Is lucas better than Ness?

[Mr.Pikachu]

I'm starting to play as Ness and lucas a little and they have similiar attacks but there side B have different properties and there neutral B are different. Lucas can meteor smash with his Dair and Bair. So Ness can meteor smash as well with his Dair. While they may have a bunch of similarities they are different. They can't be equal so which one is better. Lucas or Ness?

 

[Lukingordex]

According to the Tier List,Ness is better.

I also do believe Ness is a little better,but Lucas does better in some MUs than Ness,like Falco or Wolf.

 

[Jamwa]

I'm starting to play as Ness and lucas a little and they have similiar attacks but there side B have different properties and there neutral B are different. Lucas can meteor smash with his Dair and Bair. So Ness can meteor smash as well with his Dair. While they may have a bunch of similarities they are different. They can't be equal so which one is better. Lucas or Ness?

Lucas' down air is a semi spike, not a meteor (it doesn't spike at low %'s)

Lucas is a lot harder to play, considering the amount of techniques you have to learn to make him viable. Lucas is also a lot more shield pressure focused, as he cannot use ground/grab game.

 

[Lukingordex]

he cannot use ground/grab game.

uhh

Isn`t his Ftilt useful in some occasional situations?
And his Pivot Grab is definitely useful for reads imo.

Since i don`t play brawl Lucas anymore (he`s my P:M main now) I may be wrong,but saying his ground/grab game isn`t usable is a doubtful argument imo.

 

[Jamwa]

What's your point? That Lucas does have a ground game, no matter how insignificant? well sure, but its still under average...

ftilt is used primarily as a follow up from an aerial, like dair or fair, so it's not considered ground game in that sense....

Grabs are horrible, and you should only get grabs because you've conditioned your opponent to shield and you're sure he's going to shield.
Pivot grabs are an entirely different situation, because anyone can pivot grab if they read it correctly. Lucas doesn't really have an advantage for his pivot grab as someone like fox or pikachu or falco or olimar would....

 

[Luco]

I suppose that's up to who you ask. American tier list would tell you Ness is better, supported by the likes of FOW, Yink and, nowadays, Shaky. Japanese tier list would tell you Lucas is much better, supported by the likes of Hyutter and quite a few other top Lucas mains up there (sorry I'm Aus. so Japan is 'up there' for me ).

If you asked me personally, i'd tell you that from my limited experience, they're not far apart and either could be ahead. Ness has a fantastic air game, some great OoS options and a solid grab game. However his tilts are used only in rare situations and his Fsmash and Dsmash are usually just asking for trouble, whereas his Usmash is useful in some situations but doesn't kill for freakin' ages haha. He also finds it so much harder to get back onstage than like 80% of the cast lawl.

On the other hand, Lucas' grab game is not that great, only really useful in some MUs like Oli (kind of) and maybe snake if you're trying to get combos on him at low percents when he's coming down from the air (which unfortunately is illogical because Snake is a ground-based character and shouldn't really be leaving it for many other reasons than he got hit away from it.... =/) and although he has an aerial tether, it actually puts him in a more compromising position than without (when he first tethers he gets hitboxes all throughout the snake ((?)) and just above the snake, he might as well be Pikachu using QAC -_- ) arguably.

He also suffers from laggy smashes which are only really useful for surprise attacks and catching landings and the one that works fast can be predicted (Fsmash) really easily.

HOWEVER, his aerial game is also fantastic (and under-rated IMO, his Fair actually beats Ness' in terms of range even though it has to actually be timed iirc), and he has some legitimate locks and combos. His tilt game is fine IMO with the exception of Utilt which is only really used for that little grab combo at 0-5% and his recovery is actually pretty fantastic, up there with ROB's. His PK fire is more practical than Ness' (although Ness gets a better deal out of a PK fire, he finds it far riskier than Lucas to actually go ahead and use one and if it's PS-ed he's a sitting duck with approximately 20-30 frames of ending lag), going horizontal in the air means he can use it in short hops effectively and finds it easier to time it when both chars are in the air. He can also wavebounce with it, making retreating SH PKFs totally legit and retreating aerially so much fun (PKF ---> Magnet pull is the best AT evar! ).

Both chars suffer from GR shenanigans and Marth characters that King Dedede outrange them but in the end I reckon they're both solid mid tiers with the potential to be right next to each other, with places interchangeable.

So yeah, that's my 50 2 cents.

 

[Jamwa]

and although he has an aerial tether, it actually puts him in a more compromising position than without (when he first tethers he gets hitboxes all throughout the snake ((?)) and just above the snake, he might as well be Pikachu using QAC -_-

Yo Luco, read my post in the General Discussion, I found out a way to make Lucas snap to the ledge rather than peek his head over the ledge when recovering. It's also a safe tool to use up your three tether ledge grabs so you can easily duster-slide.

 

[Luco]

I never found dustersliding all that amazing personally but eh it could just be me.

