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In the event that the upcoming patch doesn't bring any significant changes.

Duet

Smash Cadet
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Nov 25, 2014
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requiemlacrimosa
Before I even begin, if you are one of those people who are still delusional and thinks they are going to show the world that Lucina isn't bad, this isn't the topic for you.

With that being said, I am looking for some people to look past their character pride and give replays/footage/feedback on the issues Lucina faces that causes her to be widely considered as one of the worst characters in the game. Similar to the Samus video, I would like to have a short 3-4 minute goofy video showing off crap we have to deal with in a funny manner, while still demonstrating to the world what people who main this character have to go through while playing her, and why she is widely considered to be among the bottom 5-10 characters in the game.


I have wanted to do this for awhile, even before the Samus video came out, but out of laziness I never really took the time to investigate the "Why the hell did that just happen" moments that have happened to me. Last night however, I reached my boiling point while playing with a friend trying to get him to help me snap out of a few days of playing poorly. I will just let this video that I threw together explain what happened during one our matches.




Off the top of my head, the things I would like to show off are her hurtbox extension from many of her attacks, deadzones on her attacks, characters falling out of, and punishing dancing blade combos, and her terrible dair spike hitbox.

Frame data in general I feel would be pretty hard to demonstrate, but if anyone has any ideas or knows anyone that would be down to do this spread the word or let me know on here or in a PM. You can also add me on skype @ Starlitduets. I have a capture card, but I don't really have any experience editing videos, so that would all be a bit new to me, but I think I can make it work.
 
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Buffoon

Smash Ace
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(I want to learn how to do that sliding Shield Breaker.)

Based off the video you've shown, is it fair to assume that Sheik's F-Air constantly trumps Marth/Lucina's F-Air not just because Sheik's move is faster, but because Marth/Lucina's swords act as hurtboxes?

Does any other swordsmen have this problem in Sm4sh?
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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Nov 25, 2014
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requiemlacrimosa
Sheiks Fair being tricky is simply due to the fact that it comes out faster than pretty much any other aerial in the game. Outside of the fact that Lucina and Marth's fair hit box doesn't quite match the animation, and the aerials have stupid amounts of end lag on them, there isn't really anything else wrong with them. (I am not really clumping dair in with this, because that move is so incredibly bad on every level that the only reasonable explanation as to why it could be so bad is that Sakurai made it trash out of spite for the competitive scene and its use of the ken combo in past iterations of the game.)You also have to take into consideration that even though the active frames on moves like bair and fair are listed as coming out on a certain frame, the animations on the attacks are upwards and downwards motions, so the attack isn't going to actually be coming out directly in front of you until a frame or two later.


I haven't really experimented with the other sword characters that much, but I think it all just boils down to their animations and how the moves cover the characters bodies with a hitbox. If you take Ike for example, it is going to be incredibly hard to get in on a good ike player utilizing his aerials probably because the hit boxes basically cover his entire body. His Nair alone covers the range of basically all of Lucinas aerials combined, has a ton of active frames, and has the same amount of landing lag as Lucinas up air. Things like his uptilt even kill from behind him for whatever reason, and in none of his attacks does he needlessly stick his arm or body out super far. To be quite honest, the worst part about all of this is that a lot of his bread and butters arent even that much slower than Lucina even though they pack about 3x the punch. It is pretty much the exact opposite for Lucina and Marth. Everything up until the actual blade of her sword doesnt have any sort of hitbox in pretty much every attack except for up smash. You combine this her sticking her arm and body out as far as she possibly can plus laggy moves and you have a recipe for disaster.

I don't like pretending like I am an expert on the subject either. I have played about 5000 matches with Lucina though, and from my experience, you are probably going to end up trading or simply getting "outprioritized" on a lot of attacks where the hitbox on the attack is following through and moving towards you. In addition to Lucina, I play about 10 other characters pretty regularly, and over the course of about 6000 total matches with them, I don't run into situations that make me want to throw my controller due to a bad trade or being straight outprioritized on a ridiculous level. With Lucina it happens on a daily basis.

