Is Smash 4 already dying competitively?

[JustSomeScrub]

I don't play the game, former competitive Brawl player though and moved on to Melee/PM. Anyway I just don't see any real hype for this game currently. Majors don't seem to happen very often for Smash 4 whereas you see one for Melee every other week. I don't know if it's just streamers not traveling to events as much or the community just not being that strong. Stream viewers in general for Smash 4 seem quite low.

Also this game has too much of a been there done that vibe imo. Top Brawl players are dominating using Brawl tactics, it's basically just Brawl with new characters and slight mechanic/balance tweaks.

Lastly I still believe there is a major stigma attached to Smash 4 whereas a lot simply don't consider it a serious competitive game. Just look at sponsors, Melee players have all the major Esports ones, most top Smash 4 players are not sponsored at all or have far smaller ones.

Edit:

And please stop bringing up Evo numbers. Those are mostly casual players that aren't actually part of the competitive community and Smash 4 is far from the focus at Evo. For instance, if there was a Nintendo fan expo with thousands of attendees and they hosted a side Smash tournament, it might get a ton of entrants but that of course is not an indication of the actual core competitive community.

 

[ZephyrZ]

If the heavily critisized Brawl tournament scene is still alive, I have no doubt that the Smash 4 tournament scene will survive.

It may be somewhat comparable to Brawl, but it also has fixed many of Brawl's problems as well.
And of course, its metagame is still developing. The farther we go in, the more different from Brawl it may become.

 

[|RK|]

The numbers for EVO are almost equal, IIRC. I feel like people are quick to proclaim death because they want it to die. Don't worry; Smash 4 is trucking on and growing.

 

[Kurri ★]

It's totally dying

https://twitter.com/Pond3r/status/597885126916251649

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Evo numbers don't mean much. For starters it only got in because of Nintendo being a sponsor, not because of any community effort like Melee. Also it may have tons of entrants but we all know those are largely just casual players entering for the fun of it while their focus is the other fighters at the event, not tournament threats or at least regulars outside of Evo that would help the community grow.

Smash 4 needs to show it can stand on its own two feet. Heck I remember a ton of Brawl focused majors where believe it or not Melee was the game taking the backseat. There was a point where it was in fact more popular than Melee (did you know Brawl used to be the main event at Apex? It was like this until 2014 and it would get more viewers than Melee). But now it just seems like Smash 4 is just a side event that no one really respects or takes seriously.

Doom even made a post a while back commenting on this matter, how players in the Smash 4 community feel less important because they don't play Melee. Even on this board, I've seen tons of references to Melee/Melee players and even when someone is referring to Brawl, when they need an example they choose a Melee player.

 

[|RK|]

Evo numbers don't mean much. For starters it only got in because of Nintendo being a sponsor, not because of any community effort like Melee. Also it may have tons of entrants but we all know those are just casual players entering for the fun of it while their focus is the other fighters at the event, not tournament threats or at least regulars outside of Evo that would help the community grow.

Smash 4 needs to show it can stand on its own two feet. Heck I remember a ton of Brawl focused majors where believe it or not Melee was the game taking the backseat. There was a point where it was in fact more popular than Melee. But now it just seems like Smash 4 is just a side event that no one really respects or takes seriously.

Doom even made a post a while back commenting on this matter, how players in the Smash 4 community feel less important because they don't play Melee. Even on this board, I've seen tons of references to Melee/Melee players and even when someone is referring to Brawl, when they need an example they choose a Melee player.

Well EVO numbers are an objective metric. I can assume that many people entering EVO for Melee are casuals for no reason. Smash 4 has been standing on its own feet and rather well. The scene hasn't even been around for a year, man.

In addition, you have to take into account that Brawl came directly after Melee. I believe that Brawl's failure to take the competitive scene by storm is part of the reason for Melee's current success.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Well EVO numbers are an objective metric. I can assume that many people entering EVO for Melee are casuals for no reason. Smash 4 has been standing on its own feet and rather well. The scene hasn't even been around for a year, man.

In addition, you have to take into account that Brawl came directly after Melee. I believe that Brawl's failure to take the competitive scene by storm is part of the reason for Melee's current success.

Evo numbers are inflated because of tons of casuals Smash players from the FGC entering both Smash games that normally would never enter or attend Smash majors yes. That's why it's not a good indicator. That's not to say it doesn't also have most of the best players for each, but they are far from the majority.

