Isaac for DLC - One day. Some day. Golden Sunday.

N3ON · Jun 23, 2012

The Golden Earth-Shaking adept! Isaac of Golden Sun!
Posters and Banners in the 2nd Post!

Overview

Isaac, the Earth-shaking adept from Camelot’s acclaimed RPG series Golden Sun could possibly join the Smash in the next titles. Wielding both swords and axes, as well as commanding a wide array of Earth psynergy (magic), the potential of Isaac’s moveset is almost endless, as well as much different than anything seen before in Smash. From creating earthquakes, to creating Earth-spires, to causing eruptions, to shooting vines, to summoning huge swords to devastate the battlefield, Isaac has possibilities to create one of the most varied characters yet, and this is really just the tip of Isaac’s power.

First appearing in the 2001 GBA title Golden Sun as the main protagonist, and then reappearing in the 2003 and 2010 sequels, as well as appearing in Brawl as an Assist Trophy, Isaac has already had significant exposure, and represents a critically-marveled and commercially successful RPG series that to date has unjustly received relatively little acknowledgement when compared to other RPG or Nintendo series.

Relatively popular and requested, and one of the frontrunners for currently unrepresented series in Smash, Isaac could very well appear in the next Smash as a playable character. It is certainly inarguable that no matter Isaac’s chances, he would offer a wholly unique magic-and-swordplay combo of a moveset, which wouldn’t be possible with any other character.

Will the sun shine on Isaac again? Will he be able to devastate the field with an onslaught of Earth psynergy? Only time will tell.

Who Is He?

*slight spoilers for Golden Sun series*

Isaac is a Venus psynergy adept, which means he is an earth-related magic user. Beginning his journey at the mysterious and powerful Sol Sanctum, located inside the volcano Mt. Aleph, Isaac and his party travel across the land of Weyard to thwart the evil-doers Saturos and Menardi, and reclaim the elemental jewels which could be used to destroy Weyard. In his travels, he is joined by the Mars (fire) adept Garet, the Jupiter (wind) adept Ivan, and the Mercury (water) adept Mia, as well as many djinn, elemental creatures that in battle boost stats, can be used to attack or defend, and allow for summons (more on that below), among other abilities.

In Golden Sun: The Lost Age, a continuation of the first game, Isaac and his party meet up with the main party of the game, which includes Felix, Jenna (Isaac's childhood friend and future wife), Sheba, and Piers. Isaac is no longer the main protagonist of this game, but is still playable later on when the two parties combine to create an 8-person party. Isaac, Felix and their parties manage to light four elemental lighthouse beacons (a quest that started in the original game), and unleash a mighty power, known as the Golden Sun, which saves, but ravages, the land of Weyard. It also fills the eight party members with significant power and energy and slows their aging.

In Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, a game that takes place 30 years after the events of The Lost Age, Isaac is no longer the main protagonist, although he does show up in the game (with an epic beard

) and is a NPC in the playable party briefly. Although he is nearly 50, due to the Golden Sun he appears to be only in his thirties.

The only other appearance Isaac has had was in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, where he was one of 27 Assist Trophies. He uses the psynergy "Move" to damagelessly push opponents away from him. His trophy reads:

A strong-willed Psynergy adept of the bloodline of an ancient race thought to have been lost with the downfall of civilization. He can manipulate earth-based forces and is also a highly skilled swordsman. He sets out to protect a lighthouse that can release the sealed powers of alchemy. In Smash Bros., he uses "Move" Psynergy, which creates an energy field that pushes foes away.

More detailed summary courtesy of @Swampasaur.

Isaac was born in the small mountain village of Vale which rests at the base of Mt. Aleph. At first he lived in peace with his parents and friends. Like his parents, Isaac is an Venus adept. One day, a great storm happens to knock a boulder loose from the mountain and the town is in panic. This is where Golden Sun starts. During the panic, Isaac and his best friend Garet met two mysterious individuals. They are defeated by the individuals and tossed aside.

Yeah... owned almost instantly.

Isaac grew up to be a Venus Adept while Garet and Jenna became Mars adepts. They became students of the wise old man Kraden. While going about their business, the two mysterious figures return to Vale and are spotted by Isaac, Garet, Jenna and Kraden. The group overhears some mysterious information about the Sol Sanctum and decide to see if it is true.. Once there, the group of heroes realize that they beat the strangers there. Out of curiosity, Kraden orders Isaac and Garet to take the elemental stars off of their pedestals (for scientific purposes of course). The boys gather three of the four stars but before they can grab the last one. The strangers appear and take Kraden and Jenna hostage. The two introduce themselves as Saturos and Menardi and reveal the other two members of their group: a mercury adept named Alex and Felix! Isaac and Garet decide to give the three stars to the villains and move on the grab the fourth one. Before they can get it back to the villains they are interrupted by the volcano erupting which is interrupted by the Wise One. The villains escape and take Kraden and Jenna as hostages, just in case. The Wise One then rescues Isaac and Garet and tells them about the elemental stars. There Isaac learns that the villain's plan is to light all of the elemental lighthouses which would cause the restoration of Alchemy to the world ( a bad thing, as alchemy can easily be abused). Isaac and Garet are tasked by The Wise One to get them back and so they go on your standard JRPG adventure to stop them.

Complete with heartwarming send-off.

On the way to the first lighthouse, they meet a boy named Ivan (a Jupiter adept) who joins their party and some Djinn

Once the group reaches the first lighthouse they meet Mia (a mercury adept) who joins the party as well. They venture into the Mercury Lighthouse and discover that they are too late. The beacon has been lit. The group of heroes find the villains with Kraden and Jenna. Saturos tells the others to go on ahead and he fights the heroes atop the lighthouse. Fortunately he is defeated but escapes with Alex's help. Isaac then ventures to the next lighthouse to stop them.

After a long adventure (most of the game) the group finally reaches the next lighthouse. They scale the Venus lighthouse and find the villains yet again. They lighthouse has not been lit yet and the villains also have a new hostage. A girl named Sheba. Saturos and Mernardi decide that Isaac's group has lived enough and attack! They are defeated and Isaac tries to reason with Felix but he refuses. Suddenly Saturos and Mernadi jump back up, light the lighthouse and fuse together to form a giant dragon in a last ditch effort to defeat the heroes.

Uh-oh is right.

Felix and his hostages watch the fight. Isaac and friends defeat the dragon, but the Lighthouse splits in two separating Felix's group from our heroes. After searching for Felix and finding nothing, the heroes head off to the next lighthouse. This is where Golden Sun ends.

----------------------------

In Golden Sun: The Lost Age, Isaac is not seen for much of the game, as the story is told from Felix's perspective.

Regardless, Isaac's group makes its way to the Jupiter Lighthouse where they are ambushed by Karst and Agatio (Hey Gak, it’s you!). These two want revenge for the murder of Saturos and Mernardi. They separate Isaac's group and ambush Isaac and Ivan.

Garet and Mia are somewhere else.

Felix with his own party (made up of Jenna, Sheba, new recruit Piers and NPC Kraden) save Isaac and light the lighthouse. Isaac demands an explanation of Felix's action and Felix tells some incredible new information. Lighting the lighthouses isn't evil. It's good actually as alchemy will ultimately save the world from destruction. Felix has also been working with Saturos and Mernardi because they saved and captured his parents. He was working with them to earn their freedom.

After some consideration, The two groups join together and decide to light the final lighthouse. They reach it and once they make it to the top of Mars Lighthouse, they are confronted by The Wise One. The Wise One is angry that Isaac betrayed him and asks why he did so. Isaac tells The Wise One that the world will perish if the lighthouses are not lit. The Wise One counters by saying that people will destroy the world if given that much power and revealed that Alex had played them for fools. Alex was waiting on top of Mt. Aleph (where the restoration of Alchemy would start) so that he would receive power and immortality.

For justice!!

Isaac and his friends decide to go through with it, but the Wise One summons a giant three headed dragon. After a long battle, it is revealed that the dragon was a fusion of Felix's parents and Isaac's father. Everyone is horrified but they light the lighthouse anyways.

From here, we get a heart warming ending. Felix's parents and Isaac's father recover from there injuries due to the power of the lighthouse. One more thing! Turns out after all four lighthouses were lit, Mt. Aleph sunk into the ground. Completely destroying Vale!

Oops...

But everyone made it out okay. The Wise One actually warned the people of Vale and they managed a complete evacuation. Kraden guesses the the Wise One actually knew this would happen and simply used the dragon to test Isaac's heart. In the end, Isaac's family is restored and everything seems right in the world.

I'm gonna cry... *sniff*

Unfortunately, Alex still got more power and immortality but not all of it. The Wise One, being wise, set things up so that while some power went to Alex, the other part went to Isaac. This is where the second Golden Sun game ends.

----------------------------

In Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, Isaac's son, Matthew takes the center stage.

In this game Isaac (along with Garet) live in a cottage on the Goma Plateau with their sons. Here Isaac and Garet are computer contolled allies and will help Matthew and Karis (Ivan's daughter) rescue Tyrell (Garet's son) after crashing a Soarwing. After the rescue, he sends the kids to gather materials needed to repair the Soarwing. After the kids leave however, he and Garet disappear. It is currently unknown what happened to them.

How Would He Play?

In the Golden Sun series, Isaac uses multiple ways to attack, whether it be with weapons (usually a sword), psynergy attack (usually earth magic), djinn, or summons, which are huge and powerful attacks that can only be used when djinn that have previously been activated in the battle are in standby mode.

To create the best and most varied possible moveset for Isaac, all different methods of attack could be used in the moveset. Although most movesets usually use psynergy as the specials, swords attacks as the A moves, and a summon as the FS (which would make a fine moveset) the amount of different types of psynergy attacks and djinn effects could potentially downplay the amount of sword-based attacks, which would differentiate Isaac further from currently playable Smash characters. There are many characters that primarily use a sword, but none so far that have their moveset revolve around Earth or ground-based magic.