If you are really curious, you can go into training mode and slow down the speed to 1/4. You can usually see exactly where the hit boxes come out. For things like dtilt and neutral B, both the hit box and hurt box go from being very close to your body to very far away from your body over the course of a single frame. Even though you can't see it in the video, when I let go of my neutral B at the exact moment megaman used his uppercut, so my hurtbox extended super far out in front of me over what I can only assume is a single frame, right into an attack that had intangibility on it. If you are curious as to how hurtboxes in general get extended with each move, you can build a custom level with lava walls, or you can simply throw out bumpers in training mode and see how far you have to be to use a move without taking damage. With moves like fsmash, she will literally slam her head into the bumpers/wall before the hitbox even begins to come out.

The interesting thing about this scenario is that a lot of moves on other characters that would put you in this kind of situation have frames of intangibility on them before the hit box comes out, or for the duration of the attack. Yoshis fsmash, marios up smash, dededes up tilt, even falcos down smash, all have some sort of intangibility frame on part of their body to protect them in situations where parts of their body used in the attack animation would be exposed. The only move Lucina has this on outside of counter is the start up of dolphin slash, which is super easy to interrupt with a lasting hitbox anyways. It is just one of the many reasons why I feel like they had two separate design teams working on the characters who didn't really communicate with each other on how they wanted to balance them.
 
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Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
2,176
Tbh I don't get why there's still some hitbox+animation issues left in this game. They've fixed a few (mostly on Meta Knight), but there's still some left (Marcina, Mewtwo, Samus, I swear that Robin's Ftilt can still whiff point blank, and there's probably more I don't remember), and then there's dumb **** like Captain Falcon's Fsmash having a noticeable disjoint to it but his dash grab can miss point blank.

What the **** was that sliding thing though? I've never seen anything like that before....

I'm pretty sure though that Dancing Blade not working smoothly is more just online input lag though. I have trouble using it well online but offline it flows smoothly.

Based off the video you've shown, is it fair to assume that Sheik's F-Air constantly trumps Marth/Lucina's F-Air not just because Sheik's move is faster, but because Marth/Lucina's swords act as hurtboxes?
Nah, Falchion is disjointed and I'm pretty sure it doesn't really extend their hurtboxes. IIRC it's more that, besides the fact that Shiek moves faster and her Fair is faster, it also has some disjoint to it. Vaguely remember seeing some gif or video of it somewhere.


Assuming we do get character/balance changes this coming patch though, I'm....not terribly optimistic that the patch would really address these issues since all these problem still exist even after 10 patches, and Marth/Lucina have gotten a lot of buffs already so they may feel like they've done enough, even though most of the buffs were more minor quality of life changes than fixing serious issues besides like the Jab buff and maybe the Nair landing lag reduction.

And then they'll probably buff Ike again. Because they can.
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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Nov 25, 2014
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62
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requiemlacrimosa
What the **** was that sliding thing though? I've never seen anything like that before....
Reverse wave bounced neutral B, I like to use it by running in during getup situations. It can bait out getup attacks, or cause confusion and hesitation with their shield for a shield break. It can also be used to cover normal ledge get ups and bait out get up attacks or roll get ups. This is what it looks like when I don't get completely destroyed by megaman's up tilt.



And yeah, dancing blade does work in a lot of situations, but at lower % and depending on DI, it is incredibly unsafe in my experience, especially against fast fallers. It simply doesn't lock the person in place the way it was intended to. The final hit of the up variant doesn't even land on characters like sheik, greninja and fox until like 40%, and the hit stun isn't enough to prevent them from shielding in between db2>3 and 3>4. I have been up smashed by fox so many times in the middle of my dancing blade combo even though the first or second db hit landed.
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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requiemlacrimosa
Duet Duet this is Marth not Lucina but is this kind of what you mean about the extended hurtbox? I'm not sure if I am seeing it correctly maybe he was just close enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7zvFbb_SsI
Skip to around 4:19
He definitely wouldn't have gotten hit if he didn't use neutral b, but it looks like there are a few factors here at play in addition to that, so its not an extreme case of getting hit because of an extended hurtbox. First off, the active frames on it are basically non existent, its only active for 2 frames. The smash looks like it hit him 1-2 frames after the hitbox was gone. In comparison, if it had the same number of frames as it did in brawl it, i think he would have at the very lest traded. This is just an example of their attacks not "following through." Another factor is that if you use neutral b in the air, it will move you forward a bit. If you slow down the video you can see that he releases the neutral B right before he hits the ground so it thrusts him forward slightly. So that + slightly bad spacing + the extended hurt box + bad frame data caused him to get hit by sonics fsmash, which I believe is heavily disjointed but I am not sure, so that also played into the equation as well. TBH though he shouldn't have been using shield breaker in that situation anyways.
 
