Having Trouble

[DMan64]

I would describe my self as a proficient enough Corrin main(with Lucina and Robin as secondaries), but I've been at a snagerecently and I just don't feel like I improving much. Perhaps it's because I've not been able to play for a bit since I've been busy, but anytime I play I just feel off. I feel like it may have to do with my neutral game, since my punish game and trapping game are my strongest points in my opinion. I've also been having trouble with the Cloud, Marth, and Sheik Match-ups, I know those are naturally in their favor to some degree, but I just can't figure out what I'm supposed to do. If anyone has advice that would be much appreciated and hopefully it can help others who've hit a similar spot like I have.

 

[eggsplosiveguy]

Well, the most obvious answer and perhaps the better one is this. Play more people to practice. I don´t know if you have access to a local scene, but even if you don´t, online practice is still good (Not talking about For Glory, but rather about Anther´s Ladder, its amazing). You say your neutral is what you have problems with, and that can´t be solved without playing with other people.

Another thing you could do is look at your matches and see what gets you punished, as well as some bad habits, for you to work on them.

Regarding your bad MU´s, lets see if this advice helps in any way (hope so):

• Cloud: Cloud´s weakness is obvious, yet difficult to exploit against a good cloud. That is of course, his recovery. I suggest creating some sort of "flowchart" to edgeguarding cloud with your main. Knowing what to do against him offstage makes doing it easier. Look at every high level tournament match against Cloud, and you´ll see what I mean. It doesn´t matter if its ZeRo or Nairo, they have a certain way of limiting cloud´s options while recovering and getting the kill thanks to it.
• Marth: Marth has a purpose in a match: Creating a wall and punishing their opponents when they try to go through it. So, your best bet against Marth is either baiting him to do an unsafe uption or forcing him to approach you, and punish it. However, that´s not that easy, but Marth main´s are humans, and they make mistakes. Also, Marth is notably weak when above someone, as he has no real option to land (dair can be a mix up, but its very punishable, plus comes out slow).
• Sheik: Sheik has arguably the best neutral of the cast, and one of the best recoveries too, as well as a very annoying projectile. However, she has trouble killing and is a fastfaller, so can be comboed rather easy. Plus, she´s really light. This usually can put sheiks in a very bad situation: Having their opponent at high percent with tons of rage and without a real kill setups. This is why characters like DK and Bowser give sheik tons of trouble: they need few openings to kill sheik and sheik, on the other hand, needs a lot of openings to kill them. With good DI/recovery, and not panicking in a disadvantage state, you can live really long against sheik, which can increase your success rate against her.

Of course the advice I gave you is really basic, but I can´t give you real advice as your mains aren´t my mains. Even so, remembering the fundamentals of how to beat a character can help.

 

[DMan64]

eggsplosiveguy , hey anything helps, I found that one of my main problems is that I haven't been tomahawking as much as I should, I also found I have a bad habit of not grabbing as much as I should.
Part of it may be that Corrin doesn't get much off of her grabs, but even then it gives her what she needs, which is to put her opponents in a bad situation.

• As for my matches against said characters, I've tried to take a more footsie approach against Cloud and made it my primary objective to get him in the air. I've also been practicing with my Lucina and I've been getting decent results
• As for Marth, I just switch over to Lucina for that since I do better at that match with her.
• Sheik I still have trouble with, though I've been taking a similar approach to Cloud and that seems to be working better.

As for my access to tournaments or AL, I'm not able to go to tournaments as of right now since I'm rather busy, and by extension I've not been able to go online that much. All things considered though, I think my primary weakness is that, at least with Corrin, I need to work on tomahawks and grabbing more often.

 

[eggsplosiveguy]

eggsplosiveguy , hey anything helps, I found that one of my main problems is that I haven't been tomahawking as much as I should, I also found I have a bad habit of not grabbing as much as I should.
Part of it may be that Corrin doesn't get much off of her grabs, but even then it gives her what she needs, which is to put her opponents in a bad situation.

• As for my matches against said characters, I've tried to take a more footsie approach against Cloud and made it my primary objective to get him in the air. I've also been practicing with my Lucina and I've been getting decent results
• As for Marth, I just switch over to Lucina for that since I do better at that match with her.
• Sheik I still have trouble with, though I've been taking a similar approach to Cloud and that seems to be working better.

As for my access to tournaments or AL, I'm not able to go to tournaments as of right now since I'm rather busy, and by extension I've not been able to go online that much. All things considered though, I think my primary weakness is that, at least with Corrin, I need to work on tomahawks and grabbing more often.

Well, its nice that you´ve found some of your problems. I´ll agree, even if your character doesn´t get much out of grabs, you gotta keep your opponents honest and make them remember shielding is not always safe. Plus, grabs give stage control and (in Corrin´s case) can kill, so they are far from useless.

Being grounded against Cloud/Sheik is an interesting approach, but it looks good. Realistically speaking, you´ll almost never beat sheik or cloud in the air, and defensive options while grounded are better than while in the air. I guess that´s what makes sheik and cloud so good: they force you to take a defensive option in neutral, making it easier to win it.

