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It's very doable, with practice. You don't get as much damage off it as sheik and your jab reset isn't as good, but its still guaranteed. I think a huge bonus to marth's fthrow game that people don't talk about is that that his upthrow and fthrow are unreactable, so if you're tech chasing consistently you can often learn their DI habits...which makes upthrow more profitable. For example, you're gonna combo falcon way better off DI forward on your upthrow than behind you, so you can fthrow tech chase (Which is hardest if they DI away, since they'll land further). If they don't DI away, the tech chase should be pretty easy; if they do, you can start going for big combos off the upthrow if you're not confident on the tech chasing 100%.
Interesting, thanks for the response. I have a measurably-sub-par reaction speed, so most of my tech chasing comes primarily from reads (I can't tech chase with Sheik to save my life, haha). That DI trap is a neat idea though. I use fthrow so little it's almost criminal, so I've been trying to work it into my game more.
Pay a lot of attention to each character's animations. The sooner you can identify movement as a getup in place, GUA, techroll, or other option, the slower your reactions can be while still getting the punish. It's virtually impossible to react to the first frame of most tech options, but being familiar with each one's animation can make or break a tech chase. Also, make sure you aren't playing on a laggy TV because that will prevent even the most gdlk players from techchasing on reaction.
If they were really high up i think you could but i don't think it's practical. 2 dtilts is 29 frames if you get the iasa so at the heights that people would usually side b at i don't think it would be useful. I'm also pretty positive looking at the dtilt hitbox and from experience that you can be hit out of it as it does not cover marths head completely. I would also assume that from when i discussed jump sweetspots for spacies earlier in the thread that the same relative principle would apply to side b sweetspots just at a different height. You have to hard read if they are doing the shorten sweetspot or preform perfect pivot down tilts so that you can cover every possible location fox can sweetspot. Delaying the dtilt/jab will not cover a shorten because they will snap to the ledge. If you recognize that they are going to have to use a full length side b you can position yourself so that the dtilt will cover the sweetspot.
Only with multiple shield SDI. If your ftilt is spaced perfectly, he can’t even short hop fair you before you are out of lag. So it’s perfectly safe, unless Marth does a powershield dtilt / ftilt / fsmash.
Aye, finishing the upthrow followup list is the next thing on my list (after replying to all of you). I’ll structure it as a table so that you can quickly find the best followup for every percent range / DI combination.
That’s asking pretty much. Doing the necessary testing would take 4 hours at the very least. I’d have to establish the percent and DI ranges at which Falcon can mash out of tumble so he escapes the tech chase first, then calculate hitstun for all the throws and percent ranges, then finding out the best way to close in for all the throw-percent-DI-combinations … then go into tech option frames, control Magus’ values for the first visual cue of each, determine the best reaction followup possible with “perfect” reaction times for every tech option. Then I could give you the reaction leniency for every throw-tech-option combination.
Definitely not in the way that you do the same uair / utilt timing for all of his DI options and expect it to hit on all of them. If you allow reacting to his DI as well, I suspect that there are large ranges starting at approximately 45%.
I recommend practicing with somebody who also wants to improve his reaction times. Just take turns in the relevant micro-games and try to react to his different throws / whatever as quickly as possible. Try to find out the visual cues by which you can tell what he did the earliest.While on the subject, does anyone have any advice for training reaction speed? I'm starting to get better at reacting to things like mixed techs if I'm consciously looking for them, so I know it's possible to speed myself up, but typical "reaction speed" games don't seem to do the trick for Melee
It works at least until 100% against tipper jabs. If they DI the jab properly, it probably works forever, haha.
What do you mean by “hit you crouching”? You can crouch-cancel Fox’s aerial side-B until ~95% and have enough time to run up to him and grab him.
No, it won’t. It’s great against up-B, but against side-B, not so much.
“Sweetspot” is very relative. If you understand it as the lowest side-B they can do to grab the ledge, well then it’s only a 1-frame-window, of course. In that situation, Marth is in lag anyway, so it doesn’t really matter whether they sweetspot or not.
It depends. If they side-B from rather far away, you can do two dtilts and grab them afterwards while they are still in lag. If they start their side-B rather close to you, this is not possible. It’s a good idea, this might be part of the perfect edgeguarding routine.
It’s a lot more complicated than that, haha. It’s a combination of timing, spacing and Fox/Falco lifting their heads up when they side-B against the wall.