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Clock Tower Prison

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He definitely wouldn't have gotten hit if he didn't use neutral b, but it looks like there are a few factors here at play in addition to that, so its not an extreme case of getting hit because of an extended hurtbox. First off, the active frames on it are basically non existent, its only active for 2 frames. The smash looks like it hit him 1-2 frames after the hitbox was gone. In comparison, if it had the same number of frames as it did in brawl it, i think he would have at the very lest traded. This is just an example of their attacks not "following through." Another factor is that if you use neutral b in the air, it will move you forward a bit. If you slow down the video you can see that he releases the neutral B right before he hits the ground so it thrusts him forward slightly. So that + slightly bad spacing + the extended hurt box + bad frame data caused him to get hit by sonics fsmash, which I believe is heavily disjointed but I am not sure, so that also played into the equation as well. TBH though he shouldn't have been using shield breaker in that situation anyways.
Wait why is Sonic's Fsmash even slightly disjointed? It is his fist. That is what should be addressed in the upcoming patch if anything.
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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requiemlacrimosa
It probably won't be, since it is intentional.
 

Kenith

Overkill Sarcasm
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This patch is downright humiliating as a Lucina main.
I really hope people are right there's going to be another patch with balance changes soon cuz character, because otherwise I feel like the devs are actively trying to keep ****ty characters ****ty.
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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requiemlacrimosa
LMAAAAAAAAAO! And Shield Breaker being bad was what started this thread.

It was the one thing they changed too.
Well according to reddit, apparently my spacing being bad is the reason why I am calling it bad and not because the move itself is bad and I just need to learn to space better. I guess we have our answer guys. Lucina isn't bad, we just aren't spacing well enough!
 

Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
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why would they reduce the amount of shield damage a move called Shield Breaker does? like wtf it's supposed to break shields and it's not like it's stupidly easy to do

c'mon Nintendo

edit: they did apparently nerf the shield damage on several other moves though so....
 
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Saclam

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Sigh...game finally gets shield stun and they decide to nerf the one move that would benefit her a lot in the long run.
 
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accel

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 30, 2015
Messages
3
You guys do know that there's a new formula for shield stun now, right? It's more relevant for Marth since he has tippers, but shield breaker's reduction in shield damage is to probably balance the fact that you're stuck in shield stun longer. Leaving it strong could've possibly led to instant shield breaks since your shield drains as you're shielding.

If you're comparing to Marth or Roy's potential in this patch, then maybe Lucina got the short end of the stick, but you're purposefully choosing to play Lucina over Marth so you should fully know what you're getting yourself into. So much sensationalized doom and gloom over one move.

Some potential from other characters with shield stun changes:
https://twitter.com/_infrom_/status/6...
https://twitter.com/gazer2014/status/...

Now's the time to be testing safety on shield as well as learning to powershield just about everything. This is a potentially huge meta shift. Defensive options are getting nerfed. The way people approach this game might change for better or worse, only time will tell.
 

Duet

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requiemlacrimosa
I am noticing virtually no difference in the safety of her attacks. All of my aerials spaced completely at the tip of the sword are being grabbed, so basically throwing out any aerial is still unsafe as hell if it gets shielding. The shield breaker nerf is incredibly noticeable however, since it was one of the moves I utilized the most. It has become virtually useless in the manner that I liked to use it, and at this point landing a shield break is about the equivalent of landing a falcon punch.


After reading all of the buzz around the shield stun stuff I was incredibly excited to get home and test it out, but it seems to be the same old stuff. Unfortunately, this patch has basically buried Lucina for me, and I think it is time to move on to greener pastures and invest time into a character that Sakurai hasn't decided he wants to keep in the gutter. I guess good for all those people that got shield break moves because of the new shield stun, too bad the actual move called shield breaker no longer serves its purpose.
 

Izayoi

zzz
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I'm trying my best to stay positive during Grima's reign.

...The struggle to obtain the five jewels of the Fire Emblem to do the Awakening is going to be real.
 

Duet

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requiemlacrimosa
Either you are reading it wrong or I am reading it wrong, because for the most recent patch, all of Lucina's aerials except dair are unsafe from shield grab according to that list . I highly doubt that it is taking into account the sword spacing though, so it is really just business as usual.
 