However tethering without those hitboxes sounds so incredible, I have to see this! :D

 

[Jamwa]

I never found dustersliding all that amazing personally but eh it could just be me.

However tethering without those hitboxes sounds so incredible, I have to see this! :D

Dustersliding is a great mixup. People wait to shield your aerial, but what if you get up and instantly grab? the opponent that was waiting to punish you with an OoS option on your laggy aerial now has to worry about grabs.

Many Olimars and ESAM integrate that instant ledge cancel into their gameplay (both use up-b at that weird angle to cancel landing lag)

Also with dustersliding you cna punish Lucario pretty hard after their recov with an instant usmash :]

It's just really hard to do so i dont use it as often as i'd like to

 

[O1DsLeNdYwHiTe]

I'm starting to play as Ness and lucas a little and they have similiar attacks but there side B have different properties and there neutral B are different. Lucas can meteor smash with his Dair and Bair. So Ness can meteor smash as well with his Dair. While they may have a bunch of similarities they are different. They can't be equal so which one is better. Lucas or Ness?

I think in a combo sense of play, Lucas might slightly outdo Ness. Not to mention, Lucas has more efficient techs than Ness does, and possesses more mobility. However, I believe Ness wracks up more damage and gets the kills faster than Lucas does. Not to mention, that D-air meteor smash is just so devastating. I personally would go for Ness any day, but quite frankly, they have so many tools do out-do each other on the battlefield, it's hard to decide who's truly better.

 

[Seraphim.]

Lucas.

He can't get gimped as easily as Ness can, Has better recovery options, and smash attacks.

Ness beats him in terms of aerials imo and racking up damage quickly, but Lucas can have some good combos himself, I find Lucas' PKFire, PSI Magnet, PKThunder better than Ness'.

 

[yoshi8984]

I thought of it as Lucas has a great Ground game (except for his laggy grab but at least his throws can kill) but sub-par air game, while Ness has the opposite. XP

I'll give my full thoughts later on though when I can lol

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

Thanks guys! I've also been wondering if you can actually land Ness's special B it's so laggy after using it and mist of the time people just airdodge it.

 

[Jamwa]

Thanks guys! I've also been wondering if you can actually land Ness's special B it's so laggy after using it and mist of the time people just airdodge it.

An uncharged PK Flash is very good against MK's tornado if you see it coming. Just press the b button, and if you did it quickly enough, the nado will cancel and i think you can uair or nair MK out of it.

Other than that it's good for reading airdodges in some situations, as it has low knockback when its uncharged and it puts them in an awkward situation.

 

[pidgezero_one]

If I can see nado coming I just fair him out of it

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

You can do that?

 

[Mizuxe]

I feel like Lucas is superior but that just be my biased opinion because I used to smash all my friends with Lucas until I started using Olimar since he was more of a secondary character for me until I started playing with him more. I feel like Ness handles a little bit more differently than Lucas does as if Ness is a little more sturdy of a character. Some people like that, but I love when I have a character that is quick and light with their attacks. It's all in the preference of the character when it comes down to it eventually other than small differences in attacks. The characters are indeed very similar as OP said.

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

I'm using ness a lot more mostly cause I feel like I can get quicker and faster kills, but lucas is really fun to use so I use them alot.

 

[PKBeam]

It depends what country you're in . I would move to Japan but...

 

[Deleted member]

Both characters are good, it depends on how you play. Do you like Ness's PK Fire that traps your opponnent or do you like Lucas's PK Fire that can be used for spacing and momentum.

 

[PKBeam]

Both characters are good, it depends on how you play. Do you like Ness's PK Fire that traps your opponnent or do you like Lucas's PK Fire that can be used for spacing and momentum.

If Ness mains had our PK Fire their recovery would be almost as good as ours.
So ours is better

 

[Luco]

Thanks guys! I've also been wondering if you can actually land Ness's special B it's so laggy after using it and mist of the time people just airdodge it.

Unless you get god reads like I did (I totally wasn't PANICKING)!

But i've linked that video enough times since then so yeah

 

[Fools Requiem]

I don't care what any Tier list states, Lucas is the better of the two. Lucas' Up B move not dying on contact like Ness' makes it better for recovery. Not to mention all of his specials are faster and give Lucas a nice boost mid-air. Aerials are better than Ness' too. If you put a good Ness player against a good Lucas player, Lucas is going to win a majority of the time.

 

[PKBeam]

I don't care what any Tier list states, Lucas is the better of the two. Lucas' Up B move not dying on contact like Ness' makes it better for recovery. Not to mention all of his specials are faster and give Lucas a nice boost mid-air. Aerials are better than Ness' too. If you put a good Ness player against a good Lucas player, Lucas is going to win a majority of the time.

wut?

If you put a good Ness player against a good Lucas player, Lucas is going to win a majority of the time.

If our grab was like 2 frames faster then maybe

 

[Luco]

Ness has the better aerials overall, but Lucas wins out above and beyond in terms of shield pressure, which means if he has Ness on the defensive it suddenly swings to his favour.

