like the only way she's going to punish you out of the fsmash option, and you can probably react to her height to avoid that anyway. How close is bthrow to comboing into anything?

 

[Kadano]

Been discovering some new anti-Puff stuff
This for example (90% before fthrow, 135° DI)

I’ll try to get a complete option overview up by tomorrow. Hopefully PP and PPU can make use of it against Hbox.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

That's pretty sweeeet, is it at an unrecoverable percent?

 

[Kadano]

At 90%, Puff can jump out before it passes the blast zone, but at 135° DI, this works until at least 150%, haha. No idea how the DI ranges scale with % yet, though.

 

[Kadano]

Shameless doublepost, but with content:

Colored areas indicate that after DIing in that direction, Puff will not be able to escape the corresponding follow-up.
Obviously 7 and 8 only kill near the ledge. At 90%, Puff can survive dair depending on stage and DI, but she won’t make it back to the ledge without lots of Rising Pounds, so it should be feasible to dair her again.
At higher %, most/all areas shrink, but not too fast.

If what this image is supposed to illustrate is not clear: While Marth has no truly guaranteed follow-up on Puff from his grab, he has numerous ways to have at least 50% killing chance, for example by mixing up Fthrow WD Fsmash and Fthrow JC Upsmash.

 

[Bones0]

You are officially Magus Jr.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

He's Kadano, the one who shows how the stuff can actually be applied.

 

[BTmoney]

If marth can get 50/50s off of grabs and or tipper fsmash set ups vs. the viable characters this character is going to be ridiculous. Do you see him gaining any decent set ups versus Fast fallers?

 

[AustinRC]

He's already ridiculous. He's an amazing character people just don't know how to utilize him to his fullest potential yet.

 

[Kadano]

I created a video with all Puff punishes. Something went wrong though so this is only viewable frame-by-frame (with Potplayer for example). It was only supposed to be viewed that way anyway so I didn’t spend hours to find out what went wrong. If anyone knows why the video is so skippy when played at full speed (60 fps / 1080p), please do tell me! I used MeGUI with this script: ImageSource("D:\Bilder\Melee\TAS\Fraps\r1\%002d.bmp", 100, 548, 60)
ConvertToYV12()

So, here’s the video (don’t ask me why mediafire changed the extension from mp4 to 3gp): http://www.mediafire.com/download/y63792d2a1sbae2/ImageSource_Fraps_0.mp4

Edit: Here’s the same video with 30 instead of 60 fps (half speed): http://www.mediafire.com/?dku8arsh63lx9b0

 

[AustinRC]

You forgot back throw uair. :3

 

[Kadano]

Well, that starts to kill Puff at 110% on FD whereas the other options always kill at 90% even on DL¹, so I don’t think it qualifies to be among the others. Bthrow-uair also only works on DI ranges from about 343° to 45°, which you cover with Fthrow wd fsmash anyway.

Now on YouTube too, btw: http://youtu.be/c9vjux7JPmM

¹Except for dair.

 

[AustinRC]

While that is true Kadano you can't always have a lot of room on the stage to get puff with all of those punish's they require a bit of stage space where bthrow uair does not.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

He's already ridiculous. He's an amazing character people just don't know how to utilize him to his fullest potential yet.

I always thought marth just didn't have as free of a punish game as other characters. Many characters have basic automatic combos while Marth has very few automatic combos. By automatic combos, I am referring to combos which can be escaped only through DI and tech option. I think everyone should be able to properly react to DI and tech options.

Sheik with Dthrow is pretty much follow DI and choose appropriate move to combo with (fairly automatic). Marth on the other hand is Uthrow and not only has to follow DI, but has to put up with 2nd jump, stall tactics, air dodge, and different aerial timings (fox fastfalling versus not fast falling). Uthrow -> Uair is a combo, but just fraught with lots of locations to mess up on to make sure you do not swing too early or too late. The complication is that most match-ups and most moves Marth hits with are of the sort where it combos, but its not automatic. I think many players will notice that Fox/Falco are far easier to deal with because once you get that one hit (grab) the Fox/Falco stock is pretty much over with. Now, lets take that same tactic to trying to play peach and jiggs. They are NOT dying to automatic combos. They are dying to constantly getting swatted away with each engagement with each engagement an opportunity for Marth to mess up.

I do not think there is any new potential for Marth. The game has been out for long enough I think we all have a general idea of what we should be doing, but do not have the tech skill to back it up. Marth has the proper tools to deal with Falco lasers, but it still trips people up plenty. Laser shouldn't be as crippling as they are unless you get hit by one directly in front of Falco where he can directly link into a move before you can do somethin. Instead, it seems people get combo'd off the sudden stopping and confusion of what to do next after getting hit.

I just do not think there has any been any Marth player recently who can pull off the near constant pinpoint spacing and timing required to be dominating with Marth.