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Nobie

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Either you are reading it wrong or I am reading it wrong, because for the most recent patch, all of Lucina's aerials except dair are unsafe from shield grab according to that list . I highly doubt that it is taking into account the sword spacing though, so it is really just business as usual.
I'm pretty sure that "No" on that list means cannot be grabbed easily out of shield, and "yes" means they can.
 

Duet

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requiemlacrimosa
No means it isn't safe at all, high on shield means you can grab if they hit you basically above mid height of the shield (13 to 16 frames) and isn't totally safe, tight is 17 to 19 frames so you need to act quickly for it to be totally safe, lenient is 20 or more frames.
 

Freelance Spy

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Geez this place is dead. Here I am looking for people who actually care enough about the character to at least try to test moves safety on shield and nobody even posted a "patch 1.1.1" thread yet.

This is the ONLY character board who hasn't done that!

I'd like to start testing myself tomorrow to see what I can contribute.

Stay hopeful. Hope will never die.
 

Rewrite

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
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Geez this place is dead. Here I am looking for people who actually care enough about the character to at least try to test moves safety on shield and nobody even posted a "patch 1.1.1" thread yet.

This is the ONLY character board who hasn't done that!

I'd like to start testing myself tomorrow to see what I can contribute.

Stay hopeful. Hope will never die.
Honestly, it's because most of the people whom use the Lucina boards aren't so much concerned with Lucina in Smash as much as they are concerned with Lucina the character. Most Lucina mains aren't tournament goers and actually just play the game casually.

Very little competitive discussion actually takes place here. If you look at the Lucina boards you'll realize just how many threads there are dedicated to fan art, asking people what they personally like about Lucina, and why people generally consider Lucina one of the works characters in the game. There also isn't just one of each of those either. There's about three of each the last time I checked, which shows me that a lot of people just want to post about their waifu. That's fine and all, but that's what the social threads exist for. At least for the fan-art threads there could be at least one giant one where people could post. I guess it doesn't matter since I'm sure mods clean up and delete a bunch of them, but it still goes to show the general mentality of what is at least the most vocal portion of the Lucina boards. *cough* no thread or discussion dedicated to her changes in the recent patch *cough*

Don't even get me started on the whole Lucina vs Marth debates that happen here. There has been a total of three massive threads dedicated to just this alone (which goes to show that people aren't checking what has been posted already, hence three art threads at one point) When someone asks why Lucina is generally considered a bad character the discussion inevitably turns into a comparison of the two. People will respond with points in Marth's favour that obviously make him a better character, but the back-and-forth that comes from the Lucina advocates basically boils down too "I don't want to space". The thread then inevitably descends into a Lucina circle-jerk and how she's bae. They asked why people though Lucina was a bad character and inferior to Marth so we told them, and then they say that we're being mean and elitist. At that point we just sort of abandon the thread because it's going nowhere and we've said our pieces.

My phrasing and explanations here have been a little-mean spirited, but at this point there's just no beating around the bush. Just look at this thread here, it's exactly what I was describing above:

Evidence.zip: http://smashboards.com/threads/is-lucina-really-that-bad.409671/

I think what happens is when people say Lucina is a bad character in Smash I think some people equate it as Lucina is a bad character. Obviously a characters viability in Smash Bros. isn't any indication of their actual character (hello Samus) but there is to be no slander of any sort against the ultimate waifu apparently.

Meanwhile, if you look at the Marth boards you'll realize the huge difference in mentality. There is a much greater variety of threads and every one is dedicated to competitive discussion in one way or another, the video archive is updated consistently, and while the match-up thread has slowed down it still chugs along. There have been great strides in Marth's meta because of this.

This is because Smashboards is a website mostly dedicated to the competitive aspect of Smash Brothers. Lucina is to Marth what Pichu was to Pikachu in Melee. Why pick the worse character when you can play one whom functions the same way with superior options?

Since Marth and Lucina fundamentally play the same, I know Lucina players whom will frequent the Marth boards for information since the Lucina boards are so dry.

I'm mostly just sick of having these same discussions with brick walls over and over again and just wanted to get it all off my chest. At this point I've learned that if someone wants to say Lucina is better because they don't have to worry about spacing, I should just leave them be since I'd be wasting my breath.

The lack of actual competitive discussion on the Lucina boards has been noted by quite a few people. One of my friends refers to this place as Deviant Art for a reason. To be fair though, it has gotten better recently.
 