Also Lucas' Fair actually outranges Ness', it just has to be timed. Haven't tested it in a while but i'm reasonably sure that's right.

Still, Ness' wall is very seriously legitimate and a good Ness player is one who knows when and how to keep you out and when and how to manage up close battles. Even with the better pressure game, Ness is a serious contender. For a very long time i've suspected this MU was actually closer to a 0 than a -1/+1 but Yink always told me Ness won out due to aerial spacing and the OoS Nair among other stuff so i've never really gone around shouting that opinion from the rooftops.

 

[PKBeam]

Ness has the better aerials overall, but Lucas wins out above and beyond in terms of shield pressure, which means if he has Ness on the defensive it suddenly swings to his favour.

Also Lucas' Fair actually outranges Ness', it just has to be timed. Haven't tested it in a while but i'm reasonably sure that's right.
Wait, like... it does when both are used without one retreating or one advancing? Because when you're halfway during Lucas' retreating Fair, it's much more disjointed than at the start of it.

Still, Ness' wall is very seriously legitimate and a good Ness player is one who knows when and how to keep you out and when and how to manage up close battles. Even with the better pressure game, Ness is a serious contender. For a very long time i've suspected this MU was actually closer to a 0 than a -1/+1 but Yink always told me Ness won out due to aerial spacing and the OoS Nair among other stuff

so i've never really gone around shouting that opinion from the rooftops.
You can ask Mekos for his opinion...

 

[Luco]

Doesn't need to be retreating to beat it iirc. I'd have to go through the frame data but I know that on a regular basis, if ness and Lucas are coming together and Lucas times it well enough (which isn't too difficult), his sourspot will hit Ness before Ness hits him.

 

[PKBeam]

Never got a chance to find that out. I just shoot a PKF at Fairs.

 

[Luco]

Never got a chance to find that out. I just shoot a PKF at Fairs.

That's very legitimate if he's using SHFair. I just mean in aerial situations or offstage. The other thing is Ness' Fair has a large vertical range too, so if Lucas is coming down diagonally and Ness is rising towards him Ness should beat Lucas out with his Fair.

It's purely on a horizontal level that Lucas wins out iirc.

 

[PKBeam]

That's very legitimate if he's using SHFair. I just mean in aerial situations or offstage. The other thing is Ness' Fair has a large vertical range too, so if Lucas is coming down diagonally and Ness is rising towards him Ness should beat Lucas out with his Fair.

It's purely on a horizontal level that Lucas wins out iirc.

If he does a FH Fair i just do a FH retreating PKF. lel.
Yeah Lucas' Fair doesn't have the renewing hitboxes like Ness' does.

 

[Luco]

If he does a FH Fair i just do a FH retreating PKF. lel.
Yeah Lucas' Fair doesn't have the renewing hitboxes like Ness' does.

Yeah but FH PKF has to be used in a read situation or it can be an awkward move because it allows the person to come straight at you without consequence or having to shield and that means you can essentially be punished.

If the Ness knows what he's doing, our reflexes just aren't fast enough to punish him doing a FH Fair before he FFs to the ground. SH is a much better option for most moves because it covers the ground as well as the air.

 

[PKBeam]

guess i havent thought about that.
Need to play more good Nesses.

 

[Luco]

guess i havent thought about that.
Need to play more good Nesses.

If NSW has a tournament i'll be happy to play some matches with you. I co-main Lucas and Ness, though recently my Lucas has been excelling further.

 

[PKBeam]

If NSW has a tournament i'll be happy to play some matches with you. I co-main Lucas and Ness, though recently my Lucas has been excelling further.

Do you have a homebrew Wii? You can access custom Wi-Fi servers that way.

 

[Luco]

Do you have a homebrew Wii? You can access custom Wi-Fi servers that way.

We did have an SD card with homebrew on it but when we got Donkey Kong Country Returns it updated the wii and told us if it found any illicit software it'd basically brick the wii, so we haven't put it in since. Not sure if it's safe to do that now though.

 

[PKBeam]

If your version is 4.3(e) then it should be safe to do so. I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as 4.4 atm.

after looking at this thread here
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1604104
I think it meant that it'd remove the Homebrew.

I think what might have happened was that you weren't checking for updates, so when a new game came out, it forced you to update to the latest system version.
Assuming that the DKCR update was an update to 4.3e, then just install homebrew for 4.3e

 

[Forever 9]

I say Lucas (just because he's my main Brawl player).
But I could KO people a little faster with Ness.

 

[rockchalk596]

In my opinion Lucas is better... just slightly though. Lucas has a better Up B, with it not killing him when he tries to recover like Ness' does when it hits a character. Ness' SideB is better with it trapping the opponent. Lucas' smash attacks are better with them killing faster. USmash is laggy though. Who cares what the tier list says, Lucas is better. His grab is very laggy though if it doesn't grab someone.

 

[PKBeam]

you bumped a 7 month old post to say this...?