How Well Would SSBM's Ganondorf FARE in Brawl (Under the Following Conditions)?

[supersmash43]

Would you rather have the Melee version of Ganondorf in Brawl instead of his current nerfed version in Brawl?

These are the conditions you may choose from (only one of them):

1) There are no changes in his attacks' attributes (damage, knock-back, trajectory, and etc) whatsoever. So this is basically the SSBM version of Ganondorf replacing the inferior SSBB version Ganondorf in SSBB. No buffs or changes whatsoever and the only thing affecting Melee Ganondorf's performance would be the new physics engine, game play mechanics, and etc of Brawl (in addition to how well he would fare against the rest of the cast in SSBB).

2) Melee version of Ganondorf gets transferred over to Brawl YET he receives AL the buffs that Brawl Ganondorf has over Melee Ganondorf such as (but not limited to) the following:

-Flame choke
- A more powerful aerial Wizard's Foot
-The darkness upper cut from his Up B move
-A buffed up Warlock Punch

and etc...

So what do you guys think? How well would Melee Ganondorf rank in Brawl in either of those two conditions?

 

[DLA]

He'd still be bottom tier in either situation. Ganondorf was mid tier in melee entirely because of wavedashing and L-canceling, neither of which are present in Brawl. Without those, his spacing/approaching simply suck too much to be considered anything higher than bottom tier.

 

[Steam]

That and ganon doesn't get the incredible rewards for landing hits like he used to.

but that frame 3 jab lol

 

[supersmash43]

He'd still be bottom tier in either situation. Ganondorf was mid tier in melee entirely because of wavedashing and L-canceling, neither of which are present in Brawl. Without those, his spacing/approaching simply suck too much to be considered anything higher than bottom tier.

That's true, but the Melee version of Ganon is still generally considered superior to his Brawl counterpart even without the game play mechanics and the physics engine to screw him over. Melee Ganondorf had overall more mobility even when wavedashing and L-canceling are taken out. btw doesn't the omissions of those mechanics handicap pretty much everyone transitioning from Melee to Brawl?

Ganondorf with only his Melee moves would still make him go up maybe three or four spots on the tier list right? With only the buffs, probably another three or four spots higher than without the buffs? So could he be a lower mid tier in the best scenario presented here?

That and ganon doesn't get the incredible rewards for landing hits like he used to.

but that frame 3 jab lol

Yeah 3 frame jab ftw even though his Brawl version has a longer jab range!

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, Melee Ganon F-tilt alone would bring up Ganondorf a tier. It's like better than DK's F-tilt. And while Melee Ganon's shieldgrab range is not good, it's still significantly better than Brawl Ganon's shieldgrab range and would make Ganondorf not quite so useless.

Plus, DLA, you're really underestimating how ridiculous the Melee B-air is. Not only does Ganon reach lower with it, the autocancel and hitbox duration on the move are just...wtf.

Melee vs Brawl Jab is pretty irrelevant. Melee Jab is better and worse in some ways, but it wouldn't really change much of Ganon's game in Brawl. Being able to use Jab here and there without worrying about getting ***** by spotdodge would be nice though.

The way I see it, Brawl Ganon with shieldgrab, F-tilt, and B-air from Melee would be about lower mid tier.

 

[DLA]

Ganondorf with only his Melee moves would still make him go up maybe three or four spots on the tier list right?

With only the buffs, probably another three or four spots higher than without the buffs?

So could he be a lower mid tier in the best scenario presented here?

I disagree with all of the above.

Just my opinion of course. I don't mean to sound obtuse or anything, but Melee Ganondorf is really, really, really bad without the ability to wavedash and L-cancel. He needs both more than most other characters in melee (at least at a high level of play).

If he lost both, then he'd be almost exactly as bad as he is in brawl. Maybe a bit better, but considering that he's so bad in Brawl that they made a separate tier for him, I doubt that any combination of his Brawl and Melee movesets would even move him one spot up on the Brawl tier list.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The assumptions you're making however are assuming that Ganon always needs to L-cancel to space properly, when in fact in Melee it's not actually necessary all the time for Ganon to play a good spacing game due to the fact that Ganon's aerials are AMAZING in other ways outside of SHFFLed spacing and due to how GOOD his tilts are. Lack of wavedashing if you ask me goes both ways. It's an option that is lost universally, so not having it doesn't really hurt Ganon. Much more important is the fact that shielding mechanics are more balanced and are more favorable for universally breaking pressure, which was Ganon's weakest area in Melee.