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Kenith

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Frankly, I want to play Lucina competitively, and no matter how bad she is, I am going to go for it.
So I would appreciate all the help I can get. It sucks when I see more talk about Lucina in the Marth boards than her own damn subforum...
 

Rewrite

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
105
Frankly, I want to play Lucina competitively, and no matter how bad she is, I am going to go for it.
So I would appreciate all the help I can get. It sucks when I see more talk about Lucina in the Marth boards than her own damn subforum...
It's not so much that she is discussed more as much as they're applying the Marth tech to her.
 

Ultinarok

Smash Lord
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Give Lucina a slightly quicker dash and air speed. Then she can be a Roy/Marth hybrid and people will have more of an incentive to actually use her since she will be a solid mid-pick between the two instead of completely overshadowed. Even a simple change like this would cause some mold to break in this forum, because as it stands why discuss Lucina's traits as a character when its commonly known she's just a worse Marth? Unless every thread is about up tilt and grounded up smash (ie her only two moves that beat both Marth and Roy in usefulness), her design will continue to make her actual character her most appealing trait and the primary reason anyone would pick her.
 
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Duet

Smash Cadet
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Nov 25, 2014
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requiemlacrimosa
Geez this place is dead. Here I am looking for people who actually care enough about the character to at least try to test moves safety on shield and nobody even posted a "patch 1.1.1" thread yet.

This is the ONLY character board who hasn't done that!

I'd like to start testing myself tomorrow to see what I can contribute.

Stay hopeful. Hope will never die.
Yeah, I haven't really come to these forums much since like March when I realized that the competitive discussion was dying down, and the most active topic was usually just the social. When I posted this thread I didn't realize how dead the board was in general though. I didn't really ever intend for it to become the patch thread considering i posted it several days before the patch.

Anyways, I have been testing a bit, but I have been busy with school. Like I said the day of the patch though, I don't really feel like her aerials are any safer. I don't really understand it all that well yet, but I feel like the fact that the shield stun overlapping with shield drop frames might have something to do with it. Hypothetically, all of her moves should be safer if they universally buffed shield stun and that is all there was to it. My understanding of it though is that if you land an attack close to the perfect shield window, it will overlap with the 8 shield lag frames, instead of adding onto the frames it will take before shield drop, which is what it did prior to this patch. If anyone has a better understanding of it then please let me know and we can move on from there to figure it out.

If my understanding of this is correct though, all aerials are still unsafe as hell against out of shield options frame data wise, but more safe than they used to be. For non out of shield options, her nair and up air should be around -1 and fair and bair should be about -2? Meaning, still unsafe as well.

Furthermore, since shield breaker only does 8.5 damage uncharged, it won't be adding any extra frames before a character can shield drop until it is charged enough to do about 12 damage, and it won't be adding more shield stun frames than the old patch until it is charged to like 15-16% at which point it is still going to do less than it used to, so basically all of that justification about how the nerfs to shield breaking moves were necessary goes completely out the window for Lucina, and shield breaker being nerfed is just that, a nerf. The person basically has to be sitting in their shield for it to negatively effect them, and gone are the days of quick popping shields because they missed the perfect shield window. The only way you are going to be landing attacks now that break shields will have to be more choreographed than the used to be.

If anyone who doesn't just play this character because she is their waifu wants to check my math, it would be appreciated.
 
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Buffoon

Smash Ace
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Geez this place is dead. Here I am looking for people who actually care enough about the character to at least try to test moves safety on shield and nobody even posted a "patch 1.1.1" thread yet.

This is the ONLY character board who hasn't done that!

I'd like to start testing myself tomorrow to see what I can contribute.

Stay hopeful. Hope will never die.
I've never stopped playing this girl since 3DS Day 1. Most of her discussion goes on in the Marth boards, and most of that can be summed up as how much she's lacking in comparison to Marth.
 
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Caryslan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
169
Honestly, it's because most of the people whom use the Lucina boards aren't so much concerned with Lucina in Smash as much as they are concerned with Lucina the character. Most Lucina mains aren't tournament goers and actually just play the game casually.