Summary of Isaac's potential, courtesy of @Sabrewulf238:

Isaac can:

* Create earthquakes (or "Quakes"). Quake Sphere is the strongest version of this attack. Three columns appear under the enemies and they are thrown up and down by the quake.

* Make vines and plants grow (using a psynergy called "Growth") He also has a stronger version called "Wild Growth". Think "male poison ivy".

* Can cause a barrage of rocks to fall on the enemy. (The strongest version of this is called "Avalanche")

* Somewhat similarly to Growth, Isaac can cause thorns to grow up from the ground. The strongest version of this is called "Nettle".

* Create earth spires to launch at the enemy. "Stone Spire" is the most lethal version of this attack.

* Can "attack with the earths might" using a move called "Gaia". The strongest version of this move is called "Grand Gaia".

* Isaac can "attack with a bamboo weapon. From the image it appears that he can summon bamboo shoots out of the ground. This move is called "Punji". The strongest variant of this is called "Punji Strike". I think this is an interesting option that doesn't get mentioned very often.

* Isaac can summon demons (yes, you heard that!) using the move "Demon Night". There is a stronger variant of this called "Thorny Grave". Generally I wouldn't think this would suit Isaac in smash but on the other hand it might be kinda cool to have a curveball like this being part of his moveset.

* Isaac can "crush a foes skull" (yep, he's hardcore) by using one of the "Splitter" attacks. "Helm Splitter" or "Skull Splitter". The latter being the stronger of the two.

* Isaac can use his psynergy to summon a sword. Ragnarok is the one people are most familiar with but there's a stronger variant called "Odyssey". A vote for Isaac is a vote not just for one sword but also a giant freaking spectral sword. It's two for the price of one.

* Isaac can summon a giant psynergy hand (These next few abilities are known as "Utility Psynergy") which he can use in various ways. "Catch" is among the most well known and he uses it to grab various objects in the overworld. It doesn't take much imagination to know where this could factor into his Smash moveset.

* Isaac can use the psynergy "Move" in order to push various objects. This was the ability he used in his Brawl appearance as an assist.

* Isaac can summon two giant psynergy hands in order to lift and carry light objects. This is significant for a few reasons. It shows that Isaac is not just limited to summoning one of these hands at a time like he does in his appearance in Brawl as an assist trophy. We could also assume that Isaac could potentially use these hands to lift him up short distances or throw enemies off the stage.

* Isaac can use the "Scoop" psynergy to dig in soft ground. He could potentially use it as a sand attack in Smash Bros. Although I don't think it's one of his more interesting abilities.

* Isaac can use the "Pound" psynergy to summon a giant hand to pound an object into the ground. Think about how satisfying it would be to be able to summon a giant fist in Smash Bros to slam down on your opponents head.

* Really Isaac's hand based psynergy has a lot of potential. On one hand there's what we know he can do with them in the games, but on the other hand there's what we know hands can do in general. He could use them to slap, punch, poke, give the finger or do any manner of fun stuff if Sakurai was feeling extra creative. For example he could summon a giant hand to give a thumbs up as part of a taunt or victory screen. How about if he loses a battle he summons two giant hands to clap for him?

* Isaac can use the "Halt" psynergy to cause moving objects to stop moving instantly. This could be a paralyzing attack although this wouldn't be something unique to Isaac. It is an option however.

* Isaac can also "Hover" short distances and "Teleport", although these aren't particularly unique to Isaac. However he is capable of doing it.

* Isaac can use Djinn to attack (each have a different effect in battle) or when set change his class and allow him to use powerful Summons. There are four kinds of Djinn based off the four psynergy types. Clockwise in the above picture: Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Mercury. Look at those cute faces.

* If Isaac is wielding the Sol Blade there is a chance that using his default attack will cause a weapon unleash called "Meggido" to occur. It's pretty much slamming a giant flaming meteor into your opponents face. Take that Mario! This could be an option for his Final Smash or they could create a more toned down version as part of his regular moveset.

* Isaac can, as mentioned above summon powerful summons. This would likely be where Isaac would get his Final Smash. "Judgement" in the above picture is the most well known summon and would be a prime candidate for Isaac's Final Smash. "Judgement" flies high up into the sky and shoots a beam of energy out of a Lion head cannon (Hello? Can I get an "Awesome!"?) towards the ground which then explodes into a ball of energy wiping out everything in it's path.

====Beyond this point is where I think the attacks become less appropriate for Isaac's moveset in Smash====

* If Isaac has the tamer class he can actually summon various animals and monsters to help him fight. He can summon a Wild Wolf, an Orc, a Dinox (it's like a dinosaur), a :troll:

, an Emu, a Harpy, a Gryphon, a Minotaur, a Roc, a Grand Golem, a Living Armor and a Ghost Soldier. Personally I don't feel this move would be significant enough to add to his moveset, but he can certainly do it. I feel like something like this would eat too much into the earth side of his moveset. There's enough here for an entire moveset in and of itself!

* I'm not too sure about this one but if Isaac has the "Pierrot" class in The Lose Age he gains a deck of cards that he can use to attack. Can somebody else clarify on this? However most of the attacks used through the deck are Fire and Wind based. So it wouldn't really be appropriate for Isaac. There are some Earth aligned moves such as "Sabre Dance" though, which is an attack of multiple dancing blades. Even MORE swords!

* Isaac can use an attack called "Annihilation" although it is a one hit KO move and would not really be appropriate. However Isaac CAN do it. It would probably make Isaac a great counter to Diddy Kong though. (and everyone else in the game)

* Isaac is capable of healing himself. It probably won't end up being part of his Smash moveset, but he can still do it if necessary. "Cure" is the weakest up to "Potent Cure" which is the strongest. He can also "Revive" allies, which isn't appropriate for Smash so I'm just slipping it in here.

* Isaac can also call upon the undead using a group of psynergy called....."Call" (so I suppose you could say with the right class he can be a necromancer) He can call a Zombie, a Demon and the Dullahan. Again I'm not sure if these attacks would really suit Isaac, but he can do it.

* He can also use Mars (Fire), Jupiter (Wind) and Mercury (Water) psynergy too but that's not what really makes him unique. (although there are definitely some really cool unique moves among the other elements.

* Lastly this is something only Felix is capable of but if Sakurai felt like pulling a Ness with Isaac he could give Isaac the ability to use "Sand". It's an earth psynergy that allowed Felix to turn into sand and use it to navigate the overworld. We could have a Smash fighter capable of actually turning into sand and moving around the stage. Think about that for a second.

In any case, here is a further breakdown of potential moves for Isaac's moveset:
Potential Moves

Psynergy

Quake: Creates earthquakes that shake the ground. Could be chargeable to increase size, damage or duration, or could work similarly to Donkey Kong's down special. Quake in Action.

Growth: Shoots vines upward. Could be used as recovery or even as an Up Smash or other Up attack. Could even be used to create a vine ladder as recovery. Growth in Action.

Rockfall: Causes rockslide on top of opponent. Could be used in the same vein as Pikachu's thunder or as a FS (although it would be very similar to PK starstorm).

Thorn: Shoots spiky thorns from ground. Could be used as a special or a Smash attack. Thorn in Action.

Spire: Similar to rockfall, except instead of boulders, jagged pointed rocks fall. Spire in Action

Gaia: Causes ground to erupt and shoots rocks out. Could work well as a chargeable special, or a FS (which would be similar to a reverse PK Starstorm). Gaia in Action.

Helm/Skull Splitter: Rush forward to deliver a massive swinging attack. Could work as a side special or forward attack.

Ragnarok/Odyssey: Cause a giant sword(s) to devastate the stage and impale the opponent. Would work well as a FS, or a (most likely chargeable) special. Ragnarok and Odyssey in Action.

Move: The "attack" Isaac had in Brawl, could be used as a side special or forward Smash. Will most likely be smaller and have more limited range.

Catch/Carry/Grip/etc.: Isaac could also use his "giant hand" as part of his throws and grabs, as well as it possibly giving him tether recovery.

Teleport: Could teleport Isaac, acting as recovery. Would most likely function similarly to Zelda/Sheik, though would probably not cause damage. Teleport in action. (Apologies for quality)

Djinn
While Djinn have their own section in Golden Sun games, I believe that the best way they will work (if implemented at all) for Isaac in SSB4, is if they appeared with their specific effect a small percentage of the time Isaac did an attack, let's say his forward Smash. Perhaps around 10% or 5% time Isaac did damage with his Forward Smash, a djinn would be activated and add an extra effect. Effects could be derived from specific Venus djinn, such as:

Flint: Would increase the damage and knockback done by 50%
Sap: Isaac recovers a small percent of damage.
Ground: Opponent would be dizzy momentarily after being hit.
Bane: Opponent receives extra poison damage after the hit. Similar to less-powerful Lip's Stick.

I'd love to hear opinions on this. Feel free to tell me if you agree or disagree or how you would have it changed.

Summon
(these would probably all be different options for Isaac's FS)

Ramses: His fists could act like a larger and more damaging version of Latios/Latias.

Cybele: Her summoned creature would burrow into the stage and have it explode with vines.

Judgment: Would shoot a giant energy explosion onto the center of the stage that would cause major damage. This would most likely be Isaac's Final Smash, as it is his strongest summon.

These summons could either cause a short cut-scene like Captain Falcon's FS, would happen partly in the background, like Pit's FS, or would cause the screen to shift, like Olimar's FS.

Example Movesets

Video Moveset:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYmu7ZR3Wfo
I recommend watching this one. Credit to @pizzadudemanguy.

I feel the Golden Sun series has enough quality to it to warrant a playable character. With that said, there is quite a bit of debate as to what kind of character Isaac should be if made playable. Some suggest that he should be a sword fighter with magic, while others suggest he should be primarily a magic user with some sword attacks thrown in. My suggestion on Isaac will be a character that balance swordplay with magic (or psynergy in the case of the Golden Sun universe).

Isaac will be very bizarre as while he does use his sword, his sword does a magic attack in tangent with the sword attack. Isaac also has very devastating attacks and is pretty fast. Isaac also uses other stuff such as bamboo, among other things. Isaac is easily one of the most unique characters on my roster, and is far from a typical sword character.