And how exactly has Smash 4 been standing on its own two feet? If it has then name me some super majors with the focus on Smash 4 with tons of top players in attendance since Apex that created hype and buzz. Because I honestly cannot think of any. I remember the 16 main invitational, then Apex and then...I'm drawing a blank.

 

[Kurri ★]

Evo numbers don't mean much. For starters it only got in because of Nintendo being a sponsor, not because of any community effort like Melee.

You mean like every other new fighter that got into EVO? Like Tekken 7 which hasn't been released yet outside of arcades in Japan; EVO is gonna be like a giant demo for people in the US. MKX, as popular as it is, definitely got in due to sponsors. Arcsys got both Persona 4 Ultimax and Guilty Gear XRD, one of them was definitely due to sponsors. And let's not forget about Killer Instinct. The only games there not for sponsors is Melee, UMvC3 and USFIV.

Evo numbers are inflated because of tons of casuals Smash players from the FGC entering both Smash games that normally would never enter or attend Smash majors yes.

If you're gonna make a claim, back it up.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You mean like every other new fighter that got into EVO? Like Tekken 7 which hasn't been released yet outside of arcades in Japan; EVO is gonna be like a giant demo for people in the US. MKX, as popular as it is, definitely got in due to sponsors. Arcsys got both Persona 4 Ultimax and Guilty Gear XRD, one of them was definitely due to sponsors. And let's not forget about Killer Instinct. The only games there not for sponsors is Melee, UMvC3 and USFIV.

Exactly my point. Which is why Evo is not a good indicator of how strong a community actually is.

Melee even before it got into Evo as well as Brawl had more entrants at their majors and far more stream viewers than a lot of fighters that are Evo regulars such as MK. Again I'm not talking about sponsored company ran tournaments, but rather the ones that are community driven.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Also it may have tons of entrants but we all know those are largely just casual players entering for the fun of it while their focus is the other fighters at the event, not tournament threats or at least regulars outside of Evo that would help the community grow.

And you know this how?....

 

[|RK|]

Evo numbers are inflated because of tons of casuals Smash players from the FGC entering both Smash games that normally would never enter or attend Smash majors yes. That's why it's not a good indicator. That's not to say it doesn't also have most of the best players for each, but they are far from the majority.

And how exactly has Smash 4 been standing on its own two feet? If it has then name me some super majors with the focus on Smash 4 with tons of top players in attendance since Apex that created hype and buzz. Because I honestly cannot think of any. I remember the 16 main invitational, then Apex and then...I'm drawing a blank.

Okay, it has actually been six months, man. The representation for the tournaments that we do have is trending upwards. Nothing you have said displays any downwards trend.

Plus, you keep qualifying your comments on EVO numbers with stuff pulled from nowhere.

 

[Kurri ★]

Alright, fine. Would this help?
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_national_tournaments#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U

Ooh, looks like Project M is dying, it has less tournaments than Smash 4.
(Yes I know the wiki isn't the best indicator, but it's something)

 

[JustSomeScrub]

And you know this how?....

Because it's primarily a traditional fighting game tournament and because of the recent Smash media buzz, it has sparked the interest of the FGC in the sense that a lot are will to at least try out Smash. Not seriously enough to go to Smash only events but more like "I'm already here for SF/Marvel/KOF/Tekken ah what the heck I'll enter Smash why not".

If you don't believe me, simply wait until the very next Smash 4 major after Evo where the focus is actually Smash 4. I can guarantee it will get far less entrants. And that'll be the proof you desire.

 

[Shaya]

Okay.
What purpose does this thread have? What benefit will come from it?

You're spewing an idea that has no basis in logic, let alone in proof in relation to Evo. It's coming into Summer for the first year of the game and it will undoubtedly be very large throughout this time, if this is not the case then it would be considerate to evaluate how/why this would be so. All I'm aware of is scene numbers and frequency of tournaments being larger than it ever has been. I think there may be some issues dividing the scene with rulesets (as always) and the way we get media / content out there (specific streams always attracting thousands of viewers while those of similar quality but less prominence struggle).

A purpose of trying to improve things is not your attitude here. There is a significant lack of effort on your part to bring a well structured discussion to a section with quality control for such things.