Very little competitive discussion actually takes place here. If you look at the Lucina boards you'll realize just how many threads there are dedicated to fan art, asking people what they personally like about Lucina, and why people generally consider Lucina one of the works characters in the game. There also isn't just one of each of those either. There's about three of each the last time I checked, which shows me that a lot of people just want to post about their waifu. That's fine and all, but that's what the social threads exist for. At least for the fan-art threads there could be at least one giant one where people could post. I guess it doesn't matter since I'm sure mods clean up and delete a bunch of them, but it still goes to show the general mentality of what is at least the most vocal portion of the Lucina boards. *cough* no thread or discussion dedicated to her changes in the recent patch *cough*

Don't even get me started on the whole Lucina vs Marth debates that happen here. There has been a total of three massive threads dedicated to just this alone (which goes to show that people aren't checking what has been posted already, hence three art threads at one point) When someone asks why Lucina is generally considered a bad character the discussion inevitably turns into a comparison of the two. People will respond with points in Marth's favour that obviously make him a better character, but the back-and-forth that comes from the Lucina advocates basically boils down too "I don't want to space". The thread then inevitably descends into a Lucina circle-jerk and how she's bae. They asked why people though Lucina was a bad character and inferior to Marth so we told them, and then they say that we're being mean and elitist. At that point we just sort of abandon the thread because it's going nowhere and we've said our pieces.

My phrasing and explanations here have been a little-mean spirited, but at this point there's just no beating around the bush. Just look at this thread here, it's exactly what I was describing above:

Evidence.zip: http://smashboards.com/threads/is-lucina-really-that-bad.409671/

I think what happens is when people say Lucina is a bad character in Smash I think some people equate it as Lucina is a bad character. Obviously a characters viability in Smash Bros. isn't any indication of their actual character (hello Samus) but there is to be no slander of any sort against the ultimate waifu apparently.

Meanwhile, if you look at the Marth boards you'll realize the huge difference in mentality. There is a much greater variety of threads and every one is dedicated to competitive discussion in one way or another, the video archive is updated consistently, and while the match-up thread has slowed down it still chugs along. There have been great strides in Marth's meta because of this.

This is because Smashboards is a website mostly dedicated to the competitive aspect of Smash Brothers. Lucina is to Marth what Pichu was to Pikachu in Melee. Why pick the worse character when you can play one whom functions the same way with superior options?

Since Marth and Lucina fundamentally play the same, I know Lucina players whom will frequent the Marth boards for information since the Lucina boards are so dry.

I'm mostly just sick of having these same discussions with brick walls over and over again and just wanted to get it all off my chest. At this point I've learned that if someone wants to say Lucina is better because they don't have to worry about spacing, I should just leave them be since I'd be wasting my breath.

The lack of actual competitive discussion on the Lucina boards has been noted by quite a few people. One of my friends refers to this place as Deviant Art for a reason. To be fair though, it has gotten better recently.

I hate to say this because I was a heavy Lucina player and defender before this patch, but Lucina is pretty much a handicap character at this point/ I know this sounds harsh, but Lucina has not only lost badly with this patch, she simply no longer feels rewarding to play.

I also play as Ganondorf and Dr. Mario, two characters widely held as being inferior versions of other characters on the roster. But the thing is, both have their perks that make them rewarding to play. Nothing feels more awesome then just unleashing Ganondorf's power and simply beating down opponents, especially if you nail a Warlock Punch. Ganondorf''s sheer power is his draw in contrast to the combo, dash grab playstyle of Captain Falcon.

Dr. Mario has the appeal of bringing back Mario's Melee-Style moveset. He feels rewarding to play as a general purpose character who can be the bane of Projectile oriented characters like Samus and Villager.

My point is this, despite their flaws, both Ganondorf and Dr. Mario are viable characters, that offer something different from their counterparts.

Lucina's biggest issue is that from the start, she's been in the shadow of Marth. They both share a common moveset, their stats are pretty much the same, their customs are the same and despite them both having fundamental differences in how they play, Lucina and Marth share common changes in each patch.

Which results in the negative of her falling behind her fellow Fire Emblem reps. Ike, Robin, and Marth have both benefited from the changes they have gotten in the patches. Ike went from a lower middle tier character to someone who is on the outer fringes of high tier. Robin and Marth are both middle tier characters now, with major buffs that make them viable.

But poor Lucina has been left to rot in the lowest tiers, simply because Sakurai and his team refuse to address her issues separately. A buff that helps Marth does not translate to improvements to Lucina.

Perhaps worst of all, the Shield Breaker nerf hurts Lucina more then it does Marth.