 

[smashkng]

Our Melee jab would definitely make us able to deal with close range game better. It's frame 3 so it comes almost a 3rd faster than the Brawl one, so even if it has worse range it's the superior version of our jab.

Yeah L canceling helped us dealing with our massive landing lag. We would be better if the landing lag on our was as little as our L Canceled Melee aerials. Melee Wizard Kick was also better because I think projectiles didn't cancel it and instead he kept moving forward. It even had more kill power. Our Melee recovery was one of the farthest horizontally in Melee, in Brawl it's arguably the shortest. In Melee an aerial Wizard Kick gives back a lost jump and doesn't make Ganon fall as quickly down, allowing us to have the time to use that often to make it far horizontally.

 

[Z1GMA]

It's frame 3 so it comes almost two 3'rds faster than the Brawl one

Fixed*

_______________

 

[supersmash43]

The assumptions you're making however are assuming that Ganon always needs to L-cancel to space properly, when in fact in Melee it's not actually necessary all the time for Ganon to play a good spacing game due to the fact that Ganon's aerials are AMAZING in other ways outside of SHFFLed spacing and due to how GOOD his tilts are. Lack of wavedashing if you ask me goes both ways. It's an option that is lost universally, so not having it doesn't really hurt Ganon. Much more important is the fact that shielding mechanics are more balanced and are more favorable for universally breaking pressure, which was Ganon's weakest area in Melee.

Exactly, that's what I was trying to tell DLA the whole time! The lost of wavedashing, L-canceling, and other universal gameplay mechanics isn't the only reason Ganondorf is bottom tier. Ganondorf also got overall badly nerfed in his overly attack power and speed.

I disagree with all of the above.

Just my opinion of course. I don't mean to sound obtuse or anything, but Melee Ganondorf is really, really, really bad without the ability to wavedash and L-cancel. He needs both more than most other characters in melee (at least at a high level of play).

If he lost both, then he'd be almost exactly as bad as he is in brawl. Maybe a bit better, but considering that he's so bad in Brawl that they made a separate tier for him, I doubt that any combination of his Brawl and Melee movesets would even move him one spot up on the Brawl tier list.

Yeah but you seem to forget that Brawl Ganondorf also got nerfed in terms of overall power and speed, so even under Melee mechanics/physics he would still be an overall weaker and slower character than Melee Ganondorf.

Our Melee jab would definitely make us able to deal with close range game better. It's frame 3 so it comes almost a 3rd faster than the Brawl one, so even if it has worse range it's the superior version of our jab.

Even with the much quicker speed, the jab wouldn't be nearly as effective as in Melee largely because of the lack of hitstun in Brawl. Unless of course the lack of hitstun in Brawl is only move specific (as in only certain moves lack in hitstun rather than hitstun being lowered universally for all moves), then Melee Ganon's jab in Brawl would also have less hitstun than it would in Melee. That would greatly lower its OoS effectiveness despite being much quicker.

Yeah L canceling helped us dealing with our massive landing lag. We would be better if the landing lag on our was as little as our L Canceled Melee aerials. Melee Wizard Kick was also better because I think projectiles didn't cancel it and instead he kept moving forward. It even had more kill power. Our Melee recovery was one of the farthest horizontally in Melee, in Brawl it's arguably the shortest. In Melee an aerial Wizard Kick gives back a lost jump and doesn't make Ganon fall as quickly down, allowing us to have the time to use that often to make it far horizontally.

Don't forget about the Dark Dive. That's one of the biggest nerfs on Ganondorf's moves! It use to have good KO power and was at least as powerful as the Falcon Dive in terms of knockback and damage! Now the move inflicts only 11% and has almost no hitstun which allows opponents to attack you back right after you grab them with your Dark Dive! Just watch this video to see how using the Dark Dive can actually KILL YOU!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R_X8Lc09rE
And yes the removal of the Wizard's Foot's Double Jump Regain (DJR) ability SEVERELY nerfed Ganondorf's recovery options. I only wish they allowed Ganondorf to use his aerial Flame Choke and Dark Dive in the same recovery (as in Flame Choke doesn't make you hapless right after you use it in mid air). That would have been AWESOME even if the Wizard's Foot's DJR was removed!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Our Melee jab would definitely make us able to deal with close range game better. It's frame 3 so it comes almost a 3rd faster than the Brawl one, so even if it has worse range it's the superior version of our jab.