No to the first question, yes to the second. The right spacing here is not just vertical, but also horizontal, so you can simply edgehog them if they attempt this.[/quote]
I love this.18%-26%
Here, you will only miss one or two frames to bring out side-B in time. If he opts for no DI, it will hit him regardless of whether he tries to jump out or not. If he DI’s left or right, it will whiff.
If you happen to land the first hit, you can follow up into a death combo, but he can DI out at almost every hit. I still made an animation so that you know what you can do to Falcons who don’t DI:
[Note while writing this post: This is the first gif animation that takes a really long time to encode. Maybe I should switch to a different file format, I don’t think .gif was intended for 480p60 video segments. Unfortunately, gfycat did a really bad job at downconverting h264 to .gif so far, so until smashboards’ admins decide to implement direct h264 hosting (that is, if they ever do; their reaction in the suggestion thread didn’t seem like it …), I don’t see a better choice.
This .gif is 25MB btw]
If he DI’s in the direction you are facing, you can tipper utilt him into a regrab. On DI behind you, this is not possible.
I wouldn't get into the mentality of assuming one cannot react too it. Simply because I believe this is wrong for really any player that has played long enough and been uthrown/fthrown enough times. As soon as someone is in lag off a whiff someone can start DI'ing because what else are they going to do once they realize their in lag and will probably get punished. Plus, a person could randomly be DI'ing due to attempting various inputs at the time which means even if someone cannot react too it it does not mean you will always get the same result. Or even the same result most of the time. Best to stick with methods in which you can always cover all options if you can or an option which will cover most options and leave you in a favorable position on those options you cannot cover.
Keep playing trying to cover tech options without resorting to reading. I think the only method for increasing reaction is to keep doing the same situation over and over and not some alternative method like reaction games. Avoid trying to make reads as it will destroy that practice of reacting. So, just keep playing with the mentality to react to techs despite your success or failure. There is a hierarchy for covering techs you can easily look for.Interesting, thanks for the response. I have a measurably-sub-par reaction speed, so most of my tech chasing comes primarily from reads (I can't tech chase with Sheik to save my life, haha). That DI trap is a neat idea though. I use fthrow so little it's almost criminal, so I've been trying to work it into my game more.
Edit: While on the subject, does anyone have any advice for training reaction speed? I'm starting to get better at reacting to things like mixed techs if I'm consciously looking for them, so I know it's possible to speed myself up, but typical "reaction speed" games don't seem to do the trick for Melee
If you do not punish someone for a missed tech, DD perhaps until they get up? I feel like Marth's attacks methods to hit someone from a missed tech are terrible. So many times I would Dtilt fox/falco at say like 60% only to get attacked randomly in lag right after. Unless you get the jab reset every other move might just be too laggy or stun time to actually do anything.
B slashes into a long combo. Good DI (away or behind) escapes everything beyond the first slash, though.
All follow-ups I mentioned are inescapable. Captain Falcon can never jump out if the follow-up is executed perfectly. Most are true combos, some (for example, side-B on 38-39 hitstun) are frame traps and have Captain Falcon out of hitstun for one or two frames, but regardless of what he does during these frames, the attack will hit anyway.
In general, the first row a follow-up appears in will require frame perfection. The second row will have 1 frame leniency, the third two, etc.
For uthrow, no way. If they DI your fthrow in, you can fair them. For Ganon, fsmash connects as well.
No, they can’t. Let me quote myself: “Also, because your hurtboxes are so low during dtilt, Fox’ illusion will never hit you.”
Zero. Choosing the perfect vertical spacing that escapes Marth’s dtilt is a 1-frame-window. Further reading:
No way, sorry.
I analyzed this situation thoroughly in this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-5#post-15941634
Hitstun depends on percentage. Against CF, back short hop instant tipper uair starts to work against neutral DI at 46% (maybe even 43-45). You can follow up both with grab and with another sh uair.
Yes.
For DI in / out, you need to dash in the direction he DI’d in. For no DI, both dash directions work just fine.
Yes, you’re right, I made a mistake. It should be correct by now. Thank you.
Yes, it’s very similar. TFS doesn’t actually require a turn, you can C-stick in that direction as well. I’ll clear that up.
Yeah, it should have been there instead. Please go over it again, it should be correct now.
I’ve looked for that back then, but I haven’t found a percent-DI combination where Dolphin Slash sweetspot is guaranteed. At ~30% and DI in, CF has a 1-frame window to jump out of your perfectly executed turn → dash → up-B. I don’t think you should ever attempt this; the risk of CF jumping out and punishing you is just too high.
Yes.
No, you input the action (fsmash) 1 frame after the turn.
Use gif-explode and the gif in the hitbox thread.
Kadano
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