Now, Lucina might still find her niche and appeal to people who want to use Marth's moveset without worrying about tippers were it not for Roy.

If any character is a blow to Lucina's viability, it is Roy. Simply put, Roy is everything Lucina is not. He's fast, has numerous setups into combos, has insane killing power, and can space much better then she can. Roy's sweetspot at the center of the his blade translates well to being more aggressive then Marth, without the drawbacks Lucina suffers from.

Roy is widely considered not only the best Fire Emblem character in the roster, but to many top-level players, the best Swordsman in the game. He is the perfect character for people who want to play with a Marth-style moveset, without having to worry about the tipper(and to be honest, the sweetspot of the center of the blade can feel just as natural)

I hate to say this, but I'm not sure if I'll keep playing as Lucina. It's not even the fact that I'm using a low-tier character that bugs me. I was a dedicated Ganondorf player in Brawl, and I loving playing as Charizard in Smash 4.

No, what bothers me about Lucina is that every patch reinforces the notion that she's nothing more then an inferior Marth and Roy. Even if she gets buffs from the patches, Marth still gets more benefits at the end.

I just don't know what to say. All the other characters that I use feel like they got something out of this patch, or at worst, are about the same.

Lucina is the only one who just feels worse off in the end. And she just feels pointless to even play unless you really like Lucina for her character from Awakening. In terms of gameplay, she can't get out of the shadow of Marth and Roy.
 

Izayoi

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Honestly, all Sakurai really needs to do is to stop making Lucina an incomplete Marth clone and either make us have different properties like Doctor Mario or make us like Dark Pit.
The latter would be better, since we'd have a (slightly shorter) tipper and about three moves that function differently. We'd still keep the fundamental gameplay that we're "used" to while also adding making us on par with Marth.
Sakurai's original plans for Lucina was to make her a Marth skin, yet here we are with Dark Pit who has three or so different moves instead of being a skin. Why gimp Lucina's fans by making her just an inferior Marth? This is an eternal frustration for a majority of the Lucina main realists, honestly.

The day Sakurai decides to make Lucina into something more than just an incomplete Marth is the day Smash 4 will be complete for me.
...But I am more likely to see Ridley entering the roster than that.
I even have doubts about Lucina reappearing in the next Smash installment a decade into the future.
 
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Rewrite

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Lucina's biggest issue is that from the start, she's been in the shadow of Marth. They both share a common moveset, their stats are pretty much the same, their customs are the same and despite them both having fundamental differences in how they play, Lucina and Marth share common changes in each patch.
Marth and Lucina are EXACTLY the same character. Optimal play for them is the exact same thing. In any situation as either character you would do the exact same thing. What ultimately makes Marth so superior to the Lucina is that there isn't a single situation where it would be more advantageous to be Lucina instead of Marth. Optimal play for the Falchions is exactly the same. Space your opponents out and force them into a ledge-guard situation. When one character has a tipper that increases his range and rewards for properly spacing, it's obvious which one is better.

The msot ironic thing about it though is Marth's moves are all safer than Lucina's because Marth's tipper now does good shield stun and his untipped moves don't have the hit-lag modifier.

From a competitive standpoint Lucina suffers from being inferior in every aspect to Marth. She doesn't space as hard, doesn't have as strong a reward for spacing, and ironically can;t be more aggressive despite the *consistent blade.
 

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Rewrite Rewrite Well then, I'm screwed; I can't use Marth's tipper for squat in Sm4sh. Roy sinks like a brick, which does not benefit my play-style of chasing people off stage.
 

Locuan

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Rewrite Rewrite Well then, I'm screwed; I can't use Marth's tipper for squat in Sm4sh. Roy sinks like a brick, which does not benefit my play-style of chasing people off stage.
Consistent practice goes a long way. Not being able to use Marth's tipper means your Lucina play is also suffering since you are unable to correctly space her moves.

Off-stage you can go for gimps, but in this game it's actually a risky gamble due to the ledge differences from previous entries. You need to read their double jump or their height to be successful. Otherwise, they'll recover (in this game way more common than in others and usually the case). Once they recover the situation is reversed. If they stay on the stage, they can force ledge trap scenarios and punish you heavily from that. Not to say gimps shouldn't be attempted. However, this is the reason you see most high/top level players stay on stage and setup ledge traps rather than going aggressive out of it.
 