Isaac regular moves:

A: Isaac makes a horizontal slice with his sword with one hand (think Ike’s a-tilt).

A-continuously: Isaac will make continuous horizontal, diagonal, and vertical slices with his sword (though these sword attacks are weak).

Running-A: Isaac will swipe with his sword while running.
Tilt-A: Isaac does an energy palm attack (this is similar to Ganondorf’s standard A from Brawl).

Down-A: Isaac stabs the ground and fire comes up from it (think Ike’s eruption).

Up-A: Isaac will throw a small ball of energy upward (it dissipates a little bit after Isaac throws it).

A-Air: Isaac somersaults in the air with his sword.
Forward-air: Isaac whips out a bamboo stick and wildly swings it around.

Backward-air: Isaac will do a quick chop with his sword in back of him.

Down-air: Isaac plunges diagonally with his sword, however, unlike other sudden down attacks, if Isaac hits his enemy in mid-air they will be dragged down along with him until they hit the ground. Expect it to be an annoying kamekaze move.
Up-air: Isaac puts his hands together as though it were a gun a shoots out some balls of energy.

Forward-Smash: This move is based off of Cannon from Golden Sun. Isaac’s sword will glow with fire energy. When done charging, Isaac will thrust forward with his burning blade and there will be an explosion.

Down-Smash: This move is based off of Squall. Isaac jumps up in the air and plunges his sword in the ground, and when he does electricity shoots around the area where he plunged the sword, as well as there being an electric aura around Isaac.

Up-Smash: Isaac’s sword glows purple while charging. When done charging Isaac shoots out a purple blade from his sword that shoots upward. While Isaac’s up-smash has the highest reach in the game, it only does 20% damage when fully charged.

Grabs:
Isaac is capable of tether-recovery because he uses his growth vines to initially grab his opponents.

Grab-A: Thorns come out of the vines and poke the binded opponent.

Backward-Grab: Isaac whips his opponent out of the vines and then shoot them with an several small balls of energy.

Forward-Grab: Isaac will whip his opponent out of the vines, and then shoot out an Oddysey Blade.

Down-Grab: Isaac slams his opponent to the ground and then whacks them with his sword.

Up-Grab: Isaac tosses his opponent up and then shoots out an Odyssey Blade.

Isaac special moves:

B: Boulder: Isaac generates a huge boulder above his head. The boulder is created from a bunch of small rocks all fusing together. However, the bigger the boulder, the harder it will be for Isaac to psychically toss it at his opponents.

Side-B: Move: Isaac’s move from his first appearance in the Smash series makes a return. Isaac will generate a giant energy hand that is the same size as it was in Brawl. While this move does no damage, it is by far the best edge guard move in the game. However, there is an initial lag when Isaac is about to do it, and Isaac himself is vulnerable to attack while and after performing this move.

Down-B: Punji Strike: Isaac shoots bamboo sticks out of the ground in front of him. This traps opponents momentarily like DK’s side-b, however, unlike DK’s side-b, this move needs to be charged to determined how long your opponent will be trapped within the bamboo imprisonment. If done immediately, Punji Strike only holds your opponent for a second.

Up-B:Retreat: Isaac’s teleportation move is probably the best in the entire Smash series. Isaac’s will disappear in a plume of rainbowy bubbles. This move has excellent vertical and horizontal recovery, and can even go through solid stages. However, this move does not do any damage.

Final Smash: Odyssey: Isaac’s has a massive aura of psynergy surrounding his body. He then calls forth two giant swords made of psynergy that pierce one of your opponents in an X-formation (the one that is currently winning in the match). This paralyzes the opponent that got struck the opponent. Isaac then calls forth a gigantic sword that goes across the entire screen. Getting hit by this sword is an OHKO, so the person who got hit with the two swords is pretty much screwed, however, your unparalyzed opponents can jump over this sword, though it takes a double jump to avoid it.

Isaac’s taunts are as follows:
1. Isaac will smile and look up at the sky, and then close his eyes, while a small amount of pebbles circle his body.
2. Isaac will stretch, and then crack his knuckles.
3. Isaac will make a whole bunch of pebbles levitate above his head with his powers, one of the pebbles falls on top of Isaac’s head, he then rubs his head and all the other pebbles fall.

Isaac’s victory animations are as follows:
1. Isaac will do a whole bunch of slashes with his sword then he does a slight smirk.
2. Isaac will close both his eyes, smile, and give a thumb-up with one of his hands.
3. Isaac will make a whole bunch of rocks encircle his body, and then make them drop after a bit.

Running-animation:
Isaac’s running animation is not bizarre, and is quite plain. Isaac simply runs in similar fashion as Mario.

Idle animation:
Isaac will look pretty battle-ready from his face, though he stands how he stands when he is summoned from his Assist Trophy form in Brawl. Isaac will routinely clench his fists, and crack his knuckles.

Costumes:
1. Isaac’s main clothing becomes red, while the scarf-cape becomes green.
2. Isaac’s main clothing becomes yellow, while the scarf-cape becomes blue.
3. Isaac’s main clothing becomes green, while the scarf-cape becomes red.
4. Isaac’s main clothing becomes black, while the scarf-cape becomes red.
5. Isaac borrows the same color scheme for his costume that Felix has.

Kirby Hat:
Kirby will gain Issac’s hair upon absorbing him, and will be able to perform the special move Boulder.

Isaac-Snake Codec Conversation:
Snake: Otacon, I’m fighting another one of those sword kids.
Otacon: Actually, this “kid” is different. His name is Isaac. He uses some sort of psychic ability called psynergy.
Snake: ...Psynergy?
Otacon: Its like sort of psychic energy and magic combined, it has elemental affiliation to it. Isaac is an Earth adept and can manipulate duh earth related elements.
Snake: Yeah...
Otacon: Not only that, he can create swords and hands with his psynergy abilities as well as teleport.
Snake: Yawn....
Otacon: So, what is so boring about a guy who can create giant swords and boulders with his MIND.
Snake: Its not him, its just that I have seen it all, you know what I mean.
Otacon: Yeah, I guess all those years fighting those bizarre opponents really took away your ability to say “Wow”.
Snake: I guess. Thanks for the heads up on this guy.
End of codec.

End of Isaac moveset.

Nuetral Standing A - punch
Neutral Standing A,A - punch, moves slightly foward second punch
Neutral Standing A,A,A,Etc - punch, punch, knee, repeat

Dashing A - quick Strike (similar to Marth's dashing A, sword has a blueish glow)

f+tilt A - punji (does a mid height swipe with a bamboo stick, attack can be angled)
u+tilt A - sword slash (attacks above self in a half circle slash)
d+tilt A - planet diver (similar to Samus' d+tilt)

Nuetral Air A - straight posistioned sex kick ( Samus,Link,Falco,Shiek)
Forward Air A - cutting edge (slashes forward with blade, two phantom slashes follow while Isaac falls towards the ground)
Up Air A - rock slide ( a group of damaging rocks shortly circle Isaac (slightly similar to Kirby's neutral air a))
Down Air A - death plunge (attacks with sword in a swandive and pulls the enemy downwards for the duration of the attack)
Back Air A - blast (puts hand behind back and attacks with a sweetspotted, small explosion)

Forward A Smash - force (a large gloved fists punches foward, can be angled)
Down A Smash - sword swipe (similar to Link's, Marth's down a smash)
Up A Smash - plasma (Isaac raises his hand and attacks with a multiple hitting, electrifying ball in his hand)

Grab: Isaac grabs with his growth vines (can be used as a recover)
Neutral A Grab - thorn (opponent is tied up in vines, thorns come out of the vines and give damage)
Down Throw - Gale (throws the opponent downwards into a whirlwind, which sends the opponent flying upwards)
Front, Back, Up Throw - Move (A large gloved hand throws the opponent in the choosen direction)

Neutral B - Gaia (summons a boulder above head that is thrown downwards in a 45° angle (can be charged like Ness' neutral B)
Forward B - Ragnarok (shoots a large sword straight forward. Likely extremely laggy)
Down B - Tornado (twirls around in a circle and gives damage) (or Mind Read: shortly disables opponent (like Mewtwo's down b))
Up B Recovery - Phoenix (flies upward in a fiery phoenix animation) (or Retreat: Teleports self in a rainbow of colorful bubbles)

Super Move: Justice (summons a large knight who blasts the whole field), or Halt (can shortly stop all opponents from moving and can give damage in that time), or Oddessey (similar to Ragnarok, just with a much larger sword)

Taunt: Stands still and has the wind blow through his hair while staring into the distance.

A- A quick slash with his sword (2%, 4% at tip)

Over+A- A sword thrust (8-9%, 13-14% at tip)

Smash Over+A- Cannon (14-20%, 16-25% at tip)A quick running slash forwards.

Up+A- A 180 degree swing of your sword. Starting from your front side ending behind you. (7-9%, 10-13% at tip)

Smash Up+A- Flint (15-22%, 17-24% at tip) A strong jumping slash. That has decent knockback and it turns brown when it hits.

Down+A- Thrust your sword at a downwards diagonal angle. (9-11%, 11-14% at tip)

Smash Down+A- Squall (13-20%, 15-23% at tip) A jumping slash. Not alot of knock back but it may stun you for just a second lighting surrounds the person who is hit.

B- Cutting Edge (Shockwave 5-8%, Hit by sword 9-11% ) You create a shock wave, by swinging your sword down, that travels across the stage until it hits a person. It would be able to be used as fast as Falco's gun.

Over+B- Annihilation (8-12%, 13-16% at tip) Quick rushing slash forward.

Up+B- Planetary (Hit by dragon 13-16%, Hit by explosion 15% ) Isaac jumps high into the air and comes down as a flaming dragon head making an explosion when he hits.

Down+B- Punji Strike (4-12% ) Isaac shoots bamboo out of the ground in front of him. Anyone caught recieves continuous damage and can't move like Donkey's Down+B

Up+Grab- Death Leap (7-11% ) Leap into the air and slam back down.