One question though. Doesn´t Corrin´s fsmash beat cloud´s aerials? I mean, I´m not suggesting you to spam fsmash but isn´t that something really good to contest cloud in the air? I mean, it does look like Corrin can do that tbh.

 

[DMan64]

One question though. Doesn´t Corrin´s fsmash beat cloud´s aerials? I mean, I´m not suggesting you to spam fsmash but isn´t that something really good to contest cloud in the air? I mean, it does look like Corrin can do that tbh.

Typically yes, but since Corrin's arm has a hurtbox during it, I usually wait until Cloud is either really close to the ground, or if there is a platform above, go for up tilt given it's great platform coverage. Usually what I do instead is get Cloud in the air then go to where I think he will land, and pin the ground. From their I wait to see what he does. If he tires to land away and throw out an attack, I'll wait to strike him then. If he's coming at me, I'll jump or kick to avoid the attack or create an opening. If he's directly above me, I kick away since I don't want to challenge any of his aerials and risk getting into a bad situation.(Mind you this tactic works best on more flat stages, but can be useful on BF and LC as well. Other times I'll use neutral special instead because that can confirm into tipper pin or fsmash at higher percents and can KO.

 

[eggsplosiveguy]

Typically yes, but since Corrin's arm has a hurtbox during it, I usually wait until Cloud is either really close to the ground, or if there is a platform above, go for up tilt given it's great platform coverage. Usually what I do instead is get Cloud in the air then go to where I think he will land, and pin the ground. From their I wait to see what he does. If he tires to land away and throw out an attack, I'll wait to strike him then. If he's coming at me, I'll jump or kick to avoid the attack or create an opening. If he's directly above me, I kick away since I don't want to challenge any of his aerials and risk getting into a bad situation.(Mind you this tactic works best on more flat stages, but can be useful on BF and LC as well. Other times I'll use neutral special instead because that can confirm into tipper pin or fsmash at higher percents and can KO.

I do something similar against clouds. Since most clouds really like to short hop into an aerial or simply for moving, I use eggs to catch their jumps and possibly get a conversion (egg has a lot of potential combo/kill confirms). Even if I dont hit eggs, I condition clouds into shielding, where I do either of two things. I grab (normal grab or command grab, depending of the situation) or I go for shield pressure with down tilt, Fair, or even dair if I feel like its worth it.

Also,it seems like cloud mains don´t know Yoshi can beat their dair (Up smash, egg throw, fair, even up air can trade if well timed) are some things I can do. I have problems against Cloud tho, mainly because his hitboxes are generally better than my own, and I like to use tons of attacks to pressure my opponent, something I can´t do againt him.

 

[DMan64]

Also,it seems like cloud mains don´t know Yoshi can beat their dair (Up smash, egg throw, fair, even up air can trade if well timed) are some things I can do. I have problems against Cloud tho, mainly because his hitboxes are generally better than my own, and I like to use tons of attacks to pressure my opponent, something I can´t do againt him.

It doesn't help that Yoshi's physical attacks lack range. Perhaps a good solution would be to use a bait and punish tactic. Given that Cloud wants you to do something like that, maybe you could fake the player out by going for more empty hops or something of the like. I don't really have much Yoshi experience so I can't tell if that would work well, but that's what I'd try to do. If that doesn't work, just make it your objective to play like a swordsman almost, not really throwing out many attacks, but enough to give them the idea that they shouldn't come close. If not I'd say just watch Ally's set against ZeRo(I believe it was Genesis 4, when he pulled out Cloud against Mario) perhaps you could apply that to your use of Yoshi, given that both Yoshi and Mario share similar ideas.

 

[eggsplosiveguy]

It doesn't help that Yoshi's physical attacks lack range. Perhaps a good solution would be to use a bait and punish tactic. Given that Cloud wants you to do something like that, maybe you could fake the player out by going for more empty hops or something of the like. I don't really have much Yoshi experience so I can't tell if that would work well, but that's what I'd try to do. If that doesn't work, just make it your objective to play like a swordsman almost, not really throwing out many attacks, but enough to give them the idea that they shouldn't come close. If not I'd say just watch Ally's set against ZeRo(I believe it was Genesis 4, when he pulled out Cloud against Mario) perhaps you could apply that to your use of Yoshi, given that both Yoshi and Mario share similar ideas.

That´s why Cloud sucks for Yoshi. In my opinion, the moment when you have to approach a MU in a way where you need to force your opponent to make a mistake because you cannot contest their options, its a bad MU.

I´ve never tought of looking at what Ally does like you said. Its really interesting, and it seems smart. I guess that, in a lack of top level Yoshi players, looking at how Ally and other Mario´s approach MUs like cloud and Marth. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Nah]

One other thing you can do is to post videos of your replays here. The video thread is probably the best place to do it, but eh whatever

looking at your replays yuorself isn't bad bad idea, but it doesn't hurt to hav eother ppl look at them too