How Pilotwings is Broken

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So apparently Pilotwings is still seen as controversial. I keep hearing people say that the stage should be legal, or tested.

Take this from the guy who will gladly play against you on Orbital Gate Assault, Kalos League, and Yoshi's Island: Melee - Pilotwings is busted. Maybe some of you have seen this video. Personally, I feel that it doesn't show off the mechanics as well as it could, so I'd like to break down how the theory looks, next to that practice.

The stage has two phases: a red biplane...

And a yellow monoplane.

And both of these have trivially broken camping mechanics.

The yellow one is the easy one to grasp. A character with a good recovery and a player with a decent aim can run off the ledge and upB to the pontoons beneath the plane. As you cannot fall through the wing, we're left with what essentially boils down to a hard circle - in order to approach the player camping under the wing, you need to step off the wing, at which point they can jump up through the wing and run to the other side to reset the situation. This is basically circle camping. There is simply no way at all for a slower character to catch a faster character here, and it has the added bonus that characters with poor recoveries can't approach you under the wing at all!

But that's half the stage. What about the other half?

The Biplane suffers from a similar problem, except that this time, the camping spot can be dropped into. However, this is not much of an improvement. There are three ways to approach someone camping next to the plane's body:

• Through the bottom
• Dropping through from on top of them
  
• Coming in from the side

Through the bottom is essentially a slower version of coming in from the side, and both suffer the same consequence: the player running the clock can jump to the upper deck, run over to the other side of the plane, and reset the situation. So that leaves dropping through on top as the only approach which actually cuts off the angle which people would use to run away. And this is not an option. It was damn near impossible to approach characters through platforms in Brawl, and Brawl didn't have 20 frames of landing lag on an airdodge. Seriously, try doing this sometime. Find someone who plays Shiek or ZSS or any other character who can cover the area above them effectively, and approach from the top. You'll very quickly find that it doesn't work. At all. You just can't approach these characters from above through a platform. In fact, it's damn near impossible for anyone in the cast who has one halfway-decent upward-facing move, because your options are "drop through and throw out an aerial", at which point they have frame advantage and can swat you, or "drop through and airdodge", at which point you lag for like 30-40 frames and they get to hit you with whatever. Every other option simply resets the situation.


So in short, Pilotwings is completely broken. The runaway on this stage is completely unstoppable and provides an unreasonable, uncompetitive advantage to certain players at the character select screen. It makes competition trivial by reducing the optimal strategy to something that any player, regardless of skill, can execute on. It is not questionable, it is not in need of testing, it is broken and banworthy.

 

[AnchorTea]

You're my new hero...

In all seriousness. I'm glad someone proved that why this stage is a terrible choice to begin with. The only good thing I can say about it is that it's first form is ok and it has pretty colors.

 

[clydeaker]

You do bring up a good point. I know some people will dislike me for bringing up this argument, but the background hazards are fairly predictable. Camping on the other hand is an issue, but it's can easily be delt with if you have a little pacience and good strategy. As long as your not Little Mac you'll be alright.

You said it favors characters with good recovery... I don't mean to be rude but that's just like every other stage with ledges.

We all now know this stage isn't good enough to be a starter, the question is would this stage have any chance of becoming a counter pick? maybe even a doubles only counter pick?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You do bring up a good point. I know some people will dislike me for bringing up this argument, but the background hazards are fairly predictable. Camping on the other hand is an issue, but it's can easily be delt with if you have a little pacience and good strategy. As long as your not Little Mac you'll be alright.

You said it favors characters with good recovery... I don't mean to be rude but that's just like every other stage with ledges.

We all now know this stage isn't good enough to be a starter, the question is would this stage have any chance of becoming a counter pick? maybe even a doubles only counter pick?

I can see doubles if only because the extra two players running around would hypothetically make camping of any sort harder to pull off since you can pincer someone in between yourself and your teammate. I'm not very well-versed in doubles theory though, so that's guesswork.

In singles, no.

 

[clydeaker]

I can see doubles if only because the extra two players running around would hypothetically make camping of any sort harder to pull off since you can pincer someone in between yourself and your teammate. I'm not very well-versed in doubles theory though, so that's guesswork.

In singles, no.

Yeah, the camping would be too much of an issue for singles. Pilotwings could possibly become a counterpick for doubles.

 

[clydeaker]

Here are the results from The Ultimate Smash 4 Ruleset Poll regarding Pilot-wings:

According to this the community is divided or on the fence about Pilot-wings legality.