Forward+Grab- Perform a horizontal slash across your opponents chest. (8-12% )

Back+Grab- Teleport behind the person your grabbing and slash their back. (9-11% )

Down+Grab- Throw the person you are grappling into the ground. (7-10% )

Shield- Granite

Brawl Attack- Catastrophe

Isaac raises his arm and screams "Catastrophe!". The screen goes dark and lightning shoots from the sky. You see a huge menacing figure with darg angel wings and many weapons descend from the heavens. He charges energy and sends it to the tip of his sword, incasing it in a triangular pyramid seal. He shoots it down to the field, it explodes open and shoots out electricity on either side in the shape of a dragon's head.

B: Ragnarok. Isaac / Matthew charge up their blade similary in fashion like the FE characters would (but with no freedom of letting go like them) and casts a huge sword-like projectile out of it about a Bowser and a half wide (with an awesome sweetspot in the very middle) about 2 characters in front of him. The move would be as slow almost as Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, but has around the same knockback (weaker still) and does a whopping 28~32% when sweetspotted. 19~22% if a little off, 10~14% at the very end of the move). The move would probably have some super armor as well at the last few frames of the move.

Up B: Growth. Plants grow out of the ground to attack, or grow around a ledge for Isaac to climb back to the stage (working similary to a ladder). The plants would cause a slight sort of trapping effect, and do around 5% damage, but could be a good set up for a stronger attack. The higher the other character's %, the longer they stay trapped kinda similar to how ZZS's stun works, but this one is somewhat weaker. You can escape the plants by jumping.

Side B: I'd want to put Move here, but I kinda dislike the idea of it being an attack for him so... I say this should be Stone Spire, a ranged charge up move involving stone spires falling out of the sky on an opponent. If charged for a little, just one Spire comes out, and does about 12~14% damage, and could be considered as Isaac's main projectile, as it'd be coming out as fast as PK Fire would (except it being slightly stronger and with shorter range). Charged up somewhat longer and Isaac would cast 2 Spires next to each other, each doing about 12~14% damage. Charged up fully Isaac would cast a total of 4 Spires, and the effect would be similar to Charizard's Rock Smash on earlier %s, and would have nice knockback.

Down B: Gaia. A moveable projectile you can aim at the ground, where you can create an earthy erruption out of when releasing B. Like Stone Spire, you can actually build up damage as well when holding B, but this one lacks the sheer power you can build up with Stone Spire, but it can trap better, and requires a little more skill even. It's a option only usable on SOLID ground, so not on small platforms, it can also be done around edges, but not OVER the edges as it needs ground to be preformed. And it's strongest or most effective when a character is on the ground as well. It's actually like a moveable mine of sorts, and can be as strong depending on how long you hold B. It's the same kind of story with Stone Spire, hold B briefly and release and Gaia would be a small erruption, covering about 1.5 a Mario wide and does 11~14% if the opponent gets trapped in fully. Hold it longer and you'd have Mother Gaia which'd already cover 3 Mario's wide and could do 16~18%, hold if for the longest and you have Grand Gaia, which is a massive attack doing 23~27% and delivers great knockback if the opponents gets trapped in the move fully. As a general rule with this move, the stones comming out of the erruption do the building up damage, would work KIND OF similar to the Smart Bombs.

General playstyle of Isaac would be harder to learn than most characters, as his ranged attacks are his biggest assets. His Psynergy is rather slow, but are very good setups, a small Gaia spell could be cast into a stronger Spire spell, or otherwise. He'd be highly unpredictable, but at the same time, rather slow and furnable while casting spells. He wouldn't like projectile spam himself either, but Isaac has a strong big shield to protect himself with (like, Mewtwo's big shield but slightly smaller) and a normal Spire would be fast enough to counter back with most of the time.

He's highly versitale in his B moves, and his A moves would mostly consist of sword attacks. His sword would be a little longer than Toon Link's, and are mostly swift attacks with only a few moves you can effectively kill with. As a Venus Adept he fights the best on the ground, and would perhaps have a below average aerial game and jumps. He also would be a tad lighter than Marth, but shorter as well. He would mainly be good at egdeguarding, and KOing characters from the side of the screen, not from the top. His grab game is above average though and his throws go far and do good damage, and could possibly be ranged if they implenent the Move ability from him in it (it wouldn't go as far as in Brawl, but rather about a character in front of him) to counter these seeminly broken grabs, if Isaac would miss a grab, there is some serious lag involved. His running speed is about as fast as Luigi's, maybe a little faster even. Overall he's a character you have to play with smarts, but he can be highly effective if used well. His Psynergy is powerful and great for setting up combos, but he's still rather fragile, and even though he has some speed you have to watch out for lag often.

As a Final Smash, it must be Judgement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iHwgkwtMUY

I feel Djinni could also make part of Isaac's Smash moves, having their own gimmick that they need to 'recharge' to use the move as strongly as before. Isaac should have a dangerous ground game, but he'd be weak in the air. His aerials are similar to Roy's in usage, yet not quite as fast, but with a little better reach (counting Roy's sweetspots, otherwise they have lower overall range). And his air speed would also be rather sluggish.

Isaac Moveset

Stats
Size: 5
Same as his size in Brawl.

Weight: 6
Slightly above normal. He's heavy as the earth he controls... Plus he's wearing a breastplate. That's kinda heavy.

Speed: 5
Normal speed. He's not fast but he doesn't need it.

Air Speed: 3
Pretty bad. Then again, Isaac is not meant to be in the air. He's a Venus adapt.

Fall Speed: 8
He falls like a rock. Natural for an Earth adapt.

Jump: 5
His initial jump is a lot better than most would expect. For it, Isaac would use the earth to launch him upward. However his midair jump is quite atrocious. He is definitely meant to be a grounded character.

Traction: 9
Among the best in the game. He is affected by ice though. Unlike .

Throwing: 8
Isaac using Catch Psyenergy has great throwing range and decent power as well!

Reach: 7
Many of Isaac's attacks are actually psyenergy attacks. This gives him more range than most. The moves that aren't Psyengery are sword swipes which also have decent range.

Jab Combo
A: Isaac does a quick horizontal slice.
A,A: After the initial attack Isaac slices in the opposite direction.

Dash Attack
Isaac runs forward and sticks out his sword skewering his opponents (at least the animation looks like it)on it and sending them flying.

Tilts
F-Tilt: Isaac stretches out his hand and commands a rock to rise up in front of him, hitting the enemy.
U-Tilt: Isaac stands still and does a light stab upwards.
D-Tilt: Isaac crouches and performs a downward angled stab.

Aerials

N-Air: Isaac retracts his arms and legs as small rocks orbit around him. This is a multihit attack.
F-Air: Isaac swings his sword and does a full spin around. This can hit up to two times in the same attack if the position is right.
U-Air: Isaac throws some crystal powder upwards which causes an icy explosion on contact. Can freeze enemies at certain percentages.
B-Air: Isaac hits the opponent with his shoulder and follows up by throwing an oil drop in their face. This is a small explosion on hit. A decent kill move if both hit.
D-Air: Isaac causes a small boulder to form in his hands and throws it downward. This rock will fall straight down for a while similar to Megaman's Hard Knuckle. However this does not meteor smash and should be used as a sort of projectile instead.

Smashes
F-Smash: Isaac performs his famous leaping attack. This is his attack animation from the Golden Sun games and its pretty similar to Toon Link's F-Smash in Project M.
U-Smash: Isaac clenches his hands as the ground on either side of him starts to shake. After charging Isaac turns his palms upward as sand flies around above him. A small whirlwhind of sand appears above him and will suck enemies in (kinda like Pikachu's D-Smash). The attack ends as a small sandsplosion happens to knock enemies away. This is a multihit attack.
D-Smash: Isaac kneels on one knee and clenches his fists. After charging he stands up as the two sections of earth next to him shake a bit. If this hits, the enemy will sink into the ground as if they were hit by a Pitfall. Isaac is then free to do what he wants as they are burried.

Throws
Isaac's psyenergy hand comes out for his throws! His grab animation is him sending out the psyengery hand to grab people. It is a ranged grab, but it cannot do anything in the air. While grabbing/pummeling/throwing the opponent, Isaac will mimic the movements of the giant hand with his own hand (or the giant hand is mimicing Isaac's hand )
Pummel: The hand will squeeze the opponent.
F-Throw: The hand will lightly throw the opponent forward and follow up with Force Psyenergy to really send them flying!
U-Throw: The hand will throw the opponent upwards with an underhand throw.
B-Throw: The hand throws the opponent up slightly and swats them away behind Isaac.
D-Throw: The hand throws the opponent at the ground and follows up with a Pound Psyenergy!

Specials
N-Special: Isaac casts move! Isaac holds out his hand and has the familar hand from Brawl come out. It acts exactly the same, though it's 1/3 the size and 1/3 the range.
S-Special: Isaac casts vine. Isaac puts his hands on the ground as a small section of the ground lights up. It moves if you hold down the button. The longer you hold it down, the longer it goes. When you release the button, vines pop out of the ground where the light was. It's kinda of like a ground based version if Din's Fire if that makes sense. This does not work in the air.
U-Special: Isaac performs retreat. Isaac teleports as a bunch of rainbow like jewels forms around him causing small damage with little knockback. The same jewels appear where he appears.
D-Special: Isaac casts Quake. Isaac thrusts his sword in the earth while two pillars of earth come up on each side in a ripple effect, launching players up. Kind of like the animation for quake in GS. I hope that makes sense.... This also cannot be used in the air. Isaac is meant to be ground based.

Final Smash: JUDGEMENT!!!
Isaac lifts his hand up to the sky and yells "Come! Judgement!" as Judgement flies into the background. He'll charge up a blast for about five seconds. While this is happening Isaac is still vulnerable to enemy attacks. After five seconds Judgement will fire the blast at the center of the stage creating a circular blast about 7/8 of Final Destination's length. The blast lasts for 3 seconds. This attack does high knockback and high damage.