 

[Bones0]

I do not think there is any new potential for Marth. The game has been out for long enough I think we all have a general idea of what we should be doing, but do not have the tech skill to back it up.

That might be the most ignorant thing I've ever read on SmashBoards.

 

[Kadano]

I do not think there is any new potential for Marth. The game has been out for long enough I think we all have a general idea of what we should be doing, but do not have the tech skill to back it up. Marth has the proper tools to deal with Falco lasers, but it still trips people up plenty. Laser shouldn't be as crippling as they are unless you get hit by one directly in front of Falco where he can directly link into a move before you can do somethin. Instead, it seems people get combo'd off the sudden stopping and confusion of what to do next after getting hit.

Although Marth did really bad at Evo, I don’t think you can say that after PP at Apex and PPU’s win against Axe (before, at KoC with Ken commentary, I really couldn’t see what PPU could have done better), both very surprising playstyles that I had not thought of previously. I don’t see why something similar couldn’t happen again.

What I took from leffen’s win against PPU is:
1. Spacies can win on FD, contrary to what some people still argue; it’s not a 7-3 matchup for Marth on that stage.
2. To win as Marth, you need to respect Fox a lot and commit as little as possible. PPU got grabbed at the end because he didn’t respect leffen’s consistency with invincible ledgedashes, plus he committed at that time unnecessarily.

I just do not think there has any been any Marth player recently who can pull off the near constant pinpoint spacing and timing required to be dominating with Marth.

That I agree with. Both PPU and M2K didn’t show us new amazing spacing at Evo.
Marth’s zoning with aerials is a thing of the past. It doesn’t work anymore. DD-WD-camping at the right spacing still has plenty of potential though if you ask me.

Still, this is not Tier List Challenge: IMO Marth is not as good as people think, so please don’t talk too much about these macroscopical things here.

 

[Bones0]

Marth’s zoning with aerials is a thing of the past. It doesn’t work anymore. DD-WD-camping at the right spacing still has plenty of potential though if you ask me.

I disagree that zoning with aerials can no longer work; people just need to figure out how to do it more intelligently. I have yet to see a Marth utilizing shield stopping for jump back double fairs or fair uairs, and just looking at the brief instances Hax uses it for his Falcon, I can't imagine it wouldn't help Marth at all.

 

[BTmoney]

except for that zoning with uair is a horrible idea it's not a move you can preemptively place. if you want to do that at all it'd be better to do retreating fairs or nairs since they have comparable auto cancel windows (and I know you can waveland/DJ after a fair, I'm not sure about nair). I also think that shield dropping makes Marth a lot better. You can camp platforms and instead of being forced backwards to the ledge or having to use your bad jumps to get off the platform you can drop through it and you put yourself in a great situation 10/10 times when you are below your opponent.

I do not think there is any new potential for Marth. The game has been out for long enough I think we all have a general idea of what we should be doing, but do not have the tech skill to back it up. Marth has the proper tools to deal with Falco lasers, but it still trips people up plenty. Laser shouldn't be as crippling as they are unless you get hit by one directly in front of Falco where he can directly link into a move before you can do somethin. Instead, it seems people get combo'd off the sudden stopping and confusion of what to do next after getting hit.

I just do not think there has any been any Marth player recently who can pull off the near constant pinpoint spacing and timing required to be dominating with Marth.

One, he does not have the tools to deal with Falco's lasers. Peach does with her float, Jiggs does with her air-based game and the fact that she loses nothing being forced off the ground and her super low crouch, Fox does to some degree with his strong platform movement, ground speed, smallish hurtboxes, and vertical acceleration/jump heights, Sheik to some degree since her dash attack is actually a staple and it is good that it is an option out of not only a foxtrot but a run, and she has a super low crouch and a great shield. Marth is the best at dealing with lasers among the characters who can't deal with good lasering.

Two I don't know what kind of observation that is. I don't think people get confused when they get hit by a laser.

Three, there is no character who doesn't require proper spacing and timing.

It's like you aren't paying attention to this thread, the pivot tutorial, shield dropping, PP's new style marth, and the general marth discussion. "Lame-Marth" hasn't even been fully developed (dash dancing, d-tilting, and uthrowing marth)

 

[Bones0]

except for that zoning with uair is a horrible idea it's not a move you can preemptively place. if you want to do that at all it'd be better to do retreating fairs or nairs since they have comparable auto cancel windows (and I know you can waveland/DJ after a fair, I'm not sure about nair). I also think that shield dropping makes Marth a lot better. You can camp platforms and instead of being forced backwards to the ledge or having to use your bad jumps to get off the platform you can drop through it and you put yourself in a great situation 10/10 times when you are below your opponent.

I said "fair uair", as in you retreating fair, and late uair as you land to cover any approaches timed after your fair disappears. I think late uairing is a lot better the people give it credit for. It comes out in front (where it matters most) before fair does, it's seems way easier to tip than fair meaning people won't just be able to ASDI it down and punish, and when it hits cleanly, it's basically DI proof unlike fair which gets defeated pretty easily by good DI away.