According to this 45% of Smash 4 players think Pilot-wings should be out right banned, however the other 55% are on the fence or think that Pilot-wings could at least have a chance at becoming a legal counter pick for doubles.

In my opinion Pilot-wings at least deserves testing as a doubles only counter pick before we outright ban it. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Buffoon]

I thought that rules against stalling were made for such tactics (e.g. hiding under a stage)?

 

[thehard]

I think those poll results are a product of a lot of people simply not knowing Pilotwings has a broken camp game. I don't blame them, it looks fine at a glance and in casual play people aren't going to camp their friends out. Simple video evidence, along with @ Budget Player Cadet_ 's excellent post should suffice. It would behoove the community to collect video evidence of ALL busted stages being exploited, so new players can be pointed in that direction when they ask why X stage is banned. It's really helpful.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

According to this 45% of Smash 4 players think Pilot-wings should be out right banned, however the other 55% are on the fence or think that Pilot-wings could at least have a chance at becoming a legal counter pick for doubles.

In my opinion Pilot-wings at least deserves testing as a doubles only counter pick before we outright ban it. Is that too much to ask?

Doubles-only counterpicks are, generally speaking, a bad idea, because doubles inevitably devolves into 1v1 or 2v1, at which point the "broken strategy" comes back with a vengeance. We had the same issue in Brawl with Spear Pillar.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I thought that rules against stalling were made for such tactics (e.g. hiding under a stage)?

I'm pretty sure that only applies to continuing infinite combos past death percent; anything else is fair game. Even planking wasn't outright banned in Brawl, it was only limited by imposing a ledge grab limit.

 

[Luigi player]

What's with characters with command grabs? They could surely find a way to drop down near, but not above the other player and have a "50:50" in terms of catching them with their grab or aerial. I'm also sure that other options can work as well there. It's definitely a little overpowered, but I don't think it's that broken or unbeatable (for all characters).
The yellow plane is definitely a problem though, Something like Jigglypuff can like even go under the plane to reach the other campingspot which would be like circle camping.
And of course the wall and probably other stuff that can "randomly" hit someone. The huge tilting of the planes is also pretty fraudulent tbh.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

As far as the two wall segments go, it's a matter of memorizing the path of the plane to know when they're coming. It's so telegraphed it's easy to adapt to and can be used as an offensive tool. It's almost like the Halberd's Combo Cannon attacks.

 

[Infinite901]

The hazards and the tilting aren't the problem. The camping is. Now, I thought most tournaments will penalize people for circle camping, is that incorrect?

 

[SmashChu]

I don't see the camping problem since both players can use it and there are options for doing it on both sides. The red plan has enough room to drop in from multiple angles and attack in different ways, one of which is great for any character with multiple jumps. There is a clear strategy to it.

Banning a stage because "I don't like that game play," is not enough. You may have a point with the Yellow plane, but not the red one. The are enough ways to get it and in order to succeed, both players have to read what the other will do. It creates a new dynamic and allows for more interesting counter picks.

One thing to keep in mind is that the stalling you see in the meta now is a result of dealing with time outs. Smash Brothers, unlike other fighting games, does not use health as a measure for victory in any game mode save for the one that uses traditional health, Stamina. There isn't a clear correlation to damage as KOing as there is with health. This is because you can die at any health, it very characters dependent, and its hard to make a clear distinction between who is winning based on damage alone. If the meta was changed to use Sudden Death, you'd see camping strategies evaporate as players would have to weight the risk of playing in a Sudden Death and there are far few safe options in this Smash.

 

[Doval]

The hazards and the tilting aren't the problem. The camping is. Now, I thought most tournaments will penalize people for circle camping, is that incorrect?

Even if they do, rules need to be discrete and enforceable. I think in the case of Pilotwings the line between "playing smart" and "circle camping" is very narrow and fuzzy.

I don't see the camping problem since both players can use it and there are options for doing it on both sides.

At any given moment only one player has the option to camp. The one that's behind in % can't camp since he'll lose by timeout. Getting the lead back is harder for the player that's already behind or the player in the lead wouldn't be camping.

 

[Pyr]

I don't see the camping problem since both players can use it and there are options for doing it on both sides. The red plan has enough room to drop in from multiple angles and attack in different ways, one of which is great for any character with multiple jumps. There is a clear strategy to it.

Banning a stage because "I don't like that game play," is not enough. You may have a point with the Yellow plane, but not the red one. The are enough ways to get it and in order to succeed, both players have to read what the other will do. It creates a new dynamic and allows for more interesting counter picks.