Other Attacks
Ledge Attack: Isaac grips the end of the stage and has a small pillar erupt from the ground right in front of him. He then climbs up.
Over 100%: Isaac struggles to get on the ledge and swings his sword as he gets up.

Floor Attack: Isaac opens his eyes and smiles as two stalagmites erupt from the ground on both sides of him. He then gets up casually.

Entrance
Isaac beams down using Retreat and unsheathes his sword.

Taunts
U-Taunt: Isaac looks at the screen and makes the

emoticon.
S-Taunt: A Djinn jumps out of Isaac with a flash of light. It runs around Isaac while Isaac laughs. The Djinn then jumps back into Isaac as it "sets" itself.
D-Taunt: Isaac uses his psyenergy to have some rocks orbit around him. He smiles as they all fall to the ground.

Idle Animation
If you wait long enough. Isaac will look at the screen and make the

emoticon.

Victory Animations
1. Isaac sheathes his sword and does a small arm pump while light shines from his hand.
2. A Djinn jumps out of Isaac and faces him. Isaac kneels down and pets him.
3. Isaac crosses his arms and chuckles as the

emoticon appears.

Kirby Hat
Kirby gains Isaac's golden hair and his move ability.

Feel free to discuss these movesets and post your own movesets. Isaac has so many options, practically every moveset is different!

Matthew: Another Possibility

Although Isaac is usually thought of when it comes to a Golden Sun rep in Smash Bros, his son Matthew, protagonist and main character of Dark Dawn, could also be a legitimate contender to the Golden Sun spot, and is really Isaac's main competition, as Sakurai might want to include the newest main character of Golden Sun instead of the first main character. However, like father like son, as Matthew is practically the same as Isaac, moveset capability-wise and aesthetically. If he were to be included in Smash over Isaac, he would most likely still have a moveset that could apply to both him and his father. Mostly what it comes down to is a name and outfit difference, and that's pretty much it.

Also, comments given by Golden Sun developers Camelot have suggested that Isaac's game were really a "prologue" to the main Golden Sun storyline, which will most likely star Matthew in the main role. Here are the Takahashi brothers (the presidents of Camelot and creators of Golden Sun) comments regarding this:

We had intended the first two to be more of a prologue!

The first two series were part of opening the door to that world. I myself wanted to see what would happen after that.

If Matthew really is to become the "main character" of Golden Sun in the future, Sakurai might choose to include him, as he will remain relevant to Golden Sun while Isaac might be limited to supporting roles, or not be included at all in the possible future games.

Nevertheless, some only support Isaac while others only support Matthew, while some, like me, support both, and would be happy getting either. But what do you think? Do you think that Isaac will be the "Marth" of his series and get the playable spot? Or do you think that Sakurai will want to represent Golden Sun with the newest and possibly "main" protagonist? (If Golden Sun gets a rep at all). Feel free to discuss your opinions and why or why not you support Isaac or Matthew or both (or neither).

What Are His Chances?

Well, chances are always a tricky thing to predict accurately, and no amount of speculation will be able to yield anything more than an educated guess, but there are a few ways to better determine the odds of or against a character: Eligibility, Pros and Cons, and Arguments/Counterarguments.

These three first test to see if a character is even eligible based on standards set by the creator and previous additions or exclusions, then weigh the redeeming and positive qualities of the character or points in their favor against things that might hinder their inclusion, and finally deal with common arguments against inclusion, with the goal to clear up misconception and provide the most accurate view of the character's chances. Now it helps when the person doing this is unbiased against the character, but I'll try to be as neutral as possible. Embarrass

So first off is:
Eligibility

The most basic conditions to pass here are is the character of a video game origin, and have they been on a Nintendo console. Isaac (or Matthew), as a 2nd party Nintendo character, obviously passes both.
Then, we move on to the four conditions Sakurai has set on what he looks for in a characters addition:

1) The character’s inclusion must make people want to play the game
As popularity polls and fan demand prove, there would be an audience that would enjoy playing as Isaac.

2) The character must be unique
Unless both Isaac and Matthew make it in (which they won’t), there really is no problem here. Isaac has the potential to be just about as unique as they come.

3) The character must fit into the style of Smash Bros.
Already appearing as an Assist Trophy, Isaac proves that he is able to mesh well with the existing worlds and characters of Smash Bros.

4) The character must contribute to the game balance
This sort of seems like it would mostly be up to the developers, but Isaac would be able to use a mix of magic and swordplay, which would bring something very interesting to the balance of the game.

So Isaac passes the eligibility round. Honestly though, almost all Smash 4 candidates would, it's not exactly difficult.

Next are the
Pros and Cons

First are the pros and cons to the inclusion of a Golden Sun character in general, followed by the pros and cons of including Isaac over Matthew, then Matthew over Isaac. If there are any more pros and cons you can think of, please let me know!

Pros:

One of Nintendo's most critically and (proportionate) commercially successful series not yet represented. (With characters that Sakurai hasn't deemed unworkable)
Wide and unique moveset potential
Largely requested playable character
New game post-Brawl

Cons:

Series declining in popularity (especially in Japan)
Unsure future

Pros:

Most popular and requested Golden Sun character
One of the most requested SSB4 characters in general (excluding Japan)
Most prevalent/well-known Golden Sun character
Already appeared in Smash

Cons:

Not current or future protagonist
Hasn't had a starring role since pre-Brawl

Pros:

Current and possibly future protagonist
Relatively recent appearance

Cons:

Not as popular or requested as Isaac
Game not as critically or commercially successful as Isaac's

Lastly the
Arguments/Counterarguments

These are my attempts to refute some of the most commonly found arguments brought up against Isaac, such as relevance, declining popularity, being generic, and competition. Feel free to add your own points for or against my counterarguments! ^_^
(Also, apologies to Matthew fans/supporters, I wrote these with Isaac in mind. Most can also apply to Matthew as well though.)

It may be true that Isaac hasn’t been playable since before Brawl, but by no means does that mean he isn’t relevant, and more importantly, popular. In Dark Dawn, Isaac was no longer playable, but he still played a rather sizeable supporting role, with more dialogue than he ever had before ( :laugh:

), and is still quite relevant to his series and Smash speculation.

However, more importantly, he has retained his popularity for the most part since Brawl. He is still the most popular character in a series still relevant, which frankly is more important than the character itself being relevant (though he is that as well). Plus, as an AT in Brawl, he has remained in the minds of many which has probably contributed to his longstanding popularity, prevalence, and relevance.

Even if Isaac isn’t included, we are bound to get some new sword users in SSB4, whether they be Takamaru, Shulk, Saki, Krom, Ghirahim, Samurai Goroh, or other characters. However, Isaac wouldn’t be just a sword-based character, like some of the previously mentioned characters would be. If implemented well, Isaac’s moveset would revolve more around Venus psynergy (Earth-based magic) than it would around swordplay, which would probably be limited to only some A attacks. In this way, Isaac wouldn’t be a sword-user in the same vein as Link or Marth, but more of a varied and diverse fighter. For more examples and details on Isaac’s potential moveset, you can look at the Potential Moves section.

As ridiculous as this argument is, believe it or not I’ve heard it before, assumingly from someone who never played Golden Sun. Much like the answer above, Isaac’s moveset would be an amalgamation of different Earth-based magic attacks (such as earthquakes and plant control), swordplay (or possibly even axeplay), as well as a giant destructive summon. What other spiky blonde haired swordsmen can do that? (other than Matthew)

It’s true that the majority of Isaac’s popularity really resides outside of Japan, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t requested in his native country as well. The notion that Isaac isn’t popular in Japan is one that has unfortunately been exaggerated over time. He still shows up semi-regularly in Japanese Smash discussions and is acknowledged as a distinct possibility (though they also acknowledge he has more popularity in the west). I would say in Japan he is the equivalent to a character on Smashboards that isn’t at the top of any polls, but is still regularly regarded as a character who is while not the most likely, still has a shot (such as perhaps Starfy). To put it in perspective, if Sakurai included Isaac in SSB4, while it might be mostly because of the western Smashers, it wouldn’t be almost solely because of them (like Little Mac or Ridley would be).

I won’t deny that Dark Dawn did not meet the level of sales or critical success that the original two games did (which sold slightly above and slightly below one million respectively), but that doesn’t make the series unpopular. Dark Dawn still sold several hundred k which isn’t terrible (it’s better than some other unrepped Nintendo series’ most recent games) and honestly isn’t bad enough to warrant the declaration of complete loss of popularity. Also, it is important to note that while the casual Golden Sun market and popularity has decreased, the more hardcore fans (like the ones who request Isaac for Smash), are, yes, perhaps dismayed by Dark Dawn’s quality, but still for the most part active and supporting the series. It’s not like several hundred k is a bomb or an average critical score of around 80% is a terrible game.

This is the argument against Isaac that I believe carries the most weight. While he isn’t necessarily “outclassed” by other characters from unrepresented series, he does face some fierce competition from them. However, this argument could also apply to many of them. Also, it’s not like there will only be room for one character from an unrepresented series. If Brawl is anything to go by, we might get around 3. (I don’t consider new retro characters in the category that might jeopardize characters such as Isaac, since their inclusion seems to be based on different standards than other characters – same with new 3rd parties).

Characters like Starfy or Saki Isaac is overall more requested than (even in Japan Isaac is around the same requests as Starfy on most sites), as well as having a more prolific and well-known series that has been released internationally in every installment, something that Sakurai values. Sakurai seems to favor Saki (or at least Sin & Punishment), but how much his bias will affect him is left to be seen. However going by a sales comparison (which granted, isn’t a very good way to compare things in Smash Bros.) approximately ten times more people would be familiar with Isaac than Saki, which would help with Sakurai’s first rule of Smash eligibility: the character’s inclusion must make people want to play the game. It’s not a rigid rule, but generally people want to play a game more when they know more of the characters. However, Sakurai’s bias and Saki’s Japanese popularity might win through.

