Just to make stuff easier for myself I've collected a few posts I've made about specific MUs. I might re-write them at some point so that my points become more guide-ish. Some up to date MU guides would be pretty cool.
Fox
[...] I'm probably not the best to give advice on Fox as my way of playing the match up is quite unorthodox in some aspects as I focus more on desyncs and wobbling set ups than the other high level ICs mains, especially "lag-less" set ups (as I call them) that make it possible to get wobbling going at very low %. I can give you some general advice though.
Be patient. You don't really want to approach Fox unless you get a read on the Fox player's movement. It's really hard to hit a good Fox player who knows how he should keep his space against ICs. It's possible for Ice Climbers to beat Fox because we can punish harder than Fox when we get an opening, but it's much easier for the Fox to get openings on his own which is the main reason why I'd say the MU is in Fox's favor. The ICs player has to understand how the Fox player moves and then stop him. You shouldn't try to catch Fox directly (unless he's in some sort of lag) because that's just what the Fox player wants you to do.
With that in mind, how you should play the MU depends completely on how the Fox plays the MU. The if Fox player camp platforms a lot then you need to trick him to jump into your hit boxes (mainly uair) - perhaps throw a waveland on platform -> grab into the mix if the Fox respects your uair too much and shields on a platform from time to time. Again, don't try to catch the Fox recklessly. Bait him into spots where you can hit him. Empty short or full jumps are great for baiting the Fox to move around without you have to commit hard.
If he wants to fight you on the ground then you have a few options. 1) You can approach with moves like WD to jab, f-tilt and perhaps grab if you overshooting the WD (aim behind him). These approaches are countered by full jumping so you want to throw some WD to u-tilt or uair into the mix as well if he tries to jump over you. 2) You can bait the Fox to approach you and punish his approaches with WD/run back to grab/smash/SH-fair/SH-bair. Fox is most likely going to approach with shine, SH Nair or SH dair, so these are the moves you want to out space. This way of fighting Fox is probably the most solid. Just make sure you don’t give up too much space when you wavedash back, because ICs can’t really do anything once they are catch at the edge as are have a hard time regaining stage control. 3) You can use a lot of blizzard and ice block desyncs and punish with WD to grab if they get hit. This is kind of hard, as you still want to trick the Fox and not just randomly throw out blizzard and ice blocks. Try to catch the Fox off guard.
I have all of the above in mind when I play against Fox, but what I do depends competently on the Fox player's style and how my conditioning has been working out. Armada's Fox pretty much camps platforms all the time while leffens Fox fights me more on the ground. Different stuff works against different players.
So yeah, be patient and notice what the Fox is doing. Then stop him.
Sheik
This is usually considered a rather bad match up for Sheik for the following two main reasons:
- Sheik struggles against ICs' CC game. Most of Sheik's attacks are easily CC'ed at low%. This is usually not that big of a deal against most characters because Sheik can use her grab to rank up % in order to "unlock" her other moves. However, this isn't really possible against ICs because grabbing ICs in gereral is rather risky; If you by accident grab Nana then Popo can punish your throw which can result in Sheik losing a stock because of...
- ICs' really strong grab punish game against Sheik. Sopo can down-throw CG Sheik to around 60 % without much trouble on every stage but FoD (because of randomly low platforms), and if the ICs players has both climbers then a grab should always result in a KO with wobbling no matter how the Sheik DIs the down-throw.
The MU from Sheik's point of view:
As a Sheik main playing this match up you should:
- Stop approaches. Because of her SH AC fair and ftilt, Sheik can stop ICs from wave dashing in can approaching in general. As a Sheik player in this MU you want to make the other player feel that he can't wave dash in to regain stage control or to approach. Sheik's tilts can be used to stop ICs from wave dashing in too if you hit them while they are in landing/sliding lag. Again just be aware of CCing. ICs can punish tilts with wobbling to rather high % with CC.
- Camp platforms. ICs in general has a hard time dealing with platform camping. However, with that said I think the platform-antiplatform game is in the climbers favor in the long run because they can punish harder than Sheik when they get an opening. I don't think Sheik can win the MU by platform-camping all the time, but it's a really good way for the Sheik to get some early % before trying to KO Nana. Bait the ICs to jump after you and punish with bair/fair; use SH needles to rank up %; drop through the platform to fair/bair to stop ICs from wave dashing under you. Dream Land 64 is a good stage for this strat, but it can work on most stages besides FD.
- Use lots of needles in neutral position. Sheik can't really approach ICs until ICs has reached a certain %. However, ICs can't really approach Sheik either without risking to get hit by a well spaced fair. For this reason the MU can be rather campy when both characters are at low % with both characters shoting stuff at each other. While ICs doesn't really care that much about Sheik's %, it's really important for Sheik to rank up % without getting grabbed/hit. Needles (grounded and in the air) are great for this because ICs likes to be alot on the ground. Just make sure that ICs can't punish you if the needles are shielded. Also, you really want to make sure you hit with your needles when they are fully charged. If you hit ICs with your FC needles at 0% it really makes the MU so much easier.
- Try to catch ICs in the shield. ICs can't really do much about SH AC fair once the climbers are put in their shield. Just keep on fairing and be ready to cover the roll or WD OoS with reasonable moves (e.g. down-smash if they roll near the edge, ftilt if they try to WD forward).