One thing to keep in mind is that the stalling you see in the meta now is a result of dealing with time outs. Smash Brothers, unlike other fighting games, does not use health as a measure for victory in any game mode save for the one that uses traditional health, Stamina. There isn't a clear correlation to damage as KOing as there is with health. This is because you can die at any health, it very characters dependent, and its hard to make a clear distinction between who is winning based on damage alone. If the meta was changed to use Sudden Death, you'd see camping strategies evaporate as players would have to weight the risk of playing in a Sudden Death and there are far few safe options in this Smash.

Ya... Not all 50+ characters are able to camp on this stage. Hell, not all 50+ can reach the bottom of the Yellow plane. So, no. Not both players can circle camp on this stage.

It's not about liking that game play. It's about making the game unwinnable if you fall behind by even 1%, even in cases where "both players can do it." Both players being able to do something is a horrific justification, especially when you don't bother to establish any context what-so-ever, like you have. And since when is a total of 3 ways to get in on the Red plane and 1 way to get in on the Yellow one "enough?"

And Sudden Death is the single worst way to decide a winner in Smash. As for safe options, Pilot Wings just has you PS any incoming bombs while both players camp thanks to how the bombs spawn.

It's like you found a list of buzzwords and decided to try and make a post with them.

 

[SmashChu]

At any given moment only one player has the option to camp. The one that's behind in % can't camp since he'll lose by timeout. Getting the lead back is harder for the player that's already behind or the player in the lead wouldn't be camping.

See the third paragraph. Players are encouraged to camp because torunaments change the rules of the game (Smash always sends you to Sudden Death if lives/stock/coins are the same).

Ya... Not all 50+ characters are able to camp on this stage. Hell, not all 50+ can reach the bottom of the Yellow plane. So, no. Not both players can circle camp on this stage.

It's not about liking that game play. It's about making the game unwinnable if you fall behind by even 1%, even in cases where "both players can do it." Both players being able to do something is a horrific justification, especially when you don't bother to establish any context what-so-ever, like you have. And since when is a total of 3 ways to get in on the Red plane and 1 way to get in on the Yellow one "enough?"

And Sudden Death is the single worst way to decide a winner in Smash. As for safe options, Pilot Wings just has you PS any incoming bombs while both players camp thanks to how the bombs spawn.

It's like you found a list of buzzwords and decided to try and make a post with them.

A big problem with your post is the contradiction you present. On one hand
"The game becomes unwinnable if someone has a percent lead."
But wait, isn't percent lead something made up for tournaments and circumvent the game itself
"Well, Sudden Death is the WORST way to win a match."
But can't both players avoid going to Sudden Death in the first place by fighting each other and having a clear winner though KOs? Wouldn't Sudden Death make camping risky and less prevalent.

You see my point now? While the yellow plan may still cause issues, Sudden Death fixes this by making camping the yellow plane a potentially bad idea. Sudden Death would also make time outs less prevalent at least by preventing players from forcing them.

 

[Pyr]

A big problem with your post is the contradiction you present. On one hand
"The game becomes unwinnable if someone has a percent lead."
But wait, isn't percent lead something made up for tournaments and circumvent the game itself
"Well, Sudden Death is the WORST way to win a match."
But can't both players avoid going to Sudden Death in the first place by fighting each other and having a clear winner though KOs? Wouldn't Sudden Death make camping risky and less prevalent.

You see my point now? While the yellow plan may still cause issues, Sudden Death fixes this by making camping the yellow plane a potentially bad idea. Sudden Death would also make time outs less prevalent at least by preventing players from forcing them.

If the only way to make this stage legal is to allow the single worst way of breaking a stock tie on timeout, then I must say I cannot see your point because you, simply put, don't have a valid one.

 

[SmashChu]

If the only way to make this stage legal is to allow the single worst way of breaking a stock tie on timeout, then I must say I cannot see your point because you, simply put, don't have a valid one.

The point is that Sudden Death prevents camping in general. If you complained about people camping, you have to also consider the community caused it by allowing it to happen. Pilotwing is simply a good example of this because you can camp the stage better than say, Battlefield.

 

[Pyr]

The point is that Sudden Death prevents camping in general. If you complained about people camping, you have to also consider the community caused it by allowing it to happen. Pilotwing is simply a good example of this because you can camp the stage better than say, Battlefield.

Like I said, you don't have a point here. Deciding winner on Sudden Death isn't a showing of any form of skill past "can I powershield a bomb that happens to spawn near me." It's a horrible way to decide a winner. Pilotwings is only a good example in showing the cases where people who want to discuss it when they don't understand how the game works or why.