I believe the biggest competitors to Isaac lie in Little Mac and Shulk. While Little Mac has basically no demand in Japan (Isaac definitely has more), his western popularity and demand outmatch Isaac. If Sakurai looks to the west for a new series to represent, chances are it won’t be Golden Sun; it will be Little Mac and Punch-Out. However, that’s not to say they both can’t be in the game, truthfully there’s a fairly good chance of that happening. The only other character I believe might out-prioritize Isaac from being included, is Shulk from Xenoblade. There’s a chance they might both make it in (personally I would love that); however there is also a fairly large chance it will be one or the other. Other than likely movesets, they have a lot of similarities, such as genre and aesthetics, and adding both might make Sakurai feel like it would be overkill (I personally doubt Sakurai will have this mentality, it's more likely one will just be given more priority than the other, possibly resulting in one ending up on the chopping block). Both also have points for and against them, Shulk has lots of Japanese support as well as fairly decent western support, however Sakurai might feel his is too new, and obviously his one game isn’t as widespread as the Golden Sun series. Meanwhile Isaac has lots of western support as well as maintaining popularity and has been heavily requested since pre-Brawl. Plus despite what people say, Sakurai judges series based on the overall series, not the most recent game. However, Isaac doesn’t have nearly as much Japanese support Shulk does. If Ridley and Little Mac are included, perhaps Sakurai will think the west has been appeased enough? All I can say is it will be very interesting to see which one (or both! Please?) makes it.

And this isn’t to say that Sakurai has a fixed number of new (non-retro, non-3rd party) series he wants to represent. Each character stands on their own merit, but based on previous rosters, it wouldn’t be likely to go over three or four.

As there is no concrete proof that second-parties are viewed as “lesser” by Sakurai, this is a huge assumption to make, sometimes predicated on a pattern that doesn’t actually exist. Sakurai’s previous actions when it comes to new series addition in Smash indicate that he includes characters based on the prominence of their series. The series added so far (excluding the series Sakurai has dismissed for playability and series that have had their largest impact after Brawl’s development) have been Nintendo’s largest and most popular. Isaac and other 2nd party characters that have been previously omitted from being playable weren’t omitted on the basis of them being 2nd party, it is because they weren’t as prevalent, prominent, or popular as the characters/series added. Sakurai isn’t going to add a seemingly random less-popular series (which the non-Pokémon 2nd party IPs were in previous development times) over a series that clearly deserves it more. Again, other than Pokémon, Nintendo’s first-parties that have been included are just larger and more popular than its second-parties, which is the reason they were included first.

Until we see an incredibly deserving 2nd party character or series (which, truthfully, there aren’t any this time around), one more deserving than most of the remaining first-parties, being passed up in favour of additions made up solely of first-parties, third-parties, and Pokémon (which is not in fact in its own category, it is a second party IP, and like all second parties, has partial control over its IP which Sakurai is obviously willing to negotiate on), this assumption should just be treated as a fairly flawed and faulty theory, and should have no effect on roster speculation.

Other arguments that fit under this section are people who claim that 2nd parties are too much effort to work with, 2nd parties won’t be included because Nintendo does not have full, guaranteed lifelong rights to their IPs, or Sakurai would not find merit in a series not fully owned by Nintendo. As for the first point, Sakurai has negotiated with Game Freak three times already in regards to characters, as well as 2nd-parties like Camelot and Noise, and 3rd-parties like TOSE, Treasure, and especially Sega and Konami in regards to content involvement. Obviously he makes the effort necessary to contact these 2nd and 3rd parties if he thinks the addition is merited, which obviously he has previously. There would be no reason why he would change this mentality now. As for the second and third points, the fact that he has included characters not even partially owned by Nintendo should pretty much show that legal ownership and creative control do not outweigh Sakurai’s belief that the character in question merits inclusion. And if Sakurai thinks third-parties merit inclusion, it’s entirely possible he’d think 2nd-parties could.

What everything so far boils down to is again, the first-parties included up to this point have been bigger, more popular, and/or more important than the non-Pokémon second parties, like Golden Sun. It’s not that 2nd-parties get purposely excluded, at this time that is simply an unfounded theory which shouldn’t hold any weight.

This commonly believed idea that was caused by the statement "Pikmin and Animal Crossing are the only Nintendo series introduced since 2001 that Sakurai feels are worthy of being given playable characters." is actually a misinterpretation. Sakurai's actual statement is "One thing that was kind of a challenge is that we haven't had a lot of new characters from Nintendo since Captain Olimar [that could work well in a fighting game]; a lot of games have been Mario titles or new iterations of existing series.", which clearly designates characters created post-Olimar and pre-Brawl (like Starfy), of which Isaac and Golden Sun are not part of, having been released before Pikmin. He is also referring to fighting potential, not merit, like originally thought. Sakurai's opinions about Golden Sun are unknown at this time, though it did warrant an AT last time.

If you can think of any other arguments used regularly against Isaac (or Matthew) that I forgot, feel free to share them! I’ll try my best to get to them

More on Isaac and Golden Sun

Epic Golden Sun Icon made by @Onyx Oblivian

Isaac for SSBB thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=73511

Isaac at SmashWiki
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac

Isaac at Golden Sun Universe
http://goldensunwiki.net/Isaac

Isaac at the Golden Sun Wiki
http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac

Golden Sun on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Sun_(series)

Takahashi Bros. interview about Dark Dawn (source for the quotes)
http://goldensun.nintendo.com/developer-interview/

The first recolor is based on Garret and the second is based on Matthew. The red is based on Jenna. The blue is based on Alex and the green is based on Felix.

So feel free to discuss Isaac, Matthew, and anything related to Golden Sun in Smash 4 below. Share your movesets, stage or AT ideas, discuss his pros and cons, rate his chances, and don't hesitate to correct or criticize what I've written.

List of Supporters

_Sheik
1/128
9Blades
☆Jisatsu☆
*Verrix*
Accursed
Adeptmune
Agk0001
AgatioGanon
Aguki90
airConditioner
aldelaro5
alguidrag
Altais
Amberloo
andimidna
Apollyon
Aqua Rock X
AquaDork1
Arcadenik
Arteen
Asian_Charizard
Aureola
Aurora Jenny
AustarusIV
AwesomeCauliflower68
Awesomedude444
Backgammon
Balgorxz
BandannaWaddleDee
Bane84
bassem6
Bassoonist
Bingoshi
Bkupa666
Blaziken
BluePikmin11
BoltDragon
BoN~
BridgesWithTurtles
Browny
Buddy002
Bunny8093
BUnit
Burruni
Calane
CactusBlah
candyissweet
Capita
Cap'nChreest
Captain Toad
CardStealer1
Chapter Serf
CheckmateChuck
CheeseBroJoe
Cheezey Bites
Chromfirmed
ChronoPenguin
ClinkStryphart
CliffJumper
cocy965
Coaltergeist
Crap-Zapper
cybersai
Dalek_Kolt
Dendros
Desert Croc
Destroyer713
Dezeray112
Dhragen
Diddy Kong
Dimensionsword64
DivinexRose
DJ3DS
D-Man9293
DoodleDuck97
Doncalot
DraginHikari
Drakonis
Dromader
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Isaac for SSB4!! ^_^

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Last edited 10/25/15

N3ON · Jun 23, 2012

Vote for Isaac!

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Arcadenik · Jun 23, 2012

Pretty sure Matthew is gonna make many Isaac fans butthurt if he gets in instead. :laugh:

I am pretty neutral on the Matthew/Isaac thing since in my eyes, they are pretty much the same.

Katy Parry · Jun 23, 2012

Same here, I'm VERY excited for the inclusion of any characters, and the most likely would be Matthew, since he's the "latest" in the series. But I'd much rather have Issac. He's a perfect fit!

GTA_Hater_331 · Jun 23, 2012

I thought people hated Dark Dawn! Matthew hardly stands a chance at that rate!

Anyways, Isaac should be playable already! Or at least in the 3DS installment, because most of Isaac's games were handheld only. I've wanted him playable since Brawl!

B: Flint Djinn: Leaps upward and crashes to the ground with his sword drawn, cutting enemies and penetrating defences (except Starman)
^B: Wild Growth: Generates vines with propel Isaac upward and deal mild-to-medium damage to enemies caught in the vines.
vB: Quake Psynergy: Shakes the ground for 0.5 seconds with the same range and effect as Melee's Venusaur.
>B: Venus Element: Summons the image of the Venus Djinn to swoop in and attack with bursts of Earth energy.

Final Smash: Titan Blade: Any character above or below him is impaled by a giant falling sword like the Titan Blade in Golden Sun. Any characters who go into the hitting range of the giant sword as it sinks takes almost as much damage.

Opossum · Jun 23, 2012

I honestly expect Isaac over Matthew. Seniority. He's in all the titles so far. I guess you can say he's like Marth: the "face" of the series.

ClinkStryphart · Jun 24, 2012

I really hope Isaac makes it in. And please for the love of god not an assist trophy this time

shinhed-echi · Jun 24, 2012

Opossum said:
I honestly expect Isaac over Matthew. Seniority. He's in all the titles so far. I guess you can say he's like Marth: the "face" of the series.

I second this.

Besides, I heard Dark Dawn didn't do so good... So at best, Mathew could be a sort of costume for Isaac.

I approve of Isaac. He's a great character from a great franchise. Hope he gets in! (PLAYABLE)-

Eagle · Jun 24, 2012

Isaac is definitely my number one most wanted character in this game. Well, so is Banjo Kazooie but we all know that's not gonna happen.. :'(

Anyways, thinking about his moveset;

[COLLAPSE="Moveset"]B: Venus Psynergy - Gaia:
Isaac holds his sword up as long as the button is pressed or until fully charged. When released Isaac unleashes Gaia / Mother Gaia / Grand Gaia depending on how long button was held. Damage and range increases with each rank. Similar to Ike but cannot charge indefinitely.

<B>: Venus Psynergy - Thorns:
Isaac swings his sword and with each swing rapid vines grow from the ground with damaging thorns. The third strike / thorny vine has considerable knock-back.

vB: Venus Psynergy - Odyssey:
Isaac leaps in the air and slams his sword into an opponent summoning a colossal sword from above that slams down and collides with his enemy causing massive damage.