The startup isn't really what matters. The low ending lag imo is more significant. Ganon's Brawl Jab isn't a bad move, except for the fact the risk/reward on it is RETARDEDLY bad, being the only Jab that legitimately cannot be used to cover spotdodge.

Ganon having the Melee F-tilt however is MUCH more important than having a quick Jab. Ganondorf could anti-air and space on the ground really really well with F-tilt. Ganon with Melee F-tilt alone would jump at least a tier, because he would finally have a real answer to all the aerial games that he previously couldn't punish very easily. The Melee F-tilt also has much more range than the Brawl one, and would be a great poke option not unlike DK's F-tilt, and better in a lot of ways.

Above all though, getting a real shieldgrab would make Ganondorf viable. Specifically I'm thinking something on the lines of ROB's grab range. Something like that would make him legit high tier if you changed absolutely nothing else. Ganondorf usually can get kills fairly easily when he's not suffering from stale moves. With grab becoming a viable approach, anti-air, and defensive option, Ganondorf's problems dealing consistent damage would practically vanish, leaving little to stop him from overwhelming his opposition with brute force.

 

[supersmash43]

The startup isn't really what matters. The low ending lag imo is more significant. Ganon's Brawl Jab isn't a bad move, except for the fact the risk/reward on it is RETARDEDLY bad, being the only Jab that legitimately cannot be used to cover spotdodge.

Ganon having the Melee F-tilt however is MUCH more important than having a quick Jab. Ganondorf could anti-air and space on the ground really really well with F-tilt. Ganon with Melee F-tilt alone would jump at least a tier, because he would finally have a real answer to all the aerial games that he previously couldn't punish very easily. The Melee F-tilt also has much more range than the Brawl one, and would be a great poke option not unlike DK's F-tilt, and better in a lot of ways.

Above all though, getting a real shieldgrab would make Ganondorf viable. Specifically I'm thinking something on the lines of ROB's grab range. Something like that would make him legit high tier if you changed absolutely nothing else. Ganondorf usually can get kills fairly easily when he's not suffering from stale moves. With grab becoming a viable approach, anti-air, and defensive option, Ganondorf's problems dealing consistent damage would practically vanish, leaving little to stop him from overwhelming his opposition with brute force.

Similarly by your logic King Dedede would be low tier if he had the same crappy grab range as Ganondorf. Well Dedede would DEFINITELY be much lower tiered with such a bad grab range, but I say even with a good grab range Ganondorf wouldn't be automatically high tier because his recovery is still crap (being one of the worse if not the worse in the game unless you count Yoshi's recovery). Then again Falco is top tier (which is a big surprise for me because of all the nerfs he received) in Brawl despite having a crap recovery as well (although not as bad as Ganon's) so you might be right about the greater grab range thing being able to up Ganon's metagame by a HUGE MARGIN.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Having a bad recovery isn't THAT crippling. Unless you're Bowser or Ivysaur. Those are cripplingly bad recoveries.

And yes DDD would not be a good character without good grab range. Good grab range matters a TON in this game, given the most popular approach in the game is the sliding shield. Being able to get the grab legitimately is far more important than the reward associated with it. The Ice Climbers however have other broken things going for them to make up for the fact their grab range is terrible.

 

[supersmash43]

Having a bad recovery isn't THAT crippling. Unless you're Bowser or Ivysaur. Those are cripplingly bad recoveries.

And yes DDD would not be a good character without good grab range. Good grab range matters a TON in this game, given the most popular approach in the game is the sliding shield. Being able to get the grab legitimately is far more important than the reward associated with it. The Ice Climbers however have other broken things going for them to make up for the fact their grab range is terrible.

Ice Climbers have a crazy chain grab IIRC? I haven't seen them in action for a while...that's why I am asking. Dedede's grab range is at least twice as long as Ganon's lol btw. Still it SUCKS to not be able to recover in a situation where most characters can recover from but you can't because your character has a terrible recovery as in the case of Ganon (if he could still regain his jump from the aerial Wizard's Foot, that would greatly improve his horizontal recovery or at least his recovery options).

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

My god Melee tipman, I would be so happy.