I've noticed that Loid can be used as a counter

[AnchorTea]

Some of you may know that when someone hits the loid, the explosion can cause decent damage and knockback. (And can kill around 120%)

I have sometimes on accident pulled out the loid and my opponent accidently hit it and then boom. He got launched across the screen.

So I have thought up that this loid can be used as a counter. I haven't really tried this purposely, but it is definitely worth a try.

 

[Antonykun]

Some of you may know that when someone hits the loid, the explosion can cause decent damage and knockback. (And can kill around 120%)

I have sometimes on accident pulled out the loid and my opponent accidently hit it and then boom. He got launched across the screen.

So I have thought up that this loid can be used as a counter. I haven't really tried this purposely, but it is definitely worth a try.

It's a little bit safer than an actual counter because of the Lloyd hitboxes.

 

[cwjakesteel]

I've done that before. The problem with the lloyd as a counter is its timing. For a few frames, the lloyd has no hitboxes, so if someone like Falcon runs up and grabs you, it will whiff. On the other hand, if you time it well enough, you will stop Falcon in his tracks which a regular counter won't.

I think the Lloyd as a counter works especially well in the air where they can't shield.

 

[Makai Wars]

It took me a while to understand, but from what I've gathered, when the Lloyd is coming out, if it gets damaged before it actually takes off, it doesn about 12% and some pretty decent knockback, but as cwjakesteel said, it's got a few inactive frames which gives the opponent time to shield or get out of the way or whatever.

 

[Volya]

Yup ! The timing is shorter than a real counter like Marth's one tho.
I don't know exactly how it work but the power of the missile's explosion seems bigger when it get destroyed by a spike attack, like Yoshi's or Mario's Fair.

 

[Makai Wars]

Yup ! The timing is shorter than a real counter like Marth's one tho.
I don't know exactly how it work but the power of the missile's explosion seems bigger when it get destroyed by a spike attack, like Yoshi's or Mario's Fair.

I definitely feel like this is something worth labbing with if that's the case-every time I pulled it off it was on accident, but image if we got hard reads and punished with the missle explosion?

What can't Villager do??

 

[Zensay]

Here's an example of what you guys are talking about from Player-1 during tournament play: http://youtu.be/AdjNA9aUXk4?t=5m12s

 

[Player-1]

So @ Indigo Jeans can correct me on this because I'm still a little bit fuzzy on the details, but Lloid is out on frame 1 (?), the hitbox isn't there until frame 53 (?), but an opponent can blow lloid up themselves by damaging it. I think Lloid has more health before he starts moving then when he starts moving he has less health (?). I think before he starts moving he has 12 HP so any move that does 12 damage or more will blow it up. Usually if you use special moves in hitstun you get a boost, but lloid breaks momentum and you stop instantly, also in this game I think every action you can do out of hitstun you can do at the same time (in brawl you could air dodge out of hitstun before you can do anything else, then aerial, then specials and midair jumps) so I was thinking maybe Lloid might be useful as a combo breaker since it comes out on frame 1, but the main problems would be that lloid wouldn't cover you every where (ex: If falcon is chaining uairs on you then you're probably still going to get hit by another uair since lloid doesn't cover you below), the hit has to do enough damage to blow lloid up and most moves that are used for comboing don't deal 12 damage, you can use it to break the combo finisher but you're still vulnerable when you pull lloid out so if the opponent is aiming to hit you then you're probably just going to trade.

This will probably be a nice thing to think about when you're in neutral (spacing your lloids out so it's harder to hit you and maybe hit lloid instead), but villager is also slow so it's not going to be AS useful as it would be with a faster character that can change their position faster. Also, this should not work against grabs really at all since for most of the duration of your throw animation you're invincible so all they have to do is time their throw so they're invincible when the lloid hits.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I was gonna post something along those lines but I didn't want to be a party pooper but oh well

Yeah, @ Player-1 is right. All Lloids have exactly 12% HP, so they won't explode in their "inactive state" unless that take that much damage, which is why I wouldn't advise actively trying to use Lloid as a counter. 12% doesn't seem like much but there aren't a lot of things that characters can use to approach/hit you with outside of a punish or read that will be doing that much damage.

Also Lloid still has 12% HP in its active state, but for some reason nearly everything explodes it in one hit at that point. I have an incomplete list floating around but off the top of my head the only damaging hitboxes that don't instantly explode it are Heavenly Light, Needles, Fox's Blaster, and Star Bits.

 

[Player-1]

so lloid has 12% in its active state but blows up after one hit from most things? Then is it just lloid detonating by hitting a hurtbox or anything that's not transcendent?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yep, like I said nearly any hitbox will detonate Lloid, and absolutely any (to my knowledge) hurtbox impact will also cause it to explode. Transcendent attacks will explode it too, but they just won't clank. Lloid still has 12% HP though; if you hit it with Fox's Blaster enough it can detonate prematurely due to having lost all of its HP.