^B: Venus Psynergy - Wild Growth:
Isaac summons a sporadic growth of vines that launch him into the air, and the left behind vines grab and attack nearby enemies.

Grab: Psynery - Move / Carry / Catch:
Note; I say Move / Carry / Catch just because Isaac doesn't actually uses his Psynergy to grab an opponent with the hand, even though he probably could since he also can use "carry" and "catch"
Isaac focuses and his Psynergy hand comes forth from his body and moves and short distance in front of himself to grab an opponent.

Down Throw - Rock Fall: Isaac slams his enemies into the ground with his Psynergy powers and then summons falling rocks that crash down onto them.
Up Throw - Spire: Isaac throws his enemies up into the air and quickly erects a stone spire from beneath them to damage them and launch them higher.
Forward / Back Throw - Ragnarok: Isaac grips his opponent with his Psynergy hand and summons a sword behind him which thrusts into the opponent casting them sideways.

Final Smash: JUDGEMENT
Four Venus Djinn appear next to Isaac and circle him as they float upwards and turn into an Angelic Knight. The Knight, wielding his Lion shield, charges a devastating beam of judgement and crushes the battlefield with his mighty power. Similar to Lucario, but you can't move the beam. However, when the beam hits the battlefield it explodes with an expanding white explosion that consumes everything.[/COLLAPSE]

SombreroJon · Jun 24, 2012

All I want for Christmas is Isaac in the new smash! He has insane moveset potential and would be a PERFECT addition to a smash game in that he adds representation to another franchise AND fits the mold for a smash fighter.

N3ON · Jun 24, 2012

Arcadenik said:
Pretty sure Matthew is gonna make many Isaac fans butthurt if he gets in instead.

I am pretty neutral on the Matthew/Isaac thing since in my eyes, they are pretty much the same.

Personally I am neutral and won't be upset if either Matthew or Isaac is included, since, as you said, they are pretty much just a different outfit. I'm guessing that if one is included, they will have an alternate outfit of the other one anyway.

But I agree with Opossum, I think Isaac is much more likely, requested, and popular, which is why I made the support thread for him. I suppose I could edit it to include Matthew also, since they would pretty much work the exact same way.

Also, I still plan on updating the OP up there with some potential moves, example movesets, and videos, but I'm frustratingly busy right now. Hopefully I'll have them up tomorrow.

Warheart_666 · Jun 24, 2012

Don't know very much about Golden Sun games, but I would really like to see Isaac because he's a different character compared with other ones. He uses earth magic, am I right? I'm always excited to try something new and interesting!

ForwardArrow · Jun 24, 2012

Oh heck yes do I want him in. Golden Sun series is one I have a lot of nostalgia for, and on top of that Isaac seems like an extremely fun character due to his abilities with earth psyenergy. We even got a new Golden Sun game lately, and despite him not being the protagonist that's still a pretty big boost for him.

So yes, I approve of this choice enormously. Partially because unlike some people I actually don't mind more sword users due to them being enjoyable to play as.

Opossum · Jun 24, 2012

To add to that, I haven't played a game in the series yet, but I have seen Gameplay. (I'm trying to find the original online somewhere to buy...) I can actually see Isaac only using his sword for certain moves, while various Psynergy, Djinn, and summons take up a majority. Perhaps the forward smash can be a leaping sword strike?

Either way, I would definitely like to see Isaac.

N3ON · Jun 24, 2012

Opossum said:
To add to that, I haven't played a game in the series yet, but I have seen Gameplay. (I'm trying to find the original online somewhere to buy...) I can actually see Isaac only using his sword for certain moves, while various Psynergy, Djinn, and summons take up a majority. Perhaps the forward smash can be a leaping sword strike?

Either way, I would definitely like to see Isaac.

The original Golden Sun is awesome, and my favorite in the series. Good luck trying to track it down. ^_^
(There is alot of dialogue at the beginning, which deters some people, but once you get past that, it's really fun)
I was personally hoping that it would be one of the GBA Ambassador games. Even though I already own and have played through it a bunch, it would've been great to get other people into GS. Oh well.

As for him using his sword, I definitely agree with you, and in the movesets I'll post later, he mostly just uses his sword as part of his A moves. I believe that the moveset would be the most interesing if he primarily used his Earth psynergy (especially as his specials), and a summon as his FS. I think Isaac (or Matthew) would be the character that could potentially mix magic and swordplay as a moveset better than any other possible newcomer.

Oasis_S · Jun 25, 2012

So he's basically a ground-type Pokemon, right.

Yes please.

N3ON · Jun 25, 2012

^lol pretty much.

I gave the OP a major update and reworked it. I added some movesets and moveset possibilites. I hope the videos will give people an image to go alongside the move, and it will help them visualize Isaac better.

I have one more section to add, but I'll do that tomorrow, I'm really tired now. :laugh:

If anybody has any suggestions on something useful, helpful, or important to add to the OP, please tell me and I'll try to include it.

Johnknight1 · Jun 25, 2012

ethanrodgers223 said:
Same here, I'm VERY excited for the inclusion of any characters, and the most likely would be Matthew, since he's the "latest" in the series. But I'd much rather have Issac. He's a perfect fit!

Exactly. Isaac would bring a brand new "flair" to Smash Bros. Heck, he sort of already did-as an Assist Trophy character!

But yeah, Isaac would be freaking sweet. Psyenergy Earth magic, all kinds of magic moves, and a cool sword. All kinds of moves could be up Isaac's sleeves!

Goldenadept · Jun 26, 2012

i want one of them, any of them SO BAD

Golden Sun has been my all time favorite RPG (and game) since it first came out on the gba and has continued to deliver nonstop fun for the literal dozens of playthroughs i've had since then.

IMO if camelot plans on creating more games in the series and (as has been mentioned before) if the takahashi brothers truly plan on making these next games the "main" meat of the golden sun story then mathew is pretty much the poster child and isaac is the "legendary" hero spoken of in legends.
So mathew would make more sense to be in the next smash

N3ON · Jun 26, 2012

Goldenadept said:
IMO if camelot plans on creating more games in the series and (as has been mentioned before) if the takahashi brothers truly plan on making these next games the "main" meat of the golden sun story then mathew is pretty much the poster child and isaac is the "legendary" hero spoken of in legends.
So mathew would make more sense to be in the next smash

If Matthew is the next protagonist I would agree that he could very well overshadow Isaac as the most likely GS character for Smash, but I wonder if Golden Sun 4 (if it ever actually gets made) will focus on a new protagonist (similar to how The Lost Age had Felix as the primary protagonist), with Matthew perhaps playing a supporting role, similar to Isaac in GS2. If this happens to be the case, I believe that Isaac would still have the greatest chance at Smash, but it's just a theory.

Currently I still believe that Isaac is similar to being the Marth of his series, the original protagonist the remains the most popular even with newer games. However, if Matthew starts starring in multiple new Golden Suns (even though they probably wouldn't come out until after SSB4), and they start reaching the critical and commercial success of the first two (which granted, might not be that important to Sakurai), then I could definitely get behind him being the most likely choice.

JPW · Jun 26, 2012

I want Alex the most. Forget Isaac. Actually i wouldn't mind Isaac, though when it came to GS heroes i was more of a fan of Felix.

I should make a thread for them.

I can live with Isaac his assist trophy does make him kind of cool. That Hand has helped me win so many times.
He's the most likely choice and i guess that's why i'm on the bandwagon. THat and i love Golden Sun too.

I believe Camelot are working on the next one now that they've finished Mario Tennis. Unless they do a Mario Golf. Which i want more than Tennis but not more than a new Golden Sun.

RhymesWithEmpty · Jun 26, 2012

I'm in full support of Isaac, the Golden Sun games are some of my absolute favorites. Actually, I'd even be fine with Matthew getting in over Isaac, despite Dark Dawn being a bit disappointing in comparison with the first two games. It's hard to say who's more likely, though... part of me feels like Isaac missed his chance with Brawl, and that it would only make sense to give Matthew the spotlight if he is going to be the main hero from here on out... but it's hard to deny Isaac's popularity. My ultimate fanboy wish would be to give them both the boot and give the playable character status to Felix, but any sane person knows that'll never happen

So, yeah, as long as Golden Sun gets a rep, I will be plenty satisfied. I'm very worried about how likely that actually is, though. Here's hoping!

edit: @JPW - Awe yeah, Felix solidarity! And Alex is cool too, of course, heh.

Opossum · Jun 28, 2012

I imagined as an Up B, perhaps Lift? I know you use it to lift boulders and things, but wouldn't it be cool if a giant hand grabbed Isaac and carried him upwards? Just an idea.

Roy-Kun · Jun 28, 2012

Oasis_S said:
So he's basically a ground-type Pokemon, right.

Yes please.

Don't make fun of ground-type Pokemon, man. They rule.

And YES TO ALL. But personally, between the father or the son, I'd pick the latter. They're basically the same, and for some reason, I like Matthew more. Maybe is it because of his clothes?

FlareHabanero · Jun 28, 2012

I could see Issac having Matthew's attire as an alternative costume. Their structurally similar right down to stats, so it's not too far off.

Roy-Kun · Jun 28, 2012

Habanero said:
I could see Issac having Matthew's attire as an alternative costume. Their structurally similar right down to stats, so it's not too far off.

Hmm. That's a good one, but still for some reason, I'd prefer Matthew more. Sorry, I really don't know why. If anything, it'd be the inverse regarding the clothes to me at least.

Considering the gameplay in the Golden Sun series, I wonder if Isaac/Matthew would end up with a tricky moveset if they add the Djinni factor into their moveset...?

N3ON · Jun 28, 2012

Roy-Kun said:
Hmm. That's a good one, but still for some reason, I'd prefer Matthew more. Sorry, I really don't know why. If anything, it'd be the inverse regarding the clothes to me at least.

Considering the gameplay in the Golden Sun series, I wonder if Isaac/Matthew would end up with a tricky moveset if they add the Djinni factor into their moveset...?