One, he does not have the tools to deal with Falco's lasers. Peach does with her float, Jiggs does with her air-based game and the fact that she loses nothing being forced off the ground and her super low crouch, Fox does to some degree with his strong platform movement, ground speed, smallish hurtboxes, and vertical acceleration/jump heights, Sheik to some degree since her dash attack is actually a staple and it is good that it is an option out of not only a foxtrot but a run, and she has a super low crouch and a great shield. Marth is the best at dealing with lasers among the characters who can't deal with good lasering.

Two I don't know what kind of observation that is. I don't think people get confused when they get hit by a laser.

How does Marth NOT have the tools to deal with lasering? First of all, he has a great PS. And by great, I mean pretty damn easy. No, I'm not suggesting that Marths learn to PS at 100% consistency or anything, but simply using it sparingly makes a huge difference in how Falco must laser. Aside from PSing, he simply has amazing OoS attacks for dealing with an approaching Falco. A simple fadeaway nair OoS will catch basically any approach Falco might have planned after lasering except another laser, and even then Falco can't approach because Marth can fair/uair instantly after laser stun in the air, and EVEN THEN he can't directly capitalize from the laser's small stun. Marth shouldn't be caught in proper laser spacing all that often in the first place. He is plenty fast enough to stay in Falco's space and can dtilt, ftilt, fair, dash attack, or fsmash any attempt to laser as long as he is prepared. On the defensive end, he can pretty much always out-speed Falco to simply retreat so that laser approaches aren't close enough for Falco to guarantee a hit after landing.

The only major area that Marth is lacking in to counter lasers is his platform game which I still maintain is not bad because of how much shield dropping opens up for him, and even simple WLing tactics are severely underused. Obviously getting above Falco is dangerous, but as long as Marth does it from far enough away or WLs to adjust his spacing, I don't see why it can't be treated as an extra fast version of Peach's float with less variability in the height. If they are lasering right on top of you, jump and WL towards or away from them to cross them up or retreat to the ledge/center. If they are lasering from afar, WL straight down and drop right back through with a fair/uair. That is something Taj did very well at Genesis 2, and for some reason didn't catch on with Marths. Probably because Marth mains are too busy being defeatist about their character being so bad that they don't want to try any new tactics. Sadly enough, M2K himself seems to be leading and promoting this belief of the character while he continues to perform great with Marth on FD and PS where his old strategies still earn him a good amount of success there. I don't mean to rag on M2K because I spent a lot of time with him leading up to Evo and he's an awesome player and guy, but he is quite stubborn when it comes to trying new tactics. He is great at reversing momentum Marth's huge LH uair, but when I suggested he try reverse ledgedashing to strengthen that option even more by baiting people into attacking, he tried it a few times, messed up once, and considered it too risky. Heck, for all I know he's right that it's a bad tactic, but I have a hard time believing he is right for the reason he gave. It's almost humorous to me that a player who spent more time on the ledge than the rest of the top 8 competitors at Evo combined considers something as simple as reverse ledgedashing as too dangerous.

 

[BTmoney]

I said "fair uair", as in you retreating fair, and late uair as you land to cover any approaches timed after your fair disappears. I think late uairing is a lot better the people give it credit for. It comes out in front (where it matters most) before fair does, it's seems way easier to tip than fair meaning people won't just be able to ASDI it down and punish, and when it hits cleanly, it's basically DI proof unlike fair which gets defeated pretty easily by good DI away.



How does Marth NOT have the tools to deal with lasering?

The only major area that Marth is lacking in to counter lasers is his platform game which I still maintain is not bad because of how much shield dropping opens up for him, and even simple WLing tactics are severely underused.

Well I still don't think fair->uair is a good idea. That's really just about as bad as landing with a bad L-cancled fair for no reason since Marth doesn't have enough range to cover his landling lag (which is why aerial zoning isn't that great, it works with puff because while she has less range she has way more safety, options, and mobility after throwing something out). But I imagine AC and waveland shenanigans make that better.

Well we're just mincing words at this point lol.
Comparatively he's not as good as Peach/Puff/Sheik/Fox but is obviously better than Falcon and etc..

I believe, and some people would tell you, Marth becomes a worse character when he is forced to jump. Since you can't really PS low lasers (iirc 1 frame window on the lowest laser lol. I'm sure the 2nd-3rd lowest lasers are also very hard to PS. His crouch->PS and dash away->PS work well versus mid/high lasers but are far from reliable versus good low lasering.) Since 2013-Falco knows that he's going to shoot low lasers. This makes jumping over them and platforming attractive options but jumping and platforming aren't very good with marth. And like we both agreed on shield dropping helps a ton. Too bad most people can't do it lol.

I can Shai drop/dash shield drop just fine but only shield drop with like 18% success rate on demand lol