Also I forgot to mention that despite Lloid being generated on F1 (if you input Lloid and ZSS inputs jab on the same frame, then even if you're hit [on F1 of your Lloid animation] Lloid will still be generated), I'm actually not sure on what frame it begins taking damage. The lack of frame advance and 12%, F1 attacks makes it tricky but I'm currently trying to think of a way that would for sure let me know if Lloid takes damage even on F1.

So yeah in short, standard Lloid can and probably will blow up even with full HP if it gets hit or hits something while in its active state. Though as we all know this doesn't apply to Pushy, and I don't remember what the deal is with Liftoff

 

[JohnnyB]

I was thinking about posting this as an AT. I was going to call it lloid countering.

Anyway i think this is really really useful to beat a *lot* of strong moves. I was fighting a Lucina the other day and she just couldn't land her kill moves against me. Fsmash got her lloid countered constantly , despite her disjointed attacks. Her landing shieldbreaker had the same problem for her, but i know for a fact that she can hit you through the lloid with it. For some strange reason, it seems like attacks that would destroy the lloid in flight safely do not work when it's hitbox isn't active yet.

 

[Darklink401]

I was thinking about posting this as an AT. I was going to call it lloid countering.

Anyway i think this is really really useful to beat a *lot* of strong moves. I was fighting a Lucina the other day and she just couldn't land her kill moves against me. Fsmash got her lloid countered constantly , despite her disjointed attacks. Her landing shieldbreaker had the same problem for her, but i know for a fact that she can hit you through the lloid with it. For some strange reason, it seems like attacks that would destroy the lloid in flight safely do not work when it's hitbox isn't active yet.

I like this idea.


Also a Fox ran up and usmashed me when we were both at high percents. I had taken out lloid. Lloid exploded, and he died before me. Will post video tomorrow.

its definitely useful, especiaslly for dashing back, then using lloid in the opposite direction, because if your opponent mispaces their attack, they will not have a good time with lloid.

 

[AnchorTea]

I like this idea.


Also a Fox ran up and usmashed me when we were both at high percents. I had taken out lloid. Lloid exploded, and he died before me. Will post video tomorrow.

its definitely useful, especiaslly for dashing back, then using lloid in the opposite direction, because if your opponent mispaces their attack, they will not have a good time with lloid.

We finally have a good counter strategy against fast characters.

 

[Darklink401]

We finally have a good counter strategy against fast characters.

That doesn't involve customs, haha.

Dtilt is good for stopping ground approaches as well tho.

 

[JohnnyB]

Dtilt is awesome for that but i prefer to keep it fresh for KOs.

Pivot tilts are pretty good for this purpose too. Ftilt has similar range and frame data to dtilt.

 

[Darklink401]

Dtilt is awesome for that but i prefer to keep it fresh for KOs.

Pivot tilts are pretty good for this purpose too. Ftilt has similar range and frame data to dtilt.

At what percent does dtilt kill again?

 

[AnchorTea]

At what percent does dtilt kill again?

Like Mega Man utilt kill percents (120%)

 

[Player-1]

megman's utilt kills at like...70

 

[AnchorTea]

megman's utilt kills at like...70

If your on Battlefields top platform

 

[Darklink401]

If your on Battlefields top platform

Megaman's utilt, when sweetpotted, kills MAD early

Almost twice as early as Villager's utilt.

 

[AnchorTea]

Megaman's utilt, when sweetpotted, kills MAD early

Almost twice as early as Villager's utilt.

So there is a frame-perfect sweetspot for Mega Man's utilt?

 

[Darklink401]

So there is a frame-perfect sweetspot for Mega Man's utilt?

Its not frame-perfect, but there IS a a sweetspot, that makes it red instead of blue.

 

[Player-1]

https://youtu.be/evKNePqZYbU?t=1m41s

 

[AnchorTea]

https://youtu.be/evKNePqZYbU?t=1m41s

What?! I've never killed with MM's utilt at 70%! I need to start workung more on Mega Man and my other mains....

 

[JohnnyB]

Ha this tactic is paying dividends.

I was playing a Sonic the other day that was having a hard time getting in on me. Every time s/he tried to get in i would just use jabs to beat the dashing options. So eventually, after getting smacked around a bit, this Sonic decides to dash > shield to space out fsmashs. It was working for a while too, this player was really good at getting the spacing just right to get it outside my jab range! So i started throwing lloids right when the shield went up and there wasn't much the Sonic could do. If they fsmash they get instantly hit, if they shield i grab. Just knowing how safe lloids are against this sort of thing really helped out. After that it was mostly aerial approaches that i could usually beat.