Freelance Spy

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Honestly, it's because most of the people whom use the Lucina boards aren't so much concerned with Lucina in Smash as much as they are concerned with Lucina the character. Most Lucina mains aren't tournament goers and actually just play the game casually.

Very little competitive discussion actually takes place here. If you look at the Lucina boards you'll realize just how many threads there are dedicated to fan art, asking people what they personally like about Lucina, and why people generally consider Lucina one of the works characters in the game. There also isn't just one of each of those either. There's about three of each the last time I checked, which shows me that a lot of people just want to post about their waifu. That's fine and all, but that's what the social threads exist for. At least for the fan-art threads there could be at least one giant one where people could post. I guess it doesn't matter since I'm sure mods clean up and delete a bunch of them, but it still goes to show the general mentality of what is at least the most vocal portion of the Lucina boards. *cough* no thread or discussion dedicated to her changes in the recent patch *cough*

Don't even get me started on the whole Lucina vs Marth debates that happen here. There has been a total of three massive threads dedicated to just this alone (which goes to show that people aren't checking what has been posted already, hence three art threads at one point) When someone asks why Lucina is generally considered a bad character the discussion inevitably turns into a comparison of the two. People will respond with points in Marth's favour that obviously make him a better character, but the back-and-forth that comes from the Lucina advocates basically boils down too "I don't want to space". The thread then inevitably descends into a Lucina circle-jerk and how she's bae. They asked why people though Lucina was a bad character and inferior to Marth so we told them, and then they say that we're being mean and elitist. At that point we just sort of abandon the thread because it's going nowhere and we've said our pieces.

My phrasing and explanations here have been a little-mean spirited, but at this point there's just no beating around the bush. Just look at this thread here, it's exactly what I was describing above:

Evidence.zip: http://smashboards.com/threads/is-lucina-really-that-bad.409671/

I think what happens is when people say Lucina is a bad character in Smash I think some people equate it as Lucina is a bad character. Obviously a characters viability in Smash Bros. isn't any indication of their actual character (hello Samus) but there is to be no slander of any sort against the ultimate waifu apparently.

Meanwhile, if you look at the Marth boards you'll realize the huge difference in mentality. There is a much greater variety of threads and every one is dedicated to competitive discussion in one way or another, the video archive is updated consistently, and while the match-up thread has slowed down it still chugs along. There have been great strides in Marth's meta because of this.

This is because Smashboards is a website mostly dedicated to the competitive aspect of Smash Brothers. Lucina is to Marth what Pichu was to Pikachu in Melee. Why pick the worse character when you can play one whom functions the same way with superior options?

Since Marth and Lucina fundamentally play the same, I know Lucina players whom will frequent the Marth boards for information since the Lucina boards are so dry.

I'm mostly just sick of having these same discussions with brick walls over and over again and just wanted to get it all off my chest. At this point I've learned that if someone wants to say Lucina is better because they don't have to worry about spacing, I should just leave them be since I'd be wasting my breath.

The lack of actual competitive discussion on the Lucina boards has been noted by quite a few people. One of my friends refers to this place as Deviant Art for a reason. To be fair though, it has gotten better recently.
Hey, I just wanted to personally thank you for writing this. It was the most entertaining and interesting thing I've read all week.

That said, I'm going to try to push some Lucina meta if indeed her extra punishable options have been fixed. First I have to stop being sick so I can invite my smash partner over...

By the way, I still like the Lucina boards better than the disorganized, ugly, overstuffed board that is the Link sub. Screw that place.
 
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Buffoon

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Consistent practice goes a long way. Not being able to use Marth's tipper means your Lucina play is also suffering since you are unable to correctly space her moves.
In all honesty, is training with Marth worth it? Even with the tipper he faces the same problems as Lucina (of course he does, she's his clone!), so even if I trained with Marth, I'd still be playing with a character who's lacking in some very vital areas.
 

Izayoi

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In all honesty, is training with Marth worth it? Even with the tipper he faces the same problems as Lucina (of course he does, she's his clone!), so even if I trained with Marth, I'd still be playing with a character who's lacking in some very vital areas.
I personally play them both interchangeably now that I know the extent of the Falchions' reach. There are still certain situations where being Lucina can help more than being Marth, in my opinion.

Play who you want to play...in the end, there's still more patches to come: changes are inevitable. Hopefully then we'll see the day Grima is destroyed and peace is finally brought back to our lands.
 
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