There is the concept of camping, and then the concept with circle camping. You don't understand either. The camping that Pilotwings provides allows the player who gets the first hit in to win either by time out, or by forcing a situation that is universally advantageous for them simply because of the stage's layout. Sudden Death doesn't change that fact, and, even if it did, having a player take advantage of the stage layout turns the optimal strategy for the other person into "wait for sudden death." Sudden Death makes the issue WORSE because every pilot wings game would go to time simply because the advantage the stage gives is so great. And the Yellow plane completely removes player interaction due to the fact that you can't drop from the wing itself. Damage over time would drop to near 0 while it's in that phase. I say near 0 because someone will approach at times, causing them to get hit because the position is just that good.

So, in summary, Sudden death makes the problem worse for PilotWings, where the initial problems are SO BAD that it is unquestionably ban worthy. First hit wins the game.

 

[Buffoon]

While the yellow plane may still cause issues, Sudden Death fixes this by making camping the yellow plane a potentially bad idea. Sudden Death would also make time outs less prevalent at least by preventing players from forcing them.

I'm PRETTY positive that most Sudden Deaths on Pilotwings wouldn't last long enough for the yellow plane to show up.

From my observations, bob-ombs in SD take around 20 seconds to start dropping; the yellow plane doesn't appear for about 45 seconds, I'm very doubtful that many people could survive 25 seconds of random bob-omb dropping and make it to the underside of the yellow plane once the chance arrives. If people were able to survive long enough to make it under the plane, there's still the likely chance of them getting a bob-omb dropped on their faces for all their trouble.

If the main problem stems from the bottom "platforms" of the yellow, why not limit them somehow? Why not enforce a timer/limit of how long someone can access the platform?

 

[Malex]

Actually, using sudden death as tie-breaker would cause the loser to turtle harder in the end, because of a deus ex machina waiting at the end of the game.

Example:

% lead wins: The advantage is in the leader, who can bide his time in the advantageous position and force the loser to approach.

Sudden Death: The advantage is in the loser, who can stall the time in the advantageous position and force the leader MUST secure the kill or be faced with the terrible situation of sudden death.


However, the problem comes back when a character gets a stock lead.

 

[Pyr]

If the main problem stems from the bottom "platforms" of the yellow, why not limit them somehow? Why not enforce a timer/limit of how long someone can access the platform?

Because the Red plane has it's own set of issues. If you have to set an outside limit to make a stage legal, then you have to also question "Is it worth having this stage as a pick compared to any other stage?" I believe the answer is no for this one.

That, and I know for a fact that no TO is going to stand by every match on this stage and have a stopwatch. Even then, the optimal strategy would be "stay here for time - 1 second, reach the main platform, then go back to the other one." Solution would be to basically ban access to those areas, but then Red plane still exists. To fix that, we'd have to do the same for the second set of wings... So 2-3 different rules to pick a single stage? A stage that would never be a starter in the first place?

I think it's clear that the cost in clarity and other various costs do not justify the benefit of having a stage like this.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We actually had a tournament here that had Pilotwings, Woolly World, Big Battlefield, and some fourth stage I don't think anyone actually picked legal (might have been Luigi's Mansion). Pilotwings actually did get picked, and it was really bad every time. The only good thing about it was that I was able to personally abuse Pilotwings to win a game in a cheesy way. It was the only time in my history as a smash player that I've played a competitive game on a stage and said immediately afterwards "this stage should definitely be banned". I think the main reason we only had one local with 17 legal stages was because after that one tournament everyone agreed that if nothing else changed Pilotwings definitely had to be banned.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

We actually had a tournament here that had Pilotwings, Woolly World, Big Battlefield, and some fourth stage I don't think anyone actually picked legal (might have been Luigi's Mansion). Pilotwings actually did get picked, and it was really bad every time. The only good thing about it was that I was able to personally abuse Pilotwings to win a game in a cheesy way. It was the only time in my history as a smash player that I've played a competitive game on a stage and said immediately afterwards "this stage should definitely be banned". I think the main reason we only had one local with 17 legal stages was because after that one tournament everyone agreed that if nothing else changed Pilotwings definitely had to be banned.

I'd be terrified trying to aim at the pontoons with Launch Star, but I suppose Rosalina's double jump is big enough to not require it.

 

[MintChipper]

Last night i had a dream that bees spawned on Pilotwings and woke up going "BANNED!"

 

[DavemanCozy]

Real talk, I would rather play in Battlefield as Little Mac than do Pilotwings