Whether the rep is Isaac or Matthew, I'm sure we'd get an alternate outfit of the other one (as said above). Even if we didn't, personally I wouldn't much care which one we got, they would both most likely have the same moveset and possibilities.

As for the djinn, I think if they use them in the same way they are used in the Golden Sun games, it will create a very complex moveset, one I think they will try to avoid, and isn't all that likely. Djinn in general I find unlikely to be incorporated into the moveset (apart from possibly a taunt or something), but if they were, it would probably be as either some sort of special or as an extra effect. I would love if they remained true to how they were used in GS and there was possibly a special that let you change djinn, which would alter another attack depending on what djinn it was (or something to that extent), but personally I think Isaac/Matthew has enough to work with otherwise so that djinn won't be included (as to not overly-complicate the moveset, which I'm guessing the developers would choose).

RhymesWithEmpty · Jun 28, 2012

If their FS was a summon, and the djinn made a cameo then, I'd be plenty satisfied with that. Incorporating djinn into their actual movesets seems like it would get messy pretty easily.

I kind of have to agree with you when it comes to Isaac vs Matthew, Roy-Kun. It's stupid, but I like Matthew's outfit more, and this probably doesn't hold any bearing at all, but comparing it to Isaac's more classic armor makes me think he would be a bit more agile, which would suit my play-style more

Still, I'd be ecstatic over the inclusion of either one of them.

Oasis_S · Jun 29, 2012

Roy-Kun said:
Don't make fun of ground-type Pokemon, man. They rule.

I mean, I know we're on the same page here, but to say that saying Isaac is like a ground-type Pokemon is to make fun of ground-types, wouldn't you be saying that Isaac himself is the insult.

JPW · Jun 29, 2012

all this GS talk is making me want to do another marathon.

If only i didn't have so many other games to finish first.

fogbadge · Jun 30, 2012

id be happy with any golden sun character

though i'll admit id prefer matthew

Katy Parry · Jun 30, 2012

I'm pretty sure since he was an assist trophy, that basically confirms Golden Sun being represented in SOME form again - the series has been recognized.

Frostwraith · Jun 30, 2012

he could perfectly represent the more recent Nintendo series. and a character that combines magic with swordmanship is always welcome. oh, and both Isaac and Matthew could be different characters moveset-wise, hope you are aware of that, even though they will likely put only one of them as a representant of the series.

Disfunkshunal · Jul 4, 2012

^^^ if we got both with completely different movesets, I'd be ecstatic.

I was under the impression that this thread would get regular updates but I come in only to find that the last update was close to a week ago. ♪someone's slacking♪ =P.

It seems the general consensus of this thread is that Isaac/Matthew would make a great addition to the next smash, which is awesome!

Even though Isaac>Matthew I'll accept all you golden sun fans.

As primary head leading super Mercury adept in charge plus!, I feel it's my duty to assist with the betterment of this thread. Right now I guess that would mean bringing this thread back to life and suggesting ideas for the OP. N3ON already told me a few ideas for the OP like a section on chances and a pro/con list but I'd also like to see a section dedicated to counter arguments. One of the more common arguments of smash not needing another sword user are attacked with the big list of psynergy but arguments like other small franchises like S&P/Starfy would make better reps are ignored. Something else you might consider is putting sales up there somewhere but I dunno.

On the reviving tip, maybe we could share some of our favorite stories/experiences from the game. Or maybe some of y'all out there have some fan art?

Ummmm that's all I got for now. I had more but got 502'd so it's whatever now.

Bring. Up. My. Post.

Eagle · Jul 4, 2012

disfunkshunal said:
^^^ if we got both with completely different movesets, I'd be ecstatic.

I was under the impression that this thread would get regular updates but I come in only to find that the last update was close to a week ago. ♪someone's slacking♪ =P.

It seems the general consensus of this thread is that Isaac/Matthew would make a great addition to the next smash, which is awesome! Even though Isaac>Matthew I'll accept all you golden sun fans.

As primary head leading super Mercury adept in charge plus!, I feel it's my duty to assist with the betterment of this thread. Right now I guess that would mean bringing this thread back to life and suggesting ideas for the OP. N3ON already told me a few ideas for the OP like a section on chances and a pro/con list but I'd also like to see a section dedicated to counter arguments. One of the more common arguments of smash not needing another sword user are attacked with the big list of psynergy but arguments like other small franchises like S&P/Starfy would make better reps are ignored. Something else you might consider is putting sales up there somewhere but I dunno.

On the reviving tip, maybe we could share some of our favorite stories/experiences from the game. Or maybe some of y'all out there have some fan art?

Ummmm that's all I got for now. I had more but got 502'd so it's whatever now.

Bring. Up. My. Post.

Oh man, I'd be so happy if both Isaac and Matthew made it in with different movesets. There was an article recently or whatever saying that Sakurai wanted to focus more on the characters than increasing the roster so I doubt the chances of both Isaac and Matthew making it...

One of my favorite parts of Golden Sun, apart from the entire game of course, is when you're in the Arena and you race to the center and fight the Gladiators. I don't know why, it was something I always looked forward to in each playthrough.

Also.. I see some people wanting Felix in over Isaac, and even Alex to represent the villain.. but come on! It's Isaac / Matthew or it's nothin'!

JPW · Jul 4, 2012

I know Alex is a longshot. But come on wouldn't it be cool.

I know it's either going to be Isaac or Matthew, and even if it's Isaac there's a chance of a Felix Shade. Isaac and Felix would be identical in almost every way.

Also everyone's talking Isaac having his "Move" psynergy as a move. What about "Force". Imagining having a fist flying from one side to the other.
(oops wait a sec, Force was Felix's one right?)
Still a "Force" psynergy would be cool.

btw i love all GS games. I just wish Dark Dawn didn't end when it did. I so wasn't ready for an ending. I wanted to find out what happens next.

also i'm curious would Matthew of still been considered for Smash if he did indeed end his life when he sacrificed himself. For those who don't know at the end of DD Matthew was actually sacrificing himself and Svetta to save the world. But as i recall something made them both miraculously survive.

N3ON · Jul 5, 2012

JPW said:
I know it's either going to be Isaac or Matthew, and even if it's Isaac there's a chance of a Felix Shade. Isaac and Felix would be identical in almost every way.

I'm betting that if either Isaac or Matthew get in, one of their alternate color schemes will be of Felix. Plus if Isaac/Matthew get in and don't have the Move psynergy as one of their attacks, Felix might very well become the replacement AT. Or of course it might also be either Isaac or Matthew (whichever didn't get in).

JPW said:
Also everyone's talking Isaac having his "Move" psynergy as a move. What about "Force". Imagining having a fist flying from one side to the other.
(oops wait a sec, Force was Felix's one right?)
Still a "Force" psynergy would be cool.

Force would definitely be cool, and honestly I kinda forgot about it. But it's not exclusive to Felix, so Isaac could use it too.

JPW said:
btw i love all GS games. I just wish Dark Dawn didn't end when it did. I so wasn't ready for an ending. I wanted to find out what happens next.

also i'm curious would Matthew of still been considered for Smash if he did indeed end his life when he sacrificed himself. For those who don't know at the end of DD Matthew was actually sacrificing himself and Svetta to save the world. But as i recall something made them both miraculously survive.

Yeah, it's kind of frustrating when the GS games end in a cliffhanger (which two already have), and ever more frustrating not knowing if/when we'll get another. At least with the first GS cliffhanger, they were already developing GS2.

And while Matthew and Sveta were planning to sacrifice themselves, Volechek stepped in and he was sacrificed instead. All the playable characters in DD are still alive at the end of the game, so Matthew will still probably show up in possible future games, and could still be considered for Smash.

MelMoe · Jul 5, 2012

Golden Sun is awesome. I want Isaac. That is all.

Frostwraith · Jul 5, 2012

N3ON said:
I'm betting that if either Isaac or Matthew get in, one of their alternate color schemes will be of Felix. Plus if Isaac/Matthew get in and don't have the Move psynergy as one of their attacks, Felix might very well become the replacement AT. Or of course it might also be either Isaac or Matthew (whichever didn't get in).

Force would definitely be cool, and honestly I kinda forgot about it. But it's not exclusive to Felix, so Isaac could use it too.

Yeah, it's kind of frustrating when the GS games end in a cliffhanger (which two already have), and ever more frustrating not knowing if/when we'll get another. At least with the first GS cliffhanger, they were already developing GS2.

And while Matthew and Sveta were planning to sacrifice themselves, Volechek stepped in and he was sacrificed instead. All the playable characters in DD are still alive at the end of the game, so Matthew will still probably show up in possible future games, and could still be considered for Smash.

as far as my knowledge goes... Grey Fox from Metal Gear Solid also appears in Brawl, even though he also died in MGS... so, I don't think that character death is an excuse for being excluded from the roster.

I even read some crazy theory about the characters and worlds in Smash being akin to the myth of Valhalla in Nordic mythology, which is where warriors go after death and they can continue their fighting lives without fear of death, since they are well... dead.

N3ON · Jul 5, 2012

Frostwraith said:
as far as my knowledge goes... Grey Fox from Metal Gear Solid also appears in Brawl, even though he also died in MGS... so, I don't think that character death is an excuse for being excluded from the roster.

I even read some crazy theory about the characters and worlds in Smash being akin to the myth of Valhalla in Nordic mythology, which is where warriors go after death and they can continue their fighting lives without fear of death, since they are well... dead.

Yes, you're right. I worded it poorly, I meant that

Matthew isn't dead, so it wouldn't effect him appearing in future Golden Suns, which would then increase his chances of appearing in Smash. I didn't mean that since he isn't dead, he can still appear in Smash.

Canon status in respective series, whether dead or alive, has no bearing on Smash inclusion. My bad, I should've said it better.

Also that's a pretty sombre theory if you really think about it. All these iconic seemingly "immortal" (for the most part) and ageless characters you're playing as are actually dead, and are fighting in the afterlife. I've heard that theory before though. I choose not to think too hard about the "logic" behind the world of Smash, it usually just hurts my head. :laugh:

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