- Try to catch the ICs at the edge. One of the climbers biggest weaknesses is that they have a really hard time regaining stage when there isn't much space to move around on compared to the other high/top tier characters. Once near the edge many ICs players like to roll back to the very edge and do a blizzard (or ice block) desynch. While this is really risky it is often the best option. If the ICs manage to get the blizzard out then they can move forward and regain stage control; and if the Sheik gets hit by the blizzard then it can lead into grab and wobbling. If you cover the roll back as well as their other options (roll behind you, wave dash forward, jumping over you, wavelanding on a platform, and dash attack) then you should be good. It also takes quite some time for the first hit box of the blizzard to come out so you have enough time to run in and do a down smash once you see the roll back. In general, don't be afraid to down-smash ICs when they're shielding near a legde. While down-smash is a rather bad/risky move to use in neutral position it is a great move to push ICs off the edge. If spaced correctly the down-smash can be used to KO Nana because she will often jump into the last part of the hitbox once knocked off the stage.
- Beware of blizzard and ice shot desyncs. If you get hit on the ground by one of these projectiles it can lead into grab and wobbling if the ICs capitalizes on it. If you get hit anyway try to DI up and away to avoid the grab. Some ICs mains like to use a lot of desyns in neutral position against Sheik.
- Kill Nana. However, don't rush it. Rank up some % first. Without Nana ICs can't use desync tricks and can't punish as hard.
Peach
[...] So, about the Peach MU. It's winnable if the Peach is playing it sub-optimal. ICs can pretty much punish every of Peach's moves but fair with wobbling if you get the read. However, Peach doesn't need to do anything besides FC fair. It works at any %, is safe on shield, can be used to split up ICs, and it can be used to KO Nana at very low risk. The best way to beat Peach's FC fair with others characters is usually dash dancing into punish (grab) or wave dash back into punish. ICs can do this as well, but because Nana can't dash dance and her wave dash is delayed, she usually gets hit by the fair even though your spacing with Popo is on point and you get the punish (grab). In most MUs this can work out for ICs because Nana will usually get back to Popo fastly if hit at lower % so that you can get a big punish. However, because the fair knocks Nana into the ground at every % (and because Nana doesn't tech) she won't be back in time to help Popo. This means that you'll have to punish with Sopo everytime you punish the fair which at best is around 30% damage on Peach. You'll have to do this many times just in order to get a single stock, and Peach just needs to land a single fair to KO Nana.
The above means that playing defensively against Peach is a losing battle because you'll have to win way more spacing wars than the Peach in order to take a stock. However, playing offensively isn't much better because you can't approach Peach while she's floating at certain height. It's possible for the Peach player to stop any attempt at wave dashing in on your part with FC fair. Sure you can get some damage with some well timed aeriales, but once again you'll have to do this many times in order to take 1 stock. Peach needs just one read on your approach to KO Nana off a fair. Ice block and blizzard desyncs don't work either because Peach can just float over them and punish with fair.
However, if the Peach player likes to do other stuff than FC fair then the MU becomes very winnable. Peach mains who are not familiar with the MU and therefore try to play it like any other MU are beatable because it's possible to punish hard, and luckily only a few Peach players know the MU. Armada and M2K are to this day the only players I have watched playing the MU right. I really can't see Wobbles beat these guys in a set even though it might be one of his best MUs. It really is the closest you get to a winnable MU among the high/top tier characters. Without her fair I think the MU would be in ICs' favour, but with it the ICs has to be a much better player in order to win if the Peach player plays the MU right.
I still think there's hope, however, but it comes down to stuff like platform camping with Ice blocks and playing for the time out. I also have some very specific desyncs that I think could be used to beat the fair, but it needs more testing.
[...]Alright. Sure, you can fight Peach while she's floating and hit her with stuff like full jump aerial. This isn't too hard and I do it quite often against Peach to get in some damage, even against Armada when I get a read. However, the problem is that the punish game is so much in Peach's favor that this is a losing battle for the ICs player in the long run. If two players who are more or less even in skill lvl fight each other in this match up then the ICs player needs to win way more spacing wars than the Peach player to win a stock (given that the Peach player's punish game has reached a certain lvl). ICs has to commit hard to the approach each time they decide to fight Peach in the air. If the Peach players reacts correctly or get a read on one of these approaches and punish with fair then Nana should be out. The Peach player doesn't need to commit as hard when she goes in with fair or tries to intercept an incoming approach because FC fair has so little lag. Sure, once she whiffs her aerial and she's on the ground you should be able to punish her, but once again you have to know Peach's next move. When I play against Armada he usually goes for a jab, down-smash or a roll/spotdodge if he whiffs a fair really close to me (otherwise he will just jump up again and start to float if I'm not in a position to punish him). Each of these moves can be punished, but you can't cover them all at the same time with ICs.
Just for heck of it, here is
Fly v Armada from Evo to demonstrate what I'm talking about.
If you watch my
set against Paju from BEAST4 you'll see that I get most of my KOs because of wobbling by baiting and punishing a d-smash or because Paju decides to battle on the ground. If Paju had decided not to fight me on the ground and float camp more then I wouldn't be able to land those grabs and it would be so much harder for me to take stocks off him.
